Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
Kaboom wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2019 11:42 am
We have at best a handful of indirect implications that the base Saiyans are stronger than the likes of Freeza/Piccolo/Shin, and then one solid, very-direct actual statement saying that they're not.
I'm pretty sure the direct statement takes priority. The Boo-arc implications to the contrary can all easily be rationalized some other way.
Hugo Boss wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2019 12:49 pm
Battle of Gods pretty much ended this debate. After checking Goku, Beerus concluded he couldn’t beat Freeza without Super Saiyan. And none rectified him, so there is no reason to doubt his statement.
Beerus also said that SSJ Goku couldn't beat Freeza either (which is clearly false). So no, the Beerus argument is weak.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.
Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.
ruler9871 wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2019 8:45 pm
Beerus also said that SSJ Goku couldn't beat Freeza either (which is clearly false). So no, the Beerus argument is weak.
Beerus never said that. I seriously don’t know where you guys get this idea. There is no argument to be made here.
ruler9871 wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2019 8:45 pm
Beerus also said that SSJ Goku couldn't beat Freeza either (which is clearly false). So no, the Beerus argument is weak.
Beerus never said that. I seriously don’t know where you guys get this idea. There is no argument to be made here.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.
Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.
If you have an informed and worthwhile point to make, then make it. A "no u" and a link to someone else's 20-minute-long YouTube video is not a response that anyone here is going to respect or care about.
What exactly is this? I suggest you check the official simulcast services.
That's not a rebuttal. You didn't address the arguments in it.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.
Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.
Desassina wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2019 5:40 pm
And all those things that were stated directly were cast doubt upon because we want to believe that base Gotenks is all that? Count me out man!
Which things?
The things that I posted, which were true, and somehow cast doubt upon, because base Gotenks being all that must prevail, when there's more than enough reasons to believe that, as yet another base Saiyan, he's not stronger than Piccolo showing strong.
Evil Boo is also different than Majin Boo. We learned that Dai Kaioshin was that strong even though he gave up his Ki, and that maybe it was his magic that locked Boo into his own personality, but that would be preventing the obvious point made by Goku: "Piccolo's coming out strong."
Do you see where I'm going with this? If we're simply going to find out of place statements or events to excuse the ones directly related to the issue, then there's a whole manga, some movies and an anime to consider. I drew a circle around the issue and caught those more closely related to it. That's all.
Speedster wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2019 2:58 pmFirst I would like to start by saying that this is the first time I have seen anybody anywhere making this bizarre claim that Buucolo was base Gotenks + Piccolo and that Piccolo is stronger than post ROSAT base Gotenks.
My first would be that it's a claim. "Bizzarre" only when given the proper analysis and conclusion, which you clearly haven't presented before calling it what you did, and that speaks volumes about the bias that is about to come.
In any event you are misinterpreting Goku’s words here. What he clearly means is that the kids went from being in a fused state back to normal i.e. to being unfused, i.e. they split. It is clear that he means so, as he follows his statement with the “you ran out of time!” and the only thing that was explicitly given a time limit was fusion. I am guessing you will refer to Trunks saying they can only maintain SSJ3 for 5 minutes but exactly we were shown before that when that time limit is reached the whole fusion runs out and they split, they don't just revert from SSJ3 Gotenks to base Gotenks.
A few things wrong here:
1. The fused kids (a.k.a Gotenks) went back to normal. They did it before when they lost Super Saiyan 3 and only then unfused. Goku had a similar reaction.
2. Evil Boo, not the kids, ran out of time, which means that his power isn't what it used to be, and that it can be SSJ3 Gotenks losing power down to base for Piccolo to show up.
3. Fusion time seemed to be greater on Evil Boo when he said that he had 30 minutes instead of just 5. Either that or he used only SSJ Gotenks's power. He has access to their memories.
4. Vegeta asked Goku whether Gotenks had unfused like Vegetto did once he lowered his defenses. The reply was something along the lines of "they ran out of time" and it's one instance when they were separate.
Goku clearly meant that fusion expired altogether regardless of the mechanics of it. The point I made for the SSJ3 was that even if you brought up the SSJ3 time limit, Gotenks couldn't transform into SSJ3 and when his 5min SSJ3 time limit was reached, revert back to base Gotenks and stay like that for another 25minutes to complete the 30mins duration of normal fusion. It was established that when Gotenks’ SSJ3 time runs out, the fusion will run out as well. Sure, it might not always be completely immediate but it follows shortly afterwards. And that’s precisely what happened in chapter 496 with Trunks remarking after they split, “The fusion has given out as well”. Also in all (or at least most) future instances of fusion, that be Potara or Metamorian, whenever the fused fighter went into a power-hungry energy state (e.g. Vegetto going Vegetto Blue) the fusion lasted much shorter than its normal duration would have been and the fighters split either almost immediately after reverting to base or after fighting in base and later transforming they split while fighting in the transformed state as the moment of separation was brought earlier due to being in that power hungry state.
In any case, if you want to believe that Buucolo was Base Gotenks+Piccolo and that Piccolo > or >> Base post-ROSAT Gotenks that’s your own prerogative, but in no way this is an established fact like your original post made it out to be, only to then declare it as an inconsistency in power scaling within the manga.
Either base Gotenks or Goten and Trunks Piccolo Boo can be true, so Piccolo being above the fused or separate kids is a given, and while I can't argue that it was base Gotenks that filled Boo's body beneath Piccolo's cape as a fact, neither can Goten and Trunks be argued to have done the same as a more truthful one, but that Piccolo is above a few base Saiyans (in this case the young hybrids and their base fusion) is true. Just because I haven't talked to the fanbase long enough to become hiveminded, doesn't mean that a novel, yet in-the-minority interpretation can't hold its ground.
ruler9871 wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 4:33 am
That's not a rebuttal. You didn't address the arguments in it.
You can’t seriously expect anyone here to watch that video. There is nothing there you can’t type yourself. Make a properly written post. And I’m afraid that person watched a low quality version of Dragon Ball Super, since Beerus never said that. After you’ve watched the movie or the respective episode in Super, come here to tell what you’ve seen.
to contribute to this topic. If gotenks reverted back to base form inside bootenks, either boo or the others would be noticed a considerable degrade in power. we are talking about 400x degrade in power, such thing would be noticable. so the most logical conclusion is that Gotenks as an SS3 defused right there. and that piccolo is simply stronger than Goten and trunks.
bit textwally for my first post.
PurestEvil wrote: ↑Sat Oct 09, 2021 6:21 pm
You could also, y'know, become a real buddhist
DragonBallFoodie wrote: ↑Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:18 am
Isn't this technically worshipping the Monkey King?
ruler9871 wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 4:33 am
That's not a rebuttal. You didn't address the arguments in it.
You can’t seriously expect anyone here to watch that video. There is nothing there you can’t type yourself. Make a properly written post. And I’m afraid that person watched a low quality version of Dragon Ball Super, since Beerus never said that. After you’ve watched the movie or the respective episode in Super, come here to tell what you’ve seen.
You're still dodging the arguments........
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.
Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.
Shintoki wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 9:41 am
to contribute to this topic. If gotenks reverted back to base form inside bootenks, either boo or the others would be noticed a considerable degrade in power. we are talking about 400x degrade in power, such thing would be noticable. so the most logical conclusion is that Gotenks as an SS3 defused right there. and that piccolo is simply stronger than Goten and trunks.
bit textwally for my first post.
Yes, gotenks just defused.
If it was just base Gotenks + piccolo, buutenks would have remained buutenks, only enormously nerfed as (buutenks/2)/400+buutenks/2+piccolo
Shintoki wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 9:41 am
to contribute to this topic. If gotenks reverted back to base form inside bootenks, either boo or the others would be noticed a considerable degrade in power. we are talking about 400x degrade in power, such thing would be noticable. so the most logical conclusion is that Gotenks as an SS3 defused right there. and that piccolo is simply stronger than Goten and trunks.
bit textwally for my first post.
The problem being that defusing straight from SSJ3 Fusion into two powerless kids would have been more noticeable than into their fused base. Welcome to this board!
ruler9871 wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 4:33 am
That's not a rebuttal. You didn't address the arguments in it.
You can’t seriously expect anyone here to watch that video. There is nothing there you can’t type yourself. Make a properly written post. And I’m afraid that person watched a low quality version of Dragon Ball Super, since Beerus never said that. After you’ve watched the movie or the respective episode in Super, come here to tell what you’ve seen.
Beerus does state this: "But if this is all you've got, defeating Freeza would probably be the best you're capable of." (He states this just before Goku turns SSj2, so after he saw what SSj Goku was could do).
The fact that he uses words like "probably" when comparing Goku to Frieza says something, he isn't quite aware of how powerful Frieza actually is. And that should also make a lot of sense, it's been a damn long time since he has seen Frieza. Earlier, SSj Goku stated he was gonna go all-out against Beerus, yet he's still only compared to that of Frieza? All-out BOG SSj Goku would destroy Frieza, but Beerus still thinks that defeating Frieza would be Goku's best, which is pretty stupid for obivous reasons. I mean, SSj Goku was superior to the SSj Trunks that one-shotted a stronger Frieza than the one on Namek, who was actually confident he could take on Namek SSj Goku. A SSj Goku in B.O.G is far stronger than Frieza, Beerus just big dumb.
You would think that Buu would be referenced instead, but when looking over the timeline Herms made of established events, it seems like Beerus had already sealed Elder Kaioshin away about 70 million years (?) before Buu's first appearance. Wasn't Beerus hibernating for most of the remaining time until the present? I'm not even sure he was aware of almost all the Kaioshins being wiped out or absorbed by Buu.
Babidi and Dabura's assessments aren't exactly the most reliable. They're not aware of the Super Saiyan transformation but they assume that Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan will provide half the necessary power for releasing Buu (roughly equivalent to an SSJ2's), yet they believe that Pui Pui can handle them plus Shin all at the same time. Surely Babidi would be aware of how strong his own minion is. How does that work?
ruler9871 wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 4:33 am
That's not a rebuttal. You didn't address the arguments in it.
You can’t seriously expect anyone here to watch that video. There is nothing there you can’t type yourself. Make a properly written post. And I’m afraid that person watched a low quality version of Dragon Ball Super, since Beerus never said that. After you’ve watched the movie or the respective episode in Super, come here to tell what you’ve seen.
Beerus does state this: "But if this is all you've got, defeating Freeza would probably be the best you're capable of." (He states this just before Goku turns SSj2, so after he saw what SSj Goku was could do).
The fact that he uses words like "probably" when comparing Goku to Frieza says something, he isn't quite aware of how powerful Frieza actually is. And that should also make a lot of sense, it's been a damn long time since he has seen Frieza. Earlier, SSj Goku stated he was gonna go all-out against Beerus, yet he's still only compared to that of Frieza? All-out BOG SSj Goku would destroy Frieza, but Beerus still thinks that defeating Frieza would be Goku's best, which is pretty stupid for obivous reasons. I mean, SSj Goku was superior to the SSj Trunks that one-shotted a stronger Frieza than the one on Namek, who was actually confident he could take on Namek SSj Goku. A SSj Goku in B.O.G is far stronger than Frieza, Beerus just big dumb.
Right. The SSJ1s ever since going into the Time Chamber are all at least above 2nd Form Cell. So there's no way their SSJ forms (and by extension their base forms) could not have massively improved since Namek.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.
Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.
Hugo Boss wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 7:55 am
You can’t seriously expect anyone here to watch that video. There is nothing there you can’t type yourself. Make a properly written post. And I’m afraid that person watched a low quality version of Dragon Ball Super, since Beerus never said that. After you’ve watched the movie or the respective episode in Super, come here to tell what you’ve seen.
Beerus does state this: "But if this is all you've got, defeating Freeza would probably be the best you're capable of." (He states this just before Goku turns SSj2, so after he saw what SSj Goku was could do).
The fact that he uses words like "probably" when comparing Goku to Frieza says something, he isn't quite aware of how powerful Frieza actually is. And that should also make a lot of sense, it's been a damn long time since he has seen Frieza. Earlier, SSj Goku stated he was gonna go all-out against Beerus, yet he's still only compared to that of Frieza? All-out BOG SSj Goku would destroy Frieza, but Beerus still thinks that defeating Frieza would be Goku's best, which is pretty stupid for obivous reasons. I mean, SSj Goku was superior to the SSj Trunks that one-shotted a stronger Frieza than the one on Namek, who was actually confident he could take on Namek SSj Goku. A SSj Goku in B.O.G is far stronger than Frieza, Beerus just big dumb.
Right. The SSJ1s ever since going into the Time Chamber are all at least above 2nd Form Cell. So there's no way their SSJ forms (and by extension their base forms) could not have massively improved since Namek.
Ikr? I think people just underestimate the Base Saiyans because they always use transformations. Ever since like, the Android Saga, the Saiyans always used SSj, and also forms that are more powerful than SSj.
ruler9871 wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 12:25 pm
You're still dodging the arguments........
Which arguments?
Sūpāsaiya wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 12:43 pm
A SSj Goku in B.O.G is far stronger than Frieza, Beerus just big dumb.
Freeza is the strongest mortal Beerus knew of besides himself and Whis. I’m not sure how exactly you got the impression Beerus meant SS Goku is a hair ahead of Freeza. Beerus just said that defeating Freeza was the best that level of power could do, since it still couldn’t give a proper fight to a God of Destruction. Anything below god level would fit that remark. Anyway, even before SS Goku attacked, Beerus already could tell Goku defeated Freeza.
Desassina wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2019 5:40 pm
And all those things that were stated directly were cast doubt upon because we want to believe that base Gotenks is all that? Count me out man!
Which things?
The things that I posted, which were true, and somehow cast doubt upon, because base Gotenks being all that must prevail, when there's more than enough reasons to believe that, as yet another base Saiyan, he's not stronger than Piccolo showing strong.
Evil Boo is also different than Majin Boo. We learned that Dai Kaioshin was that strong even though he gave up his Ki, and that maybe it was his magic that locked Boo into his own personality, but that would be preventing the obvious point made by Goku: "Piccolo's coming out strong."
Do you see where I'm going with this? If we're simply going to find out of place statements or events to excuse the ones directly related to the issue, then there's a whole manga, some movies and an anime to consider. I drew a circle around the issue and caught those more closely related to it. That's all.
They were cast doubt upon because they aren't hard proof for Piccolo's superiority over base Gotenks. Even if we assume that Gotenks was defused once Boo took on Piccolo's cape (which is still an assumption), this isn't very telling due to Boo assuming Dai Kaioshin's appearence when he had already absorbed someone confirmed as stronger than Dai Kaioshin. Herms has also clarified that the "coming out stronger" isn't necessarily related to strength and rather, to Goku's observation on who was affecting Boo the most. Plus, we can still see a clear difference between the Boo with only Piccolo affecting him and the Boo with Piccolo and the kids (a image that's available for everyone, but if you can't find it, let me know)... So it's arguable, given the difference between both Boo's that the kids were even affecting him more than Piccolo, and that Piccolo could have been simply Goku's guess due to Boo acquiring his turbant.
Once Gotenks is formed, in base, Piccolo is blown up by their power in a more abrasive fashion than he was in comparison to the SSJ kids... And still commented that "despite Gotenks being that powerful, he is still no match for Boo". How do comments like this one give the impression that Piccolo still held an advantage over him? Not to mention not even attempting to stop Gotenks when this latter refused to listen to reason and decided to go after Boo, which he clearly would have done were him stronger than base Gotenks.
And this is all in relation to PRE RoSaT base Gotenks. Post Room Gotenks has powered up enough to surprise Piccolo, to the point green man thought their once hopeless situation had now a light at the end of the bridge... The same Piccolo who cast doubt upon their pre RoSaT chances against Super Boo and was counting with a miracle. So no way is base Gotenks below Piccolo, unless you rationalize all these tibits of evidence all in favor of Boo presumably assuming Piccolo's form when it isn't even confirmed whether Goten and Trunks were still fused or not.
