Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ruler9871]

And if Zamasu couldn't beat Trunks, why was Black so sure Zamasu could kill Trunks in 64

Arrogance, obviously. No character was more full of himself than Zamasu.

What would he have to be sure about? It was already made very apparent that Rage Trunks was far stronger than Zamasu. Rage Trunks was able to hold his own against Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black even after his Zenkai boost. In fact he held his own against both of them at the same time. Twice.

We already know that Zamasu would never have been strong enough to kill Trunks.

Holding them down doesn't mean that much anyway because Android 16 was able to hold Cell for a while and he was a fly in comparison. Plus he held them for a couple seconds anyway.

That still doesn't refute HeroR's other points.

[ruler9871]

The fact that Zamasu was still able to put up some type of fight with Blue Goku before and after his strength boost just proves TOEI's bad writing again. I'm sorry you are assuming U6 Goku could one shot RoF Golden Freeza. We don't know the growth numbers between arcs. Also, Zamasu taking a shot head on to prove/indulge in his invincibility/immortality does not change the narration of how he died from those attacks from Goku and Trunks and only survived due to regeneration. Stated by Goku, Vegeta and Bulma.

This is circular reasoning. You assume from the start without proof that F.Zamasu isn't SSB level in the anime to argue that him fighting SSB Goku on par is bad writing/inconsistent.

And when did Future Zamasu ever "die"? You are making stuff up. How can he die if he's immortal?

"U6 Goku could one shot RoF Golden Freeza. We don't know the growth numbers between arcs"

The point was that "SSB level" isn't a fixed, narrow tier of strength, and that U6 arc Goku & RoF Freeza aren't equals just because their in the same class of power.

All it means is that RoF Golden Freeza won't be U6 Blue level Goku. Zamas died when Goku stated "you really are immortal" after hitting him with a quick combo in episode 63. Also, in episode 61, Goku blew his head off and Bulma stated Zamas went back to normal after taking that attack. Meaning HEAVY damage was done to the point that it killed Zamas in both instances. SSJ2 Trunks ran him through with his sword in episode 57. Zamas hasn't proven to be Blue level. It's just TOEI's inconsistent writing. However, the story ONLY CONTINUES to praise his immortality/invulnerability, not his strength.

You are being delusional and aren't making any logical sense smh.

1. Ep.63 SSB Goku >>>> Start of Black arc SSB Goku in power. You're still assuming that power levels are fixed narrow tiers and that characters only get stronger with new transformations (which are fallacies).

"All it means is that RoF Golden Freeza won't be U6 Blue level Goku"

Which proves my point. F.Zamasu being much weaker than End of Black arc SSB Goku (who at that point had surpassed Black before pulling out his scythe like Vegeta) doesn't prove that he isn't SSB level in the anime. There is not a single line nor feat in the anime that suggest that F.Zamasu was intended to be only SSJ2 level in that version of the story.

"SSJ2 Trunks ran him through with his sword in episode 57"

Zamasu tanked it on purpose to brag about his immortality, so that doesn't prove a thing. SSJ2 Trunks also kicked Rose Black through a building, does that mean he's only SSJ2 level also?

[ruler9871]

Just because he traded blows with SSB Goku doesn't make him Blue tier.

Yes it does, because SSB Goku was going all out against him in their 1st fight. Its not possible for a massively weaker character to trade blows with a much stronger one in an all-out fight in DB.

F.Zamasu even had SSB Goku on the run at one point in their 1st fight. There's simply no way F.Zamasu isn't SSB level in the anime

After that brief fight he gets overpowered by SS2 Trunks many times.

No he didn't.

[ruler9871]

I think you better pay attention to the narration. The manga explained why SSJ Black was getting the upper hand on Blue Vegeta because of Zenkai. Vegeta then later trained and came back and handled SSJ Rose Black with the red and blue switch up technique.

That's still nonsensical and a bigger asspull than anything in the anime. The gap between SSJ1 and SSB is massive. So are you telling me that Vegeta with that little training managed to got an over 10,000x times boost for his rematch against Black? That makes no sense.

[ZombieVito]

Yes it does, because SSB Goku was going all out against him in their 1st fight.

Citation needed.

[ruler9871]

Yes it does, because SSB Goku was going all out against him in their 1st fight.

Citation needed.

Just look at their 1st fight. Goku was clearly going all-out (without Kaioken) and was blood-lusted against F.Zamasu. He had no reason at all to hold back against him. Its common sense.

[ZombieVito]

Yes it does, because SSB Goku was going all out against him in their 1st fight.

Citation needed.

Just look at their 1st fight. Goku was clearly going all-out (without Kaioken) and was blood-lusted against F.Zamasu. He had no reason at all to hold back against him. Its common sense.

So no citation then. Good to know.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Who said Jiren got stronger?

Why wouldn't he? His Full Piwer was reagarded as his true might. When Goku awakened the Omen for a 3rd time, one pf the Supreme Kais whose Universes didn't participate in the ToP said that they wanted to see how Goku would perform in the form against a fully powered Jiren.

Jiren never faced an opponent like Goku before (as he had been defeated prior gaining his absolute power) and his Super Full Power, Awakened or Limit Breaking state, was a result of being pushed back by Goku, who was on par with Jiren at the time (in MUI).

Then Jiren even got the upper hand, suggesting an increase in his base power, or else it would be a stalemate, woth Goku gaining a rage boost that totally overpowered Jiren. There is no way Jiren didn't get stronger from the fight (not only finding a new form, but also increasing his base power overall).

But this Jiren isn't even FP. He doesn't even have an aura around him. I think he's using his "base" power, the one that used to one-shot Kale and dominate Goku and Hit in the ToP. And considering that in the DBH anime, Mecha Zamasu was never confirmed to have gotten stronger (the arcade game has its own canon, so it doesn't count here), it makes sense, because Shin states Jiren (suppressed) > everything U7 has ever faced.

I agree. The thing is, Jiren's power is far too great for us to comprehend whether he has gotten stronger or not, so if this Zamasu could force ToP Jiren to use, let us say 50% of his Full Power (above what FT arc Zamasu could do, as he would probably push him at 30-40%) then against the current Jiren, the latter would only use 20-25%.

Jiren has had many different states in the anime. I think each one of them showcased a different level of power. It is safe to assume that without an aura, he can probably challenge opponents as strong as Kaio Ken ×20 Blue. With the red glow around his body he could challenge foes of greater might (such as KK×20 Goku (not at maximum power yet) and Blue Evolution Vegeta). With the large aura around him (the one he used to block the fp punch from 1st UIO Goku) he may reach his 75% so the final tri0le aura is for his 100%. If current Zamasu falls between Toppo and 3rd Omen Goku, then compared to this Goku,hould be a KK×20 foe at the very least. This would explain why Jiren didn't power up a single time. He has most definitely gotten stronger.

[ruler9871]

Citation needed.

Just look at their 1st fight. Goku was clearly going all-out (without Kaioken) and was blood-lusted against F.Zamasu. He had no reason at all to hold back against him. Its common sense.

So no citation then. Good to know.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZZ9cWbGF1g
No real rebuttal, good to hear.

[ZombieVito]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZZ9cWbGF1g
No real rebuttal, good to hear.

Show me where it's stated that Goku was blood-lusted. That's pure headcanon on your part.

Again. Just because they trade blows for a brief fight doesn't mean anything. Later on the episode he can't beat SS2 Trunks and would have died twice to him without his immortality.

[Thani]

Just to add to the conversartion, Goku wasn't referring to Zamasu's power alone when he blocked his punch. He thought back on when he felt his ki, and the context of that scene was to search for similarities with Black.

Zamasu's ki was different from back then, which was foreshadowing that this was not Present!Zamasu, irregardless of him being stronger than his AU counterpart.

Also I honestly doubt U6 or FT or even ToP SSB Goku could oneshot RoF Golden Freeza without kaioken. And considering the trashing he took from SSJ Broly in the movie, I'd say even with kaioken he wouldn't be one-shotted.

[Bullza]

You keeping repeating the same debunked claims over & over, without giving any proof each time.

1. There is no inconsistency. Goku was powerful enough to stand up and blast apart the black hole. Android 17 as weak enough to be unable to stand up. They are not on the same level even though they traded blows.

Android 17 did not match Toppo as he was being pushed back and was moments away from being eliminated and he even admitted that he could beat Toppo who was Super Saiyan Blue level.

2. The anime does not have Completed Super Saiyan Blue. They just have Super Saiyan Blue and in both versions Gohan is made out to be weaker than Goku during the Tournament. It's like saying Saonel and Golden Frieza are on the same level.

3. You seem confused by this. Android 17 putting on an act has no bearing on his actual power. That's like saying because Great Saiyaman is putting on an act that he's weaker than Gohan. Goku wasn't any weaker when he was kidding around pretending to be a dick when he fought Uub, he was the same strength putting on an act.

Nowhere did they say that Android 17 was holding back against Ribrianne, just that he was pretending to be a bad guy.

4. Golden Frieza actually was Super Saiyan Blue level because he overpowered Goku. Zamasu isn't Super Saiyan Blue level because he was overpowered by Super Saiyan Trunks. He's Super Saiyan 1 or 2 level as was also shown in the manga.

5. It was when Trunks first fought Zamasu. Overpowered him enough to stab him through then proceeded to stop his attack, dodge his attacks, pummel him and then Final Flash him. Trunks overperformed Zamasu. It's why in the manga they say he's weaker than him.

6. He also never said anything about his power level.

7. No you're just lying there now. I went and checked, I watched every fight involving Zamasu and counted each individual hit. More than you're assuming what happens, I genuinely checked it for real.

The majority of the hits that Zamasu gets in are in unison with Goku Black. Either firing blasts that combine together to hit their enemies or both of them driving a kick into their enemy at the same time.

No, in terms of how many times Zamasu, just by himself, is able to hit someone throughout the entire arc...is 4. No more and no less.

[Miracles]

This is circular reasoning. You assume from the start without proof that F.Zamasu isn't SSB level in the anime to argue that him fighting SSB Goku on par is bad writing/inconsistent.

And when did Future Zamasu ever "die"? You are making stuff up. How can he die if he's immortal?

"U6 Goku could one shot RoF Golden Freeza. We don't know the growth numbers between arcs"

The point was that "SSB level" isn't a fixed, narrow tier of strength, and that U6 arc Goku & RoF Freeza aren't equals just because their in the same class of power.

All it means is that RoF Golden Freeza won't be U6 Blue level Goku. Zamas died when Goku stated "you really are immortal" after hitting him with a quick combo in episode 63. Also, in episode 61, Goku blew his head off and Bulma stated Zamas went back to normal after taking that attack. Meaning HEAVY damage was done to the point that it killed Zamas in both instances. SSJ2 Trunks ran him through with his sword in episode 57. Zamas hasn't proven to be Blue level. It's just TOEI's inconsistent writing. However, the story ONLY CONTINUES to praise his immortality/invulnerability, not his strength.

You are being delusional and aren't making any logical sense smh.

1. Ep.63 SSB Goku >>>> Start of Black arc SSB Goku in power. You're still assuming that power levels are fixed narrow tiers and that characters only get stronger with new transformations (which are fallacies).

"All it means is that RoF Golden Freeza won't be U6 Blue level Goku"

Which proves my point. F.Zamasu being much weaker than End of Black arc SSB Goku (who at that point had surpassed Black before pulling out his scythe like Vegeta) doesn't prove that he isn't SSB level in the anime. There is not a single line nor feat in the anime that suggest that F.Zamasu was intended to be only SSJ2 level in that version of the story.

"SSJ2 Trunks ran him through with his sword in episode 57"

Zamasu tanked it on purpose to brag about his immortality, so that doesn't prove a thing. SSJ2 Trunks also kicked Rose Black through a building, does that mean he's only SSJ2 level also?

You are not reading my statements properly cause I didn't suggest those things you claimed. It didn't matter what level of power Blue Goku was at. Zamas got bodied by SSJ2 Trunks at the start, struggling to kill a fatigue SSJ2 Trunks later, Blue Goku blew off his head and he needed to regenerate from that one attack; Blue Goku smashed Zamas into the ground and he needed to regenerate from that. The fact that he needed to regenerate from those simple attacks proves he isn't Blue level.

I think you better pay attention to the narration. The manga explained why SSJ Black was getting the upper hand on Blue Vegeta because of Zenkai. Vegeta then later trained and came back and handled SSJ Rose Black with the red and blue switch up technique.

That's still nonsensical and a bigger asspull than anything in the anime. The gap between SSJ1 and SSB is massive. So are you telling me that Vegeta with that little training managed to got an over 10,000x times boost for his rematch against Black? That makes no sense.

Did you forget that base Black was already SSJ2 level? SSJ2 Vegeta was SSJ3 level from BOG...Black SSJ is stronger than that. It fits perfectly.

[Hugo Boss]

About the Dragon Ball Super manga’s chapter 47, it seems Moro hasn’t powered-up all that much. Surprised that Merus and Boo did so well.

[Amir]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZZ9cWbGF1g
No real rebuttal, good to hear.

Show me where it's stated that Goku was blood-lusted. That's pure headcanon on your part.

Again. Just because they trade blows for a brief fight doesn't mean anything. Later on the episode he can't beat SS2 Trunks and would have died twice to him without his immortality.

Why does it need to be stated with words to be a fact? It was clearly shown to us that he was blood-lusted. Not everything that isn't stated with words is headcanon.

Goku was clearly pissed off and charged at Zamasu seriously only to be easily blocked. Zamasu had feats to put him around SSJB Goku level from episode 57.

About Trunks overpowering him in SSJ2. Yes, it happened, it was weird and made no sense. You could call either scenario bad writing. But any way you slice it, Zamasu was SSJB level and at the same time he was only SSJ2 level. Just inconsistent writing. We can't confirm how strong the story intended Future Zamasu to be.

[Nevaeh]

iirc an episode guide said Trunks trained with Vegeta before heading back to the future and got stronger. Maybe his SSJ2 form got boosted up to SSB level?

After Broly's insane gains. I wouldn't rule it out

[Zamasu55]

Good luck with what the manga's doing, really.

[dragon boss z]

The new chapter proves Buu isn't nearly as weak as some people claim he is compared to other Super characters, at least in the manga version. He's definitely above every Z fighter that isn't Goku, Vegeta, 17, and Gohan.
Merus' speed seems higher than it should be, but he is propelled by technology and used technology to fight, so I guess that's the explanation there.

[Grand Marshal 1]

It seems like Buu is an adversary that Moro did not anticipate fighting. Considering that he questioned whether Buu was the Grand Supreme Kai, i believe that he disregarded the fact that this "new form" of the Daikaioshin wasn't only the Great Lord of Lords. This was also part of the original pure, Kid Buu, plus the South Supreme Kai.

Now, Buu is capable of surviving some of Moro's attacks due to his regeneration, but the real question is why he remains unaffected by Moro's energy manipulation techniques, as if it was due to Buu's godly connection with the Kais, it wouldn't make sense, as in the first chapter of the arc, they were clearly outmatched by Moro's power.

It could be Buu's magic nature that prevents such techniques being used on him... Nonetheless, Buu deserves to be at the top U7 fighters.

[AvatarReiko]

How strong is Good Buu now compared to Buuhan?