How many series exist for you?

[sintzu]

You think DB and Z are the same, but Super is different? I'm curious to know your reasoning on that.

The way it was made and written was very different from DB & Z. The writing for example in the original was based off Toriyama's manga so things were consistant while Super had multiple writers just doing whatever they wanted. This resulted in major inconsistaecies from one episode to another. I think someone from Toei even said that they had no road map while making the show and just allowed everyone to do their thing. Production wise, it was made 20 years after the original 2 so it has a modern look and feel to it compared to the classic feel the original had.

[ABED]

Not this crap again. DB was constantly changing and evolving its stories, structures, tones, and even art styles. It wasn't all the same and then boom - DBZ style. It didn't go from 0-60 in a second. It was a gradual change with a few watershed moments along the way (e.g. the 21st TB, the death of Bora, Piccolo's introduction, etc.) DB and DBZ are one series. DBZ was just a marketing tool to increase viewership and apparently it did it's job too well.

[ZeroNeonix]

Not this crap again. DB was constantly changing and evolving its stories, structures, tones, and even art styles. It wasn't all the same and then boom - DBZ style. It didn't go from 0-60 in a second. It was a gradual change with a few watershed moments along the way (e.g. the 21st TB, the death of Bora, Piccolo's introduction, etc.) DB and DBZ are one series. DBZ was just a marketing tool to increase viewership and apparently it did it's job too well.

Let me put it this way. If you started with Dragon Ball Z, as many fans did, and you went back and started watching the original Dragon Ball, would it seem like the same show to you? Yes, the series evolved over time, but by the time the Z name was stamped onto it, the art style was sharper, the action was faster and taken more seriously, the storytelling was different, the humor and tone was different, the character went from being a child to an adult... Heck, OG Dragon Ball didn't even have transformations or powering up scenes.

Even if you did watch Dragon Ball first before getting into Z, when you got to the part where Raditz appeared in a spacepod to tell Goku that he was an alien, you wouldn't have thought to yourself, "Wow, that was different?" You can't seriously sit there and tell me Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z are the same thing.

[Tai Lung]

I would say that DB OG was significantly different from DBZ.
as well as Dr Slump is different from DBZ

comedy, style and sagas

[MasenkoHA]

Let me put it this way. If you started with Dragon Ball Z, as many fans did, and you went back and started watching the original Dragon Ball, would it seem like the same show to you?

Not the point. You’re not suppose to watch DBZ first and then go back and watch Dragon Ball. The shift was gradual and happened before Z. I could slap some Faulconer music on Goku and Piccolo’s fight at the 23rd Budokai and your average Z fanboy wouldn’t be able to tell the difference. And honestly the only thing to distinguish Dragon Ball from Z by the 22nd Budokai is Goku being a kid. The tone for “Z” was set well before Toei stupidly slapped Z to the title.

A lot of long running series can change over time.

Smallville started out very Buffy wannabe in it’s early seasons and obviously embarrassed by it’s comic book roots but around the 8th or 9th season it was basically Proto-Arrow/Flash and more embracing of its comic book roots .

American Dad started out as Family Guy meets All in the Family before gradually getting its own identity.

Angel started out as basically CSI: Supernatural Unit before having more complex storylines

Sure, if you started with DBZ and then go back to Dragon Ball’s first episode it will feel weird but it would apply to almost any series. Go watch a modern Family Guy episode and then go back and watch the first episode.

Yes, the series evolved over time, but by the time the Z name was stamped onto it, the art style was sharper, the action was faster and taken more seriously, the storytelling was different, the humor and tone was different, the character went from being a child to an adult..

The action was taken more seriously by the 22nd Budokai arc if not sooner. Aside from being a kid Goku’s fight with Tao Pei Pei wouldn’t look out of place for Z

Even if you did watch Dragon Ball first before getting into Z, when you got to the part where Raditz appeared in a spacepod to tell Goku that he was an alien, you wouldn't have thought to yourself, "Wow, that was different?" You can't seriously sit there and tell me Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z are the same thing.

We can because that is objectively the correct answer. The manga is all just Dragon Ball.

[ABED]

Other than the Smallville example (yes it's very different from beginning to end but the creators were never embarrassed of its comic book roots), I agree with MasenkoHA's points. If you see the end of a long running story and go back to the beginning, it can feel drastically different. Person of Interest's final season feels VERY different from the start, but the roots are still very apparent. DB is the same way.

To the extend I understand the question, of those that I've seen, DB/DBZ, GT, and Super.

[MasenkoHA]

Other than the Smallville example, I agree with MasenkoHA's points.

Veering off topic here (oh well) but did you not think Smallville felt different in the later seasons? Things like Booster Gold, The Wonder Twins, The Legion of Super Heroes, Darkseid etc is something the early seasons would have never done. The high school years of Smallville wanted to be Buffy so bad imo. Without Buffy’s quality writing of course.

[ABED]

Other than the Smallville example, I agree with MasenkoHA's points.

Veering off topic here (oh well) but did you not think Smallville felt different in the later seasons? Things like Booster Gold, The Wonder Twins, The Legion of Super Heroes, Darkseid etc is something the early seasons would have never done. The high school years of Smallville wanted to be Buffy so bad imo. Without Buffy’s quality writing of course.

I edited my post so it's clear what my issue was.

Anyway, I am in agreement, DB like many stories changed a lot over time to where it feels like a different series.

[KBABZ]

I would say that DB OG was significantly different from DBZ.
as well as Dr Slump is different from DBZ

comedy, style and sagas

You haven't watched all the way through Dragon Ball and then moved on to Z then (which IMO is something every member here should have done at least once or seriously want to do but can't due to lack of time). Dragon Ball itself IS NOT one tone all the way through, and it gradually evolves into the style people associate with Z.

It starts as quite goofy and not entirely taking itself seriously, but in the very next arc it introduces some honest storytelling regarding Goku training with Roshi, not to mention it genuinely tries to fool the audience that it killed the main character. Red Ribbon removed the parody angle entirely compared to the first hunt and focused more on light-hearted adventure that gains a genuine edge when Blue shows up as the first significant adversary, and then a dark turn when Tao Pai Pai kills Bora in cold blood, upon which the journey is now about vengeance for a friend than just finding an heirloom. The 22nd TB is also a big contrast from the 21st, because Goku is now taking fights super-seriously rather than just for fun, and it features an incredibly antagonistic rival, far more so than Yamcha was.

Then we get to the big one: Krillin is killed off-screen and Goku weeps over his dead body, then flies into an irreconcilable rage and goes out for blood. Meanwhile, Roshi knows world domination is a legitimate possibility, a dark past is given to him, and Piccolo and his minions are overall a whole new class of villain. Oh and Roshi and Chiaotzu die entirely for nothing. This not even getting into the final battle, which ends with a Hiroshima parallel and a fifteen year old having three of his limbs broken and bloodied while his friend is held hostage, and it's played up for all the drama that implies. By that point, to me, Dragon Ball has effectively matched Z in both tone and action setpieces, and to say otherwise is to concentrate far too much on the show's beginning arcs.

Remember, Dragon Ball's very last fight ends with Goku getting a big bloody hole shot through his shoulder (which is later STEPPED ON), and gets all of his limbs shot, to not even mention the leveling of a city, AGAIN. None of that quite happens on the same level in the fights against Raditz, Nappa or Vegeta: it takes Namek blowing up to match it again.

While there is a seam in the two series, that's purely from a staff leadership standpoint: Z was still shown the week after DB 153 with the same animators, voice actors and movies and was presented as the continuation of the existing story in the exact same style, just with new intros and a snazzy new letter in the title. That there was a time skip there in the manga was purely a coincidence, and by nature of faithfully adapting a manga that DIDN'T have any change and just kept going as a continuous storyline, Z is just as much a singular story with DB as it is in the manga. Saying that there's a big difference between the two anime is to completely ignore the evolution that took place in the story while it was being adapted into that first anime.

And to be frank, to say that is to focus FAR too much on the "Oh I was exposed to Z first with the Falcouner score and edgy intro" and not on the original Japanese production of the anime and manga.

[MasenkoHA]

And to be frank, to say that is to focus FAR too much on the "Oh I was exposed to Z first with the Falcouner score and edgy intro" and not on the original Japanese production of the anime and manga.

This. Just because people started with Funimation’s reversioning of DBZ with Faulconer’s robotic sodomy music first doesn’t make it “correct” or give support to the idea that Z is so drastically different from Dragon Ball that it warranted another score even when many other foreign dubs kept the Japanese music.

The Wasserman/Falcouner music existed solely because Funimation wanted to make royalties off their own music. It wasn’t because the company that thought Vegeta killed Goku’s grandpa or that Bardock was a brillint scientist or Tao was a General and the heart of Red Ribbon Army just knew better than anyone at Toei how the series should sound.

And again, because KBABZ mentioned the manga, the actual source material never changed the title. It’s all Dragon Ball a series that evolved from a goofy gag parody of Journey to the West to a Martial Arts fantasy epic that could be both serious and comedic.

[KBABZ]

This. Just because people started with Funimation’s reversioning of DBZ with Faulconer’s robotic sodomy music first doesn’t make it “correct” or give support to the idea that Z is so drastically different from Dragon Ball that it warranted another score even when many other foreign dubs kept the Japanese music.

Agreed. I like most other kids in western countries was first exposed to Dragon Ball through DBZ, but I fell in love with the original DB. More than that though, in 2009 I decided to watch through the original Dragon Ball and then move on to Kai and watch the two Piccolo arcs for the first time, and I was genuinely shocked at how very Z-like the fights between both characters really was, and how dark and serious the story became. When Piccolo blew up Central City, I legitimately said "Holy SHIT this is basically a DBZ fight and I have NO IDEA!!".

The Wasserman/Falcouner music existed solely because Funimation wanted to make royalties off their own music. It wasn’t because the company that thought Vegeta killed Goku’s grandpa or that Bardock was a brillint scientist or Tao was a General and the heart of Red Ribbon Army just knew better than anyone at Toei how the series should sound.

Did the original airing of Z have a new score, or did that only happen when the Ocean cast was dropped?

[ABED]

This. Just because people started with Funimation’s reversioning of DBZ with Faulconer’s robotic sodomy music first doesn’t make it “correct” or give support to the idea that Z is so drastically different from Dragon Ball that it warranted another score even when many other foreign dubs kept the Japanese music.

Agreed. I like most other kids in western countries was first exposed to Dragon Ball through DBZ, but I fell in love with the original DB. More than that though, in 2009 I decided to watch through the original Dragon Ball and then move on to Kai and watch the two Piccolo arcs for the first time, and I was genuinely shocked at how very Z-like the fights between both characters really was, and how dark and serious the story became. When Piccolo blew up Central City, I legitimately said "Holy SHIT this is basically a DBZ fight and I have NO IDEA!!".

The Wasserman/Falcouner music existed solely because Funimation wanted to make royalties off their own music. It wasn’t because the company that thought Vegeta killed Goku’s grandpa or that Bardock was a brillint scientist or Tao was a General and the heart of Red Ribbon Army just knew better than anyone at Toei how the series should sound.

Did the original airing of Z have a new score, or did that only happen when the Ocean cast was dropped?

The Ocean dub did have a replacement score from Ron Wasserman, who was also behind Power Rangers and the 90's X-Men cartoon.

[MasenkoHA]

, and I was genuinely shocked at how very Z-like the fights between both characters really was, and how dark and serious the story became. When Piccolo blew up Central City, I legitimately said "Holy SHIT this is basically a DBZ fight and I have NO IDEA!!".

Yep. I think way too many fans associate the Shenlong arc as the entire tone for Dragon Ball

Like I said before you could take Goku and Piccolo’s fight at the 23rd Budokai in all it’s ki blasting and brutality and slap the Faulconer music onto it and your casual DBZ fan couldn’t tell the difference.

Did the original airing of Z have a new score, or did that only happen when the Ocean cast was dropped?

Like Abed said Ron Wasserman the Power Rangers guy did the music.

[KBABZ]

The Ocean dub did have a replacement score from Ron Wasserman, who was also behind Power Rangers and the 90's X-Men cartoon.

Hm, okay. My theory was that Funi saw DBZ as such a big money-maker, they were willing to spend more money to help it make more money. Inversely, they didn't see Dragon Ball as making a lot of money, so why waste money on it?

Like I said before you could take Goku and Piccolo’s fight at the 23rd Budokai in all it’s ki blasting and brutality and slap the Faulconer music onto it and your casual DBZ fan couldn’t tell the difference.

Makes me wonder if you could fool any of them by taking the 23rd TB, swap out the intros and eyecatches, shove in some Falcouner tunes and call it the Lost DBZ Prequel That Never Aired.

[MasenkoHA]

Hm, okay. My theory was that Funi saw DBZ as such a big money-maker, they were willing to spend more money to help it make more money. Inversely, they didn't see Dragon Ball as making a lot of money, so why waste money on it?

They initially did replace the score for Dragon Ball. When they dubbed the first Dragon Ball movie and first thirteen episodes in 1995 they used a replacement score with Peter Berring.

They probably kept the score for Dragon Ball because they were experimenting with keeping their shows more faithful. Yuyu Hakusho was dubbed around the same time. Z and GT remain an outlier. Don’t think any other Funimation dub replaced the score.

[KBABZ]

They initially did replace the score for Dragon Ball. When they dubbed the first Dragon Ball movie and first thirteen episodes in 1995 they used a replacement score with Peter Berring.

TOTALLY forgot about that! Was really interesting listening to that music on Spotify. The intro and outro are cool but the actual in-episode music is so synthy I found it hard to take seriously.

[Danfun64]

The Wasserman/Falcouner music existed solely because Funimation wanted to make royalties off their own music.

I can understand Faulconer (although since Funi broke up with Faulconer I'm not sure what the money situation is there) and especially Johnson and Menza... but Wasserman was Saban's thing. Are you sure Funi was making money off the Wasserman score instead of Saban? On a side note, Wasserman was slightly more justified than Faulconer/Menza/Johnson on account of the heavy editing going on. I'm not saying replacement scores are a good thing, but keeping Kikuchi as is never would have worked. Maybe if Wasserman was allowed to use silence like Berring was with the BLT dub.....

[sintzu]

By the time the Z name was stamped onto it, the art style was sharper, the action was faster and taken more seriously, the storytelling was different, the humor and tone was different, the character went from being a child to an adult... Heck, OG Dragon Ball didn't even have transformations or powering up scenes.

The art style got even more sharper in the Buu arc so does that mean it's "different" from the rest of Z ? The art style changed throughout both shows due to different artists being involved and Toriyama's style changing.

Haven't you seen Goku's fight with Piccolo at the tournament ? That was faster and more intense than a good number of Z's fights, including Goku and Vegeta's in the Saiyan arc.

The humor, tone, & storytelling were also different in the Buu arc compared to the Cell and Freeza arcs, does that make it "different" ?

You do realize everyone became adults in the 23rd Tenkaichi, right ?

The Saiyan arc didn't have transformations either so I guess the Z should've been added to the start of the Namek arc instead.

You can't seriously sit there and tell me Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z are the same thing.

In FACT, they are. The original manga from start to finish is under one name, Dragon Ball. Toriyama even went as far as to say they didn't need to split things up as the manga was ONE story. Are you seriously going to tell me that you know better than the man who created the story ? Do you even know why they split things up when they did ? They did it because a new #1 episode would give them a bigger marketing budget. I'm not speculating on this, they actually said it in an interview.

[Tai Lung]

You haven't watched all the way through Dragon Ball and then moved on to Z then (which IMO is something every member here should have done at least once or seriously want to do but can't due to lack of time).

for my fortune I saw DB OG first and then DBZ latin dub maybe in other countries they did not have that luck

Dragon Ball itself IS NOT one tone all the way through, and it gradually evolves into the style people associate with Z.

It starts as quite goofy and not entirely taking itself seriously, but in the very next arc it introduces some honest storytelling regarding Goku training with Roshi, not to mention it genuinely tries to fool the audience that it killed the main character. Red Ribbon removed the parody angle entirely compared to the first hunt and focused more on light-hearted adventure that gains a genuine edge when Blue shows up as the first significant adversary, and then a dark turn when Tao Pai Pai kills Bora in cold blood, upon which the journey is now about vengeance for a friend than just finding an heirloom. The 22nd TB is also a big contrast from the 21st, because Goku is now taking fights super-seriously rather than just for fun, and it features an incredibly antagonistic rival, far more so than Yamcha was.

Then we get to the big one: Krillin is killed off-screen and Goku weeps over his dead body, then flies into an irreconcilable rage and goes out for blood. Meanwhile, Roshi knows world domination is a legitimate possibility, a dark past is given to him, and Piccolo and his minions are overall a whole new class of villain. Oh and Roshi and Chiaotzu die entirely for nothing. This not even getting into the final battle, which ends with a Hiroshima parallel and a fifteen year old having three of his limbs broken and bloodied while his friend is held hostage, and it's played up for all the drama that implies. By that point, to me, Dragon Ball has effectively matched Z in both tone and action setpieces, and to say otherwise is to concentrate far too much on the show's beginning arcs..

Remember, Dragon Ball's very last fight ends with Goku getting a big bloody hole shot through his shoulder (which is later STEPPED ON), and gets all of his limbs shot, to not even mention the leveling of a city, AGAIN. None of that quite happens on the same level in the fights against Raditz, Nappa or Vegeta: it takes Namek blowing up to match it again.

While there is a seam in the two series, that's purely from a staff leadership standpoint: Z was still shown the week after DB 153 with the same animators, voice actors and movies and was presented as the continuation of the existing story in the exact same style, just with new intros and a snazzy new letter in the title. That there was a time skip there in the manga was purely a coincidence, and by nature of faithfully adapting a manga that DIDN'T have any change and just kept going as a continuous storyline, Z is just as much a singular story with DB as it is in the manga. Saying that there's a big difference between the two anime is to completely ignore the evolution that took place in the story while it was being adapted into that first anime.

And to be frank, to say that is to focus FAR too much on the "Oh I was exposed to Z first with the Falcouner score and edgy intro" and not on the original Japanese production of the anime and manga.

I have not said that it is ... but DB OG was much more varied than z that is noted in your comment indeed.
parody, comedy, fights, adventure, villains, tournaments, crossovers, fantasy, martial arts and drama
so the closest approach to dbz is the end with king piccolo - 23 tenkaichi that for me marks an end and a beginning of what then later would be dbz
saga saiyan - cell games feels a bit more limited because it is less varied but increases the intensity of the fights eliminating martial arts, adventure with less fantasy and comedy but there are more villains with a cast of characters somewhat smaller
it stayed that way until the saga of buu where part of the classic comedy returns to a great extent also here it is more noticeable the connection with super and the expansion of mythology and cosmology
but in general I can notice and differentiate several aspects between DB OG and DBZ regardless of the effort that has been had to want to keep it the same for the eyes of peolple but it gradually changed and that you can see between king piccolo and the arrival of raditz and this is where DB -DBZ are separate

[sintzu]

DBZ was just a marketing tool to increase viewership and apparently it did it's job too well.

You've also got to take into account that the original DB is constantly being left behind by the companies running the franchise. When it is taken into account, it's done so after Z which adds to the American (I think this is the only country with this problem) misunderstanding of it not being important or "different". Had DB gotten the same amount of attention as Z, this idea would've died down a long time ago.