Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PFM18]

There were tactics in DBS. Heck even some in DBZ.

Uhh....are you sure? As far as tactics/strategy, nuance, and interesting abilities go, DBZ fights were as simple as it gets. The ONLY factor in a fight was power.

[Bullza]

I can't remember much strategy in DBZ. There was some with Raditz. There was definitely some involving Nappa because Vegeta overheard them and wished them luck...I don't recall anything else though.

[Amir]

I can't remember much strategy in DBZ. There was some with Raditz. There was definitely some involving Nappa because Vegeta overheard them and wished them luck...I don't recall anything else though.

And the ones with Nappa were ineffective because he had much greater power.

That's what happens when characters get 100x stronger every time. It's not just strength. The big gap in power levels is relevant to all stats such as durability, speed/reaction and stamina.
It also doesn't help that every fighter has pretty much the same abilities and even if someone does have something unique, it's still related to power so it can be countered with greater power level.

[wolflonnie]

I can't remember much strategy in DBZ. There was some with Raditz. There was definitely some involving Nappa because Vegeta overheard them and wished them luck...I don't recall anything else though.

- Vs Vegeta: Yajirobei hiding and cutting his tail
- Vs Frieza/Kid Buu: stalling him for the Genkidama
- Piccolo vs Cell first form: pretending to be weakened to bait him into revealing his secrets (not quite a battle tactic, still smarts)
- SSJ Gotenks vs Super Buu: although it was more a funny/comical scene, have the ghosts bait him in one spot to attack him

Again, it's not much and I was mostly referring to Raditz and Nappa, but it wasn't all braindead battles. There was some semblance of thoughts and strategies involved.
Granted, not all the strategies worked, but they don't have to always work to be strategies.

[Hugo Boss]

You are not paying attention and trying to add in text...

You say: "Hit didn't deliver solid Hits before he powered up..."

The canon shows he did but were unaffective:

In those exchanges Goku's attacks were hurting Hit. While Hit didn't damage Goku at all...

Ironically, I think I’m the one who is actually paying attention from this side. You are implying Hit was attacking Goku with solid hits, as much as the ones that stomped Vegeta. Obviously, this is not the case. Not because Hit was underestimating Goku, but because Goku could antecipate them, which gives him an absurd advantage in a fight of that caliber.

Not only that, but the context is very clear that Goku was talking about the same “power-up” that Hit and everyone else were talking about. It doesn’t take much thinking to see that Hit’s attack became effective because Goku couldn’t antecipate it properly, which demonstrates his toughness is similar to Vegeta’s.

In resume, if you upgrade a skill that gives you a great advantage in battle, you become stronger.

[Miracles]

You are not paying attention and trying to add in text...

You say: "Hit didn't deliver solid Hits before he powered up..."

The canon shows he did but were unaffective:

In those exchanges Goku's attacks were hurting Hit. While Hit didn't damage Goku at all...

Ironically, I think I’m the one who is actually paying attention from this side. You are implying Hit was attacking Goku with solid hits, as much as the ones that stomped Vegeta. Obviously, this is not the case. Not because Hit was underestimating Goku, but because Goku could antecipate them, which gives him an absurd advantage in a fight of that caliber.

Not only that, but the context is very clear that Goku was talking about the same “power-up” that Hit and everyone else were talking about. It doesn’t take much thinking to see that Hit’s attack became effective because Goku couldn’t antecipate it properly, which demonstrates his toughness is similar to Vegeta’s.

In resume, if you upgrade a skill that gives you a great advantage in battle, you become stronger.

You are giving headcanon. When Hit failed trying to power up like Saiyans through transforming, his SOLID HITS didn't hurt Goku at all. AFTER he powers up [Improvement] Hit's attack gets Goku real good. Just as the canon shows and narration backs. There is no getting around this.

[Hugo Boss]

You are giving headcanon. When Hit failed trying to power up like Saiyans through transforming, his SOLID HITS didn't hurt Goku at all. AFTER he powers up [Improvement] Hit's attack gets Goku real good. Just as the canon shows and narration backs. There is no getting around this.

No. I’m just explaining what the scene tells us. I added nothing that wasn’t already clarified by Hit and everyone else who talked about his “power up”. And by “solid hits”, I mean attacks that are effective. Obviously, there is a difference between how Goku and Vegeta reacted to time-skip at 0.1 seconds. While 0.1 seconds provide solid hits against Vegeta, it doesn’t provide the same effect against Goku. It took a power up to 0.2 seconds to provide a similar effect against Goku. But it wasn’t just that, Hit lured Goku into thinking he didn’t power up and he saved the solid hit to the decisive moment Goku approached him. That put Goku and Vegeta on equal ground, as Hit could fool them. If Goku had previous knowledge about 0.2 seconds, he could still counter like he was doing against 0.1 seconds. But 0.5 seconds required Goku to multiply his battle power and other abilities. All of this is justified because Hit’s battle power is a hair behind Super Saiyan Blue. I’m honestly baffled that I need to explain this, since Hit’s explanation is very clear.

[Miracles]

You are giving headcanon. When Hit failed trying to power up like Saiyans through transforming, his SOLID HITS didn't hurt Goku at all. AFTER he powers up [Improvement] Hit's attack gets Goku real good. Just as the canon shows and narration backs. There is no getting around this.

No. I’m just explaining what the scene tells us. I added nothing that wasn’t already clarified by Hit and everyone else who talked about his “power up”. And by “solid hits”, I mean attacks that are effective. Obviously, there is a difference between how Goku and Vegeta reacted to time-skip at 0.1 seconds. While 0.1 seconds provide solid hits against Vegeta, it doesn’t provide the same effect against Goku. It took a power up to 0.2 seconds to provide a similar effect against Goku. But it wasn’t just that, Hit lured Goku into thinking he didn’t power up and he saved the solid hit to the decisive moment Goku approached him. That put Goku and Vegeta on equal ground, as Hit could fool them. If Goku had previous knowledge about 0.2 seconds, he could still counter like he was doing against 0.1 seconds. But 0.5 seconds required Goku to multiply his battle power and other abilities. All of this is justified because Hit’s battle power is a hair behind Super Saiyan Blue. I’m honestly baffled that I need to explain this, since Hit’s explanation is very clear.

Your explanation still doesn't match up with the story. All this about "Hit not landing attacks effectively on BLUE Goku like he did BLUE Vegeta" BEFORE he powered up is headcanon. Hit with 0.1 Time skip landed punches on Blue Goku and he was TANKING them unlike Blue Vegeta. Thus showing the difference in Hit's strength now, after failing to power up like the Saiyans. However, LATER Goku says Hit's attack got him good [the punch in the gut] AFTER he powered himself up [Improvement], as expected. Proving that Hit's strength increased along with Time skip.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Vegeta wasn't predicting the Time skip and got hit in critical areas. Goku was predicting the Time skip therefore he did not get hit in critical areas before Hit improved.

[Hugo Boss]

It’s literally explained by Goku in the episode before why Hit’s attacks weren’t effective. Hit barely could connect a punch, Goku right away counters him back, he wasn’t tanking anything. Or will someone tell me that Goku is tougher than Vegeta that time?! Of course not.

Anyway, Goku never said Hit’s battle power increased. This is just an embellishment some people add to his statement, because they don’t understand what Hit’s power up is about. One thing for sure, the attack went through with stronger impact because Hit had twice the time to indulge the necessary momentum to the blow. Goku wasn’t expecting that, but once Hit explained he understood what happened. It’s expected that his next attacks would feel stronger. Nothing to complicate.

[ZombieVito]

Vegeta wasn't predicting the Time skip and got hit in critical areas. Goku was predicting the Time skip therefore he did not get hit in critical areas before Hit improved.

It baffles me he doesnt get this. This right here is it.

[Zamasu55]

So Merged Zamasu is an ant compared to Jiren, and bear in mind that this version of the U11's fighter is really nerfed, considering he isn't using any of his strongest attacks nor his powered up form.

[Grand Marshal 1]

So Merged Zamasu is an ant compared to Jiren, and bear in mind that this version of the U11's fighter is really nerfed, considering he isn't using any of his strongest attacks nor his powered up form.

As I have explained in another post, "Neo-Zamasu" (as I call him) should be around the level of high 3rd UIO Goku from the ToP, which is above his Giant Corrupted form in the FT arc that should fall between GoD Toppo (below 3rd Omen Goku) but above 2nd Omen Goku. This Jiren has gotten stronger ever since the ToP and if he exerted his Full Power against Goku in his 3rd UIO from the ToP, he should now have to use a lesser percentage of power.

We do not know if this Merged Zamasu can transform further, but if he can't then this "Halo" form is his peak, but still nothing compared to Jiren, who doesn't even give 50% against him. Of course, he puts some effort, I am not throwing Zamasu away, but this would make sense, as he could defeat a SSJ2 Kefla with his power (she was fighting very seriously against 2nd Omen Goku).

It goes like: Jiren (50%, UC arc)>Neo Zamasu≈3rd Omen Goku (ToP)>GoD Toppo (ToP)>2nd Omen Goku (ToP)>Kefla SSJ2 (ToP)

Nothing indicates that Kefla or Toppo got stronger, but Jiren was stronger as his fight with MUI Goku pushed him to his limits, even causing him to break them. This would also explain why Neo Zamasu was capable of taking out GoD Toppo in the game even with the assistance of SLSM Dyspo, whose power is at Ultimate Gohan levels and his speed at TG Freeza from the ToP.

[ruler9871]

I've made a list of the top 25 strongest characters in Super since the DBS Broly film. Here's what I got:

1. Zeno
2. The Grand Priest
3. The 12 Angels
4. MUI Goku
5. Awakened Jiren
6. Current SSB Fusion
7. Full Power Broly
8. The 12 Hakaishin
9. SSBE Vegeta
10. GoD Toppo
11. SSJ2 Kefla
12. Infinite Zamasu
13. Spirit Sword Trunks
14. Black arc SSB Fusion
15. True Golden Freeza
16. Aniraza
17. Android 17
18. Hit
19. SSR Goku Black (Scythe)
20. Ultimate Gohan
21. Full Speed Dsypo
22. Koichiarator
23. Obuni
24. Saonel & Pirina
25. SSB Copy-Vegeta


I didn't include Zalama nor Zeno's guards due to lack of feats & statements about their power.

What do you guys think? Did I miss anybody or get something wrong?

[PFM18]

I've made a list of the top 25 strongest characters in Super since the DBS Broly film. Here's what I got:

1. Zeno
2. The Grand Priest
3. The 12 Angels
4. MUI Goku
5. Awakened Jiren
6. Current SSB Fusion
7. Full Power Broly
8. The 12 Hakaishin
9. SSBE Vegeta
10. GoD Toppo
11. SSJ2 Kefla
12. Infinite Zamasu
13. Spirit Sword Trunks
14. Black arc SSB Fusion
15. True Golden Freeza
16. Aniraza
17. Android 17
18. Hit
19. SSR Goku Black (Scythe)
20. Ultimate Gohan
21. Full Speed Dsypo
22. Koichiarator
23. Obuni
24. Saonel & Pirina
25. SSB Copy-Vegeta


I didn't include Zalama nor Zeno's guards due to lack of feats & statements about their power.

What do you guys think? Did I miss anybody or get something wrong?

I wouldn't put it that way. I would go:

1. Zenos
2. Daishinkan
3. Angels
4. BR SSB Gogetea
5T LSSJ Broly
5T UI Goku
7. Jiren
8. GoDs
9. 3rd UI Omen Goku
10. FT arc SSB Vegetto
11. Merged Zamasu
12. SSB Evolution Vegeta
13. GoD Toppo
14. 123 SSBKKx20 Goku
15. SSJ2 Kefla
16. Aniraza
17. True Golden Freeza
18. Hit
19. Android 17
20. Ultimate Gohan

I don't feel like going to 25.

Note: I am willing to put multiple incarnations of Goku on here because he is so damn prevalent.

Broly and UI Goku are both stronger than Jiren by an arbitrary amount while also being weaker than SSB Gogeta, so as far as I'm aware they are equals. The cards reinforce this.

As I have explained in another post, "Neo-Zamasu" (as I call him) should be around the level of high 3rd UIO Goku from the ToP, which is above his Giant Corrupted form in the FT arc that should fall between GoD Toppo (below 3rd Omen Goku) but above 2nd Omen Goku. This Jiren has gotten stronger ever since the ToP and if he exerted his Full Power against Goku in his 3rd UIO from the ToP, he should now have to use a lesser percentage of power.

As far as I'm concerned, the gap between 3rd UI Omen Goku and everybody below him in the ToP is tremendously large. I would place Merged Zamasu and SSB Vegetto in this giant gap.

[Hugo Boss]

I should say Hit and Dyspo definetely rank higher than Freeza, due to what they accomplished in the tournament. They are weaker than Kafla though.

[Koitsukai]

I've made a list of the top 25 strongest characters in Super since the DBS Broly film. Here's what I got:

1. Zeno
2. The Grand Priest
3. The 12 Angels
4. MUI Goku
5. Awakened Jiren
6. Current SSB Fusion
7. Full Power Broly
8. The 12 Hakaishin
9. SSBE Vegeta
10. GoD Toppo
11. SSJ2 Kefla
12. Infinite Zamasu
13. Spirit Sword Trunks
14. Black arc SSB Fusion
15. True Golden Freeza
16. Aniraza
17. Android 17
18. Hit
19. SSR Goku Black (Scythe)
20. Ultimate Gohan
21. Full Speed Dsypo
22. Koichiarator
23. Obuni
24. Saonel & Pirina
25. SSB Copy-Vegeta


I didn't include Zalama nor Zeno's guards due to lack of feats & statements about their power.

What do you guys think? Did I miss anybody or get something wrong?

I pretty much agree with it. I would put FT arc SSB fusion higher, not sure if above God Toppo or between him and Kefla or below her, but def not below Merged Zamasu.
Also, Hit should be above 17 who I don't think can take on Goku Black SS Rose.
17-Hit (or Freeza?)
18-Black
19-Android 17
20-Son Gohan

About Dyspo, he is not strong enough to be that high on the list but he can fuck the lives of fighters at least ranked 15th.

[ruler9871]

I should say Hit and Dyspo definetely rank higher than Freeza, due to what they accomplished in the tournament. They are weaker than Kafla though.

Well what about the Freeza from DBS Broly? After all, he did survive a hour-long beating from SSJ1 (not full power) Broly, who should be slightly above SSBKKx20 and SSBE.

[ruler9871]

I wouldn't put it that way. I would go:

1. Zenos
2. Daishinkan
3. Angels
4. BR SSB Gogetea
5T LSSJ Broly
5T UI Goku
7. Jiren
8. GoDs
9. 3rd UI Omen Goku
10. FT arc SSB Vegetto
11. Merged Zamasu
12. SSB Evolution Vegeta
13. GoD Toppo
14. 123 SSBKKx20 Goku
15. SSJ2 Kefla
16. Aniraza
17. True Golden Freeza
18. Hit
19. Android 17
20. Ultimate Gohan

I don't feel like going to 25.

Note: I am willing to put multiple incarnations of Goku on here because he is so damn prevalent.

Broly and UI Goku are both stronger than Jiren by an arbitrary amount while also being weaker than SSB Gogeta, so as far as I'm aware they are equals. The cards reinforce this.


As far as I'm concerned, the gap between 3rd UI Omen Goku and everybody below him in the ToP is tremendously large. I would place Merged Zamasu and SSB Vegetto in this giant gap.

Where's Future Trunks? Even without the Spirit Sword, he should still be at least on par with Freeza.

[Bullza]

I wouldn't put it that way. I would go:

1. Zenos
2. Daishinkan
3. Angels
4. BR SSB Gogetea
5T LSSJ Broly
5T UI Goku
7. Jiren
8. GoDs
9. 3rd UI Omen Goku
10. FT arc SSB Vegetto
11. Merged Zamasu
12. SSB Evolution Vegeta
13. GoD Toppo
14. 123 SSBKKx20 Goku
15. SSJ2 Kefla
16. Aniraza
17. True Golden Freeza
18. Hit
19. Android 17
20. Ultimate Gohan

I don't feel like going to 25.

With the exception of Jiren and Ultra Instinct Goku which I'd put above Broly and Gogeta then I'd go with something like this also but like Hugo Boss said, Dyspo should be up there, above Frieza with his Maximum Speed Mode.

Oh and Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black I'd at say was above Hit, power level wise.