"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[namekiansaiyan]

I noticed people have been embellishing Piccolo's potential role here because of a cameo appearance. As awesome as it sounds for everyone's favourite Super Namekian to have a chance to let loose against another murderer of his species, there's no realistic means for him to be on the playing field right now when he's outclassed by standard Super Saiyan form. Piccolo does have magical ability but it's nothing like Dai Kaioshin or even Shin's. Short of him appearing with a rice cooker to seal Moro in using the Mafuba, there's no practical way for him to be involved here.

I think the most obvious answer is Namkeian fusion.

[TKA]

Yeahhh, nice reply mate.

Sorry, man, but I'm not gonna sit here and argue with you because I won't get anywhere. Your reply made it super obvious that you completely reject the story and are making up your own canon. I have nothing to add until you can suitably reply to this:

Because you removed the context from all of those. If you're being sincere, this post belongs on youtube.

Frieza NEVER fought Caulifla seriously. Kale was losing because every seasoned fighter figured her out because wild animals are stupid. Kafla should lose to Gohan, given the fact that Kale and Caulifla were injured and fatigued when they fused and the fact that Gohan is back to his Buu arc level. Roshi dodged a punch from Jiren when he was holding back because he actively was trying not to kill anyone; the second Jiren saw Roshi dodge him, he simply held back less and then instantly knocked him out. Finally, it was stated that while Moro was fighting Goku and Vegeta he was actively absorbing their ki and powering himself up with the planet's genki.

There are legitimate things to criticize, but this ain't it, chief.

Otherwise you're just derailing discussion with bad faith arguments that help no one. Find any of the numerous legitimate criticisms for the arc, or go play in the youtube comments of some shitty DB youtuber's video, because this isn't the quality of posting that should be on kanzenshuu.

[omaro34]

Awesome that Buu is getting a chance to shine. Certainly a breath of fresh air, it can't always be just Goku and Vegeta.

But don't kid yourselves. How many times have they teased us with Piccolo doing something meaningful? Unfortunately, just accept it'll never happen.

Vegeta had some great character development in this chapter.

[sunsetshimmer]

I'm actually enjoying Moro's arc so far. It's easily the best arc of Super and stomps all previous arcs combined.
Story is pretty interesting, villain is cool, i like Vegeta worrying about Namekians holding a grudge for his past actions.

But, DBS manga was always better than anime anyway. If this arc gets animated, it might be garbage as well. Let's hope it won't.

The only issue i have is the classic Super's non existing power scaling. Buu shouldn't be able to do anything to Moro unless he somehow got stronger by recovering Daikaioshin's memories which would be dumb anyway.

offtopic:

I can't stop comparing Moro to Grogar from MLP, villain who debuted in newest season. They look quite similar
Also, he reminds me of Tirek from MLP as well, not only visually they look a bit similar but also both escaped prison and absorb energy of living beings to restore their old power. I like this small coincidence of such different shows having such similar villains

Grogar (top) and Tirek (below)

[batistabus]

Hell yeah, this is the chapter I've been waiting for.

-I like how Moro continues to treat Cranberry.

-Moro sensing the Dragon Balls is a great idea. Why the hell not? He's a mage, they're magic, and we know they they radiate energy. The way that information is revealed also leads me to believe that Moro was developing this ability in the moment, which could explain why things took longer than one might expect.

-Piccolo tease?

-Some great horror imagery of Moro killing the Namekian that was escaping with the DB.

-The leaks had me hesitant, but I'm really liking the way they're continuing to build on Vegeta's remorse. While Vegeta has certainly killed innocents in the time before his appearance in the series, his murder of that Namekian village is really the last truly evil act that hasn't been corrected looming over him. By the end of this, if Vegeta were to die, I could see him going to heaven.

-I love the attitude we see in Goku/Vegeta's last stand, although we know that's not what it's going to be, and it's not the first time they've had a moment like this in the manga.

-I don't care what anyone says, Merus was badass this chapter. He's strength isn't...strength, it's being fast and tricky. I totally buy that he's able to accomplish something impressive, even if it's inconsequential in the grand scheme of the arc. To say he feels like a try-hard Deviantart character at this point just seems cynical to me. I like how we got an answer about the purpose of his watch gadget. Jiren's gadget was our only point of reference, and it works in a similarly enough. It also reminds me of when the Goku Black arc was teased and all we had to go on was evil Goku with white boots and Potara. Aside from that, I'm starting to think more and more that Merus may be an artificial human.

-I love the expression on Moro's face when Merus says "Get HIM out here!!"

-Everything with Jaco and Boo is exactly what I've been hoping for with this arc. I was worried when I saw the leaks that said "Boo regained the Dai Kaioshin's memories" that Boo might be too serious, but he's just as much of a buffoon as ever.

-While I love a totally incompetent Galactic Patrol, it's still great to see that they at least have their shit together in some aspects.

-Boo's not sleeping! Woo!! While fights aren't usually my favorite part of Dragon Ball, I do still enjoy them. Seeing Boo kick ass with that dumb look on his face really scratched an itch I needed scratched.

-Does anyone actually think this arc is ending soon? Obviously Boo won't beat Moro, but this was a very enjoyable step of the journey.

-I can't agree that "this arc is only fights like a Toei movie". That certainly wasn't the case in this chapter, anyway. Every chapter of Super from the beginning has had at least one fight scene, and this one had 2 (although Merus' involvement is hardly a fight). There's so much going on here to enjoy besides fighting.

[Miracles]

I thought the chapter was slow. Nothing really happened other than some development on Moro's powers where he can sense Dragonballs, Vegeta's remorse [which I think is a little forced] and Merus showing up with Buu and battling Moro. Which we find out that Moro can not absorb Buu's powers due to Dai Kai being inside of him. However, Moro asked the question where did Dai Kai/Buu get this strength from. We will find that out next chapter.

[PFM18]

Probably the best Chapter of this whole arc. Something of interest finally happened.

Moro is still a dreadfully boring villain though, no way Toriyama up with him.

Well he made Jiren, and it's pretty difficult to even try and be more boring than that.

I disagree that Jiren was boring in the first place, most people mistakenly confuse him for a Batman ripoff and don't understand the character when they call him boring.

Moro is too early to call.

[dbzfan7]

Well he made Jiren, and it's pretty difficult to even try and be more boring than that.

Jiren was kinda boring, moreso in the manga where really everything is more boring but at least Jiren was made out to be some unstoppable force of nature.

Moro is... basically an equivalent of Bojack or Android 13. Just there.

Can't say I agree. Jiren is super boring even by that standard. Kid Boo had the wacky cartoon over the top style to him/craziness to at least make him a fun force of nature. Old Broly had the satanic blood knight force of nature thing which while not great, is still better than stoic nature as far as I'm concerned. If anything Jiren felt more like Super Android 13 who just talked a bit more. Bojack is boring, but still I find less boring than Jiren. Mainly cause his one redeeming feature for me to not be ashamed of teaming up with his mooks and then using them as shields. Not great, but eh it was a point I could give.

Moro I find has an interesting backstory related to the Kaioshin who all we knew before just all got slaughtered by Boo. Not an amazing backstory so far, but still better than Jirens generic drivel. His design is a million times better than Jirens which is the most generic design that could possibly be made. His fighting style is also more interesting than Jirens straightforward style. He poses an all new kind of challenge to be able to drain you while fighting him, so being stronger doesn't matter. I also find him keeping around that Freeza Soldier alone intriguing. Mainly cause he has like 0 reason to do so.

I ain't saying Moro is amazing. But I can't possibly see him as worse than Bojack, 13, or especially Jiren. 2 have the excuse of being movie villains that don't affect the main plot, while the other one drags and drags everything down while offering pretty much nothing in return.

[Saiga]

But don't kid yourselves. How many times have they teased us with Piccolo doing something meaningful? Unfortunately, just accept it'll never happen.

I'm pretty sure this is something the fans do to themselves more than anything else.

Most recently I remember an inappropriate level of expectations regarding Piccolo's role in the Broly movie just because he had artwork released. That really isn't a tease, he had artwork because he was one of the few characters to appear in the film.

I don't think the series has ever really teased him more than what he got. Even in the universe 6 arc, I didn't expect him to get more than one fight, nor for him to win. That arc definitely ended up way too Goku/Vegeta centric but that's due to Monaka being a joke (which I don't mind) and Boo being written out (which is definitely worse).

[Michsi]

But don't kid yourselves. How many times have they teased us with Piccolo doing something meaningful? Unfortunately, just accept it'll never happen.

I'm pretty sure this is something the fans do to themselves more than anything else.

Yes, but for good reasons. Super is going down the path of fan service more than anything, and if this is one of the top most talked about issues, then why not expect more. He is a popular character, far more popular than what you'd expect given what's been done with him post Cell and iconic enough for the franchise to keep using him in promotional material and even give him an appearance in a movie he had nothing to do.

[Saiga]

But don't kid yourselves. How many times have they teased us with Piccolo doing something meaningful? Unfortunately, just accept it'll never happen.

I'm pretty sure this is something the fans do to themselves more than anything else.

Yes, but for good reasons. Super is going down the path of fan service more than anything, and if this is one of the top most talked about issues, then why not expect more. He is a popular character, far more popular than what you'd expect given what's been done with him post Cell and iconic enough for the franchise to keep using him in promotional material and even give him an appearance in a movie he had nothing to do.

I don't find those good reasons at all. He hasn't done anything meaningful in the story for a long time (at least, not meaningful in the way most of the fanbase wants) so I see absolutely no reason to continue interpreting everything as a hint for this.

Even the Super anime's fanservice fell flat for pretty much every character they tried for, except for 17 who had a major push. Further that's the kind of meaningless fanservice where they'll just write illogical plots and then forget the character later, like they tried to do with the humans.

[Michsi]

I'm pretty sure this is something the fans do to themselves more than anything else.

Yes, but for good reasons. Super is going down the path of fan service more than anything, and if this is one of the top most talked about issues, then why not expect more. He is a popular character, far more popular than what you'd expect given what's been done with him post Cell and iconic enough for the franchise to keep using him in promotional material and even give him an appearance in a movie he had nothing to do.

I don't find those good reasons at all. He hasn't done anything meaningful in the story for a long time (at least, not meaningful in the way most of the fanbase wants) so I see absolutely no reason to continue interpreting everything as a hint for this.

Even the Super anime's fanservice fell flat for pretty much every character they tried for, except for 17 who had a major push. Further that's the kind of meaningless fanservice where they'll just write illogical plots and then forget the character later, like they tried to do with the humans.

Well, you can't. If you're not a fan of him or like this character even a little, there's no way you would interpret or expect anything regarding this character.
As I said so many times before, 17 is a perfect example for how willing they are to do stuff like this. Mai too, to a lesser extent. And fan service itself is neither meaningless nor does it fall flat if the execution is done right and that is where Super usually falters. Roshi's episode in TOP, for example, was very well received in Japan, so if done right, no matter how nonsensical it may sound on paper, people will love it and that's what it all comes down to.
Nobody, or at least very few, care that he hasn't done anything meaningful as a reason for him to never do anything again. When it is brought it's usually as a gripe, not an argument against him getting a better role.

[Saiga]

Roshi's episode was abjectly awful and not the standard I want the series to try to emulate. Just because something is popular doesn't mean I have to agree - it was an absolute disservice to his character arc.

The fanservice moments i'm talking about are the ones where my sentiment is exactly how you described characters just attaining whatever power they need for a 'hype' moment with no care for the tension. That's mostly what the anime version of the TOP was. That's what Roshi's episodes were (along with some incredibly aggressive insults levied toward his original characterization or the idea that he could peacefully retire).

And I don't agree with your argument that I can't see signs of it because I don't like him (which by itself is untrue), because there are several characters I do like who I don't expect to see things out of - either because of the current direction of Super, or because they don't have a very good reason to be.

I just don't think 17 is a good example for how Piccolo could be given a major role again. 17 feels like he was used specifically because he isn't around as often as Piccolo, and can be written out with no effort. That's not the kind of whim I'd rely on for Piccolo to get stronger.

Obviously, at this point it's possible for anyone to get pushed. But I don't see that as a reasonable basis to expect it, especially not when such expectations had been around years before we had any such examples to support it.

[Michsi]

*snip*

Yes, well, what your post implies is that it all comes down to personal preference and this is your personal preference in regards to fan service. Not everyone sees it that way, or I'd dare say most. Fan service has always been one of dragon balls main driving forces, since the very beginning. Toriyama himself has stated popularity or fan reception as a reason for him doing this or changing that numerous times. It all comes down to execution. To quote Toriyama "Dragon Ball is a story where anything goes."
Note that none of this means I'm absolutely certain Piccolo will get something worthwhile, at least in the manga, (I absolutely loved his presence in the TOP in the anime with the exception of how he got eliminated) just that I'm against the argument that there is no reason to hope he ever will.

[Bullza]

Can't say I agree. Jiren is super boring even by that standard. Kid Boo had the wacky cartoon over the top style to him/craziness to at least make him a fun force of nature.

Well Kid Buu was a different force of nature, just a rampaging beast that destroyed everything in his path but he always came across as beatable. You knew they were going to defeat him in the end.

Jiren was portrayed in such a way that even though we knew for sure that Universe 7 was going to survive, people still genuinely didn't know if the heroes were going to win or not. A lot of people thought Jiren was going to win.

Theres never been an antagonist that came across as unbeatable as him aside from perhaps Broly but that was just a short movie anyway.

Besides which he is only a tournament antagonist so he's going to be limited to begin with because the story and events don't revolve around him. It's like comparing Hit to Goku Black.

Moro should have more room to open up but he's equally as two dimensional. So far he's just evil but in a generic way, not in a charismatic way like Frieza.

There was some potential to be had with his use of Magic but it's not even that unique, it mainly revolves around draining and absorbing energy to get stronger which is a gimmick that was already done with the Androids.

The design is more unique than Jiren's but it doesn't even feel like it belongs to the same series. It is kind of just another humanoid animal like Beerus so it's not overly unique but it just doesn't look like something Toriyama would have come up with.

He ain't particularly awful but at least so far and compared to other main villains, not tournament ones...yeah he seems more like an old movie villain like Bojack except he has a backstory.

[TKA]

-I can't agree that "this arc is only fights like a Toei movie". That certainly wasn't the case in this chapter, anyway. Every chapter of Super from the beginning has had at least one fight scene, and this one had 2 (although Merus' involvement is hardly a fight). There's so much going on here to enjoy besides fighting.

Every Toei movie is "Bad guy shows up, the heroes fight, there's some hijinks and gags, final fight"

That's boring. That's the same formula here. I'd rather more chapters without fighting while both sides do other things, and that way the anticipation of when they come to blows will grow and grow until the crescendo.

There needs to be more going on. As is, this is all too straightforward.

Mind you, this is even ignoring the fact that this arc doesn't seem to have a theme. This is the part that's the biggest missing piece for me as well.

[PFM18]

"Bad guy shows up, the heroes fight, there's some hijinks and gags, final fight"

You could literally summarize every non-tournament arc that way in this entire franchise if you were to simplify it enough. There's variation in who the bad guys are, how they got their power, whether or not there are additional bad guys, whether or not they introduce new characters alongside the "bad guys", but that basic premise ALWAYS rings true. What separates an actual quality arc from a shitty Toei movie is not the basic premise of the arc.

[dbzfan7]

Can't say I agree. Jiren is super boring even by that standard. Kid Boo had the wacky cartoon over the top style to him/craziness to at least make him a fun force of nature.

Well Kid Buu was a different force of nature, just a rampaging beast that destroyed everything in his path but he always came across as beatable. You knew they were going to defeat him in the end.

Jiren was portrayed in such a way that even though we knew for sure that Universe 7 was going to survive, people still genuinely didn't know if the heroes were going to win or not. A lot of people thought Jiren was going to win.

Theres never been an antagonist that came across as unbeatable as him aside from perhaps Broly but that was just a short movie anyway.

Besides which he is only a tournament antagonist so he's going to be limited to begin with because the story and events don't revolve around him. It's like comparing Hit to Goku Black.

Moro should have more room to open up but he's equally as two dimensional. So far he's just evil but in a generic way, not in a charismatic way like Frieza.

There was some potential to be had with his use of Magic but it's not even that unique, it mainly revolves around draining and absorbing energy to get stronger which is a gimmick that was already done with the Androids.

The design is more unique than Jiren's but it doesn't even feel like it belongs to the same series. It is kind of just another humanoid animal like Beerus so it's not overly unique but it just doesn't look like something Toriyama would have come up with.

He ain't particularly awful but at least so far and compared to other main villains, not tournament ones...yeah he seems more like an old movie villain like Bojack except he has a backstory.

Kid Boo though had personality just from his shenanigans. It's not particularly compelling, but it's visually interesting and humorous at the very least.

Honestly I think Jiren was basically holding the audience hostage. He's so bland and boring that honestly I think he pissed people more off rather than being a good foil. Like his downfall was rooted for so he'd just go away. He has 0 charisma, no good backstory, bland moves, bland design. There's pretty much nothing interesting about him. It's so bad we have to constantly be told that Jiren is this awesome amazing thing rather than being convinced beyond big power level.

I don't think so at all. There's plenty of tournament antagonists even in the series proper more compelling than Jiren. Honestly pick any of them they all surpass Jiren. It gets worse if we branch out into other anime/manga.

I think that's fair to say. Though he's had a lot less time than Freeza as well. I still can't see him as any less compelling than Jiren. Being Stoic alone is a tough archetype to make interesting. We still don't even know what he wants other than to consume planets energy/people. I still don't even know why he keeps Cranberry around which alone interests me. That's one relationship I don't think is gonna turn out well in the end, but possibly could have something done with.

I wouldn't say that. Only 19 and 20 really did that...and even then that's only if they got their hands on you. Then it was about infinite energy and never tiring. Moro doesn't even have to touch you. You get weaker just being around him. He weaponizes the planet which alone is more interesting than anything the androids ever did. I wouldn't say his magic is amazing yet, but it's at least more interesting to watch than a brute just punching a bunch and saying it's over. And to reiterate it does at least have a different dynamic problem instead of just who is stronger is what matters. To each their own though.

I'd say the same about Jiren honestly. Except more in the opposite direction. Toriyama is usually lorded for creative designs from Dragon Ball or the Dragon Quest games. But this was like Toei pitched him a bland design and he just accepted it. I personallly don't think Moro is any more out of place than any of the God's of Destruction. But once again this is a to each their own kinda thing so.

Fair enough. A cardinal sin in writing commonly is to not immediately grab attention when it comes to new characters. First impressions are almost everything and when failing that, it's difficult to give them more chances. It's exactly how I felt with Jiren. Kept giving more and more chances. Hearing he's gonna get better, but he never did. It started with the absolute shit design that is not at all appealing to look at in any sense. It continued with the stoic personality that was stoic for the sake it more than taking advantage of it. Then when it finally came to his story we have to have other people tell it to us and why he's so cool, and it just falls flat and further secures his spot as one of the shittiest antagonists we've ever had in my opinion.

I understand the appeal of Jiren, and some of the reason people like him. I think that was addressed. Though honestly I do personally feel a lot of it comes from "Toriyama Subverts Expectations" mindset so we're all trying to guess the twist like in an old Shyamalan movie. Sometimes we see it coming and other times we don't.

When I compare the two I feel Moro just has more going for him than Jiren. I feel he offers at least some new things as well as he's a lot easier on the eyes, as well as his expressions stand out more. Jiren was not helped by having bug eyes which cripple any emotion/facial expression.

[TKA]

You could literally summarize every non-tournament arc that way in this entire franchise if you were to simplify it enough.

True.

I didn't simplify it very far though.

What I described cannot be ascribed to King Piccolo, the Saiyans, Frieza, Cell or Buu.

I don't care about shitty video game bosses or Dragonball Heroes villains or the myriad other bad stories in this franchise.

Like I said previously, the only plot from outside of Toriyama's influence that is any good is Xenoverse 1's.

[namekiansaiyan]

Awesome that Buu is getting a chance to shine. Certainly a breath of fresh air, it can't always be just Goku and Vegeta.

But don't kid yourselves. How many times have they teased us with Piccolo doing something meaningful? Unfortunately, just accept it'll never happen.

Vegeta had some great character development in this chapter.

Did you think the same about Buu as well?

There is no tease for Piccolo here really but with what has happened so far it would make sense if Piccolo got involved.