Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ruler9871]

Wow, thanks! Someone ackowledging my reasoning as ok is a huge feat for our community.

Furthermore, let me state that when Hit faced Goku and seemeningly powered-up, everyone initially believed that he had increased his power, with Champa assuming so, however later on it is revealed that he only did that for a show. If it wasn't for his pure progress and improvement techniques, I doubt that he would even get some kind of advantage at all by "powering-up".

If he didn't increase his power then Hit would have be fodderized like he was in the manga.

The thing is that Jiren also didn't move later on when a Kaio Ken ×20 Blue Goku charged at him with full strentgh. After witnessing that, are you still sure that Jiren wasn't moving around just for the show? Besides, tha Supreme Kai of universe 11 has an entire monologue, saying that this battle will be a decicive one, as Jiren will stomp Goku, a formidable opponent, thus discouraging the fighters of the other universes to challenge him. All he could do is stand there while Goku is Blue and block his punches while not moving, with his fists. Because, in the end, there is a difference in power.

This is a bad argument, because:

1) Jiren is not a "showy, flashy" fighter at all. Its out-of-character for him to just do things for show.

2) Jiren never uses more strength than he needs to. So if there really wasn't that more of a power difference then Jiren would have logically just blocked SSBKKx20 Goku's attacks with just a finger like with SSG.

[ruler9871]

It wasn't due to Zamas power...After Zamas tanked Black's Kamehameha that put down Goku and Trunks. Goku stated invincibility/immortality is "unfair."

Try again.

Wrong scene. The scene I'm talking about is F.Zamasu casually parrying a pissed SSB Goku's punch at 1:02:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfWZFfE_6co

Not only are you being delusional but dishonest too.

[ruler9871]

1. That's not evenly matched though like you said. He wasn't instantly wiped out so that's saying something but it took no time at all for Android 17 to be forced backward and almost off the edge.

2. I never said it was every time. It was just what Vegeta said he starts slow. Apparently he didn't even go all out from the get go with Fused Zamasu nevermind just Zamasu.

3. No that's still your assumption from that scene. I know for a fact that it's not what people see because at the time people actually did think Ribrianne was about as strong as Android 17. Nobody at the time was mentioning the things that you're mentioning.

It was only after when Ribrianne fought other characters and her level was determined were people able to say that Android 17 was much stronger but not at the time.

I know that Android 17 is vastly more powerful than Ribrianne if that's what you're getting confused over.

4. What does the Earth have to do with it? Let's retrace a little bit. Super Saiyan 2 Trunks Final Flashed Zamasu and Goku thought that Trunks may have beaten him. Again why would Goku think that if Zamasu was levels above him?

You brought up that the same thing happened with Vegeta and Cell. It didn't.

5. Yes I did say it was outlier because it is as Super Saiyan 2 Trunks never hit Goku Black again and neither did characters far stronger than him either as was seen here.



So they couldn't hit him there going one after another but Trunks was able to kick him into a building. That was a one off occasion.

Likewise Zamasu hits Goku one time and then never again (fairly) or Vegeta (fairly). That too is a one off because he couldn't even hit Trunks as was shown in a previous gif.

6. If that's what you choose to believe then so be it.

7. Again a pretty bizarre thing for you to say. Base Goku Black by all rights is already more powerful than Super Saiyan 2 Trunks...so if Trunks is stronger than Zamasu than Base Goku Black should be in turn anyway.

In fact Base Goku Black actually has a more impressive showing against a Super Saiyan Blue than Zamasu ever does. Goku Black hits Vegeta one time so the same amount of times as Zamasu throughout the whole arc but Goku Black appears to land the much heavier blow. He also blitzed him at one point.

It's also pretty obvious in the manga too. As was mentioned Zamasu was said to be weaker than Trunks. Base Goku Black was stronger than Trunks.

1. But the fact that he wasn't instantly wiped out like you admitted would logically mean A17 isn't too far away from Base Toppo's power (that's how DB works).

2. That's because he was still cautious about using Blue Kaioken at the time due to its risks, but he definitely was using his full normal SSB powers throughout the whole Black saga.

3. Nobody in the series ever said or thought Ribrianne and A17 were evenly strong, that's just made up BS.

4. Now you are just repeating the same debunked argument

5. A)Trunks did hit Black again before reaching SSJ Rage. So that argument fails.
B) F.Zamasu repeatedly blocks and parrys SSB Goku's attacks afterwards, like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfWZFfE_6co
So no, its not a one-off thing in the anime.

6. Whatever.

7. "Base Goku Black by all rights is already more powerful than Super Saiyan 2 Trunks...so if Trunks is stronger than Zamasu than Base Goku Black should be in turn anyway."

This is a fallacy because it assumes character's power levels are static in the same forms throughout the entire arc, which they aren't (Base Black being the biggest exanmple).

"In fact Base Goku Black actually has a more impressive showing against a Super Saiyan Blue than Zamasu ever does."

No he doesn't, since F.Zamasu was able to shrug-off and parry attacks from a stronger SSB Goku later on.

"It's also pretty obvious in the manga too. As was mentioned Zamasu was said to be weaker than Trunks. Base Goku Black was stronger than Trunks."

For the millionth time, anime =/= manga in power levels & scaling. You keep denying this simple and obvious fact.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Wow, thanks! Someone ackowledging my reasoning as ok is a huge feat for our community.

Furthermore, let me state that when Hit faced Goku and seemeningly powered-up, everyone initially believed that he had increased his power, with Champa assuming so, however later on it is revealed that he only did that for a show. If it wasn't for his pure progress and improvement techniques, I doubt that he would even get some kind of advantage at all by "powering-up".

If he didn't increase his power then Hit would have be fodderized like he was in the manga.

The thing is that Jiren also didn't move later on when a Kaio Ken ×20 Blue Goku charged at him with full strentgh. After witnessing that, are you still sure that Jiren wasn't moving around just for the show? Besides, tha Supreme Kai of universe 11 has an entire monologue, saying that this battle will be a decicive one, as Jiren will stomp Goku, a formidable opponent, thus discouraging the fighters of the other universes to challenge him. All he could do is stand there while Goku is Blue and block his punches while not moving, with his fists. Because, in the end, there is a difference in power.

This is a bad argument, because:

1) Jiren is not a "showy, flashy" fighter at all. Its out-of-character for him to just do things for show.

2) Jiren never uses more strength than he needs to. So if there really wasn't that more of a power difference then Jiren would have logically just blocked SSBKKx20 Goku's attacks with just a finger like with SSG.

1) Hit never powered-up his strentgh. He could take on hits from Blue Kaio Ken ×10 but it was his pure progress and improvement methods that allowed him to clash with beings of greater power. I agree that he is at least SSJB level in the Anime, but he isn't a character that resorts to power. He took the hits. Goku did not intent to kill him of course. I think that it was also not allowed.

2) I agree. Jiren isn't like that. However, he did answer to the orders of his gods. He was willing to play this game. He had the power and Goku wasn't a serious adversary. He just went around for the show and proceeded to knock Goku down while in his peak, with just a glare. If this isn't the phsychological warfare that his gods asked for, then what is?

3) Jiren actually does the opposite. When against Goku, Vegeta and 17, he clealry needs more power than usual to fend them off, however he instead powers up to his Full Power state (more than what he needed), to make the U7 fighters tremble in fear. He is a character who boasts about his strength (when the time is right), despite the fact that he doesn't particularly like to show off.

[Miracles]

It wasn't due to Zamas power...After Zamas tanked Black's Kamehameha that put down Goku and Trunks. Goku stated invincibility/immortality is "unfair."

Try again.

Wrong scene. The scene I'm talking about is F.Zamasu casually parrying a pissed SSB Goku's punch at 1:02:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfWZFfE_6co

Not only are you being delusional but dishonest too.

Did you just see in that terribly dubbed video where Vegeta said Zamas is invincible before the encounter? Zamas blocking/parrying has nothing to do with his strength but his immortality. The narration always makes that the reason, never his power.

Paying attention to the dialogue helps.

[Bullza]

*Post*

1. He wasn't instantly wiped out but also was almost immediately pushed back so he's also not too close to Base Toppo's power either.

He's inferior to Toppo and admitted as such.

2. No I'm not referring to Kaio-ken. When he fought Fused Zamasu he initially did not use his full power in his Super Saiyan Blue form. He definitely did hold back his full normal Super Saiyan Blue powers actually.

3. In the series no because they aren't. I'm saying that the people here, on this forum thought that way at first. You said it's all obvious but that is not what people took the scene as. It was only later did people realise that Ribrianne wasn't as strong as originally thought to be.

4. You were the one who brought up the comparison. It's not a appropriate comparison.

5. At that point did Trunks hit Goku Black again?

You're saying blocks and parrys....that's not what I said though. That isn't hitting. See this is how bad off Zamasu is. You can't even find me one other occasion where Zamasu hits someone fairly throughout the whole arc that you have to find something else that I didn't mention.

7. Zamasu was never said to be any stronger in the Future than in the Present. Logically he shouldn't be of any significance anyway. These Kai's are millions are years old. A difference of 17 years is nothing to them.

The show as well is evidence enough. Trunks was completely overwhelmed by Base Goku Black and stood no chance against him. Yet he had the advantage against Zamasu. Base Goku Black actually got a lot stronger after that fight too.

Also about the manga thing, you said there was zero evidence which is untrue. The anime and manga aren't the exact same but they have the same general idea for many things. In both versions it goes

Goku Black > Vegeta = Goku > Trunks > Zamasu

[Miracles]

1) Hit never powered-up his strentgh. He could take on hits from Blue Kaio Ken ×10 but it was his pure progress and improvement methods that allowed him to clash with beings of greater power.

Spoiler:

[PFM18]

People will start saying "you are wrong because it is a SSJG with SSJ stacked on it and Goku said so", but do we realy interpret that definition correctly?

I think so, at least in the anime. (And I don't really care for the manga personally)

In the Kefla vs Goku fight, the Goku's SSG->SSB increase appears to be presented as the same as Kefla's Base->SSJ. It starts in SSG vs Base, and then goes into SSB vs SSJ and doesn't miss a beat.

Indeed. However, God Goku was overpowered by her while using Base and he even resorted to Kaio Ken against her. I personally think that it was a simple Kaio Ken (it would actually make more sense), because no way could he pull a ×20 in an instant and no way would an "equal" SSJ Kefla be able to counter that.

Her power rivaled the Spirit Bomb, alright but Goku got stronger in the meantime. A ×10 times increase in his Base would make sense as in the TOP, I think that he got 20 times stronger alongside with Vegeta. No need for Goku to reach his KK ×20 limit to reactivate UIO, if he is in an even worse situation.

They weren't equal in either case. Kefla had the advantage Base vs SSG, and then maintained her advantage in SSJ vs SSB.

[ruler9871]

It wasn't due to Zamas power...After Zamas tanked Black's Kamehameha that put down Goku and Trunks. Goku stated invincibility/immortality is "unfair."

Try again.

Wrong scene. The scene I'm talking about is F.Zamasu casually parrying a pissed SSB Goku's punch at 1:02:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfWZFfE_6co

Not only are you being delusional but dishonest too.

Did you just see in that terribly dubbed video where Vegeta said Zamas is invincible before the encounter? Zamas blocking/parrying has nothing to do with his strength but his immortality. The narration always makes that the reason, never his power.

Paying attention to the dialogue helps.

The ability to block/parry an attack is obviously a strength feat, it's delusional to argue otherwise. The show itself never said that immortality is the reason why he's able to block SSB Goku's attacks (and he never does anything like that in the manga, where he undeniably is only SSJ2 level) that's just your own BS headcanon.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Oh no! Too bad that everyone's posts were deleted...

Well, let us start again! Concerning a post that was deleted about Broly, here is the reply that I would have sent:

In my opinion, Broly powered-up many times. That thing is that while having all this dormant power sealed within him, it was about time he unleashed it. As such, he powered-up whenever there was a difference in strength between him and his rival. I have developed a much larger post, however I will sum it up here for you.

First things first, Broly powered-up 5 times in his Base form.
1) While charging for the first time at Vegeta
2) When he started overpowering Vegeta, with the latter commenting on Broly's superiority
3) After when Vegeta went SSJ, Broly powered-up to match him, however the SSJ boost was far too great
4) After some time, Broly powered-up again, indicating signs of his Wrathful state against Vegeta, with the Prince commenting yet again Broly's superiority
5) Finally, when Vegeta decided to use God, Broly went all out against him by powering-up for a final time, without getting the advantage as SSJG is a massive increase in the user's power

These power-ups would only make sense if Broly got around 3 times stronger with each one. In the beggining he was probably even below Vegeta, then he became stronger but Vegeta's experience gave him the edge. The he got even more power, so Vegeta resorted to SSJ. With Broly's third power-up, he was able to go around 50% of Vegeta's current power, with the Prince still having control of the fight. Then, when Wrathful came in with it's sign, Broly overpowered Vegeta, thus he should be above SSJ level now. Vegeta went God and despite Broly's final power-up, which elevated him to an even higher level, Vegeta one-punched him.

Then, Broly went Wrathful. In my opinion the Wrathful state has 2 stages and I believe most people ackowledge that. The first state which is like a powered-up Base form is the first stage, with it offering the Great Ape ×10 boost, as hinted by Paragus. Then the second stage is more akin to an A-type SSJ, perhaps a homage to the original Broly using the form. Bigger muscles, spiked hair etc. This form, like the A-type is a manifestation of the Saiyan's SSJ. So when it comes to a multiplier, I use the same one as with the Pseudo SSJ, that being a ×25 Base or ×2.5 Great Ape/Wrathful.

So:
1) Broly went Wrathful (×10) and countered a supressed God Vegeta's punch. He was supressed, no way he wasn't. Broly was strong, but Vegeta took many hits and remained unscathed, with Goku immediately interupting the fight
2) Then he powered-up to the second stage of the form, gaining a ×2.5 increase to face off against Goku. Goku in Base and in SSJ was totally overpowered. So he went God.
3) Broly got a small rage boost and due to his adaptability, he caught Goku off guard by immitating his attack. Now Goku went full God against Broly, with the two clashing, and Broly powering-up in his Wrathful stage II, for the first time. This should be a ×2 increase, as he pretty much tanked the attacks that previously hurt him in the same state. The fight between the two was very close
4) And so Broly went for another, second power-up of the same level ×2 and with Goku loosing his footing, he went berserk on him, mesning that he was above God level.

This is evident when Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan Blue. He initially charges at Broly, with the "Legendary" Saiyan using his full power against the God Saiyan. They exchange many blows, but Goku seems to have the advantage and by the time Broly reaches his maximum power, Blue Goku has no difficulty fighting him, meaning that despite being stronger than God, Broly is not stronger than Blue. During this fight, Broly doesn't power-up and neither does Goku. Even during the end of the fight Vegeta questions why Goku isn't finishing Broly off, as he had the strength to do so. And then, it happens. Freeza kills Paragus and Broly is left with rage and sorrow. This time it is special. It isn't only a new form, but also a power-up at the same time. C-type SSJ is itself a manifestation of the Full Power form, yet it is reminiscent of the Grade 1 and 4 SSJs used by normal Saiyans, so it also has a multiplier of ×50 on top of it's user's Base. However, Broly also gets a minimum of a ×2 times power-up from his rage boost. Not to be confused with the multiplier of the form though. This would place him on par with several SSJB level characters, even if hid Wrathful stage II power was below that of a Full Potential SSJB. This would also explain why he countered attacks from 2 SSJBs with such ease. If he was to power-up 50 times on top of his Wrathful, then no way would Goku and Vegeta be able to fight him the way they did and no way would True Golden Freeza survive one hour of fighting with Broly. Of course Freeza in said state should be on par with SSJBs Goku and Vegeta.

Basically:

1) Broly powers-up to get a boost from his rage, a ×2 times to be exact
2) Broly receives a ×2 multiplier on top of his Wrathful Stage II, to unlock his C-type SSJ which multiplies his Base form by 50 times.

Finally, we get to the fight between Broly and Gogeta. Gogeta Blue is a monster, so there is not need to compare Broly's power as a FP SSJ with that of Gogeta Blue's. However, upon entering the state Broly gets a final multiplication of 2 to get a ×100 of his Base. He is using the true SSJ. Which is why he gets such a multiplier. This would be an overkill for Blue Goku and Vegeta, even with the help of True Golden Freeza, but Gogeta Blue is a different case. The fight resumes, however Broly is beaten up and whenever he is seen powering-up, he is desperately trying to use his full power against Gogeta, so he never gets any stronger than what he initially powered-up into.

Ultimately:
1) Broly goes FP nad gets a ×2 multiplier on top of his C-type to get a ×100 times multiplier on top of his Base form.

It may sound as too much, however this is what someone should expect from Broly. He has all this untaped potential and this "legendary" background, which although has been retconed, is still in existence. Or Broly would simply be just another Saiyan. He required all these power-ups to unlock his hidden potentialand Vegeta with Goku, the Saiyans that achieved Godly levels of power, were the perfect opportunity for Broly to raise his power to a level beyond his past limitations (considering that against Paragus, Broly should hsve supressed his power infinitely).

[Hugo Boss]

It is pure headcanon to assume SSB doesn't follow the same 50x increase (because there is no proof nor evidence that it doesn't whatsoever). Your "reasoning" makes no sense.

As it is pure headcanon to assume it does, since there is no proof nor evidence that it does whatsoever. Your deduction is okay, but your reasoning requires a little more work.

This makes zero logical sense because it says nothing about F.Zamasu's feats and statements.

I talked about Trunks and Zamas, since they are supposed to be far below god level, given the choices they made in the arc. But episode 57 shows they are able to give a fight to god level Saiyans and Trunks is even stronger than Zamas. How do you explain the contradiction?

Hit was outright stated to also increase his raw-strength in the anime version only too. (that's why he's able to tank and damage SSBKKx10 Goku) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzBJVKotobA

That’s not it. Every piece of dialogue put together implies Hit “powered-up” in a metaphorical sense. Key word here is “seicho”, a callback to old-school Dragon Ball. It means Hit made self-improvement by honing his current skill for combat, which made his movements sharper and the damage given by “powered-up” time-skip more considerable. Kaioken just helped Goku to keep up with that. As noted before, Hit’s battle power doesn’t change in the anime.

[ruler9871]

As it is pure headcanon to assume it does, since there is no proof nor evidence that it does whatsoever. Your deduction is okay, but your reasoning requires a little more work.

Its common sense to assume that it does, because nothing says that it doesn't.

That’s not it. Every piece of dialogue put together implies Hit “powered-up” in a metaphorical sense. Key word here is “seicho”, a callback to old-school Dragon Ball. It means Hit made self-improvement by honing his current skill for combat, which made his movements sharper and the damage given by “powered-up” time-skip more considerable. Kaioken just helped Goku to keep up with that. As noted before, Hit’s battle power doesn’t change in the anime.

Nothing suggest that Hit only powered-up "metaphorically". That's just pure, baseless headcanon and denialism.

" Every piece of dialogue put together implies Hit “powered-up” in a metaphorical sense. Key word here is “seicho”, a callback to old-school Dragon Ball."

Pure nonsense. You like many other fans are overrating the importance of "skill" in DB (where literally every major fight is determined by raw power in one way or another, including Early DB).

"As noted before, Hit’s battle power doesn’t change in the anime."

This ignores the blatant fact that Goku himself stated that Hit got stronger after the U6 arc in their rematch.

[ZombieVito]

Pure nonsense. You like many other fans are overrating the importance of "skill" in DB (where literally every major fight is determined by raw power in one way or another, including Early DB).

This ignores the blatant fact that Goku himself stated that Hit got stronger after the U6 arc in their rematch.

Goku literally fought someone 100 times or so stronger than him with pure skill alone.

He's talking about that arc only. We know Hit gets stronger later since it's stated in E71.

[Miracles]

Wrong scene. The scene I'm talking about is F.Zamasu casually parrying a pissed SSB Goku's punch at 1:02:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfWZFfE_6co

Not only are you being delusional but dishonest too.

Did you just see in that terribly dubbed video where Vegeta said Zamas is invincible before the encounter? Zamas blocking/parrying has nothing to do with his strength but his immortality. The narration always makes that the reason, never his power.

Paying attention to the dialogue helps.

The ability to block/parry an attack is obviously a strength feat, it's delusional to argue otherwise. The show itself never said that immortality is the reason why he's able to block SSB Goku's attacks (and he never does anything like that in the manga, where he undeniably is only SSJ2 level) that's just your own BS headcanon.

You are not looking at this objectively, without bias; You are so busy trying to be right instead of accepting the facts. The narration constantly/always claims Zamas can not be fought against because of his invincibility. It's you who keeps stating it's because of his strength BUT the story never stated Zamas was strong because of his raw ability. That's just your desire. Show me where Zamas was stated to be strong because of his physical power? I constantly showed you where the plot stated his immortality/invulnerability was the threat.

BTW, in the manga Zamas dodged Blue Goku once. Does that mean he is Blue level? NO. But according to you since he evaded Blue Goku that shows his speed is blue level. Even though the manga outright stated Trunks is stronger than him. Same with the anime, it's TOEI'S inconsistency where Zamasu at one point pokes/trades/dodges Blue Goku into the street their first battle. Then later he gets physically overpowered by SSJ Trunks in his fight when he ran his sword through him. Why are you ignoring this contradicting fact and acting as if it never happened, trying to override it with Zamas's momentary exchanges with Blue Goku? Then later Zamas couldn't even overpower a fatigue'd SSJ Trunks after planting Black into a mountain. It's you who is ignoring the whole scope of the situation and trying to parade certain parts of Zamas blue level tier as if that were going to erase the other low end feats.

You don't want to admit it but the fact is TOEI messed up. It's no different from having base Goku fighting evenly with Oozaru Broly who was pretty much above red Vegeta. Then later having Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta fight SSJ Broly evenly. You have to acknowledge TOEI's bad writing. We know for a fact that Zamas LOST/loses to SSJ Trunks in BOTH anime and manga but NEVER beats Blue Goku. You have to look at the facts OBJECTIVELY; instead of with your own headcanon. Zamas isn't blue tier in either medium.

[ruler9871]

Goku literally fought someone 100 times or so stronger than him with pure skill alone.

When did that ever happen?

[ruler9871]

Did you just see in that terribly dubbed video where Vegeta said Zamas is invincible before the encounter? Zamas blocking/parrying has nothing to do with his strength but his immortality. The narration always makes that the reason, never his power.

Paying attention to the dialogue helps.

The ability to block/parry an attack is obviously a strength feat, it's delusional to argue otherwise. The show itself never said that immortality is the reason why he's able to block SSB Goku's attacks (and he never does anything like that in the manga, where he undeniably is only SSJ2 level) that's just your own BS headcanon.

You are not looking at this objectively. Without bias because you are so busy trying to be right instead of accepting the facts. The narration constantly/always claims Zamas can not be fought against because of his invincibility. It's you who keeps stating it's because of his strength BUT the story never stated Zamas was strong because of his raw ability. That's just your desire. Show me where Zamas was stated to be strong because of his physical power? I constantly showed you where the plot stated his immortality/invulnerability was the threat.

BTW, in the manga Zamas dodged Blue Goku for a bit too. Does that mean he is Blue level? NO. But according to you since he evaded Blue Goku that shows his speed is blue level. Even though the manga outright stated Trunks is stronger than him. Same with the anime, it's TOEI'S inconsistency where Zamasu at one point pokes/trades/dodges Blue Goku into the street their first battle. Then later he gets physically overpowered by SSJ Trunks in his fight when he ran his sword through him. Why are you ignoring this contradicting fact and acting as if it never happened, trying to override it with Zamas's momentary exchanges with Blue Goku? Then later Zamas couldn't even overpower a fatigue'd SSJ Trunks after planting Black into a mountain. It's you who is ignoring the whole scope of the situation and trying to parade certain parts of Zamas blue level tier as if that were going to erase the other low end feats.

You don't want to admit it but the fact is TOEI messed up. It's no different from having base Goku fighting evenly with Oozaru Broly who was pretty much above red Vegeta. Then later having Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta fight SSJ Broly evenly. You have to acknowledge TOEI's bad writing. We know for a fact that Zamas LOST/loses to SSJ Trunks in BOTH anime and manga but NEVER beats Blue Goku. You have to look at the facts OBJECTIVELY; instead of with your own headcanon. Zamas isn't blue tier in either medium.

1. You still have failed to give any proof that F.Zamasu was ever mean't to be only SSJ2 in the anime in the 1st place. Not a single line of dialogue nor any guide/source from Toei at all. You are the one that's in denial.

2. Since when the hell does immortality magically give you greater defensive skills aside from not dying? That's pure bullshit.

By your "logic", if Krillin ever gained immortality then he should then be able to block/parry punches from Jiren lol. That's exactly what your F.Zamasu arguments sound like.

[Miracles]

The ability to block/parry an attack is obviously a strength feat, it's delusional to argue otherwise. The show itself never said that immortality is the reason why he's able to block SSB Goku's attacks (and he never does anything like that in the manga, where he undeniably is only SSJ2 level) that's just your own BS headcanon.

You are not looking at this objectively. Without bias because you are so busy trying to be right instead of accepting the facts. The narration constantly/always claims Zamas can not be fought against because of his invincibility. It's you who keeps stating it's because of his strength BUT the story never stated Zamas was strong because of his raw ability. That's just your desire. Show me where Zamas was stated to be strong because of his physical power? I constantly showed you where the plot stated his immortality/invulnerability was the threat.

BTW, in the manga Zamas dodged Blue Goku for a bit too. Does that mean he is Blue level? NO. But according to you since he evaded Blue Goku that shows his speed is blue level. Even though the manga outright stated Trunks is stronger than him. Same with the anime, it's TOEI'S inconsistency where Zamasu at one point pokes/trades/dodges Blue Goku into the street their first battle. Then later he gets physically overpowered by SSJ Trunks in his fight when he ran his sword through him. Why are you ignoring this contradicting fact and acting as if it never happened, trying to override it with Zamas's momentary exchanges with Blue Goku? Then later Zamas couldn't even overpower a fatigue'd SSJ Trunks after planting Black into a mountain. It's you who is ignoring the whole scope of the situation and trying to parade certain parts of Zamas blue level tier as if that were going to erase the other low end feats.

You don't want to admit it but the fact is TOEI messed up. It's no different from having base Goku fighting evenly with Oozaru Broly who was pretty much above red Vegeta. Then later having Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta fight SSJ Broly evenly. You have to acknowledge TOEI's bad writing. We know for a fact that Zamas LOST/loses to SSJ Trunks in BOTH anime and manga but NEVER beats Blue Goku. You have to look at the facts OBJECTIVELY; instead of with your own headcanon. Zamas isn't blue tier in either medium.

1. You still have failed to give any proof that F.Zamasu was ever mean't to be only SSJ2 in the anime in the 1st place. Not a single line of dialogue nor any guide/source from Toei at all. You are the one that's in denial.

2. Since when the hell does immortality magically give you greater defensive skills aside from not dying? That's pure bullshit.

By your "logic", if Krillin ever gained immortality then he should then be able to block/parry punches from Jiren lol. That's exactly what your F.Zamasu arguments sound like.

I gave you what the story stated. The reasons for Zamas threat was his invulnerability. That's a fact. The story never stated his strength was blue level. That's another fact. Due to TOEI's inconsistency Zamas physical power IS an UNKNOWN. Since TOEI had him skirmishing with Blue Goku THEN PHYSICALLY GETTING HANDLED BY SSJ TRUNKS.

So I stayed with the plot being the only reasonable explanation. That Zamas's "invincibility" was the only reason why he was able to stand up to, BUT NEVER BEAT any of his Saiyan opponents. You on the other hand give bias headcanon by singling out one instance and ignoring others. You are wrong.

[Koitsukai]

As it is pure headcanon to assume it does, since there is no proof nor evidence that it does whatsoever. Your deduction is okay, but your reasoning requires a little more work.

Its common sense to assume that it does, because nothing says that it doesn't.

That’s not it. Every piece of dialogue put together implies Hit “powered-up” in a metaphorical sense. Key word here is “seicho”, a callback to old-school Dragon Ball. It means Hit made self-improvement by honing his current skill for combat, which made his movements sharper and the damage given by “powered-up” time-skip more considerable. Kaioken just helped Goku to keep up with that. As noted before, Hit’s battle power doesn’t change in the anime.

Nothing suggest that Hit only powered-up "metaphorically". That's just pure, baseless headcanon and denialism.

Actually, there are several things that suggest that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQXyyyFAVtU (3:47) Goku feels no change

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn6ilaT8IyQ (1:04) Whis literally shuts the case, Vados agrees and Hit confirms it and explains that he doesn't follow the same path as regular DB characters do.

If his power up was about ki and raw strenght, it's result would've been felt from the very first attack, but it wasn't, Goku felt it later on, meaning Hit was perfecting his techinque. Actually everybody thought Goku had won, Champa was even surprised that Hit managed to counter-attack Goku.

[PFM18]

Goku literally fought someone 100 times or so stronger than him with pure skill alone.

When did that ever happen?

SSJ2 Caulifla vs Base Goku

[Miracles]

People are taking Vados, Whis and Goku's statement out of context. Yes, they said Hit did not power up WHEN HE TRIED to level up transforming like Saiyans do. Hit confirms this as well as Vados. He didn't power up when he screamed and flared his aura up. HOWEVER , Hit DID power up when he just simply improved himself. Without screaming and yelling. Goku confirms this when he says Hit's attack strength got him real good after powering up.

You guys are mixing two scenarios together that are different.