Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:44 pm

HeroR wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:44 pm if he was one-shot material, why didn't Goku one-shot him in 57? He wished for immortality to be the ultimate shield for Black, not because he was complete weakling. You're mixing the anime and manga.
I don’t know. After that, whenever Goku engaged in a fight against him, the immortality was brought up to justify his survivability. He isn’t supposed to be capable of enduring a fight at that level. He can’t even beat Trunks, who is below SSBlue level, unless of course Trunks is half dead like in episode 63. For some reason, Trunks wasn’t even hurt in the later part of that episode. They probably forgot that Black almost killed him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:53 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:44 pm
HeroR wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:44 pm if he was one-shot material, why didn't Goku one-shot him in 57? He wished for immortality to be the ultimate shield for Black, not because he was complete weakling. You're mixing the anime and manga.
I don’t know. After that, whenever Goku engaged in a fight against him, the immortality was brought up to justify his survivability. He isn’t supposed to be capable of enduring a fight at that level. He can’t even beat Trunks, who is below SSBlue level, unless of course Trunks is half dead like in episode 63. For some reason, Trunks wasn’t even hurt in the later part of that episode. They probably forgot that Black almost killed him.
His immortality was brought up to say he always drop his guard after an attack. Trunks, Goku, and even Black (indirectly) states that Zamasu was reckless because he was an immortal and had almost no guard.

Him being an immortal wouldn’t have allowed him to push Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku back or even interception Vegeta when he was trying to fight Black in 63.

Again, same Trunks who kicked Rose through a building and even parried and blocked his blade. I guess Black was really Super Saiyan 2 Trunks level too.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:55 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:34 pm
Zamasu55 wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:12 pm I think you guys mix up the anime and the manga, which are vastly different.

Future Zamasu in the manga was confirmed to be weaker than Ssj2 Trunks, but that doesn't mean that in the anime it's the same. F. Zamasu is clearly low SsjB tier, ep. 57 shows it.

That's the same with SsjB Vegito. In the manga, Shin says he could be stronger than Beerus. In the anime this doesn't happen, and Vegito is still weaker than the Hakaishin.
Just because he traded blows with SSB Goku doesn't make him Blue tier.

After that brief fight he gets overpowered by SS2 Trunks many times.
Only in 57. Trunks never overpowered Zamasu again until he got Rage.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:58 pm

ruler9871 wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:53 pm
Miracles wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:22 pm
ruler9871 wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:16 pm

1. Zamasu took that head shot on purpose and he smiled as Goku charged at him, because (as Trunks explained) F.Zamasu likes to drop his guard on purpose and indulge in his immortality. So that doesn't prove a thing.

Even U6 arc SSB Goku could one-shot RoF Golden Freeza, so does that mean RoF Golden Freeza isn't SSB level? Being weaker than one SSB level character doesn't mean you aren't SSB level. Transformations are not tiers and SSB-level is board range of power.

2. Ep.63 SSB Goku >>> Start of Black arc SSB Goku. Your argument is based on the fallacy that SSB Goku/Vegeta & Rage Trunks had the exact same level of strength throughout the whole Black arc, which is explicitly false by both feats & statements. And even if did stay the same throughout the arc, it still wouldn't prove that F.Zamasu isn't SSB level.
The fact that Zamasu was still able to put up some type of fight with Blue Goku before and after his strength boost just proves TOEI's bad writing again. I'm sorry you are assuming U6 Goku could one shot RoF Golden Freeza. We don't know the growth numbers between arcs. Also, Zamasu taking a shot head on to prove/indulge in his invincibility/immortality does not change the narration of how he died from those attacks from Goku and Trunks and only survived due to regeneration. Stated by Goku, Vegeta and Bulma.
This is circular reasoning. You assume from the start without proof that F.Zamasu isn't SSB level in the anime to argue that him fighting SSB Goku on par is bad writing/inconsistent.

And when did Future Zamasu ever "die"? You are making stuff up. How can he die if he's immortal?

"U6 Goku could one shot RoF Golden Freeza. We don't know the growth numbers between arcs"

The point was that "SSB level" isn't a fixed, narrow tier of strength, and that U6 arc Goku & RoF Freeza aren't equals just because their in the same class of power.
All it means is that RoF Golden Freeza won't be U6 Blue level Goku. Zamas died when Goku stated "you really are immortal" after hitting him with a quick combo in episode 63. Also, in episode 61, Goku blew his head off and Bulma stated Zamas went back to normal after taking that attack. Meaning HEAVY damage was done to the point that it killed Zamas in both instances. SSJ2 Trunks ran him through with his sword in episode 57. Zamas hasn't proven to be Blue level. It's just TOEI's inconsistent writing. However, the story ONLY CONTINUES to praise his immortality/invulnerability, not his strength.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:08 am

HeroR wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:55 pm Only in 57. Trunks never overpowered Zamasu again until he got Rage.
In episode 63 Black saves Zamasu from a weakened SS2 Trunks.

Zamasu can't even beat this Trunks.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:46 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:14 amIt's not that Future Zamasu is weak, it's that the good guys have received so many transformations that any sort of balance has gone out of the window.
He's strong in general and would have been a considerable threat a few arcs beforehand but as of the current events at the time he was pretty weak when compared to everyone else and didn't really do much of anything.

He was immortal so he was constantly in the way and he was able to fuse with Goku Black to make him stronger...and that's about it.
ruler9871 wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:05 pm*Post*
You're breaking down my post more and more that it's gonna take too long to keep responding especially if I have to more than once so I'll do it an easier way.

1. There was no saying how much power Toppo used but the fact is that Goku fared far better against him than Gohan just as he fared better than Android 17 in the black hole.

2. You bring up the manga and Gohan fighting evenly against Kefla but Krillin implied that Gohan was not as strong as Goku all the same.

3. Just because he was kidding around by putting on a mock bad guy act doesn't mean he was holding back in the actual fight itself. You assume he was holding back and that's all.

4. I didn't say he didn't get up from the kick. Being immortal he'd recover from anything. That he was knocked and struggled to get up from that one kick shows how weak he is when compared to other characters of the Super Saiyan Blue level.

5. The show did point on two occasions when he dropped his guard and was shown to do so. Super Saiyan Trunks fought Zamasu and got overpowered, he was not letting his guard down as he was blocking and dodging attacks moments before, the complete opposite of letting your guard down.

6. Goku said there was something different about him because there was because he was immortal now.

7. The YouTube clip you provided is something I already acknowledged as being Zamasu at his most impressive. He lands one attack in that fight.

In fact I'll do your work for you. I'll go ahead and count how many times Zamasu is actually able to hit someone on his own throughout the whole arc without an interference from Goku Black....

He hits Goku one time head on, he hits Goku one time from behind when his attention was elsewhere, he hits a drained Super Saiyan Trunks one time, he hits Vegeta while he's chasing after Goku Black one time.

That's it, there are no other occasions. In that whole arc and all the fights he's involved in he hits Goku and an exhausted Trunks fair and square once each.

That is how weak and useless he actually is.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:34 am

New Heroes episode tonight and looks like Jiren can kill Zamasu easily but... Zamasu his fully immortal now. He regenerates from nothing without his body getting corrupted.

Since he beats GoD Toppo in the games it looks like he has his corrupted power without any drawbacks now.

I'm liking this a lot.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:22 am

ZombieVito wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:08 am
HeroR wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:55 pm Only in 57. Trunks never overpowered Zamasu again until he got Rage.
In episode 63 Black saves Zamasu from a weakened SS2 Trunks.

Zamasu can't even beat this Trunks.
'Save' is a strong term since Zamasu let himself be grabbed and dared Trunks to do something since he's an immortal: https://youtu.be/huzwlb0Bdik?t=41. He didn't even try to break free.

And 63 was the same episode Zamasu did this: https://youtu.be/GKfJZQSvHHc?t=55. For someone who can't beat up Super Saiyan 2 Trunks as you guys keep insisting, how the hell did he catch up with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta and Rose in mid-fight?

And if Zamasu couldn't beat Trunks, why was Black so sure Zamasu could kill Trunks in 64 and Goku and Vegeta were worried: https://youtu.be/5oX6qhrVhDc?t=101. Odd reaction if Trunks could just beat the shit out of Zamasu even if he's an immortal.

Even odder, if Zamasu was only as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Trunks, how did he managed to hold both Goku and Trunks in place? It wasn't like Goku or even Trunks was majorly weakened like Raditz after Gohan head butted him: https://youtu.be/O41cmxH2UyM?t=31
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:26 am

We're still ignoring the fact that Future Zamasu, as shown in episode 61 (when Goku buries him with ki blasts) and 63, literally WANTS to be hit because he seeks to revel in his immortality? I guess we are.
New Heroes episode tonight and looks like Jiren can kill Zamasu easily but
To be fair, Jiren could easily kill 95% of the characters in Dragon Ball. It's not that Fused Zamasu is too weak, it's just that Jiren is absurdly OP.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:05 am

HeroR wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:22 am And if Zamasu couldn't beat Trunks, why was Black so sure Zamasu could kill Trunks in 64
Arrogance, obviously. No character was more full of himself than Zamasu.

What would he have to be sure about? It was already made very apparent that Rage Trunks was far stronger than Zamasu. Rage Trunks was able to hold his own against Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black even after his Zenkai boost. In fact he held his own against both of them at the same time. Twice.

We already know that Zamasu would never have been strong enough to kill Trunks.

Holding them down doesn't mean that much anyway because Android 16 was able to hold Cell for a while and he was a fly in comparison. Plus he held them for a couple seconds anyway.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zamasu55 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:31 am

So, a non FP Jiren can easily kill Zamasu. Interesting...

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zamasu55 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:32 am

ZombieVito wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:34 am New Heroes episode tonight and looks like Jiren can kill Zamasu easily but... Zamasu his fully immortal now. He regenerates from nothing without his body getting corrupted.

Since he beats GoD Toppo in the games it looks like he has his corrupted power without any drawbacks now.

I'm liking this a lot.
The arcade game has its own story, there Zamasu was confirmed to have gotten stronger than before. But in the anime this isn't the case yet.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:41 am

I personally place FT arc Merged Zamasu (corrupted and giant forms) at the level of high 2nd UIO Goku from the ToP (the one against Kefla). HOWEVER, Zamasu isn't using this form here. Instead he is in his "Halo" form (also evident from the trailers and the anime). Even so, saying that his zenkai placed him on the same level of power as his FT arc prime, while in a lesser form, means a lot. HOWEVER everyone has gotten stronger, even Jiren. So Zamasu is doing very good against him.

BUT, it isn't enough still. No way would Zamasu be stronger than SSJ3 Full Power Cumber, who was still not a major threat against Jiren. Nonetheless, we didn't get a longer fight with the two. Anyway, the current Zamasu at his "halo" form was shown in the game to be capable of defeating GoD Toppo (who should be at the same level as FT arc Merged Zamasu at his prime, because 3rd Omen Goku was even stronger, so he can't be at that level). As such, low 3rd UIO would be my highball for current Zamasu, who hasn't fought at FP yet.

Lastly, as I said Jiren got stronger, so whether before his FP was comparable to FP 3rd UIO Goku, now he should be above that ToP character. BUT Goku did get stronger too, so his UIO should naturally surpass his 3rd incarnation of the form from the ToP.

Ultimately Jiren FP (current)=UIO Goku (Grand Priest)>>Jiren FP (ToP)≈UIO Goku (3rd time)>>Toppo (GoD, ToP)>=UIO Goku (2nd time)=Zamasu Merged, corrupted, giant, FT arc)

Current halo Zamasu should fal between Goku and Toppo (3rd Omen Goku).
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:47 am

HOWEVER, Zamasu isn't using this form here. Instead he is in his "Halo" form (also evident from the trailers and the anime).
When he emerges from the smoke, he has the Rosé aura that he had only in his Corrupted state and not in his Halo form. Maybe he can switch between the two forms?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:19 am

HeroR wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:53 pm same Trunks who kicked Rose through a building and even parried and blocked his blade. I guess Black was really Super Saiyan 2 Trunks level too.
That was a outlier. If Trunks really was as strong as SSRosé that time, Future Zamas would be as well. Everyone seemed about equal. Considering what happened some episodes later, Trunks only reaches SSBlue level when his Super Saiyan evolved further.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zamasu55 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:45 am

Grand Marshal 1 wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:41 am I personally place FT arc Merged Zamasu (corrupted and giant forms) at the level of high 2nd UIO Goku from the ToP (the one against Kefla). HOWEVER, Zamasu isn't using this form here. Instead he is in his "Halo" form (also evident from the trailers and the anime). Even so, saying that his zenkai placed him on the same level of power as his FT arc prime, while in a lesser form, means a lot. HOWEVER everyone has gotten stronger, even Jiren. So Zamasu is doing very good against him.

BUT, it isn't enough still. No way would Zamasu be stronger than SSJ3 Full Power Cumber, who was still not a major threat against Jiren. Nonetheless, we didn't get a longer fight with the two. Anyway, the current Zamasu at his "halo" form was shown in the game to be capable of defeating GoD Toppo (who should be at the same level as FT arc Merged Zamasu at his prime, because 3rd Omen Goku was even stronger, so he can't be at that level). As such, low 3rd UIO would be my highball for current Zamasu, who hasn't fought at FP yet.

Lastly, as I said Jiren got stronger, so whether before his FP was comparable to FP 3rd UIO Goku, now he should be above that ToP character. BUT Goku did get stronger too, so his UIO should naturally surpass his 3rd incarnation of the form from the ToP.

Ultimately Jiren FP (current)=UIO Goku (Grand Priest)>>Jiren FP (ToP)≈UIO Goku (3rd time)>>Toppo (GoD, ToP)>=UIO Goku (2nd time)=Zamasu Merged, corrupted, giant, FT arc)

Current halo Zamasu should fal between Goku and Toppo (3rd Omen Goku).
Who said Jiren got stronger?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:53 am

Zamasu55 wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:45 am
Grand Marshal 1 wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:41 am I personally place FT arc Merged Zamasu (corrupted and giant forms) at the level of high 2nd UIO Goku from the ToP (the one against Kefla). HOWEVER, Zamasu isn't using this form here. Instead he is in his "Halo" form (also evident from the trailers and the anime). Even so, saying that his zenkai placed him on the same level of power as his FT arc prime, while in a lesser form, means a lot. HOWEVER everyone has gotten stronger, even Jiren. So Zamasu is doing very good against him.

BUT, it isn't enough still. No way would Zamasu be stronger than SSJ3 Full Power Cumber, who was still not a major threat against Jiren. Nonetheless, we didn't get a longer fight with the two. Anyway, the current Zamasu at his "halo" form was shown in the game to be capable of defeating GoD Toppo (who should be at the same level as FT arc Merged Zamasu at his prime, because 3rd Omen Goku was even stronger, so he can't be at that level). As such, low 3rd UIO would be my highball for current Zamasu, who hasn't fought at FP yet.

Lastly, as I said Jiren got stronger, so whether before his FP was comparable to FP 3rd UIO Goku, now he should be above that ToP character. BUT Goku did get stronger too, so his UIO should naturally surpass his 3rd incarnation of the form from the ToP.

Ultimately Jiren FP (current)=UIO Goku (Grand Priest)>>Jiren FP (ToP)≈UIO Goku (3rd time)>>Toppo (GoD, ToP)>=UIO Goku (2nd time)=Zamasu Merged, corrupted, giant, FT arc)

Current halo Zamasu should fal between Goku and Toppo (3rd Omen Goku).
Who said Jiren got stronger?
Why wouldn't he? His Full Piwer was reagarded as his true might. When Goku awakened the Omen for a 3rd time, one pf the Supreme Kais whose Universes didn't participate in the ToP said that they wanted to see how Goku would perform in the form against a fully powered Jiren.

Jiren never faced an opponent like Goku before (as he had been defeated prior gaining his absolute power) and his Super Full Power, Awakened or Limit Breaking state, was a result of being pushed back by Goku, who was on par with Jiren at the time (in MUI).

Then Jiren even got the upper hand, suggesting an increase in his base power, or else it would be a stalemate, woth Goku gaining a rage boost that totally overpowered Jiren. There is no way Jiren didn't get stronger from the fight (not only finding a new form, but also increasing his base power overall).
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:08 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:47 am
HOWEVER, Zamasu isn't using this form here. Instead he is in his "Halo" form (also evident from the trailers and the anime).
When he emerges from the smoke, he has the Rosé aura that he had only in his Corrupted state and not in his Halo form. Maybe he can switch between the two forms?
Or he just has his Corrupted power on his normal form without any drawbacks now.

I always had Corrupted Zamasu at his max way higher than GoD Toppo and Kefla so it fits nicely.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zamasu55 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:04 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:53 am
Zamasu55 wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:45 am
Grand Marshal 1 wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:41 am I personally place FT arc Merged Zamasu (corrupted and giant forms) at the level of high 2nd UIO Goku from the ToP (the one against Kefla). HOWEVER, Zamasu isn't using this form here. Instead he is in his "Halo" form (also evident from the trailers and the anime). Even so, saying that his zenkai placed him on the same level of power as his FT arc prime, while in a lesser form, means a lot. HOWEVER everyone has gotten stronger, even Jiren. So Zamasu is doing very good against him.

BUT, it isn't enough still. No way would Zamasu be stronger than SSJ3 Full Power Cumber, who was still not a major threat against Jiren. Nonetheless, we didn't get a longer fight with the two. Anyway, the current Zamasu at his "halo" form was shown in the game to be capable of defeating GoD Toppo (who should be at the same level as FT arc Merged Zamasu at his prime, because 3rd Omen Goku was even stronger, so he can't be at that level). As such, low 3rd UIO would be my highball for current Zamasu, who hasn't fought at FP yet.

Lastly, as I said Jiren got stronger, so whether before his FP was comparable to FP 3rd UIO Goku, now he should be above that ToP character. BUT Goku did get stronger too, so his UIO should naturally surpass his 3rd incarnation of the form from the ToP.

Ultimately Jiren FP (current)=UIO Goku (Grand Priest)>>Jiren FP (ToP)≈UIO Goku (3rd time)>>Toppo (GoD, ToP)>=UIO Goku (2nd time)=Zamasu Merged, corrupted, giant, FT arc)

Current halo Zamasu should fal between Goku and Toppo (3rd Omen Goku).
Who said Jiren got stronger?
Why wouldn't he? His Full Piwer was reagarded as his true might. When Goku awakened the Omen for a 3rd time, one pf the Supreme Kais whose Universes didn't participate in the ToP said that they wanted to see how Goku would perform in the form against a fully powered Jiren.

Jiren never faced an opponent like Goku before (as he had been defeated prior gaining his absolute power) and his Super Full Power, Awakened or Limit Breaking state, was a result of being pushed back by Goku, who was on par with Jiren at the time (in MUI).

Then Jiren even got the upper hand, suggesting an increase in his base power, or else it would be a stalemate, woth Goku gaining a rage boost that totally overpowered Jiren. There is no way Jiren didn't get stronger from the fight (not only finding a new form, but also increasing his base power overall).
But this Jiren isn't even FP. He doesn't even have an aura around him. I think he's using his "base" power, the one that used to one-shot Kale and dominate Goku and Hit in the ToP. And considering that in the DBH anime, Mecha Zamasu was never confirmed to have gotten stronger (the arcade game has its own canon, so it doesn't count here), it makes sense, because Shin states Jiren (suppressed) > everything U7 has ever faced.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ruler9871 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:13 pm

Bullza wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:46 am
You're breaking down my post more and more that it's gonna take too long to keep responding especially if I have to more than once so I'll do it an easier way.

1. There was no saying how much power Toppo used but the fact is that Goku fared far better against him than Gohan just as he fared better than Android 17 in the black hole.

2. You bring up the manga and Gohan fighting evenly against Kefla but Krillin implied that Gohan was not as strong as Goku all the same.

3. Just because he was kidding around by putting on a mock bad guy act doesn't mean he was holding back in the actual fight itself. You assume he was holding back and that's all.

4. I didn't say he didn't get up from the kick. Being immortal he'd recover from anything. That he was knocked and struggled to get up from that one kick shows how weak he is when compared to other characters of the Super Saiyan Blue level.

5. The show did point on two occasions when he dropped his guard and was shown to do so. Super Saiyan Trunks fought Zamasu and got overpowered, he was not letting his guard down as he was blocking and dodging attacks moments before, the complete opposite of letting your guard down.

6. Goku said there was something different about him because there was because he was immortal now.

7. The YouTube clip you provided is something I already acknowledged as being Zamasu at his most impressive. He lands one attack in that fight.

In fact I'll do your work for you. I'll go ahead and count how many times Zamasu is actually able to hit someone on his own throughout the whole arc without an interference from Goku Black....

He hits Goku one time head on, he hits Goku one time from behind when his attention was elsewhere, he hits a drained Super Saiyan Trunks one time, he hits Vegeta while he's chasing after Goku Black one time.

That's it, there are no other occasions. In that whole arc and all the fights he's involved in he hits Goku and an exhausted Trunks fair and square once each.

That is how weak and useless he actually is.
1. But that does not prove that he isn't SSB level, only that he's weaker than SSB Goku. And the Black hole is an inconsistency for every character, because it doesn't match with what we see from those character before & after it.

I can also bring up feats like A17 matching Base Toppo in a beam struggle, Ultimate Gohan alone doing better against Koichiarator than both SSB Goku/Vegeta together, A17 tanking hits from a Full Power Jiren that were meant for SSBE Vegeta, Ultimate Gohan doing better against Full Speed Dyspo than Golden Freeza did, Ultimate Gohan matching SSB Goku in an all out fight (and one of the writers saying Gohan and 17 are equals), Ultimate Gohan matching SSJ1 Kefla in the manga, A17 in the end of manga ToP being stated to be equal to Goku in power, and others things with clearly say and show that Gohan and A17 are SSB level in both the anime & manga.

2. Again, being weaker than CSSB Goku =/= not being SSB level. SSJ Kelfa is stronger than Berzerk Kale (who is CSSB level in the manga) so logically Gohan would have to be at least CSSB level to match her.

3. If A17 was going all out against Ribrianne then he wouldn't have been kidding around. logic 101. No one in DB ever kids around in fights were they have to use their all-out full powers. You're being delusional about A17's power. Compare 17 vs Jiren & Toppo (where he's serious), that's when he's going all out, not with Ribrianne & her friends (where he clearly wasn't giving any real effort).

4. He didn't "struggle" in any real sense at all, you are making stuff up on. And your argument is still a fallacy anyway since being weaker than Black arc SSB Goku =/= not being SSb level. RoF Golden Freeza would get one-shotted by Black arc SSB Goku, soes that mean he isn't SSB level either? You aren;t making any sense.

5. When did F.Zamasu ever get overpowered by SSJ1 Trunks? Where's your source?

6. You are being dishonest and delusional again. Goku was clearly referring to his power level, since F.Zamasu blocked a full power SSB Goku punch semi-causally with his ki-blade. He said nothing about his immortality in that moment.

7. The amount of dishonesty in your repeated arguments is too much. F.Zamasu is shown landing several hits on SSB Goku/Vegeta & Rage Trunks every time they fight until ep.63. Hell, F.Zamasu even had SSB Goku on the run in their 1st fight.

You keeping repeating the same debunked claims over & over, without giving any proof each time.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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