Piccolo & Android 18 post-Tournament of Power

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Re: Piccolo & Android 18 post-Tournament of Power

Post by BWri » Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:55 am

Rakurai wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:38 am
Okay, this is getting a little absurd. Absence of evidence =/= proof. You can make that assumption but there is nothing to back it up. No mention of Piccolo means no training with Piccolo up until the hours before ToP.
This is your issue. I literally conceded this point to you two posts back, but you brought more evidence to the table which worked against you. All I said was that your evidence doesn't prove what you're saying, but it also doesn't prove that Piccolo and Gohan were training together the whole time. It proves nothing, so thus it is neutral. I just presented examples of what could be but was careful to say, I have no proof. There's nothing ridiculous about that at all. It's the most fair thing I could say given what you presented. Again, this is an issue I had already conceded to you until your last post. We can just let this one go.
The bold is an assumption on your part. He went in as a SSJ, he used CSSB to block her. No dialogue on "Oh Frieza went Golden so she must be that strong etc etc." Without that, you are extrapolating beyond the context. He almost got eliminated until Frieza interefered, all you need is that derp "oh shit" face he made before she went right in for the final blow.
The context is all in the art and dialogue. For Goku specifically, he first handily blocks her blow, smirks, says that her punch is impressive, then kicks her away like nothing. At this point she is sweating and shocked. Then she further presses him, but notice he doesn't move from the spot for 8 panels even as she's attacking him. It's only at the last minute, when her power spikes that he is surprised, because at this point he already judged her to be at a level he can handle, as seen with the first punch he blocked, but her power keeps rising and its taking him by surprise. From what I know of Goku, I believe he is attempting to match her level and not go too far beyond it while they fight. I admittedly don't have much evidence for that here, except knowing that it is one of Goku's defining traits so I won't press that point but either way we don't get to see how he'd respond. Frieza, however is obviously not shook, otherwise I think he'd be trying to help Goku instead of literally kicking him away. Frieza's blow is even faster than Kale's, so fast that Kale is taken by surprise that it happened right in front of her. And after, they're just dicking around right in front of her. They don't take her seriously until her power spikes and even then they just sit back and watch her rampage like Vegeta. If she was a serious threat, some combination of Goku, Vegeta, and/or Frieza would have worked together to take her out.
Again, this is Golden Frieza, not 1st form or 2nd form Frieza, Golden Frieza with the power to contend with CSSB.

I think so too.
Yes he was surprised at first but Kale literally walked up to him and backhanded him. So unless he was looking to get intentionally backhanded, then no he wasn't playing around. Might as well say that Frieza was intentionally letting SSJ Goku crush his hands.
I gave you a mountain of evidence. Why do you keep clinging to this backhand. It means nothing when Frieza is laughing in her face. Again: "One backhand doesn't undo Frieza laughing after that beatdown/cracking jokes about Saiyan transformations, being more upset with Goku for interfering than Kale for roughing him up, being eager to continue their fight even kicking Goku away to 1v1, literally telling Goku that he wasn't taking her serious." All that stuff literally happened.
You can believe in Frieza's words if you want despite his cocky personality.

Frieza never stays cocky when he's legitimately outmatched. He always, always freaks out. He is only cocky when he's holding back or has an edge in some way. This is amplified when he's fighting a Saiyan. You don't think he would have resorted to a reactive Death Ball if he was afraid of Kale?
I believe more in the evidence I see. And I see Frieza getting a beatdown, getting cocky at first, then getting frustrated he was saved by CSSB Goku, and getting sweating palms over Kale's power rising even further.
That's all surface level. You aren't seeing all the brilliant power scaling that Toyotaro is using to give that scene life. Give Toyotaro some credit here :lol:. ToP manga left much to be desired for me, but I love the power scaling for this section.
Let me make this more clear for you visually. Here's Toppo getting "caught off-guard" by CSSB Vegeta. (Spoiler tag shows whole page.)

And here's CSSB Vegeta and Toppo getting "caught off-guard" by Kale.

So yeah bullshit that her peak strength is lower than CSSB.
You don't have to share the panels. I reference them every time I discuss this with you. The difference between those examples is in one Toppo knows he is fighting Vegeta 1v1 so his focus is on a single opponent in front of him, in another, Kale is interfering with them while they are fighting each other. We all know in Super that being attacked from a blind spot or just off-guard in general can get you hurt badly. If a ring laser can nearly kill, what do you think a SSB level opponent can do?
And here's another assumption on your part with no evidence to the contrary, Gohan being below CSSB.

I can admit this. Yes. Because there is no other scaling here to compare to other than Kefla. I think Gohan is comparable to CSSB, since he comfortably stepped in in Goku's place, but I would assume that he's not as strong. I have no basis for this, but since Kefla and Gohan only fought each other, we're all left with guess work.
Vados states that Kefla = Kale's power + Caulifla's battle sense. Not Kale's power + Caulifla's power. Potara doesn't necessarily increase the strength of the fusion, as implied with Goku + Satan. Kefla is using Kale's power efficiently, and if Gohan matches that, then yes he's at least CSSB.
Potara definitely does increase the strength of the fusion. If it doesn't then U6 has unique rules for Potara. We don't know what would have happened with Goku + Satan because it was Goku who was narrating that part and he wasn't quite a Potara expert at that point, plus he actually still considered it (if I remember that right), meaning Satan would have given him at least a small boost.
I don't believe she can contend with the big boys in the long run. But power-wise before she gets drained she is on par if not above CSSB based on her feats against Goku and Vegeta. And it makes all the more sense when you line it up with the Broly film, because she is the counterpart of Broly from U6.
Fair point. I just don't see her as that strong, but I don't think it's ridiculous if you do. Ultimately we agree that she can't contend with the big boys on her own because of the massive power drain. I think that's enough. I respect where you stand, but I just think differently about it.
No 1 vs 1 feats? Golden Frieza's beatdown speaks otherwise. CSSB Goku getting almost eliminated speaks for that.
Not a feat when Frieza no-sells the beatdown right after and seems more focused on Goku then her.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

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