Vic Mignogna

[Fionordequester]

Testimonies from real life sexual assault victims:

Sophie Scruggs:
"People in any relationship with a potentially threatening or abusive personality act differently, especially if the person they are afraid of is powerful. I was sexually harassed in school and very scared to talk about it and was "friends" with the person to avoid trouble."

[Rose_City_Madman_in_a_Box]
"I had breakfast with my assailant (a friend) THE MORNING AFTER I was assaulted. Survivors do all kinds of things to rationalize their experience and make it go away. That's part of a toxic culture."

茶ん手楽
"I wrote my foster uncle while he sat in prison, after he'd raped and molested me for years, because I "missed him." How do you think so many children and adults being abused can walk around with their abuser undetected?

This is real life. I don't see a guilty woman [in Monica Rial's photographs with Vic Mignogna], I see a woman who is just like any other woman or man who has been abused and doesn't know what to do. The interactions will be sincere. Sometimes you don't or can't accept/believe what they did so you push it away, just "dealing" with it, because just like you guys are coming after her because she spoke up. (And FUNimation did an investigation, the details of which are none of our business).

Look, I was a HUGE Vic fan too. A HUGE ONE. It hurt when I heard all this. But once I saw what'd happened and my shell was torn away, I was able to see what I didn't before. I stand by Monica. I feel bad for her and all the others who were hurt by this. I grieved, he was someone I leaned on when I was hurting. Other fans have grieved. But do NOT go attacking the victims and trying to discredit their stories just because they "got their way."

Any type of sex abuse is about control. & lots of people like control. He lost the control when everyone spoke out. That is one reason why y'all are mad, because you couldn't silence her or anyone and make it go your way."

[The Patrolman]

I really wanna weigh in my thoughts on the whole situation but I'm afraid what I say would come off as victim blaming which wouldn't be my attention. I also don't wanna get banned like Doctor (I'm gonna miss that guy)

[Fionordequester]

I really wanna weigh in my thoughts on the whole situation but I'm afraid what I say would come off as victim blaming which wouldn't be my attention. I also don't wanna get banned like Doctor (I'm gonna miss that guy)

You can PM me, if you think it'd help. I'm blunt, and don't mince words...but I'm never going to attack you as a person.

[The Patrolman]

I really wanna weigh in my thoughts on the whole situation but I'm afraid what I say would come off as victim blaming which wouldn't be my attention. I also don't wanna get banned like Doctor (I'm gonna miss that guy)

You can PM me, if you think it'd help. I'm blunt, and I don't mince words...but I'm never going to attack you as a person.

How do I do that?

[Fionordequester]

How do I do that?

Well, if you look in the upper-right corner of your screen, there should be an envelope looking thing. Click on that, then go to "Private Messages > Compose Message", and write everything out as you wish. You can even save a draft, if you decide you're not up for typing everything at once.

[Kunzait_83]

On the contrary...unlike Vic Mignogna, most of the evidence leaned towards him being innocent of that. In fact, we have a LITERAL quote, in HARD evidence, that at least one of the guys trying to sue him was doing so only so he could get rich off him. His son's "misery" was nothing but a meal ticket to "the good life"....

If there’s anything that can justify bringing MJ into this conversation (at least for me), it’s that I can understand where the I Stand with Vic crowd is coming from. Whenever I heard Vic in the past there was something about him that made me uncomfortable, so maybe I’m a little biased in believing the allegations against him are true. I watched Leaving Neverland and felt so conflicted afterward because I don’t think (or want to believe) Michael did anything bad to children, but I have to question why two men and their families would go along with the narrative that he did when, to paraphrase Oprah, “they are gonna get it.” It is hard to accept that people who bring so many others joy (Michael more so than Vic obviously) are bad people in real life.

I'm old enough to clearly remember when the original Jodran Chandler case (MJ's first accuser) first made the news in '93, and EVERY conceivable detail surrounding it was national headlines: including that tape recording of his father blatantly admitting that this was all about the money to him. Which was even further solidified when the Chandler family accepted a 20 million dollar settlement from Jackson instead of pressing criminal charges.

Now a LOT of doubts still clung in the air about Jackson himself. His odd public behavior, his preoccupation with children, etc. However, when that Evan Chandler tape first came to light and the boy's family eagerly slurped up that settlement, literally EVERYONE (including myself at the time) had the exact same thoughts: "If your small kid was sexually molested by someone, I don't give a flying fuck HOW rich or famous the guy is, you'd press charges."

Here's the thing though: Jordan Chandler was able to PERFECTLY describe for police numerous distinctive Vitiligo markings on Jackson's penis. This was also national news at the time, and ALSO clung to the numerous suspicions about Jackson.

Fast forward past a decade of increasingly warped, bizarre public behavior and a constant parade of children as his public hangers on, and police raid his Neverland Ranch home after another round of accusations... and apart from a seemingly constant array of secret rooms and cubbyholes in the guy's mansion, they also came across numerous books of very explicit "child erotica" in several of his bedroom drawers.

The very same bedrooms he was sharing with numerous children throughout the years.

One of the biggest key factors about how a great many serial pedophiles operate is using various forms of pornography to "groom" their victims: by showing them porn constantly (both normal and child porn) they help to "normalize" it psychologically, to put their victims at ease and make them more compliant.

But of course, Wade Robson, one of the two men at the heart of the current Leaving Neverland documentary, testified in the 2005 trial on Jackson's behalf, and was convincing enough in denying any sort of wrongdoing on Jackson's part when he was a child staying for several years at Neverland that he helped leave enough reasonable doubt for the jury to vote Not Guilty.

Now lets quickly review here: You have a guy (Jackson) with a VERY traumatic childhood background full of abuse (not ALL child predators have abuse in their background, but some certainly do, and it can be a potential factor). One which, by his own admission, lead to an adult life pre-occupied with children and notions of "childhood innocence".

He's also one of the richest and most famous men on the planet, so while that certainly makes him a big, fat, juicy target for media vultures and opportunists (as that Evan Chandler tape makes pretty clear), it ALSO means that he's got the money and power to create literally the world's BIGGEST, most robust honeypot for attracting potential victims, and the pull (both financial and social: he literally has BILLIONS of adoring fans across the planet) to fight back more than formidably against any blowback or evidence that turns up against him.

Add to that, the first (of multiple) accusers being able to perfectly identify distinguishing marks on his penis, AND child erotica found by authorities littering his bedroom?

Even prior to Leaving Neverland, MOST people (including myself) tended to at a bare, BARE minimum maintain "Yeah, if it turned out he actually DID molest kids, it'd be the LEAST surprising thing in the world at this point."

But of course, the two strongest bits of evidence that count-balanced that: the Evan Chandler tape, and Wade Robson's 2005 testimony. That of course along with the fact that you had SO many kids stay at Neverland Ranch throughout the decades (literally COUNTLESS children): wouldn't there be A) WAY more accusers and B) WAY more angry parents willing to look past the money and fame in pursuit of justice?

I myself briefly mentioned MJ in one of my posts in this very thread here awhile back, where I said:

(And before someone busts out the ever-popular go-to "What about Michael Jackson?" chestnut: there's still to this day a LOT of conflicting evidence on him pointing EITHER WAY. That's SUCH a unique and one-of-a-kind lightning-in-a-bottle clusterfuck of a trainwreck scenario that none of us in the general public will likely EVER truly know for 100% certainty exactly what was what with him - though there's more than PLENTY of evidence there that's certainly NOT even remotely favorable towards him - and there's a LOT of blame to go around for that on a vast number of different parties. Rest assured though, cases like MJ's are FAR from the norm in these kinds of matters.)

And yeah, what I said here is indeed true: MJ is a once-in-a-lifetime example of fame, wealth, celebrity, childhood abuse, personal trauma, and a personality cult of THAT startling magnitude all clustered together into the broiling stew that is North American society and celebrity culture.

BUT. This was all PRE-Leaving Neverland.

Now Leaving Neverland is a factor here: and I VERY MUCH recommend seeing it. Because given all the MOUNTAINS of evidence (more than 20/30 years worth) from before, with THIS new information that's now out there?

It is almost overwhelmingly probable that Michael Jackson was a serial child sex abuser, and anyone who sincerely doubts it at this point is either 1) willfully oblivious about sex predators in a very general sense or 2) part of Jackson's (frighteningly MASSIVE) personality cult.

Because one of the key things that Leaving Neverland offers (apart from a VERY convincing explanation for why Wade Robson originally lied under oath in his 2005 testimony) is the revelation that almost EVERY parent/adult family members of the children who stayed at Neverland WERE INDEED besieged by tons and tons and tons and TONS of luxury, glamour, money, and other personal favors (Jackson bought one of the accusers' family a fucking HOUSE, and a very luxurious one in a nice/expensive part of California).

I'm someone for whom the idea that "If your own child were sexually abused by someone, I don't care if its Michael Jackson or the fucking Pope: NO amount of money would be enough to buy my culpability." was JUST convincing enough to lend me SOME shred of reasonable doubt, even in the face of the absolutely, startlingly RIDICULOUS amounts of evidence against Jackson. But after Leaving Neverland? Here's the almost impossible to dismiss conclusions to be drawn:

1) Yes, Michael Jackson was indeed very, VERY likely a sick, twisted human being who was indeed a pedophile and serial child sex abuser.

And 2) Yes, the parents of these kids were by and large across the board INCREDIBLY vile, greedy vultures who placed feeding at the trough of Jackson's fame, glamour, and obscene financial wealth above the personal safety of their own kids.

BOTH of these things are (very, very likely) true, and one DOES NOT invalidate the other. This isn't a fucking comic book of "good versus evil", where one side is purely saint-like and the other is utter slime.

Given all of the important/relevant information, Jordan Chandler (along with god knows how many other kids, including the subsequent accusers) was almost CERTAINLY abused by Jackson, AND at the same time his father (like a vast swath of the other Neverland kids' parents) was a big enough piece of shit scumbag that he saw his own 13 year old son's molestation as a money-making opportunity and pounced upon it gleefully and with little regard for the gravity and severity of his own son's abuse. The real world is indeed just THAT sick and twisted of a place, and if you doubt that for even a second, then you clearly haven't been paying much attention to world events throughout the years.

When you take in both ALL the mountains of evidence against Jackson as well as the documented bizarre public behavior (especially around kids), and combine it with the context and the pattern of grooming (for not just the kids, but the parents as well) that Leaving Neverland puts forth, your left with the almost impossible to deny conclusion that what the parents of these kids were effectively doing, while being in THOROUGH willful self-denial of it (as fat stacks of cash, houses, luxurious all-expenses-paid vacations, the chance to meet tons of other celebrities, and career opportunities for your kids will do for many people - Wade Robson went on to become a VERY notable dance choreographer for the likes of N'Sync and Brittany Spears in their early-2000s heyday) was more or less prostituting their kids to Jackson as a warped kind of "child escort service".

And Jackson had both the obscene wealth as well as the power and public goodwill to basically insulate himself enough to continually get away with it and buy his way out of any trouble it might bring throughout his entire adult life up till his death in 2009. Because this is America, and if American history should've taught us anything about this country, its that there are VERY few crimes - even of the utmost vile scumfuckery - that are 100% impossible to buy one's way out of.

Again, is this all something we're EVER going to know with 100% ABSOLUTE certainty? Of course not: but as has been the recurring theme of this whole godforsaken thread now, at a certain point there is WAY too much smoke to be doubtful of ANY fire whatsoever, and there comes a certain threshold where having doubts just becomes incredibly stubborn, willful obtuseness, to a degree that is useful ONLY for letting sex predators continue to get away with it and abuse more victims over time.

To bring all this Michael Jackson talk right back around to Vic Mignogna (never, ever in my life did I ever think I'd be linking THESE TWO names together in the same breadth under ANY context whatsoever): personality cults, fame (of both the more grandiose and sub-mediocre kind), and childhood nostalgia & goodwill are INCREDIBLY powerful inoculations for a LOT of people out there.

Again, not to pull the age card so much on here, but I'm old enough to where I actually LIVED THROUGH Jackson's Thriller and Bad-era heyday. Music-wise, I grew up about as punk rock-loving and as pop-adverse a kid as you could conceivably get... and even I was FAR from immune to Jackson's INSANE talent and charisma during the 80s.

I wore out my share of VHS copies of both Moonwalker and The Making of Thriller, I actually saw Captain EO at Epcot Center back in '88, I played the living FUCK out of Jackson's two Sega Moonwalker video games (hell, I STILL love those games), and hell I even had my grandmother take an old white glove and sew a bunch of shiny silver beads into it when I was all of 4 years old. The first autobiography I ever read cover-to-cover was Jackson's '88 Moonwalk.

And I was a kid who otherwise mostly listened to bands like Black Flag, Bad Brains, and Fugazi, while constantly ripping on my 12 year old cousins' love for New Kids on the Block: mainstream pop was generally NOT my realm largely, even as a small, small kid. THAT'S how insanely POWERFUL of a grip Michael Jackson had on the entire fucking planet back during the peak of his powers in the 1980s. I'll see ANY of your collective childhood adoration for the Dragon Ball Z FUNimation dub and EASILY match it against my own childhood love for Michael Jackson any and EVERY day of the fucking week a thousand times over. And even BEFORE Leaving Neverland, I was still "Eh... would be the LEAST surprising revelation ever if it turned out he DID do it."

The point being however: personal bias due to childhood nostalgia/goodwill is an UNBELIEVABLY flimsy and ridiculously silly, stupid counterbalance to have against not just sound critical thinking, but also just plain common fucking sense. ESPECIALLY in actually life-and-death serious cases like sexual assault in which this "b-b-but he meant SO MUCH to me when I was 7..." nonsense should simply NOT fucking apply in the absolute slightest (unless you're one of his actual victims who he groomed and indoctrinated for years starting from a stupidly young and emotionally/psychologically vulnerable age by way of manipulatively using that very same immense public love and fondness for him).

My loving Moonwalker as a kid, as is your loving FUNimation's Broly as a kid, is completely and utterly irrelevant compared to what these people (and these guys are ultimately just that: they're just flesh and blood humans like any one of us) ultimately have likely done, and moreover compared to the INCREDIBLE amounts of harm they've done to their victims. The VICTIMS more than anything else are the ONLY thing that ultimately matters here.

And I'm sorry, but like with most of MJ's diehard fans (including those who run what are effectively online propaganda like the Michael Jackson Innocent Project), I just have a very, very, VERY strong suspicion that there is a completely irrational emotional bias that is slanting a ton of people's perspectives on these sorts of matters. And that irrational emotional bias is borne out of the simple fact that people like MJ/Mignogna had a POWERFUL impact on certain people when they were very little (as the ultimate likely explanation for the reasons WHY Wade Robson ultimately lied under oath and protected MJ back in 2005 can clearly attest).

And its all the more ridiculous because this thread ISN'T about a person who looms as monolithically larger-than-life over the ENTIRE global culture, like Michael Jackson: we're talking, once again, about a sub-basement level non-celebrity whose name ONLY means something to what, at most maybe a couple thousand or so con-goers scattered throughout the country or something?

I mean, there are STILL people in this thread on the past couple of pages who are genuinely putting forth the idea that "Vic probably has TONS of enemies and haters out there who want to go after him for his celebrity!" That excuse WAS at least SOMEWHAT plausible for motherfucking Michael Jackson (who's scale of sheer celebrity is simply IMPOSSIBLE to weigh thoroughly: he's literally in the same breath as Elvis and The Beatles), at least for a little while: but Vic "Literally WHO?!" Mignogna? Vic "I voiced a Japanese cartoon badguy, poorly, three or four times" Mignogna?

To have one's head buried THIS far into the "see no evil/hear no evil" sands for THIS fucking inconsequential nobody? Christ literally ANYONE can apparently have a personality cult these days (as evidenced by the current U.S. president, whom literally almost NOBODY gave much of a flying fuck about 6 or 7 years ago, and yet was STILL a MASSIVELY bigger celebrity than Vic).

My childhood love and affection for Michael Jackson (his artistic work primarily and, to a lesser degree, his public persona anyway) means exactly SHIT to me in light of who he (more than overwhelmingly likely) was as a person and what he (again, overwhelmingly likely) did to all these kids. If a child of the 80s like myself can totally set aside what Michael fucking Jackson meant to both music and culture, as someone who lived through the seismic brunt of his initial impact on both, and be totally real and up front about what the IMMENSELY PROBABLE reality with him more than likely is... then "Random McNobody" voice actor guy should be less than an afterthought for most sane human beings to come to grips with.

Unfortunately, we're not living in a sane world. As should be readily apparent.

Put it this way: pretend that either Michael Jackson or Vic Mignogna WEREN'T the public figures that they were. Pretend that MJ was just some random rich person, and Mignogna just some dude. If you STILL had public access to the information about both of their cases; would you be TRULY arriving at the SAME "on the fence" conclusions?

Pretend for a moment that Michael Jackson is just some random anonymous billionaire who meant NOTHING to you growing up and who you didn't know of from a hole in the wall otherwise, and that he had still been publicly accused anywhere from 2 to 4 times of child molestation. That he himself had a history of child abuse in his own background. That one of his accusers could and did accurately and pinpointedly identify distinct markings on his genitals for the police.

That for DECADES he had THRONGS of small children, total and complete strangers, parade throughout his home and sleep in the same bed as him. That he wrote these kids actual love letters (which is legally documented evidence against him) and had pretend marriage ceremonies with them (one of the kids producing the VERY expensive wedding ring from it).

That police uncovered child pornography in his home (rendered under JUUUST enough of a pretense of "artistic erotica" to make it NOT illegal), kept in the same bedrooms as the children he slept with. And that while one accuser's dad was caught on tape admitting that he was only interested in getting money from the guy, it is also known that Jackson had been giving money, expensive gifts, homes, and career opportunities to both the children and their parents/families.

Take out ALL of the bullshit emotional baggage and "What this guy represented meant so much to me when I was little" and whatnot. Wipe away Thriller, wipe away Bad, wipe away the Moonwalk, wipe away the white glove and the trilby, wipe away the killer Billie Jean bassline, wipe away Motown 25, wipe away The Jackson 5, wipe away Ben, ABC, I Wan't You Back. Wipe away Rock With You, Don't Stop Till you Get Enough, Off the Wall, Beat It, Human Nature, Man in the Mirror, Smooth Criminal, Another Part of Me, The Way You Make Me Feel, Wanna be Startin' Something, Black or White, Scream. Wipe away Heal the World and all the schmaltzy sentiment and the charities etc.

Hell, even set aside (if at all possible, depending on who you are) what an IMMENSE amount of inarguable and incalculable good his artistic success alone did for race relations between African Americans and Caucasians in North America ALONE.

I know that that's a fucking LOT of SEISMICALLY ubiquitous cultural crap to set aside. But nonetheless, throw out ALL of it into a temporary emotional incinerator for a second. JUST FOR A SECOND here. Because literally ALL of that, as monumentally massive and seemingly impossible to ignore as it definitely is, is totally and completely IRRELEVANT as to the MUCH more pressingly important question of "Did this guy sexually abuse children or not?"

Toss all of that emotional baggage aside, look over at the raw facts of the matter, and just ask yourself this one simple and honest question: what is the likelihood that you'd be ANYWHERE REMOTELY NEAR as forgiving of this guy and giving him so much as a SHRED of the same benefit of the doubt, given ALL of that cold, hard information and context about his relationship with kids when you subtract from it all the emotionally gushy fond childhood sentimental fondness for his music, his artistic work, and his cultural stature?

The same exact thing goes for Mignogna. Pretend he's even MORE of a nobody than Jackson (which to be fair, he is indeed VERY MUCH a complete nobody; both next to Jackson, and just broadly in general practically): Mignogna didn't voice some dumb cartoon character you grew up loving, he isn't a part of some corporate entity (FUNimation) that you for some twisted reason look up to and have some warped emotional, deeply-held clinginess toward.

Pretend Mignogna is someone who not only WASN'T a part of all that, but also WASN'T someone who you thought you "knew" from meeting and interacting with him a bunch of times at conventions, fan events, meet & greets, and that he doesn't have a fangirl cult and doesn't have a social media presence as a Z-tier celebrity.

Wipe away ALL of your history of personal emotional bias in wanting to think that this guy is saintly and awesome. Which frankly ought to be BOUNDLESSLY more of an easy task to do with THIS random schmuck than it should be to do with a guy of, once again, Michael Jackson's raw, towering cultural stature.

(And if you're someone who is even close to THAT big into FUNimation that you'd put some Random McNobody voice actor of theirs within anything even VAGUELY approaching the same solar system of headspace as, yet again, MICHAEL FUCKING JACKSON... please be advised to DEEPLY consider the possibility you're putting this total and absolute nothing of an anime licensing/dubbing company on INSANELY too high of a mental/emotional pedestal than is even remotely warranted, even by the already-stupid standards of completely bullshit Celebrity Worship Culture)

Would you look at some regular, random dude, who had COUNTLESS dozens and dozens and dozens of different, COMPLETELY unconnected accusations that he was overly gropey and handsy with women, the vast swath of whom were very-much underage girls, throughout his professional workplace (wherever that happened to be) where he'd be around a lot of young girls (maybe in this hypothetical scenario, he works at a school or something) in anything even CLOSE TO the same forgiving light?

Would you still give this dude SO much leeway and SO much benefit of the doubt if there were actual photo evidence of him being over-familiar with these girls, and if the accusations stretched back more than 25 years ago? Would one of the victims who publicly accused him being KIND OF short-fused about it REALLY sway you THAT hard and THAT starkly into thinking "Well MAYBE the guy's innocent, and its all one big conspiracy to take him down because THIS ONE PERSON among his DOZENS of accusers was kinda, slightly, mildly testy about it in her tone and tenor when she called him out"?

Again: wipe away ALL of your own personal baggage that many of you are almost UNQUESTIONABLY bringing into things here. Your growing up with FUNimation's DBZ, you loving Broly as a kid, you also getting into their dub of FMA or whatever else, you going to all these fan conventions, you getting Vic's autograph and chatting him up for a bit, and thinking he's the nicest, coolest guy ever. Throw away ALL of that COMPLETELY for just a second here. Just look at his case as if he were just some bum off the street.

Would you STILL react with the same degree of hyper-scrutiny toward the victims/accusers?

If these answer to these questions is "no", then perhaps it is then wise to ask yourself the unsettling and uncomfortable question of "How much of an unhealthy amount of emotional/psychological weight and priority am I putting onto my various fandoms for media and media figures above solidly important, life-and-death, real world concerns that impact the safety of flesh and blood human beings?"

And if the answer to these questions is still a firm and solid "yes", then alongside the same above question, at least maybe TRY to also entertain the potential possibilities that you are either DEEPLY naive and ignorant about the stark realities of sexual assault in the real day to day world, or that you might even possibly be harboring some DEEPLY seated issues about gender & sexual dynamics of your own.

[Fionordequester]

I'm someone for whom the idea that "If your own child were sexually abused by someone, I don't care if its Michael Jackson or the fucking Pope: NO amount of money would be enough to buy my culpability." was JUST convincing enough to lend me SOME shred of reasonable doubt, even in the face of the absolutely, startlingly RIDICULOUS amounts of evidence against Jackson. But after Leaving Neverland? Here's the almost impossible to dismiss conclusions to be drawn:

Huh...I've actually never heard of "Leaving Neverland" before now...

...

Crud. I'm gonna have to watch that. If it turns out out to be convincing as you say...then I guess Michael Jackson IS gonna end up on my rouge's gallery, after all.

Shame, but...oh well. God doesn't play favorites; and his example is the one I'm trying to follow.

[Kunzait_83]

First of all, Michael Jackson didn't do any of the things he was accused. He only hung out with the kids & either the kids or their families were seeking money with the various allegations. For more info, I defer to this video (https://youtu.be/9yTTEwBLfUQ). You may not like the guy presenting it because he's unapologetically brutal with presenting the facts of the situation, but he presents them clearly & backs up everything he says with a good amount of evidence. Leaving Neverland is a character assassination piece, not even the first one mind you, towards Jackson by 2 guys who used to hang out with him as kids, but one is clearly doing it for money from MJ's estate because of reasons explained in the video. Proof in that that guy stated for years on multiple occasions, both in & out of court, that he never experienced anything in terms of assault from him. Yet, suddenly, he decided he did. Coincidence, I think not.

I don't have the mental constitution at the moment to go blow by blow throughout this video (plus this isn't a Michael Jackson forum; thank god). I'm just going to quickly throw out that the guy behind this video is a dude named RazorFist, who is a very well known right-skewing Youtuber who's argued on behalf of all manner of vile Trump/MRA/GamerGate talking points plenty of times in the past. Just to give you a very clear indication of what kind of agenda and framework this guy is largely working off of.

I'm familiar with a number of his other videos, and at NO point is he ever someone who is anything REMOTELY close to "brutal with presenting facts": he's just another, typical meathead Redpill apologist doofus who makes his bones as someone who "destroys libtards with facts and logic" and all that usual crap. If you're not wise to this particular line of grift at this point (and that's all that this guy's kind of "right-wing, un-PC, anti-feminist, angry gamer Youtuber" shtick ultimately is: a grift that guys like this have been mostly just hitching their ad-revenue wagons onto, with how much of a "true believer" they are in their own bullshit being something of a varying spectrum) then you're both not paying NEAR enough attention to actually important shit, AND you're a gullible, clueless chump who can be talked into believing damn near anything.

Suffice to say, Leaving Neverland itself offers more than compelling reasons for why someone like Wade Robson would originally lie under oath on Jackson's behalf: one that not only lines up with typical patterns surrounding child sex abuse victims and their assailants, but also with who Michael Jackson was as a celebrity/public figure, and how he could EASILY use that to manipulate himself into a vulnerable, 7 year old (Robson's age at the time) kid's life like that and have a lifelong-term impact on him: especially back in the 1980s, long before all the "Wacko Jacko" shit and the initial accusations first arose, back when he was basically in the public's mind somewhere in between John Lennon and Mother Teresa.

Add all of that context along with all the decades-long known (and already plenty damning to begin with) facts about Michael Jackson's various child sex accusations, and... it doesn't paint a particularly forgiving portrait of what was (again, more than overwhelmingly likely) going on with the guy and all of those kids. Not only is it gross and despicable in the extreme, but it also acts as a writ-large case-study in ALL of our collective culture's warped, insane psychological issues surrounding rape and sexual abuse cases and who's word we ultimately, as a broader society, put the most stock in between that of victims and abusers/predators.

Its basically a LOT like this very thread, except blown up onto the whole global stage with BILLIONS of people and an accused dude who's public life actually mattered and had a real impact on culture.

[JulieYBM]

Well, fuck, guess I need to see Leaving Neverland now.

[DragonBallFan]

The problem is, they shouldn't have brought it out to twitter and the internet, this is becoming mob mentality, not to mention there have been numerous cases of people lying with evidence...

...like what? What, besides the SWAT incident, has been faked? ANN accidentally posted a misleading pic (which they have since removed, when they realize their error), and the Valerie Dave account has already been proven to be a troll account who's identity was stolen from another person...but none of those count as "lying".

What else is there?

They are lying, there are screenshots of PM's on facebook about people trying to falsely accuse Vic as well as photoshop photos to make him look like a "pedophile".

Tell me how any of this is fair? They all 'come out', on twitter, don't involve authorities, if Vic did do something, they let a dangerous person loose. If you honestly believe it's guilty until proven innocent then please stand with the person who's accusing Jamie of sexual misconduct.

[DragonBallFan]

Testimonies from real life sexual assault victims:

Sophie Scruggs:
"People in any relationship with a potentially threatening or abusive personality act differently, especially if the person they are afraid of is powerful. I was sexually harassed in school and very scared to talk about it and was "friends" with the person to avoid trouble."

[Rose_City_Madman_in_a_Box]
"I had breakfast with my assailant (a friend) THE MORNING AFTER I was assaulted. Survivors do all kinds of things to rationalize their experience and make it go away. That's part of a toxic culture."

茶ん手楽
"I wrote my foster uncle while he sat in prison, after he'd raped and molested me for years, because I "missed him." How do you think so many children and adults being abused can walk around with their abuser undetected?

This is real life. I don't see a guilty woman [in Monica Rial's photographs with Vic Mignogna], I see a woman who is just like any other woman or man who has been abused and doesn't know what to do. The interactions will be sincere. Sometimes you don't or can't accept/believe what they did so you push it away, just "dealing" with it, because just like you guys are coming after her because she spoke up. (And FUNimation did an investigation, the details of which are none of our business).

Look, I was a HUGE Vic fan too. A HUGE ONE. It hurt when I heard all this. But once I saw what'd happened and my shell was torn away, I was able to see what I didn't before. I stand by Monica. I feel bad for her and all the others who were hurt by this. I grieved, he was someone I leaned on when I was hurting. Other fans have grieved. But do NOT go attacking the victims and trying to discredit their stories just because they "got their way."

Any type of sex abuse is about control. & lots of people like control. He lost the control when everyone spoke out. That is one reason why y'all are mad, because you couldn't silence her or anyone and make it go your way."

People react differently to different situations, you have picked out specific things people have said to prove your point. It's like me taking 10 asian's and 10 african's, then get them to do a test, say the majority who pass are asian, that's like me then saying "Asians are smarter than Africans".

FUNimation did an investigation...and authorities weren't contacted, unbelievable, so it's okay to let a dangerous person loose? Plus Monica's husband is a higher up at FUNimation. If you look at Vic's story, you'll see it from his view, I don't see why he would lie, she said no, he said okay, and they went their separate ways, they were basically cheating with each other. Red flag right there.

If you believe someone based off of just a bunch of people coming out, then that's fine, but just be aware that if this becomes something that's accepted, there's no stopping how many innocent people will end up in jail, anyone could then easily 'team up' with other people and accuse to get back at someone or for whatever reason they're doing it.

[DragonBallFan]

I personally don't know of much more than that, honestly. And I haven't seen much more than those. It's my opinion, though, that those few still cast a bit of doubt on the situation, since if people were willing to fake evidence, who knows what else could happen as this goes on.

That may seem like back-peddling, but I'm honestly tired of this & just waiting for more things to come, since that video was pretty concrete with presenting everything that's happened thus far.

Suppose your female friend came to you, talking about how someone assaulted them. 100 girls say that the same thing happened to them; and only 3 of that 100 was confirmed to be making stuff up. Is this truly the stance you would take? Hemming and hawing about whether or not your friend was ACTUALLY being honest in what she said?

Logically if it's confirmed most aren't making it up then the person who is being accused should be punished, the 3 people lying should also be punished. I have had friends come to me telling me things like that, I do not know whether it's true or not, I take no sides, I encourage them to speak up to authorities and I am there for support, but you also need to consider the person you know and how well you know them.

[VegettoEX]

The "but but but what about ______________?!?" and "THE POLICE!!!" boogeymans are strong with some of y'all.

Saying "I'm so super unbiased and impartial and reasonable" alongside "I would be there to support them" doesn't add up, you know it doesn't add up, and you come across as absurdly disingenuous.

[BlueChi]

Pleasant to see that this topic has moved away from the Vic harassment scandal and into outright speaking ill of the deceased who successfully managed to clear their names. Stay classy, people. I'd link a video about how the Michael Jackson thing is a load of BS but I already know I'd have people clawing at my throat over linking said video for vague reasons I'm sure they won't disclose other than "well, it's a video!". Those two aren't even that comparable, tbh. Michael had his quirks and chidlike mentality (due to an immensely fucked up upbringing, mind you) yet during his scandal people who accused him were found out to be frauds and actual liars who wanted to extort him for money and his guests who weren't extorting him vowed how he was a genuine good person. If after all that you still wish to paint Jackson as a sex offender, it's because you *want* him to be one and that is sick on so many levels. Vic's scandal is very still up in the air when it comes to his guilt or innocence when it comes to his sexual assault. We only know for sure he was unprofessional and touchy with the fanbase and he is already being punished for it.

[Kokonoe]

Pleasant to see that this topic has moved away from the Vic harassment scandal and into outright speaking ill of the deceased who successfully managed to clear their names. Stay classy, people. I'd link a video about how the Michael Jackson thing is a load of BS but I already know I'd have people clawing at my throat over linking said video for vague reasons I'm sure they won't disclose other than "well, it's a video!". Those two aren't even that comparable, tbh. Michael had his quirks and chidlike mentality (due to an immensely fucked up upbringing, mind you) yet during his scandal people who accused him were found out to be frauds and actual liars who wanted to extort him for money and his guests who weren't extorting him vowed how he was a genuine good person. If after all that you still wish to paint Jackson as a sex offender, it's because you *want* him to be one and that is sick on so many levels. Vic's scandal is very still up in the air when it comes to his guilt or innocence when it comes to his sexual assault. We only know for sure he was unprofessional and touchy with the fanbase and he is already being punished for it.

I can see you're a fan of Michael Jackson, I still am too. But being a fan is also accepting who he was, all of his traits and this was one of them. Let's forget the settlements for a moment and all the drama surrounding the case and focus on three tidbits.

1. He had, although legal, magazines in his room with naked children in them. His very own bedroom.

2. That same bedroom he slept with children in also contained these magazines.

3. The room he slept with children in contains noise makers / alarms that notify him when people are close.

So he has a room where he sleeps with children in his bed, has an alarm system to notify him when someone is near, and that same room has books of naked children.

Do you honestly think he's entirely innocent?

[ABED]

I get separating art from artist, but given the nature of the crime, it will have a negative effect on my ability to enjoy his music. For example we know for a fact that Chris Benoit murdered his wife and child before killing himself. Even though he's one of the all time greatest professional wrestlers, I haven't been able to bring myself to watch a single match of his since 2007.

As for Vic, never felt that much about his work one way or the other, so it's easier for me to compartmentalize his work from him.

[Kunzait_83]

My final point on the Jackson tangent (since that's a GIGANTIC rabbit hole of a derail as it is) is something I'm just gonna quickly copy/paste over from a Discord chat I had with someone on the matter regarding a ton of the conflicting shit about Robson's credibility:

I mean, at THIS stage, in the TINIEST SLIVER of a possibility that the dude (MJ) MAY be completely innocent, and that ALL of these allegations across ALL these years are ALL just grifters looking for money (which in Jackson's particular case is an excuse that at least carries some genuinely real weight) and that ALL the other circumstantial shit is all just one great big cosmic coincidence that happened to befall this one poor guy - who is simultaneously SO lucky to be one of the richest, most culturally important once-in-a-lifetime gifted artists of the last 40 years (enough to smash through some of the thickest racial barriers in the U.S.), and simultaneously SO unlucky that his personal interests and tastes just so happen to PERFECTLY align themselves JUST SO to make him THE perfect target for a whole SERIES of elaborate fake-pedophile charges in a play for his cash:

Then his innocence at this point in light of ALL this sordid smoke would basically be one great big SNL "Ambiguously Gay Duo" sketch come to life. Except replace the "Gay" part with "Pedophile".

This documentary has TWO accusers, not just one. Even if you were to play the most CHARITABLE devil's advocate on Jackson's behalf and completely toss out Robson's word (based on some admittedly shady and suspect bits of timing on his end), then what about Safechuck? Is he in on the grift too?

And like its not even just the two accusers by themselves: their whole extended families get in on it and back up their stories nearly verbatim. Not just moms, but wives and sisters and grandparents too. And there's handwritten (by MJ) love letters, polaroids, and jewelry that Jackson bought for them (including a makeshift wedding ring for Safechuck). If this is a con, its an INSANELY deep and elaborate one.

And again, for a guy of Jackson's titanic wealth and stature, I CAN certainly indeed buy even an elaborately deep con to get at a piece of his fortune (though its also worth noting that the dude was effectively just about bordering on bankrupt by the end of his life; so even by the 2003 allegations, I can't imagine how much of a "fortune" there was left to get at). But these current allegations on top of ALL THE OTHER SHIT from before? All the other allegations? Again dude, he wrote these kids actual LOVE LETTERS. By hand. If he's NOT diddling them, then at a BARE minimum the dude was still IMMENSELY inappropriate and worryingly on-the-edge: enough that NO sane parent should EVER let their kid near him alone.

There's only so many "Its not what it looks like!" excuses and cosmic coincidences throughout Jackson's entire adult life that can continue to pile up in an ever-increasingly large mound before even the most DEDICATED MJ fan is totally unable to try and just write off or explain away without just looking like they're in extreme, sad denial.

At a certain point you have to overlook a LOT of horrible, damning shit JUST on the sole strength of how much you loved Thriller or Bad growing up. Would ANYONE, outside of a jury room at least, overlook ALL of that mountain of evidence and suspect circumstances for pretty much ANYONE else? And like... I LOVED Moonwalker to absolute death as a kid, and Thriller left as big a mark on me growing up as the next person. But at a certain point man...

And no matter HOW gold-digging and vulture-like these kids' parents indeed certainly are - and yeah lets not forget, the parents and family members of both accusers in the Leaving Neverland doc do NOT come away from it looking even REMOTELY sympathetic in the absolute slightest: so if ALL these parents & family members are ALSO in on some massive play for whatever's left over of the Jackson estate's cash here, then they're all willing to drag their public images through a TON of horrific mud for it - and even if by some chance the grown up kids now are even PARTLY motivated by money to come out with this story now specifically? What MJ (again, VERY likely at this point) did to them as little kids is still ALL SORTS of vile and monstrous, even if only PART OF what they claim happened between them is true.

At the end of the day, that's all that ultimately matters. "Did he or did he not sexually abuse (or even sexually PURSUE) children?"

Even if 30-something Robson has greedy, self-serving motivations for coming forward with all of this information now, 7 year old Robson DID NOT deserve even a TENTH of that shit done to him. And like I said before: I grew up as died in the wool a fan of this dude's music as the next 80s kid. But it isn't about me or any of our collective baggage for the guy, his music, and all of its cultural impact.

If he DID in fact do this shit: and like you said, its VERY overwhelmingly likely he did... then all that wealth and fame and public goodwill and whatnot basically allowed this guy to get away his whole adult life with running basically a glorified child prostitution scam, using Hollywood glamour and cash-dazzled parents as completely deluded and unwitting pimps for their own kids.

[BlueChi]

I can see you're a fan of Michael Jackson, I still am too. But being a fan is also accepting who he was, all of his traits and this was one of them. Let's forget the settlements for a moment and all the drama surrounding the case and focus on three tidbits.

1. He had, although legal, magazines in his room with naked children in them. His very own bedroom.

2. That same bedroom he slept with children in also contained these magazines.

3. The room he slept with children in contains noise makers / alarms that notify him when people are close.

So he has a room where he sleeps with children in his bed, has an alarm system to notify him when someone is near, and that same room has books of naked children.

Do you honestly think he's entirely innocent?

He was an extreme eccentric, that is a fact. The alarm system could very well just be that, tho. An alarm system. Does it come off as incredibly shady when coupled with his habit of sleeping with his guests? Yes. I won't deny that, that'd be stupid of me but it's important to take Jackson's personality into account. The man was very much a boy mentally, pressured into being this enormous celebrity. I honestly think he just mentally shattered and retained a childlike innocence. You can see it plainly in a lot of his lifestyle choices. He was also prone to paranoia and thinking that someone was trying to follow/ruin him, apparently.
I would be one of the first people to denounce him if a compelling argument were made but all we have against him is "that's kinda creepy, isn't it?" stacked against the accusers being revealed as frauds and the actual would-be victims vowing for him every step of the way. Even decades after the fact. It's pretty clear-cut to me: A very broken eccentric man and his creepier personality traits meet greedy people willing to extort and ruin him. That is what we've seen of his case so far, unless you want to say the people who vouched for him are all liars.

[Kokonoe]

Testimonies from real life sexual assault victims:

Sophie Scruggs:
"People in any relationship with a potentially threatening or abusive personality act differently, especially if the person they are afraid of is powerful. I was sexually harassed in school and very scared to talk about it and was "friends" with the person to avoid trouble."

[Rose_City_Madman_in_a_Box]
"I had breakfast with my assailant (a friend) THE MORNING AFTER I was assaulted. Survivors do all kinds of things to rationalize their experience and make it go away. That's part of a toxic culture."

茶ん手楽
"I wrote my foster uncle while he sat in prison, after he'd raped and molested me for years, because I "missed him." How do you think so many children and adults being abused can walk around with their abuser undetected?

This is real life. I don't see a guilty woman [in Monica Rial's photographs with Vic Mignogna], I see a woman who is just like any other woman or man who has been abused and doesn't know what to do. The interactions will be sincere. Sometimes you don't or can't accept/believe what they did so you push it away, just "dealing" with it, because just like you guys are coming after her because she spoke up. (And FUNimation did an investigation, the details of which are none of our business).

Look, I was a HUGE Vic fan too. A HUGE ONE. It hurt when I heard all this. But once I saw what'd happened and my shell was torn away, I was able to see what I didn't before. I stand by Monica. I feel bad for her and all the others who were hurt by this. I grieved, he was someone I leaned on when I was hurting. Other fans have grieved. But do NOT go attacking the victims and trying to discredit their stories just because they "got their way."

Any type of sex abuse is about control. & lots of people like control. He lost the control when everyone spoke out. That is one reason why y'all are mad, because you couldn't silence her or anyone and make it go your way."

People react differently to different situations, you have picked out specific things people have said to prove your point. It's like me taking 10 asian's and 10 african's, then get them to do a test, say the majority who pass are asian, that's like me then saying "Asians are smarter than Africans".

FUNimation did an investigation...and authorities weren't contacted, unbelievable, so it's okay to let a dangerous person loose? Plus Monica's husband is a higher up at FUNimation. If you look at Vic's story, you'll see it from his view, I don't see why he would lie, she said no, he said okay, and they went their separate ways, they were basically cheating with each other. Red flag right there.

If you believe someone based off of just a bunch of people coming out, then that's fine, but just be aware that if this becomes something that's accepted, there's no stopping how many innocent people will end up in jail, anyone could then easily 'team up' with other people and accuse to get back at someone or for whatever reason they're doing it.

I think the biggest thing you aren't realizing so far is that we know there isn't clear cut proof. You cannot prove sexual assault most of the time.

However using common sense and seeing over 50+ people accuse him of this paints a pretty clear picture that he's not wholesome. Sure if it was just 1 or 2 I could see defending Vic, but when it's over 50? Women aren't out to get men and ruin their lives. He's shady, plain and simple.

I can see you're a fan of Michael Jackson, I still am too. But being a fan is also accepting who he was, all of his traits and this was one of them. Let's forget the settlements for a moment and all the drama surrounding the case and focus on three tidbits.

1. He had, although legal, magazines in his room with naked children in them. His very own bedroom.

2. That same bedroom he slept with children in also contained these magazines.

3. The room he slept with children in contains noise makers / alarms that notify him when people are close.

So he has a room where he sleeps with children in his bed, has an alarm system to notify him when someone is near, and that same room has books of naked children.

Do you honestly think he's entirely innocent?

He was an extreme eccentric, that is a fact. The alarm system could very well just be that, tho. An alarm system. Does it come off as incredibly shady when coupled with his habit of sleeping with his guests? Yes. I won't deny that, that'd be stupid of me but it's important to take Jackson's personality into account. The man was very much a boy mentally, pressured into being this enormous celebrity. I honestly think he just mentally shattered and retained a childlike innocence. You can see it plainly in a lot of his lifestyle choices. He was also prone to paranoia and thinking that someone was trying to follow/ruin him, apparently.
I would be one of the first people to denounce him if a compelling argument were made but all we have against him is "that's kinda creepy, isn't it?" stacked against the accusers being revealed as frauds and the actual would-be victims vowing for him every step of the way. Even decades after the fact. It's pretty clear-cut to me: A very broken eccentric man and his creepier personality traits meet greedy people willing to extort and ruin him. That is what we've seen of his case so far, unless you want to say the people who vouched for him are all liars.

For me it's like I do acknowledge his behavior was due to the abuse he had suffered when he was younger. At the same time I also have the wits to understand that that very same abuse could also contribute to him being a pedophile. R Kelly for instance is one because he was raped as a child. Another thing that comes to mind is that ones love for Michael Jackson can make them not want to see him hurt per se and make it hard to believe that someone so good, who spoke such wholesome messages could have this aspect about him but he still is human at the end of the day.

I am thinking that it would be convenient for pedophiles to claim they are eccentric as an easy pass to avoid things. If you separate the fact that he was so talented and skilled and it was some random person on the news I'd imagine most people would clearly think there's something off about his nature with children in a way that seems sexual and uncomfortable.

As for the lawsuits... The first lawsuit in particular had someone who was clearly a bad person trying to make a fortune off MJ, but no he didn't win that lawsuit. The child accurately described his genitals and the splotches on them due to the skin condition. Also, they settled out of court and there was no clear victor. He won a later lawsuit I believe but the initial one he did not. The child in the original lawsuit fled the country after receiving harassment from MJ fans and well his terrible father.

[WittyUsername]

My final point on the Jackson tangent (since that's a GIGANTIC rabbit hole of a derail as it is) is something I'm just gonna quickly copy/paste over from a Discord chat I had with someone on the matter regarding a ton of the conflicting shit about Robson's credibility:

I mean, at THIS stage, in the TINIEST SLIVER of a possibility that the dude (MJ) MAY be completely innocent, and that ALL of these allegations across ALL these years are ALL just grifters looking for money (which in Jackson's particular case is an excuse that at least carries some genuinely real weight) and that ALL the other circumstantial shit is all just one great big cosmic coincidence that happened to befall this one poor guy - who is simultaneously SO lucky to be one of the richest, most culturally important once-in-a-lifetime gifted artists of the last 40 years (enough to smash through some of the thickest racial barriers in the U.S.), and simultaneously SO unlucky that his personal interests and tastes just so happen to PERFECTLY align themselves JUST SO to make him THE perfect target for a whole SERIES of elaborate fake-pedophile charges in a play for his cash:

Then his innocence at this point in light of ALL this sordid smoke would basically be one great big SNL "Ambiguously Gay Duo" sketch come to life. Except replace the "Gay" part with "Pedophile".

This documentary has TWO accusers, not just one. Even if you were to play the most CHARITABLE devil's advocate on Jackson's behalf and completely toss out Robson's word (based on some admittedly shady and suspect bits of timing on his end), then what about Safechuck? Is he in on the grift too?

And like its not even just the two accusers by themselves: their whole extended families get in on it and back up their stories nearly verbatim. Not just moms, but wives and sisters and grandparents too. And there's handwritten (by MJ) love letters, polaroids, and jewelry that Jackson bought for them (including a makeshift wedding ring for Safechuck). If this is a con, its an INSANELY deep and elaborate one.

And again, for a guy of Jackson's titanic wealth and stature, I CAN certainly indeed buy even an elaborately deep con to get at a piece of his fortune (though its also worth noting that the dude was effectively just about bordering on bankrupt by the end of his life; so even by the 2003 allegations, I can't imagine how much of a "fortune" there was left to get at). But these current allegations on top of ALL THE OTHER SHIT from before? All the other allegations? Again dude, he wrote these kids actual LOVE LETTERS. By hand. If he's NOT diddling them, then at a BARE minimum the dude was still IMMENSELY inappropriate and worryingly on-the-edge: enough that NO sane parent should EVER let their kid near him alone.

There's only so many "Its not what it looks like!" excuses and cosmic coincidences throughout Jackson's entire adult life that can continue to pile up in an ever-increasingly large mound before even the most DEDICATED MJ fan is totally unable to try and just write off or explain away without just looking like they're in extreme, sad denial.

At a certain point you have to overlook a LOT of horrible, damning shit JUST on the sole strength of how much you loved Thriller or Bad growing up. Would ANYONE, outside of a jury room at least, overlook ALL of that mountain of evidence and suspect circumstances for pretty much ANYONE else? And like... I LOVED Moonwalker to absolute death as a kid, and Thriller left as big a mark on me growing up as the next person. But at a certain point man...

And no matter HOW gold-digging and vulture-like these kids' parents indeed certainly are - and yeah lets not forget, the parents and family members of both accusers in the Leaving Neverland doc do NOT come away from it looking even REMOTELY sympathetic in the absolute slightest: so if ALL these parents & family members are ALSO in on some massive play for whatever's left over of the Jackson estate's cash here, then they're all willing to drag their public images through a TON of horrific mud for it - and even if by some chance the grown up kids now are even PARTLY motivated by money to come out with this story now specifically? What MJ (again, VERY likely at this point) did to them as little kids is still ALL SORTS of vile and monstrous, even if only PART OF what they claim happened between them is true.

At the end of the day, that's all that ultimately matters. "Did he or did he not sexually abuse (or even sexually PURSUE) children?"

Even if 30-something Robson has greedy, self-serving motivations for coming forward with all of this information now, 7 year old Robson DID NOT deserve even a TENTH of that shit done to him. And like I said before: I grew up as died in the wool a fan of this dude's music as the next 80s kid. But it isn't about me or any of our collective baggage for the guy, his music, and all of its cultural impact.

If he DID in fact do this shit: and like you said, its VERY overwhelmingly likely he did... then all that wealth and fame and public goodwill and whatnot basically allowed this guy to get away his whole adult life with running basically a glorified child prostitution scam, using Hollywood glamour and cash-dazzled parents as completely deluded and unwitting pimps for their own kids.

Doesn’t Safechuck’s story also have inconsistencies, like that he stayed with MJ in Neverland during a period in which MJ was on tour?