"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
wolflonnie
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 346
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:57 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by wolflonnie » Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:00 am

Miracles wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:16 pm I think you are doing what a lot of the fandom does concerning the anime. Trying to rationalize TOEI's randomness with headcanon that was never in the story [Which proves that TOEI's writing is bad in itself]. Whis stated Goku trying to overcome the energy of the Genki and failing as it went inside him caused UI. We see this theme carried on with Kefla, where Whis and Beerus state it was due to kefla's massive energy that rivaled the Spirit bomb awakening UI. Being KO'd was never the reason stated to separate thought from body in the anime.

The manga is the most consistent with the theme of UI since the past principles of Goku are the fundamentals to Whis teachings on UI. Goku simply has to train more in order to access and use it. Goku has to train his spirit in order to use UI.
I don't think there's any headcanoning there and I agree with @Koitsukai.
The anime's intent is having Goku is a very dire situation and being almost defeated, thus his thoughts and efforts almost depleted. So he breaks his limits and by almost accident achieves UI. But he can't access it later because he can't replicate the dire situation/sensation he had. Makes sense.
The manga makes it look like he should, definitely, activate it again after a bit of training after the ToP.
There's no excuse.
This is no headcanon. Headcanon is when you fill the gaps in a way that is not within the author's intentions. But the intention, in the anime, is clearly there honestly. Writing doesn't require that you need to write, word for word, what is going on. Viewers can deduce that to an extend. Heck that would be considered bad writing, spoonfeeding.
You guys threat Toei as some incompetent clowns when they are not such thing.

Block88
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 3:28 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Block88 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:24 am

wolflonnie wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:00 am
Miracles wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:16 pm I think you are doing what a lot of the fandom does concerning the anime. Trying to rationalize TOEI's randomness with headcanon that was never in the story [Which proves that TOEI's writing is bad in itself]. Whis stated Goku trying to overcome the energy of the Genki and failing as it went inside him caused UI. We see this theme carried on with Kefla, where Whis and Beerus state it was due to kefla's massive energy that rivaled the Spirit bomb awakening UI. Being KO'd was never the reason stated to separate thought from body in the anime.

The manga is the most consistent with the theme of UI since the past principles of Goku are the fundamentals to Whis teachings on UI. Goku simply has to train more in order to access and use it. Goku has to train his spirit in order to use UI.
I don't think there's any headcanoning there and I agree with @Koitsukai.
The anime's intent is having Goku is a very dire situation and being almost defeated, thus his thoughts and efforts almost depleted. So he breaks his limits and by almost accident achieves UI. But he can't access it later because he can't replicate the dire situation/sensation he had. Makes sense.
The manga makes it look like he should, definitely, activate it again after a bit of training after the ToP.
There's no excuse.
This is no headcanon. Headcanon is when you fill the gaps in a way that is not within the author's intentions. But the intention, in the anime, is clearly there honestly. Writing doesn't require that you need to write, word for word, what is going on. Viewers can deduce that to an extend. Heck that would be considered bad writing, spoonfeeding.
You guys threat Toei as some incompetent clowns when they are not such thing.
Which are given most of the mind boggling stuff that transpired came from them.

Neither scenario make sense nor is better
Toyo had the right mind however botch the execution of it
Toei just relied on rule of cool and whatever to explain him acquiring UI.

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3744
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:11 pm

wolflonnie wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:00 am
Miracles wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:16 pm I think you are doing what a lot of the fandom does concerning the anime. Trying to rationalize TOEI's randomness with headcanon that was never in the story [Which proves that TOEI's writing is bad in itself]. Whis stated Goku trying to overcome the energy of the Genki and failing as it went inside him caused UI. We see this theme carried on with Kefla, where Whis and Beerus state it was due to kefla's massive energy that rivaled the Spirit bomb awakening UI. Being KO'd was never the reason stated to separate thought from body in the anime.

The manga is the most consistent with the theme of UI since the past principles of Goku are the fundamentals to Whis teachings on UI. Goku simply has to train more in order to access and use it. Goku has to train his spirit in order to use UI.
I don't think there's any headcanoning there and I agree with @Koitsukai.
The anime's intent is having Goku is a very dire situation and being almost defeated, thus his thoughts and efforts almost depleted. So he breaks his limits and by almost accident achieves UI. But he can't access it later because he can't replicate the dire situation/sensation he had. Makes sense.
The manga makes it look like he should, definitely, activate it again after a bit of training after the ToP.
There's no excuse.
This is no headcanon. Headcanon is when you fill the gaps in a way that is not within the author's intentions. But the intention, in the anime, is clearly there honestly. Writing doesn't require that you need to write, word for word, what is going on. Viewers can deduce that to an extend. Heck that would be considered bad writing, spoonfeeding.
You guys threat Toei as some incompetent clowns when they are not such thing.
If TOEI wasn't incompetent you too wouldn't need to headcanon for them about UI's random appearance which were clearly stated to be about huge energy awakening the form. You and Koitsukai don't agree with TOEI cause they didn't say the same things you two are trying to claim therefore you are trying to assume their intent which is headcanon.

The manga doesn't make it look like he should of activated again because it was repeatedly stated Goku needs to train. He still has to train the spirit in order to sever thought from body. Toyotaro actually used canon principles for Goku to think back on but he still has to continue train and master said principles to attain UI.

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 4276
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:05 pm

Miracles wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:11 pm
wolflonnie wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:00 am
Miracles wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:16 pm I think you are doing what a lot of the fandom does concerning the anime. Trying to rationalize TOEI's randomness with headcanon that was never in the story [Which proves that TOEI's writing is bad in itself]. Whis stated Goku trying to overcome the energy of the Genki and failing as it went inside him caused UI. We see this theme carried on with Kefla, where Whis and Beerus state it was due to kefla's massive energy that rivaled the Spirit bomb awakening UI. Being KO'd was never the reason stated to separate thought from body in the anime.

The manga is the most consistent with the theme of UI since the past principles of Goku are the fundamentals to Whis teachings on UI. Goku simply has to train more in order to access and use it. Goku has to train his spirit in order to use UI.
I don't think there's any headcanoning there and I agree with @Koitsukai.
The anime's intent is having Goku is a very dire situation and being almost defeated, thus his thoughts and efforts almost depleted. So he breaks his limits and by almost accident achieves UI. But he can't access it later because he can't replicate the dire situation/sensation he had. Makes sense.
The manga makes it look like he should, definitely, activate it again after a bit of training after the ToP.
There's no excuse.
This is no headcanon. Headcanon is when you fill the gaps in a way that is not within the author's intentions. But the intention, in the anime, is clearly there honestly. Writing doesn't require that you need to write, word for word, what is going on. Viewers can deduce that to an extend. Heck that would be considered bad writing, spoonfeeding.
You guys threat Toei as some incompetent clowns when they are not such thing.
If TOEI wasn't incompetent you too wouldn't need to headcanon for them about UI's random appearance which were clearly stated to be about huge energy awakening the form. You and Koitsukai don't agree with TOEI cause they didn't say the same things you two are trying to claim therefore you are trying to assume their intent which is headcanon.

The manga doesn't make it look like he should of activated again because it was repeatedly stated Goku needs to train. He still has to train the spirit in order to sever thought from body. Toyotaro actually used canon principles for Goku to think back on but he still has to continue train and master said principles to attain UI.
No, because I am not saying anything the show didn't say, besides if there is any headcanon it is Whis's, he explains the genki dama isn't the main point, it served as the force he needed to resist, the shell he needed to break in order to go beyond. Whis said that, so how come is my headcanon?
This happens too with mothers when their offspring is in danger, they can lift a car. His body acted as a mother, Goku was the kid, the car being the genki dama, and UI what lifts car. And it happened facing the strongest character the franchise had to offer, what's so random about that? If the car fell from the sky then yes, it would be random, but Goku threw the car and it got thrown right back at him.
Actually, headcanon to me would be to pretend it is all random and non-sense even though it can be easily expained. And it was, by Whis. Headcanon would be saying (before BoG +Super) SS4 Goku is the real LSSJ, or that Kid Buu is the strongest Buu, however, jokes aside, pointing out the blatant homosexuality in Top Gun isn't, because it doesn't change the story and justifies several decisions the characters made, or whether Inception's ending was a dream or not BASED on previous scenes.

I'm just objectively connecting the dots, this is what actors do when analyzing a play and that's not re-writing nor accomodating it to one's needs. Except books, every other medium gives you the liberty to join and fill in the gaps to MEET the criteria the author is proposing, as long as you don't add stuff that was not there and contradict the story(and I haven't). In Fight Club it is not stated, but by Norton's actions after shooting himself in the mouth you can clearly tell he merged with Tyler Durden and he is no longer Tyler nor his former self: he is both.

This is a problem I see in the fandom and I've seen it in this forum a lot, cases like "X was never stated weaker than Y, therefore X isn't weaker because it was never openly stated", but if they'd use some intuiton or the infamous "headcanon" simple stuff like that wouldn't have to be discussed. People are afraid to go as far as thinking outside of what the show explicitly stated because HEADCANON.

A level that not even a god can easily attain. One medium got there "cheating" through genki dama, the other one got there through some sort of yoga.
Manga Goku didn't have to break his shell in order to go UI, so there is nothing preventing him to do it again tomorrow afternoon, specially after his first attempts were so great. Yeah, he needs to train more like every other character in every other show in order to achieve anything.
Anime Goku DID have to break his shell, so it is expected for him to not attain UI any time soon.

What IS random of all of this is Toriyama's decision to give Goku a new undeserved power up and then take it away because it's not time yet. But nobody will ever blame Toriyama when they can blame it on Toei and the Anime.

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3744
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:02 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:05 pm
Miracles wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:11 pm
wolflonnie wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:00 am

I don't think there's any headcanoning there and I agree with @Koitsukai.
The anime's intent is having Goku is a very dire situation and being almost defeated, thus his thoughts and efforts almost depleted. So he breaks his limits and by almost accident achieves UI. But he can't access it later because he can't replicate the dire situation/sensation he had. Makes sense.
The manga makes it look like he should, definitely, activate it again after a bit of training after the ToP.
There's no excuse.
This is no headcanon. Headcanon is when you fill the gaps in a way that is not within the author's intentions. But the intention, in the anime, is clearly there honestly. Writing doesn't require that you need to write, word for word, what is going on. Viewers can deduce that to an extend. Heck that would be considered bad writing, spoonfeeding.
You guys threat Toei as some incompetent clowns when they are not such thing.
If TOEI wasn't incompetent you too wouldn't need to headcanon for them about UI's random appearance which were clearly stated to be about huge energy awakening the form. You and Koitsukai don't agree with TOEI cause they didn't say the same things you two are trying to claim therefore you are trying to assume their intent which is headcanon.

The manga doesn't make it look like he should of activated again because it was repeatedly stated Goku needs to train. He still has to train the spirit in order to sever thought from body. Toyotaro actually used canon principles for Goku to think back on but he still has to continue train and master said principles to attain UI.
No, because I am not saying anything the show didn't say, besides if there is any headcanon it is Whis's, he explains the genki dama isn't the main point, it served as the force he needed to resist, the shell he needed to break in order to go beyond. Whis said that, so how come is my headcanon?
This happens too with mothers when their offspring is in danger, they can lift a car. His body acted as a mother, Goku was the kid, the car being the genki dama, and UI what lifts car. And it happened facing the strongest character the franchise had to offer, what's so random about that? If the car fell from the sky then yes, it would be random, but Goku threw the car and it got thrown right back at him.
Actually, headcanon to me would be to pretend it is all random and non-sense even though it can be easily expained. And it was, by Whis. Headcanon would be saying (before BoG +Super) SS4 Goku is the real LSSJ, or that Kid Buu is the strongest Buu, however, jokes aside, pointing out the blatant homosexuality in Top Gun isn't, because it doesn't change the story and justifies several decisions the characters made, or whether Inception's ending was a dream or not BASED on previous scenes.

I'm just objectively connecting the dots, this is what actors do when analyzing a play and that's not re-writing nor accomodating it to one's needs. Except books, every other medium gives you the liberty to join and fill in the gaps to MEET the criteria the author is proposing, as long as you don't add stuff that was not there and contradict the story(and I haven't). In Fight Club it is not stated, but by Norton's actions after shooting himself in the mouth you can clearly tell he merged with Tyler Durden and he is no longer Tyler nor his former self: he is both.

This is a problem I see in the fandom and I've seen it in this forum a lot, cases like "X was never stated weaker than Y, therefore X isn't weaker because it was never openly stated", but if they'd use some intuiton or the infamous "headcanon" simple stuff like that wouldn't have to be discussed. People are afraid to go as far as thinking outside of what the show explicitly stated because HEADCANON.

A level that not even a god can easily attain. One medium got there "cheating" through genki dama, the other one got there through some sort of yoga.
Manga Goku didn't have to break his shell in order to go UI, so there is nothing preventing him to do it again tomorrow afternoon, specially after his first attempts were so great. Yeah, he needs to train more like every other character in every other show in order to achieve anything.
Anime Goku DID have to break his shell, so it is expected for him to not attain UI any time soon.

What IS random of all of this is Toriyama's decision to give Goku a new undeserved power up and then take it away because it's not time yet. But nobody will ever blame Toriyama when they can blame it on Toei and the Anime.
First, it's not random by Toriyama to give Goku a new form then not allow him to access due to not mastering said form cause he didn't achieve it through practice in the manga. Secondly, Manga Goku did have to break his limit to achieve UI, he told Hit this and was confirmed by Whis that he had to overcome his wall but was going about it the wrong way.

Finally, TOEI's randomness of Goku just trying to resist huge energy and getting a new form has no connection to Whis's mental teachings on UI [TOEI only addresses that later]. Unlike the manga it actually pulls back from DB's timeline and connects Super with Toriyama canon. It is arbitrary to have Goku just "lol I get KO'd by a stronger person I get to sever thought from body." There is nothing stated about Goku getting KO'd and allowing him to let go of the thinking part to access UI. Which is the headcanon I was speaking of that you made a couple posts ago.

User avatar
TKA
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1108
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:26 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:38 pm

There are stories about moms being strong enough to move cars when their babies are in danger. Obviously they can't call on this strength whenever they want because it's such a reactionary, and specific circumstance that brought out such physical might.

Same applies here. Under extremely stressful conditions, after 40 minutes of effort, Goku finally accessed it, and then after literal seconds of using it, his body gave out.

This isn't rocket surgery.
The Creatives who inspire me: Akira Toriyama, George Lucas, Chris Nolan, J. R. R. Tolkien and Zack Snyder


http://i.imgur.com/XAnj7Yi.jpg

You saw Batman v Superman? Is it the Ultimate Edition? No? Then you haven't seen Batman v Superman. Also, the Snyder Cut is the greatest, non-deconstructionist ensemble comic book film ever made.

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 4276
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:00 pm

Miracles wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:02 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:05 pm
Miracles wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:11 pm
If TOEI wasn't incompetent you too wouldn't need to headcanon for them about UI's random appearance which were clearly stated to be about huge energy awakening the form. You and Koitsukai don't agree with TOEI cause they didn't say the same things you two are trying to claim therefore you are trying to assume their intent which is headcanon.

The manga doesn't make it look like he should of activated again because it was repeatedly stated Goku needs to train. He still has to train the spirit in order to sever thought from body. Toyotaro actually used canon principles for Goku to think back on but he still has to continue train and master said principles to attain UI.
No, because I am not saying anything the show didn't say, besides if there is any headcanon it is Whis's, he explains the genki dama isn't the main point, it served as the force he needed to resist, the shell he needed to break in order to go beyond. Whis said that, so how come is my headcanon?
This happens too with mothers when their offspring is in danger, they can lift a car. His body acted as a mother, Goku was the kid, the car being the genki dama, and UI what lifts car. And it happened facing the strongest character the franchise had to offer, what's so random about that? If the car fell from the sky then yes, it would be random, but Goku threw the car and it got thrown right back at him.
Actually, headcanon to me would be to pretend it is all random and non-sense even though it can be easily expained. And it was, by Whis. Headcanon would be saying (before BoG +Super) SS4 Goku is the real LSSJ, or that Kid Buu is the strongest Buu, however, jokes aside, pointing out the blatant homosexuality in Top Gun isn't, because it doesn't change the story and justifies several decisions the characters made, or whether Inception's ending was a dream or not BASED on previous scenes.

I'm just objectively connecting the dots, this is what actors do when analyzing a play and that's not re-writing nor accomodating it to one's needs. Except books, every other medium gives you the liberty to join and fill in the gaps to MEET the criteria the author is proposing, as long as you don't add stuff that was not there and contradict the story(and I haven't). In Fight Club it is not stated, but by Norton's actions after shooting himself in the mouth you can clearly tell he merged with Tyler Durden and he is no longer Tyler nor his former self: he is both.

This is a problem I see in the fandom and I've seen it in this forum a lot, cases like "X was never stated weaker than Y, therefore X isn't weaker because it was never openly stated", but if they'd use some intuiton or the infamous "headcanon" simple stuff like that wouldn't have to be discussed. People are afraid to go as far as thinking outside of what the show explicitly stated because HEADCANON.

A level that not even a god can easily attain. One medium got there "cheating" through genki dama, the other one got there through some sort of yoga.
Manga Goku didn't have to break his shell in order to go UI, so there is nothing preventing him to do it again tomorrow afternoon, specially after his first attempts were so great. Yeah, he needs to train more like every other character in every other show in order to achieve anything.
Anime Goku DID have to break his shell, so it is expected for him to not attain UI any time soon.

What IS random of all of this is Toriyama's decision to give Goku a new undeserved power up and then take it away because it's not time yet. But nobody will ever blame Toriyama when they can blame it on Toei and the Anime.
First, it's not random by Toriyama to give Goku a new form then not allow him to access due to not mastering said form cause he didn't achieve it through practice in the manga. Secondly, Manga Goku did have to break his limit to achieve UI, he told Hit this and was confirmed by Whis that he had to overcome his wall but was going about it the wrong way.

Finally, TOEI's randomness of Goku just trying to resist huge energy and getting a new form has no connection to Whis's mental teachings on UI [TOEI only addresses that later]. Unlike the manga it actually pulls back from DB's timeline and connects Super with Toriyama canon. It is arbitrary to have Goku just "lol I get KO'd by a stronger person I get to sever thought from body." There is nothing stated about Goku getting KO'd and allowing him to let go of the thinking part to access UI. Which is the headcanon I was speaking of that you made a couple posts ago.
That was my point all along, you don't need that to be stated to conclude that a KO'd person has lost consciousness and his saiyan body with his roar and all took over and saved him by breaking his shell and was still in charge until Goku "fully" woke up and regained control, losing the glow in his eyes. Getting a taste of it, of that mindset, and later on trying to recreate it. That is not headcanon, that is what happened.

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3744
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:16 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:00 pm
Miracles wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:02 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:05 pm

No, because I am not saying anything the show didn't say, besides if there is any headcanon it is Whis's, he explains the genki dama isn't the main point, it served as the force he needed to resist, the shell he needed to break in order to go beyond. Whis said that, so how come is my headcanon?
This happens too with mothers when their offspring is in danger, they can lift a car. His body acted as a mother, Goku was the kid, the car being the genki dama, and UI what lifts car. And it happened facing the strongest character the franchise had to offer, what's so random about that? If the car fell from the sky then yes, it would be random, but Goku threw the car and it got thrown right back at him.
Actually, headcanon to me would be to pretend it is all random and non-sense even though it can be easily expained. And it was, by Whis. Headcanon would be saying (before BoG +Super) SS4 Goku is the real LSSJ, or that Kid Buu is the strongest Buu, however, jokes aside, pointing out the blatant homosexuality in Top Gun isn't, because it doesn't change the story and justifies several decisions the characters made, or whether Inception's ending was a dream or not BASED on previous scenes.

I'm just objectively connecting the dots, this is what actors do when analyzing a play and that's not re-writing nor accomodating it to one's needs. Except books, every other medium gives you the liberty to join and fill in the gaps to MEET the criteria the author is proposing, as long as you don't add stuff that was not there and contradict the story(and I haven't). In Fight Club it is not stated, but by Norton's actions after shooting himself in the mouth you can clearly tell he merged with Tyler Durden and he is no longer Tyler nor his former self: he is both.

This is a problem I see in the fandom and I've seen it in this forum a lot, cases like "X was never stated weaker than Y, therefore X isn't weaker because it was never openly stated", but if they'd use some intuiton or the infamous "headcanon" simple stuff like that wouldn't have to be discussed. People are afraid to go as far as thinking outside of what the show explicitly stated because HEADCANON.

A level that not even a god can easily attain. One medium got there "cheating" through genki dama, the other one got there through some sort of yoga.
Manga Goku didn't have to break his shell in order to go UI, so there is nothing preventing him to do it again tomorrow afternoon, specially after his first attempts were so great. Yeah, he needs to train more like every other character in every other show in order to achieve anything.
Anime Goku DID have to break his shell, so it is expected for him to not attain UI any time soon.

What IS random of all of this is Toriyama's decision to give Goku a new undeserved power up and then take it away because it's not time yet. But nobody will ever blame Toriyama when they can blame it on Toei and the Anime.
First, it's not random by Toriyama to give Goku a new form then not allow him to access due to not mastering said form cause he didn't achieve it through practice in the manga. Secondly, Manga Goku did have to break his limit to achieve UI, he told Hit this and was confirmed by Whis that he had to overcome his wall but was going about it the wrong way.

Finally, TOEI's randomness of Goku just trying to resist huge energy and getting a new form has no connection to Whis's mental teachings on UI [TOEI only addresses that later]. Unlike the manga it actually pulls back from DB's timeline and connects Super with Toriyama canon. It is arbitrary to have Goku just "lol I get KO'd by a stronger person I get to sever thought from body." There is nothing stated about Goku getting KO'd and allowing him to let go of the thinking part to access UI. Which is the headcanon I was speaking of that you made a couple posts ago.
That was my point all along, you don't need that to be stated to conclude that a KO'd person has lost consciousness and his saiyan body with his roar and all took over and saved him by breaking his shell and was still in charge until Goku "fully" woke up and regained control, losing the glow in his eyes. Getting a taste of it, of that mindset, and later on trying to recreate it. That is not headcanon, that is what happened.
It's not what happened because TOEI never explained it to be the case in the three opportunities Goku was KO'd. Besides TOEI debunks your claim with how Goku actually achieved severing thought from body with the manga explanation of spiritual discipline against Jiren. It wasn't from being mindlessly KO'd but through intentional internal subjection.

User avatar
emperior
I Live Here
Posts: 4322
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:52 pm
Location: Dragon World
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:10 am

TKA wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:38 pm There are stories about moms being strong enough to move cars when their babies are in danger. Obviously they can't call on this strength whenever they want because it's such a reactionary, and specific circumstance that brought out such physical might.

Same applies here. Under extremely stressful conditions, after 40 minutes of effort, Goku finally accessed it, and then after literal seconds of using it, his body gave out.

This isn't rocket surgery.
Yes but how do you explain Roshi being able to use a similar technique yet Goku still can’t? Also in the manga Goku clearly accessed Ultra Instinct through a change of mindset, not through overcoming his physical limits like in the anime.
Does it mean Goku is still forgetting of his old trainings?
悟 “Vincit qui se vincit”

What I consider canonical

User avatar
OLKv3
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1820
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:39 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by OLKv3 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:38 pm

emperior wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:10 am
TKA wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:38 pm There are stories about moms being strong enough to move cars when their babies are in danger. Obviously they can't call on this strength whenever they want because it's such a reactionary, and specific circumstance that brought out such physical might.

Same applies here. Under extremely stressful conditions, after 40 minutes of effort, Goku finally accessed it, and then after literal seconds of using it, his body gave out.

This isn't rocket surgery.
Yes but how do you explain Roshi being able to use a similar technique yet Goku still can’t? Also in the manga Goku clearly accessed Ultra Instinct through a change of mindset, not through overcoming his physical limits like in the anime.
Does it mean Goku is still forgetting of his old trainings?
Yeah, Goku forgetting UI in the manga doesn't make a bit of sense with how he gained it

User avatar
TKA
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1108
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:26 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:44 pm

emperior wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:10 am Yes but how do you explain Roshi being able to use a similar technique yet Goku still can’t?
Did you bother to read the original manga?

Roshi didn't teach Krillin and Goku any of his techniques. When they asked, he outright told them that learning techniques and such will be up to them and that he'll only teach them to be strong.

How can Roshi do what Goku couldn't?

1. Roshi is hundreds of years old.
2. Roshi knows more esoteric techniques than Goku.
3. Roshi isn't a saiyan who spent the last 20+ years of his life getting power ups because of his genes.

Mind you, the second Roshi gave Goku these hints, Goku immediately unlocked a better technique in moments than the one Roshi presumably took centuries to grasp.

Just apply a wee bit of critical thinking here.
Also in the manga Goku clearly accessed Ultra Instinct through a change of mindset, not through overcoming his physical limits like in the anime.
Does it mean Goku is still forgetting of his old trainings?
He achieved Ultra Instinct under pretty tense circumstances. The fact that he can't just tap into it again without those stressors also makes sense. It also correlates to what Goku said when Trunks asked him if he can transform into Super Saiyan at will yet. Paraphrasing, but "At first I couldn't, but I learned how to on Yardrat". Obviously, Super Saiyan is also triggered by hitting a requisite power level and a certain mindset... yet he couldn't just use it whenever he wanted at first. Hm.

Just apply a wee bit of critical thinking here.
The Creatives who inspire me: Akira Toriyama, George Lucas, Chris Nolan, J. R. R. Tolkien and Zack Snyder


http://i.imgur.com/XAnj7Yi.jpg

You saw Batman v Superman? Is it the Ultimate Edition? No? Then you haven't seen Batman v Superman. Also, the Snyder Cut is the greatest, non-deconstructionist ensemble comic book film ever made.

User avatar
Tai Lung
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1877
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:49 pm

Miracles wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:56 pm In terms of consistency of gaining UI, the anime failed. UI omen Goku was randomly triggered by huge energy twice [Genki and Kefla]. Then to achieve the mastered UI state he did what the manga did by throwing away harmful emotion. Now he can't get it again with no reason.

In the manga Whis stated Goku needed more training to maintain UI. Goku gave that same reason when Vegeta asked him about it. That he had to grind with no shortcuts. The manga has the consistent plot when it comes to UI, TOEI went from, huge energy, to internal discipline.
that is quite false ... goku in the anime could never access the UI on its own ... in the anime Goku needed a power that forced him to break his limits in addition to what he learned of whis's explanation in FNF
unlike the manga

which makes it incoherent in the sense that we all saw how goku achieved it by understanding roshi's nonsense and now he just can not .. because ... he just can not now.

User avatar
supersaiyanZero
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 415
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:10 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyanZero » Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:51 pm

Ultra Instinct is just yet another modern Dragonball concept that was butchered execution wise.

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by sintzu » Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:05 pm

supersaiyanZero wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:51 pm Ultra Instinct is just yet another modern Dragonball concept that was butchered execution wise.
They should've kept it to Omen.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3744
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:42 pm

Tai Lung wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:49 pm
Miracles wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:56 pm In terms of consistency of gaining UI, the anime failed. UI omen Goku was randomly triggered by huge energy twice [Genki and Kefla]. Then to achieve the mastered UI state he did what the manga did by throwing away harmful emotion. Now he can't get it again with no reason.

In the manga Whis stated Goku needed more training to maintain UI. Goku gave that same reason when Vegeta asked him about it. That he had to grind with no shortcuts. The manga has the consistent plot when it comes to UI, TOEI went from, huge energy, to internal discipline.
that is quite false ... goku in the anime could never access the UI on its own ... in the anime Goku needed a power that forced him to break his limits in addition to what he learned of whis's explanation in FNF
unlike the manga

which makes it incoherent in the sense that we all saw how goku achieved it by understanding roshi's nonsense and now he just can not .. because ... he just can not now.
The manga didn't give a specific reason as to why Goku can't use UI anymore other than he needs more training. The way it left wasn't what I applauded the manga about but where the manga obtained UI, connecting it back to Dragonball.

Also, Goku did access UI in the anime against Jiren. Where he subconsciously mastered it the same way in the manga through spiritual discipline. Now it just randomly left him without reason as well.

User avatar
TheSaiyanGod
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1906
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:09 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:01 pm

The whole scene in which Goku reaches the UI is full of moments of tension and emotion, well executed in visual terms, but in itself it does not make sense. Starting with the Genki Dama, which collected energy of less than 10 people and yet not only was it intended to defeat Jiren (superior to a GoD), but also caused Goku to arouse much more power than the SSB and conveniently, the Ultra Instinct that should not be about hidden power or a breaking of limits.

This also raises the question of why Goku transforms himself while using this technique, since it should be obtained through the action of moving without thinking (and through training, according to Whis). It makes sense to say that it is because of his Saiyajin lineage, but that is just headcanon because the anime never explains it

User avatar
Tai Lung
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1877
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:58 pm

Miracles wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:42 pm
Tai Lung wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:49 pm
Miracles wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:56 pm In terms of consistency of gaining UI, the anime failed. UI omen Goku was randomly triggered by huge energy twice [Genki and Kefla]. Then to achieve the mastered UI state he did what the manga did by throwing away harmful emotion. Now he can't get it again with no reason.

In the manga Whis stated Goku needed more training to maintain UI. Goku gave that same reason when Vegeta asked him about it. That he had to grind with no shortcuts. The manga has the consistent plot when it comes to UI, TOEI went from, huge energy, to internal discipline.
that is quite false ... goku in the anime could never access the UI on its own ... in the anime Goku needed a power that forced him to break his limits in addition to what he learned of whis's explanation in FNF
unlike the manga

which makes it incoherent in the sense that we all saw how goku achieved it by understanding roshi's nonsense and now he just can not .. because ... he just can not now.
The manga didn't give a specific reason as to why Goku can't use UI anymore other than he needs more training. The way it left wasn't what I applauded the manga about but where the manga obtained UI, connecting it back to Dragonball.

Also, Goku did access UI in the anime against Jiren. Where he subconsciously mastered it the same way in the manga through spiritual discipline. Now it just randomly left him without reason as well.
the conditions were also that he would run out of energy ... so that his body was demanded to the maximum was part of "breaking the limits"

out of I like the UI like skill in the manga but sincerely I prefer that knowledge is unique of gods or angels but the whis's explanation to goku does not exist in the manga

HeroR
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8306
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:28 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:05 pm

Lukmendes wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:50 pm
emperior wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:36 pm It’s even weirder because not only did Roshi retire in order to let the next generation take over (which was one of the main themes of the manga that Toriyama and company are completely forgetting nowadays) but he also was never even considered worthy of training under Kami, and he shouldn’t know of any other teachings Goku received besides Korin’s ones. Also, thinking about it, since when did Roshi even learn how to sense ki? Was that Battle of Gods?
At the lastest yeah, in BoG Roshi is the first one to say that Vegeta surpassed Goku, and he didn't know that Beerus had defeated SS3 Goku, so he had no way of knowing how Vegeta surpassed Goku unless he could sense ki.

And well, I agree about your points of Goku being weird in the manga in ToP, that point would only work if Goku wasn't training with Whis, since Goku has been relying on a way to power up and not much else around Boo saga (Even understimated how bad SS3 would fuck him up, and understimated Boo's healing), but he's been training with Whis who's been teaching him those basics, even at some point forbidding him from transforming while training, so suddenly making Goku be only "I NEED MORE POWER!" was odd... Still like that being reminded of other masters connect with UI, even if Kaio being there makes no sense if you know his actual training...

One thing worth keeping in mind though, Goku did go for "Even if it destroys my body, I need power to win!" before, which is what he did against Vegeta and Freeza when he used the highest Kaioken he had available, but it doesn't make much sense for him to do it to Jiren, against Vegeta and Freeza he was fighting some evil asshole who was going to kill everyone if they won, and while if Goku lost to Jiren everyone he knew would die, he doesn't point that out and just wants power to be able to beat Jiren, so against Vegeta and Freeza is was about stopping that huge threat, and against Jiren it's just his pride, funny that it could work if they just tweaked his motivation a bit lol.
Whis never forbid Goku or Vegeta from transforming. They did that on their own and it was only in the anime.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

HeroR
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8306
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:28 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:16 pm

wolflonnie wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:00 am
Miracles wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:16 pm I think you are doing what a lot of the fandom does concerning the anime. Trying to rationalize TOEI's randomness with headcanon that was never in the story [Which proves that TOEI's writing is bad in itself]. Whis stated Goku trying to overcome the energy of the Genki and failing as it went inside him caused UI. We see this theme carried on with Kefla, where Whis and Beerus state it was due to kefla's massive energy that rivaled the Spirit bomb awakening UI. Being KO'd was never the reason stated to separate thought from body in the anime.

The manga is the most consistent with the theme of UI since the past principles of Goku are the fundamentals to Whis teachings on UI. Goku simply has to train more in order to access and use it. Goku has to train his spirit in order to use UI.
I don't think there's any headcanoning there and I agree with @Koitsukai.
The anime's intent is having Goku is a very dire situation and being almost defeated, thus his thoughts and efforts almost depleted. So he breaks his limits and by almost accident achieves UI. But he can't access it later because he can't replicate the dire situation/sensation he had. Makes sense.
The manga makes it look like he should, definitely, activate it again after a bit of training after the ToP.
There's no excuse.
This is no headcanon. Headcanon is when you fill the gaps in a way that is not within the author's intentions. But the intention, in the anime, is clearly there honestly. Writing doesn't require that you need to write, word for word, what is going on. Viewers can deduce that to an extend. Heck that would be considered bad writing, spoonfeeding.
You guys threat Toei as some incompetent clowns when they are not such thing.
This isn’t head canon, the anime outright said this was the case. Several times in fact. It was so blunt that it was pretty much spoonfed.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

User avatar
LightBing
I Live Here
Posts: 3848
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:47 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:30 am

HeroR wrote: Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:05 pm Whis never forbid Goku or Vegeta from transforming. They did that on their own and it was only in the anime.
That's false, it's in chapter 5.

Post Reply