Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Grand Marshal 1]

when Zamasu got bigger (causing Vegito to power-up a bit) would you compare his technique with the one used by Garlic Junior, or the Namekians?

It’s the same “super strong but slow” form the Saiyans and Cell had used in the past. There is no way to quantify how much stronger he got. Garlick Jr. and Piccolo did the same in the Makyo Star filler arc.

Hmmm, I guess that you are correct. I mean, Garlic Junior, his minions and Piccolo's respective form (not the giant one, but rather the one you indicated) didn't offer a boost nearly as much as 10 times.

Grade III sounds like the most plausible explanation. Wow, that stacked on top of the Rosé state. Quite the power-up!

[SupremeKai25]

It was indeed an astonishing power-up. Honestly, the good guys are very luck that neither Black nor Fused Zamasu knew about the Kaio-ken technique, otherwise they would have been stomped. The Kaio-ken is already deadly on Goku, imagine it applied on an immortal being who can never run out of stamina!

[Grand Marshal 1]

It was indeed an astonishing power-up. Honestly, the good guys are very luck that neither Black nor Fused Zamasu knew about the Kaio-ken technique, otherwise they would have been stomped. The Kaio-ken is already deadly on Goku, imagine it applied on an immortal being who can never run out of stamina!

Indeed. Although Goku Black with SSJR Kaio Ken would stomp!

[ZombieVito]

I agree as well. I kinda place Merged Zamasu at the level of 2nd UIO Goku. Stronger even than Kefla (besides 2nd UIO Goku did overpower her). Vegito Blue should be stronger. Both individuals (remember that they are fusions) should be quite more powerful than KK×20 Blue Goku, with the Spirit Bomb. I guess that is a bit of lowball from my part, however since the end of the Future Trunks Arc, neither Goku nor Vegeta got absurdly stronger. For 20 episodes they did nothing. Goku fought with Hit (I doubt that he got powerful enough from that fight), Vegeta had to think of Bulma, Whis trained the two just to be in shape and Goku even felt that his power was still the same (when he said that he was a bit "rusty" I don't think that he mean weaker).

So I do not understand why people still want to imply that between the Future Trunks Arc and the ToP, Goku and Vegeta became strong enough to be on par with Vegito Blue from the Future Trunks Arc, while in the same form.

Goku had to get a little stronger at least since not only did he master Blue Kaioken X10 but also X20. I'll probably have him go from an 8 to a 10 for example.

Speaking of Corrupted Zamasu, I do have him weaker than GoD Toppo and SS2 Kefla now. It's when he goes giant that I have him way stronger than them and be somewhat on par with Vegetto Blue.

I understand that. Well, he could have gotten stronger only with the Kaio-Ken. He did master the ×20 KK afterall, that is true. I think that he has been trying to do so by the Tournament of the Destroyers. After using that KK ×10 he realised that he required even more power, which is why we also got to see him activate a normal KK against Merged Zamasu. However, during the Exhibition Match he spammed it a lot.

About Merged Zamasu, do you think that it would make sense if he became 10 times stronger in his giant form? I mean when Zamasu got bigger (causing Vegito to power-up a bit) would you compare his technique with the one used by Garlic Junior, or the Namekians? Great Namekians have no different power level, so it has to be the first one. However, I do not know much of Garlic Junior, so if we were to scale off Zamasu's power-up based on him, do you have any idea as to how much stronger he would get against Vegito?

I suppose it's possible Goku only trained the Kaioken but I feel he should be stronger physically as well.

We don't know what Kaioken he used against Zamasu. I use X10 since it's fits better with what previews and Kaio said.

I don't have Zamasu getting that strong while giant. Now that I think about it, I don't have him even twice as strong.

[ankokudaishogun]

IMHO Fused Zamasu was about as strong as 3rd UIOmen Goku: weaker than Full Power Jiren but actually forcing him to be serious and exert some REAL effort instead of, you know, playing.

Jiren wasn't at full-power in the anime though.

IIRC he was. Then completed Ultra Instinct made a joke of his Full Power, triggering him into Super Full Power(Shirtless)

It's mostly because he's immortal(or immortal enough, at least), otherwise he'd be lower

Well being immortal doesn't necessarily provide a power boost though?

Recovering almost instantly from any wound(and apparently having unlimited stamina?) means one can ignore defending themselves, and can fight at full power all time in a very aggressive way

Not saying it's a gigantic power-up, but I would give it at least a 10% over "normal" power in terms of effectiveness.

[Zamasu55]

IMHO Fused Zamasu was about as strong as 3rd UIOmen Goku: weaker than Full Power Jiren but actually forcing him to be serious and exert some REAL effort instead of, you know, playing.

Jiren wasn't at full-power in the anime though.

IIRC he was. Then completed Ultra Instinct made a joke of his Full Power, triggering him into Super Full Power(Shirtless)

It's mostly because he's immortal(or immortal enough, at least), otherwise he'd be lower

Well being immortal doesn't necessarily provide a power boost though?

Recovering almost instantly from any wound(and apparently having unlimited stamina?) means one can ignore defending themselves, and can fight at full power all time in a very aggressive way

Not saying it's a gigantic power-up, but I would give it at least a 10% over "normal" power in terms of effectiveness.

I meant in DB Heroes.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Goku had to get a little stronger at least since not only did he master Blue Kaioken X10 but also X20. I'll probably have him go from an 8 to a 10 for example.

Speaking of Corrupted Zamasu, I do have him weaker than GoD Toppo and SS2 Kefla now. It's when he goes giant that I have him way stronger than them and be somewhat on par with Vegetto Blue.

I understand that. Well, he could have gotten stronger only with the Kaio-Ken. He did master the ×20 KK afterall, that is true. I think that he has been trying to do so by the Tournament of the Destroyers. After using that KK ×10 he realised that he required even more power, which is why we also got to see him activate a normal KK against Merged Zamasu. However, during the Exhibition Match he spammed it a lot.

About Merged Zamasu, do you think that it would make sense if he became 10 times stronger in his giant form? I mean when Zamasu got bigger (causing Vegito to power-up a bit) would you compare his technique with the one used by Garlic Junior, or the Namekians? Great Namekians have no different power level, so it has to be the first one. However, I do not know much of Garlic Junior, so if we were to scale off Zamasu's power-up based on him, do you have any idea as to how much stronger he would get against Vegito?

I suppose it's possible Goku only trained the Kaioken but I feel he should be stronger physically as well.

We don't know what Kaioken he used against Zamasu. I use X10 since it's fits better with what previews and Kaio said.

I don't have Zamasu getting that strong while giant. Now that I think about it, I don't have him even twice as strong.

I think that his "giant" form, although I want to believe that it has a connection with Grade III, is more closely affiliated with the one that Garlic Jr. and Piccolo used. Exactly, less than two times. 1.6 or 1.5. Somewhere there. Vegito Blue (I think) only reached his full power when powering-up for the Final Kamehameha, in order to finish off Zamasu with a Savage Strike shortly afterwards. So we have three phases where Vegito powers-up. Initialy, against giant Zamasu and in his final attack. In all instances, he should be theoretically stronger, but Zamasu still has infinite potential, immortality (he doesn't need to defend himself) and he got the "giant" power up.

If we count out all these, then we could say that the Zamasu that took on the Savage Strike from Vegito is 10× stronger than Merged Zamasu (Grotesque) who watched the birth of Vegito.

[ZombieVito]

I think that his "giant" form, although I want to believe that it has a connection with Grade III, is more closely affiliated with the one that Garlic Jr. and Piccolo used. Exactly, less than two times. 1.6 or 1.5. Somewhere there. Vegito Blue (I think) only reached his full power when powering-up for the Final Kamehameha, in order to finish off Zamasu with a Savage Strike shortly afterwards. So we have three phases where Vegito powers-up. Initialy, against giant Zamasu and in his final attack. In all instances, he should be theoretically stronger, but Zamasu still has infinite potential, immortality (he doesn't need to defend himself) and he got the "giant" power up.

If we count out all these, then we could say that the Zamasu that took on the Savage Strike from Vegito is 10× stronger than Merged Zamasu (Grotesque) who watched the birth of Vegito.

Vegetto is pretty dumb if he only used his full power when firing the Final Kamehameha since after it he has visible scratches on him, meaning that Zamasu actually managed to damage him slightly.

I think he only power up one time in the fight and it was right after Zamasu goes giant. 10 times increase is pretty extreme to me.

[Noah]

Thinking about the Future Trunks arc (I might post this on another thread too), Trunks (at least on anime) still believed Gohan could be reliable on defeating Black based on his strenght when he fought Cell.

Isn't that a proof that he's did not surpassed Gotenks, Vegetto just by fighting and running from his enemy (as some absurdly claim)?

Meaning that Trunks could be on pair with Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan or a few notches below and Base Black could be either strong or around that level of power as well.

[Miracles]

Except Goku been passed up Cell. Trunks SSJ2 was even equal to a more powerful SSJ2 Goku in both anime and manga's FT arc.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Except Goku been passed up Cell. Trunks SSJ2 was even equal to a more powerful SSJ2 Goku in both anime and manga's FT arc.

Not to mention that in the Manga, he actually was on par with SSJ3 Goku. I heard a lot of people suggesting that Trunks had discovered a "Strengthened SSJ2" with power equal or superior to SSJ3, but I ain't sure. All I can tell is that Goku ended the fight by using SSJG.

[ruler9871]

Thinking about the Future Trunks arc (I might post this on another thread too), Trunks (at least on anime) still believed Gohan could be reliable on defeating Black based on his strenght when he fought Cell.

Isn't that a proof that he's did not surpassed Gotenks, Vegetto just by fighting and running from his enemy (as some absurdly claim)?

Meaning that Trunks could be on pair with Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan or a few notches below and Base Black could be either strong or around that level of power as well.

That just sounds like an ignored inconsistency to me (if he actually made that claim, where's the source?). It doesn't match out with the rest of the rest of the show (and Trunks own feats in that arc prior to becoming SSJ Rage).

[Koitsukai]

Thinking about the Future Trunks arc (I might post this on another thread too), Trunks (at least on anime) still believed Gohan could be reliable on defeating Black based on his strenght when he fought Cell.

Isn't that a proof that he's did not surpassed Gotenks, Vegetto just by fighting and running from his enemy (as some absurdly claim)?

Meaning that Trunks could be on pair with Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan or a few notches below and Base Black could be either strong or around that level of power as well.

Trunks did defeat Dabura with some hard work, so he should be around that power level or above (Cell-Dabura-SS2 Kid Gohan-Majin Vegeta-SS2Goku). I wouldn't put much value on what Trunks might believe other characters can do, I don't consider him to be as reliable as other sources, but his PL was shown to be (at least right before Black showed up) SS2 tier from late Cell arc and early Buu Arc. He then fought Goku and forced him to go SS3, so after a year fighting off Black he is on the highest SS2 tier.

[ruler9871]

Thinking about the Future Trunks arc (I might post this on another thread too), Trunks (at least on anime) still believed Gohan could be reliable on defeating Black based on his strenght when he fought Cell.

Isn't that a proof that he's did not surpassed Gotenks, Vegetto just by fighting and running from his enemy (as some absurdly claim)?

Meaning that Trunks could be on pair with Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan or a few notches below and Base Black could be either strong or around that level of power as well.

Trunks did defeat Dabura with some hard work, so he should be around that power level or above (Cell-Dabura-SS2 Kid Gohan-Majin Vegeta-SS2Goku). I wouldn't put much value on what Trunks might believe other characters can do, I don't consider him to be as reliable as other sources, but his PL was shown to be (at least right before Black showed up) SS2 tier from late Cell arc and early Buu Arc. He then fought Goku and forced him to go SS3, so after a year fighting off Black he is on the highest SS2 tier.

There's also the fact that Trunks can't sense God Ki, so there's no way he can accurately measure Base Black's power.

[Hugo Boss]

There's also the fact that Trunks can't sense God Ki, so there's no way he can accurately measure Base Black's power.

Black has normal ki since Krillin and Piccolo can sense his energy. Trunks acquired the ability to sense God ki when he reached god level strength.

[PFM18]

Thinking about the Future Trunks arc (I might post this on another thread too), Trunks (at least on anime) still believed Gohan could be reliable on defeating Black based on his strenght when he fought Cell.

Isn't that a proof that he's did not surpassed Gotenks, Vegetto just by fighting and running from his enemy (as some absurdly claim)?

Meaning that Trunks could be on pair with Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan or a few notches below and Base Black could be either strong or around that level of power as well.

The only comment I recall from Trunks regarding Gohan was that he didn't have the power emanating from him like he did in the Cell arc, nothing of Gohan being useful against Black, nor would it make any sense for him to make any such comment. I would have to see the exact quote, assuming it exists.

There's no way around him surpassing Gotenks and Vegetto. Immediately prior to the arc, Base Goku and Vegeta show themselves to be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks very clearly and explicitly. In Vegetto's case, BoG establishes SSG>Vegetto, and Goku's SSJ was stated to surpass his SSG from a moment prior after he adapted to the power he experienced, and Goku has long since gotten stronger, and Trunks matched him in equivalent forms.

FT arc SSJ2 Goku~FT arc SSJ2 Future Trunks>FT arc SSJ Goku>>>BoG arc SSJ Goku(post-ritual)>BoG SSG Goku>>>SSJ Vegetto

That doesn't work at all, Goku has long since surpassed Cell Games Gohan, and Trunks matched him in equal forms in both mediums. There is no way around SSJ2 Trunks>>>>SSJ2 Cell Games Gohan being true.

Basically, this post is more a reflection of wishful thinking than it is logic or evidence.

[Hugo Boss]

The only comment I recall from Trunks regarding Gohan was that he didn't have the power emanating from him like he did in the Cell arc, nothing of Gohan being useful against Black, nor would it make any sense for him to make any such comment. I would have to see the exact quote, assuming it exists.

“This is Gohan-san?! I can’t detect any of that overflowing power.” And he repeats the same thought: “This is Gohan-san? ... The one who fought Cell?”

Most likely, it’s a indication that Gohan doesn’t look as fierce as Trunks remembers. Not sure how it could mean that Gohan would fare better against Black.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Well guys, what about Ultimate Gohan after the ToP? Would he force Black to use SSJ or even Rosé? Because against Base Black, even if the latter evolves uncontrollably, Gohan should unleash his potential faster.

[PFM18]

The only comment I recall from Trunks regarding Gohan was that he didn't have the power emanating from him like he did in the Cell arc, nothing of Gohan being useful against Black, nor would it make any sense for him to make any such comment. I would have to see the exact quote, assuming it exists.

“This is Gohan-san?! I can’t detect any of that overflowing power.” And he repeats the same thought: “This is Gohan-san? ... The one who fought Cell?”

Most likely, it’s a indication that Gohan doesn’t look as fierce as Trunks remembers. Not sure how it could mean that Gohan would fare better against Black.

I thought he was referring to another comment, because that one certainly doesn't appear to be implying he would be useful against Black at the time, nor ever.

Well guys, what about Ultimate Gohan after the ToP? Would he force Black to use SSJ or even Rosé? Because against Base Black, even if the latter evolves uncontrollably, Gohan should unleash his potential faster.

I think he could give a fight to Rosé

[SupremeKai25]

Well guys, what about Ultimate Gohan after the ToP? Would he force Black to use SSJ or even Rosé? Because against Base Black, even if the latter evolves uncontrollably, Gohan should unleash his potential faster.

He would force him to use Rosé but Black would still win. He had grown so strong that his power had surpassed even his own divine understanding as a fighting genius. When he created the scythe and that endless army of clones, he was basically unstoppable. A shame that he overreacted and fused too early with Future Zamasu.