"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[emperior]

I’m still not feeling this arc at all.
It has some interesting moments, such as Vegeta’s recent interactions with the Elder Moori, and I wouldn’t define the story “bad” but something feels off to me. Maybe it’s the pacing, as the arc has been going on for a while now and it still feels like everything which happened so far could have been condensed in fewer chapters.

Moro keeps being uninteresting too as a villain, and I’m beginning to lose hope that he will be anything but an evil foe who does evil things because he’s evil.
I like that Buu is doing something, but it’s quite obvious that the outcome will be in Moro’s favour somehow. Showing Piccolo on Earth makes me hopeful he will get to do something too: maybe Goku will teleport him on New Namek?
Toyotaro has decided to make Instant Transmission a draining technique, and that’s fine by me as the intention is to not make things too easy for Goku and Vegeta, but then I don’t understand how it’s possible that neither Goku nor Vegeta, two seasoned fighters, were able to feel their energies being drained by Moro in the first fight.

And about Vegeta, everything is pointing out to him dying. That’s okay but I hope that, if it happens, it will be handled well as each of his deaths were and with the due respect as Vegeta is now a very important main character.

[dbzfan7]

Probably the best Chapter of this whole arc. Something of interest finally happened.

Moro is still a dreadfully boring villain though, no way Toriyama up with him.

Well he made Jiren, and it's pretty difficult to even try and be more boring than that.

[Bullza]

Well he made Jiren, and it's pretty difficult to even try and be more boring than that.

Jiren was kinda boring, moreso in the manga where really everything is more boring but at least Jiren was made out to be some unstoppable force of nature.

Moro is... basically an equivalent of Bojack or Android 13. Just there.

[Lionel]

At this point in time, I think Moro's dynamism lies in his arcane approach to fighting and general conduct. Almost every villain in the Dragon Ball series has been a tough muscled bruiser and strongman. Despite having a generic hair twirling motive, he's so far been doing more than almost any other villain in the series to escape the conventions of letting his fists talk for him. Obviously it's going to come with its share of flaws, though. Toyotaro could stand to devise some new magical abilities beyond just magic projectiles that look like generic blasts or posing as an anti-Spirit Bomb parasite for the planet that he happens to be skulking on.

Now for motive, there may be a potential subtlety with Moro's relationship with Cranberry. So far it's not much more than a self-serving utilitarian affair. If for example, Moro showed a protective side for Cranberry and allowed him to have a wish granted by Porunga in gratitude for his services then you could start to see something that's a bit more in-depth than a magical sociopathic hermit.

I noticed people have been embellishing Piccolo's potential role here because of a cameo appearance. As awesome as it sounds for everyone's favourite Super Namekian to have a chance to let loose against another murderer of his species, there's no realistic means for him to be on the playing field right now when he's outclassed by standard Super Saiyan form. Piccolo does have magical ability but it's nothing like Dai Kaioshin or even Shin's. Short of him appearing with a rice cooker to seal Moro in using the Mafuba, there's no practical way for him to be involved here.

[Sani007]

I still like this saga. I feel this isn't Toriyama's plot, but even much better than pure Toei DB & DBZ movies or Dragon Ball GT.

[Michsi]

I noticed people have been embellishing Piccolo's potential role here because of a cameo appearance. As awesome as it sounds for everyone's favourite Super Namekian to have a chance to let loose against another murderer of his species, there's no realistic means for him to be on the playing field right now when he's outclassed by standard Super Saiyan form. Piccolo does have magical ability but it's nothing like Dai Kaioshin or even Shin's. Short of him appearing with a rice cooker to seal Moro in using the Mafuba, there's no practical way for him to be involved here.

As much as it pains me to agree with this, I do. I doubt that cameo meant anything more than Beerus' appearance last chapter. It's basically perfunctory, in the sense that it would've been ludicrous to not show any reaction coming from Piccolo and Dende given what is happening on Namek, but if anything, this chapter just made it more clear that Namek was probably chosen to give Vegeta his character moment. Yes, the dragon balls are a reason too, but they could've cut straight to Moro having obliterated the Namekian race and have all dragon balls gathered in a few pages had they wanted to.

It's still very much in the realm of possibility that Piccolo and rest could make their way there. With Moro's main ability + some creativity he can be made useful against such a foe without so much as touching a power-up - but that is likely not going to happen in any way.

[Saiga]

Are people truly this bothered by Boo being able to hold his own against Moro? I'm not disputing that there is a power inconsistency, but is it so bad that it keeps people from enjoying the chapter?

Eh, if there's no explanation whatsoever I would definitely be bothered.

It's not like this is an amazing chapter, after all. Boo getting to fight is pretty much the only good thing in it so if there's a problem with that I can see people disliking the chapter.

Boo just seems versatile as far as power goes and the biggest thing he has on his side is immortality and imperviousness. Technically, Moro did manage to inflict what should've been a lethal blow fairly early on in their fight, but Boo's physical structure is built to withstand these types of attack.

I'm not sure how Boo is so versatile. Like his power changed a lot in the Boo arc chiefly through his different transformations, but each form was still pretty clear in its strength. SSG is meant to be a different level than the levels before it (even recently, Goku said that when fighting Toppo) , and Boo was easily defeated by Beerus.

It's definitely conspicuous for Boo to be outperforming Vegeta, even him taking the lava attack head-on didn't seem to be because of his physical structure because he just brute forced through it instead of regenerating or anything.

[Lionel]

I noticed people have been embellishing Piccolo's potential role here because of a cameo appearance. As awesome as it sounds for everyone's favourite Super Namekian to have a chance to let loose against another murderer of his species, there's no realistic means for him to be on the playing field right now when he's outclassed by standard Super Saiyan form. Piccolo does have magical ability but it's nothing like Dai Kaioshin or even Shin's. Short of him appearing with a rice cooker to seal Moro in using the Mafuba, there's no practical way for him to be involved here.

As much as it pains me to agree with this, I do. I doubt that cameo meant anything more than Beerus' appearance last chapter. It's basically perfunctory, in the sense that it would've been ludicrous to not show any reaction coming from Piccolo and Dende given what is happening on Namek, but if anything, this chapter just made it more clear that Namek was probably chosen to give Vegeta his character moment. Yes, the dragon balls are a reason too, but they could've cut straight to Moro having obliterated the Namekian race and have all dragon balls gathered in a few pages had they wanted to.

It's still very much in the realm of possibility that Piccolo and rest could make their way there. With Moro's main ability + some creativity he can be made useful against such a foe without so much as touching a power-up - but that is likely not going to happen in any way.

I have my own opinions of Vegeta. Beyond his penitent sentiments towards the Namekians, I'm not too keen on him taking the limelight at this point.

Piccolo's materialisation powers has some amazing potential to itself. We hear how the Kaioshins are responsible for creating new worlds. It's plausible that Kami recreated the Moon and Chaozu's body using this power. Dabura used it to create weapons so we know that it's weaponisable. Now imagine applying that kind of ability to broader areas in combat involving biologics and science. Piccolo might be more of a magician than Moro in that case.

Like you said, though, it's best to keep leveled expectations. How ever much headway Toyotaro makes with presenting new concepts, we know he prefers to use Toriyama's model for a lot of things. Piccolo has been out of commission as a viable competitor since the Cell arc. Has a non Saiyan ever made a comeback after being phased out for so long (outside of Buu right now which has to do with Dai Kaioshin's magic and background with Moro)?

[Zamasu55]

Nope, these are things to criticize.
- Caulifla was a Ssj. Freeza went Golden, even if he was holding back she shouldn't have seen him coming at all.
- Kale still eliminated almost everyone. And she got schooled by somebody who later got schooled by ROSHI.
- Kefla should lose to Gohan because he's back to his Buu arc level? Oh my. As if mattered, since Buu arc characters are completely irrelevant since BOG.
- Roshi dodged a punch? Only one? Okay... and no, Jiren wasn't holding back. And in the original manga, characters that don't want to kill someone still manage to one-shot their opponent.
And lastly, Moro, while holding back, was much stronger than Ssj Vegeta, who has surpassed Good Buu like 3 arcs ago.

Not a single thing you said makes an iota of sense as a rebuttal to anything I've said. Literally all of your points are "I don't care what happened. It should be how I want it to be."

If this is how you truly feel, stop reading/watching stories; start making power level charts in a power level group.

Yeahhh, nice reply mate.

[Michsi]

I'm not sure how Boo is so versatile. Like his power changed a lot in the Boo arc chiefly through his different transformations, but each form was still pretty clear in its strength. SSG is meant to be a different level than the levels before it (even recently, Goku said that when fighting Toppo) , and Boo was easily defeated by Beerus.

It's definitely conspicuous for Boo to be outperforming Vegeta, even him taking the lava attack head-on didn't seem to be because of his physical structure because he just brute forced through it instead of regenerating or anything.

Admittedly, I only pay the barest amount of attention to power scaling, and that only because I do believe there should be some consistency to who can do what and to whom - if characters can just attain certain levels of power willy-nilly whenever the situation calls for it just for the sake of "Fuck YEAH!" moments then tension goes right out the window.

But that wasn't really the case for me here. I knew on some level that this wasn't were Boo is supposed to be at power-wise, but neither did it strike me as something as bewildering as having Roshi take on Jiren. I know there's explanation for why Roshi managed to dodge a couple of blows, but it still doesn't help make it believable when power difference has been presented in such a way that most would've thought that Jiren could pulverize Roshi just by blinking in his direction. I didn't quite get that feeling here.

Has a non Saiyan ever made a comeback after being phased out for so long

Yes, and it was a big comeback no less : Android 17. Roshi, too, if you count the fact that he had been benched since the middle of the King Piccolo arc and was brought to the TOP.

[Lionel]

Has a non Saiyan ever made a comeback after being phased out for so long

Yes, and it was a big comeback no less : Android 17. Roshi, too, if you count the fact that he had been benched since the middle of the King Piccolo arc and was brought to the TOP.

I mean on a more consistent line of progression type of scale. #17 was handled in a way that was spontaneous and without prior foundation when you think about it. His flame sparked brightly for a brief time then was extinguished afterwards. Roshi is sort of the same albeit with the prior RoF arc leaving him with two arcs to make an impression instead of just one.

The competitiveness of the fighters back in the days of the DB tournaments and early DBZ is what comes to mind when I think of them holding onto some form viability.

[Michsi]

Has a non Saiyan ever made a comeback after being phased out for so long

Yes, and it was a big comeback no less : Android 17. Roshi, too, if you count the fact that he had been benched since the middle of the King Piccolo arc and was brought to the TOP.

I mean on a more consistent line of progression type of scale. #17 was handled in a way that was spontaneous and without prior foundation when you think about it. His flame sparked brightly for a brief time then was extinguished afterwards. Roshi is sort of the same albeit with the prior RoF arc leaving him with two arcs to make an impression instead of just one.

The competitiveness of the fighters back in the days of the DB tournaments and early DBZ is what comes to mind when I think of them holding onto some form viability.

We don't know if Android has been set aside for good or if he'll make an appearance again and be useful. He was brought back just an arc ago. What Android 17's inclusion, not to mention the almost ostentatious avoidance of providing a worthwhile explanation for his increase in power shows is that the story is willing to use anybody if they so feel like it, consistent line of progression of power scale be damned.
And yes, next to Android 17 we now have Boo, who apparently also is suddenly way stronger than he should be. That's already 2 examples, 3 if we count Roshi's case.

[Lionel]

Yes, and it was a big comeback no less : Android 17. Roshi, too, if you count the fact that he had been benched since the middle of the King Piccolo arc and was brought to the TOP.

I mean on a more consistent line of progression type of scale. #17 was handled in a way that was spontaneous and without prior foundation when you think about it. His flame sparked brightly for a brief time then was extinguished afterwards. Roshi is sort of the same albeit with the prior RoF arc leaving him with two arcs to make an impression instead of just one.

The competitiveness of the fighters back in the days of the DB tournaments and early DBZ is what comes to mind when I think of them holding onto some form viability.

We don't know if Android has been set aside for good or if he'll make an appearance again and be useful. He was brought back just an arc ago. What Android 17's inclusion, not to mention the almost ostentatious avoidance of providing a worthwhile explanation for his increase in power shows is that the story is willing to use anybody if they so feel like it, consistent line of progression of power scale be damned.
And yes, next to Android 17 we now have Boo, who apparently also is suddenly way stronger than he should be. That's already 2 examples, 3 if we count Roshi's case.

Well technically two arcs go. The original motivation was rooted in a necessity for having a full roster of ten members in preparation for the Tournament of Power. #17's common habit involves protecting his island and remaining uninvolved in world jeopardising affairs usually. Cyborgs have the excuse of being "genetically modified", according to Bulma. It's still a vaguely defined pretext but more than what can be said for others, I believe. Buu's pretext lies in the entity that he formerly was with a unique connection to the villain of this arc who he himself happens to be unorthodox with his usage of magic instead of just raw power. It's a kind of specialism that probably won't be there once this arc ends.

An arc to arc level of consistent involvement doesn't seem to be in the cards at this time.

[Michsi]

Well technically two arcs go. The original motivation was rooted in a necessity for having a full roster of ten members in preparation for the Tournament of Power. #17's common habit involves protecting his island and remaining uninvolved in world jeopardising affairs usually. Cyborgs have the excuse of being "genetically modified", according to Bulma. It's still a vaguely defined pretext but more than what can be said for others, I believe. Buu's pretext lies in the entity that he formerly was with a unique connection to the villain of this arc who he himself happens to be unorthodox with his usage of magic instead of just raw power. It's a kind of specialism that probably won't be there once this arc ends.

An arc to arc level of consistent involvement doesn't seem to be in the cards at this time.

Broly doesn't count as an arc, not until we see if the anime decides to skip it as the manga did. It was also developed at the same time as the TOP was being created so how Android 17's presence would be accepted by the fans had yet to be determined.

The core idea remains the same- pretext can be created for any character, basically. There was no need to involve Boo and the Kaioshin's past , Moro could've just as easily been somone that predates either of them or from a demon dimension or whatever- but they chose to give him a connection with a member that hasn't really been relevant for years. Same as with Android 17, they could've just chosen to ignore his existence and taken Yamcha or either of the kids or Future Trunks. Speaking of which: the whole Zamasu arc happened because they wanted Future Trunks back and everything evolved from there. Character determines pretext, not the other way around.

[Lionel]

Well technically two arcs go. The original motivation was rooted in a necessity for having a full roster of ten members in preparation for the Tournament of Power. #17's common habit involves protecting his island and remaining uninvolved in world jeopardising affairs usually. Cyborgs have the excuse of being "genetically modified", according to Bulma. It's still a vaguely defined pretext but more than what can be said for others, I believe. Buu's pretext lies in the entity that he formerly was with a unique connection to the villain of this arc who he himself happens to be unorthodox with his usage of magic instead of just raw power. It's a kind of specialism that probably won't be there once this arc ends.

An arc to arc level of consistent involvement doesn't seem to be in the cards at this time.

Broly doesn't count as an arc, not until we see if the anime decides to skip it as the manga did. It was also developed at the same time as the TOP was being created so how Android 17's presence would be accepted by the fans had yet to be determined.

The core idea remains the same- pretext can be created for any character, basically. There was no need to involve Buu and the Kaioshin's past , Moro could've just as easily been somone that predates either of them or from a demon dimension or whatever- but they chose to give him a connection with a member that hasn't really been relevant for years. Same as with Android 17, they could've just chosen to ignore his existence and taken Yamcha or either of the kids or Future Trunks. The whole Zamasu arc happened because they wanted Future Trunks back and everything evolved from there. Character determines pretext, not the other way around.

If I'm not mistaken, Toyotaro does pay a brief homage to the Broly arc; lending credence to its officiation as a legitimate arc. If nothing else the manga's rendering carries about as much validity to itself as the final portion of the RoF arc which Toyotaro decided to skip but it still existed and took place.

The Kaioshins have had a connective affiliation in some form or another to Super for the most part -- be it through their life-link to the Hakaishin or as a cog in the oiled machine that is the celestial hierarchy. Outside of the RoF arc, there's been some type of involvement with them. I think the guest star appearances is the model which Toyotaro has taken to utilise for non-tournament arcs since the beginning. It doesn't exactly have the model which I'm referencing as a consistent progressional line. Ironically, the prevention of the kids from fighting has been one of the most consistent narrative decisions made since the RoF arc (barring a few anime exclusive moments).

[Saiga]

Admittedly, I only pay the barest amount of attention to power scaling, and that only because I do believe there should be some consistency to who can do what and to whom - if characters can just attain certain levels of power willy-nilly whenever the situation calls for it just for the sake of "Fuck YEAH!" moments then tension goes right out the window.

I am fully in agreement with this sentiment. It's one of my major gripes with the animated version of Super, or video game stories that go too hard on fanservice.

But that wasn't really the case for me here. I knew on some level that this wasn't were Boo is supposed to be at power-wise, but neither did it strike me as something as bewildering as having Roshi take on Jiren. I know there's explanation for why Roshi managed to dodge a couple of blows, but it still doesn't help make it believable when power difference has been presented in such a way that most would've thought that Jiren could pulverize Roshi just by blinking in his direction. I didn't quite get that feeling here.

Roshi is definitely the most extreme example this manga has had, but I find the 17 comparison interesting. I'm not a fan of the push he got or how haphazard it was, but there was the explanation that he was training and it took place over a time period that... helps, at least. It's certainly not as bad as Freeza's improvements. In the manga he reaches SS2 or 3 level, which isn't anywhere near as bad as the anime having him compete with Blue.

However, we haven't been given any indication that Boo has done anything to become stronger. He's been sleeping for most of the other arcs, and not a lot of time has passed since he was beaten up by Beerus. So even if it would be less of a power-jump than 17 (not sure if this is really true) it'd be worse to me if absolutely no explanation was presented for it.

[Michsi]

If I'm not mistaken, Toyotaro does pay a brief homage to the Broly arc; lending credence to its officiation as a legitimate arc. If nothing else the manga's rendering carries about as much validity to itself as the final portion of the RoF arc which Toyotaro decided to skip but it still existed and took place.

The Kaioshins have had a connective affiliation in some form or another to Super for the most part -- be it through their life-link to the Hakaishin or as a cog in the oiled machine that is the celestial hierarchy. Outside of the RoF arc, there's been some type of involvement with them. I think the guest star appearances is the model which Toyotaro has taken to utilise for non-tournament arcs since the beginning. It doesn't exactly have the model which I'm referencing as a consistent progressional line. Ironically, the prevention of the kids from fighting has been one of the most consistent narrative decisions made since the RoF arc (barring a few anime exclusive moments).

Which still doesn't grant them the title "arcs" with the likes of FT and TOP and so on, as in a long-running, developed over several chapter/episode long self contained story. If we're talking about entries to the Super franchise, maybe, but other than that, the Super manga skips it with only the briefest of vague mentions, so we have no idea who would've turned up had they been given a longer runtime . But again, Broly and TOP were created simultaneously, so Android 17's recenption had yet to come in.

But regardless, I'm sticking to the core of my point. What you are describing with the Kaioshins is, again, just pretext. There was nothing that makes it an absolute necessity for them to be linked with the main bad guy in such a way and even less so the Kaioshin's of the past that were barely even mentioned in the saga that they first appeared in. Or Boo himself. Whatever narrative or in-universe reason we can find, none of that was necessary for Moro to exist or be a threat to Goku & co.

[Lionel]

If I'm not mistaken, Toyotaro does pay a brief homage to the Broly arc; lending credence to its officiation as a legitimate arc. If nothing else the manga's rendering carries about as much validity to itself as the final portion of the RoF arc which Toyotaro decided to skip but it still existed and took place.

The Kaioshins have had a connective affiliation in some form or another to Super for the most part -- be it through their life-link to the Hakaishin or as a cog in the oiled machine that is the celestial hierarchy. Outside of the RoF arc, there's been some type of involvement with them. I think the guest star appearances is the model which Toyotaro has taken to utilise for non-tournament arcs since the beginning. It doesn't exactly have the model which I'm referencing as a consistent progressional line. Ironically, the prevention of the kids from fighting has been one of the most consistent narrative decisions made since the RoF arc (barring a few anime exclusive moments).

Which still doesn't grant them the title "arcs" with the likes of FT and TOP and so on, as in a long-running, developed over several chapter/episode long self contained story. If we're talking about entries to the Super franchise, maybe, but other than that, the Super manga skips it with only the briefest of vague mentions, so we have no idea who would've turned up had they been given a longer runtime . But again, Broly and TOP were created simultaneously, so Android 17's recenption had yet to come in.

But regardless, I'm sticking to the core of my point. What you are describing with the Kaioshins is, again, just pretext. There was nothing that makes it an absolute necessity for them to be linked with the main bad guy in such a way and even less so the Kaioshin's of the past that were barely even mentioned in the saga that they first appeared in. Or Boo himself. Whatever narrative or in-universe reason we can find, none of that was necessary for Moro to exist or be a threat to Goku & co.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree. Our opinions on this issue clearly are different. It could pan out the way you describe. I myself have my own opinions reserved for the time being. Consider this my concession to the general argument.

[Michsi]

We're just going to have to agree to disagree. Our opinions on this issue clearly are different. It could pan out the way you describe. I myself have my own opinions reserved for the time being. Consider this my concession to the general argument.

To be fair I have a hard time seeing where the argument even stems from since we started out pretty much agreeing on stuff. We both believed that Piccolo being useful again is well withing the realm of possibility, even if unlikely, and I gave examples of characters that were previously also deemed unsalvageable as far as relevancy goes as means to reinforce that opinion. Over all, I still think we're on the same page.

[TheSaiyanGod]

And Goku has done the same to many planets with no damage being talked about, unless we're gonna find out that Frieza was a convenient scapegoat and Goku was the one who accidentally destroyed Namek.

So... What's your point again? That's it's weird that Vegeta should be asking for the planet to be restored to its normal state before Moro invaded? Is this supposed to be OOC? Pretty sure Moro taking energy from the planet itself constitutes a lot more harm to it than busting up some mountains. Especially when we've seen he can literally suck the energy dry from planets beyond anything Goku has ever done with Spirit bomb.

So, after seeing Ssj Caulifla holding her own against Golden Freeza, Ssj Berserker Kale slaughtering half the fighters during the ToP and then losing to the weakest Pride Troopers, Ssj Kefla losing to Gohan and freaking Muten Roshi dodging freaking Jiren's punches, we have a new low, ladies and gentlemen:

Good Buu, the weakest version of Majin Buu, beating the crap out of somebody who was trading blows with Ssj God Vegeta way before absorbing his ki.

Caulifla never stood a chance against Golden Frieza who likes to play with his food.

Kale literally burned through most of her energy before she tackled on the Pride Troopers. This is part of her lore as the LSSJ, where she self-destructs because of her power, and Vegeta mentioned it.

Gohan got significantly stronger. That's how DB operates. He was holding back all the time until he faced Kefla.

Roshi is nothing compared to Jiren. Jiren neck chopped him, which is codeword in DB for lightly tapping someone out when the power difference is enormous.

Buu/Daikaioshin is a counter to Moro. No absorption = no getting stronger for Moro, which is not what happened to Vegeta. He was taking energy from him and Goku right from the start.

Your idea and placement of power levels argument is just wrong here, and you used bad examples.

- It's Golden Freeza, a god tier transformation, versus a common Super Saiyan. He should've stomped her regardless of how serious he was. This is how Dragon Ball works... worked, actually.

- So I assume that Kale would've lost to Roshi, who literally makes a fool out of the fourth strongest person in U11?

- Yeah, but you should also mention what happens before all of that.

- So Moro is weaker than a Ssj now? Because he was dominating him way before Vegeta got drained out.

Also, this is Good Buu, the weakest version of all.

Come on, it's been a long time since big differences in PDL are not so relevant. In the original manga itself, that changed a lot during the sagas (at first a difference of 200 PDL was enough for someone to defeat the other with one blow, but in the end someone tens of times weaker than the opponent could already face him). Freeza was not only restraining himself against Caulifla, he was also playing with her (and Kale at the same time).

And you're really ignoring the whole context of the scenes just to criticize. It was clear that the Pride Troopers only managed to contain Kale because she was losing energy due to her transformation, that is, she was weaker. And considering that the Vision does not automatically restore the power of users (Vegetto needs to eat a Senzu to confront Zamasu), then it is plausible to say that Kefla was not at full power against Gohan (not to mention that Kefla in the manga never was established as being as strong as in the anime, because in the manga Caulifla neither has SSJ2 and Kale was weakened)