Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

I think HeroR has a fair point. There are plenty of reasons to doubt Goku’s assessment of his own strength before he fought seriously, he could likely not even know how far it goes. It would be a much better conversation if we just avoid taking either side as a fact. If.. we are really getting into this for the hundredth time.

[Block88]

Narration confirms Goku lied with reasons that he didn't want to use SSJ3 against Vegeta cause of the energy drain and he didn't want to beat fat Buu cause he wanted the next generation to be the savior's of earth since he was already dead. There is no plot point saying
Goku lied about Super Buu being out of his weight class like the other statements. Super Buu would waste Goku, that's a fact.

Exactly Goku mentioned he could beat kid Buu & fat Buu yet did no such thing with super Buu.
Su

[HeroR]

If we stick to the manga there is no Base Vegito to begin with so there is no point going there.
About the anime, how did you get to that conclusion? when did SS3 Goku demonstrate to be above SS3 Gotenks? I'm assuming you don't buy that Kid Buu>> every Buu non-sense

The anime outright called Buu the strongest form of Buu at least twice in the sub, or at least heavily hinted as such. That and sources outside of the anime actually called Super Saiyan 3 Goku even with Ultimate Gohan or at least on par.

As for how strong Kid Buu is, I will just say this. The only thing that we have about Goku vs Super Buu is that Goku himself said he stood no chance. The problem is, Goku was a freaking lair in the Buu Saga. He said he was only even with Vegeta and he could never beat Buu if Vegeta couldn't which is why he wanted to fused with him, only for him to asspull Super Saiyan 3 a couple chapters later. Than when Piccolo outright asked him if he could have beating Buu if he went all out, Goku said probably not since Buu was stronger, only for him to turn around and tell Vegeta that he could have, but didn't for the sake of the next generation. So I don't see why I should take Goku on his word on Super Buu when he claimed Fat Buu was too much for him when later said that wasn't the case.

So you believe Ultimate Gohan is equal with SS3 Goku, ok. I don't.

Didn't say that. My point was that only thing in the manga that says Super Buu was stronger than Goku was Goku himself and Goku was lied at least twice about his power, the most damning being him saying that he couldn't beat Fat Buu when directly asked only for him to turn around and say 'yeah, so could have killed that guy'. So why should I believe a word that comes out of his mouth.

That said, I do believe that Gohan was the strongest unfused character simply by the way the narration framed Gohan's power-up. However, it's perfectly possible for Goku to able to fight Super Buu and still be inferior to Gohan given that Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks was able to fight Super Buu as an equal, while Gohan smash Super Buu into mush.

And that's about how far I'm willing to go into this subject.

[Koitsukai]

I think HeroR has a fair point. There are plenty of reasons to doubt Goku’s assessment of his own strength before he fought seriously, he could likely not even know how far it goes. It would be a much better conversation if we just avoid taking either side as a fact. If.. we are really getting into this for the hundredth time.

I hope we don't get into this too but no matter what Goku said, we know where he stands in terms of power: not higher than Kid Buu, and Super Buu is higher than Kid Buu. And that's as far as I'll take it.

[wolflonnie]

I think HeroR has a fair point. There are plenty of reasons to doubt Goku’s assessment of his own strength before he fought seriously, he could likely not even know how far it goes. It would be a much better conversation if we just avoid taking either side as a fact. If.. we are really getting into this for the hundredth time.

My two cents. While I have no doubts that Ultimate Gohan (of that time) was stronger than SSJ3 Goku, I don't believe he was THOUSANDS of times stronger like many people insist, based on some claims and buffonery of a stupid kid and a desperate Piccolo. I believe that Toriyama intended more or less this logic:

- Ultimate Gohan is generally stronger than SSJ3 Goku, as well as SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu.
- BUT SSJ3 Goku can charge up his power and be briefly stronger than any of these guys. Of course, charging up takes time, which he didn't have against Super Buu.
- Buutenks, Buuhan and Vegetto are in a league of their own.

I believe Gohan is 2-3x times stronger AT MAX than an uncharged SSJ3 Goku, but SSJ3 Goku can become 1.5 to 2x times stronger than Ultimate Gohan after charging up.
I also think Kid Buu is slightly weaker than Super Buu and that's it.

Gotenks was never stronger than SSJ3 Goku just in SSJ. That was simply Toriyama joking around using Piccolo's desperation.
There was never anything serious about Gotenks vs Super Buu, excluding the last bits of SSJ3 Gotenks vs Super Buu.
It was nothing but a gag fight.

Do you guys seriously, seriously think Toriyama stood there and thought to himself: "man! What a guy that Gohan is! He's thousands of times stronger than Goku! Oh, and that Gotenks dude? Yeah, he's as well". No, he never intended his protagonist to be surpassed THIS much.

This cult of an unstoppable Ultimate Gohan is all sorts of wrong.

To sum it up, that's my scaling:

Spoiler:

SSJ Vegetto > Buuhan > Buutenks >> Charged SSJ3 Goku > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu > SSJ3 Goku = Kid Buu > Fat Buu > etc.

[Zamasu55]

Heroes logic:
Ssj Goku > Super Hearts > Hearts.
SsjB Goku > Hearts > Jiren
Piccolo > Hit and SsjB Vegeta
Ssj Future Trunks = Merged Zamasu.

[Hugo Boss]

I hope we don't get into this too but no matter what Goku said, we know where he stands in terms of power: not higher than Kid Buu, and Super Buu is higher than Kid Buu. And that's as far as I'll take it.

It was recently revealed that Pure Boo had god ki this entire time, which explains why Goku and Vegeta couldn’t gauge his strength properly.

Heroes logic:
Ssj Goku > Super Hearts > Hearts.
SsjB Goku > Hearts > Jiren
Piccolo > Hit and SsjB Vegeta
Ssj Future Trunks = Merged Zamasu.

It was said that Hearts was holding back. Once he got a little serious he stomped Blue. Jiren never fought him, so I’m not sure how they compare. Piccolo only took advantage from the time No. 17 saved to him. Trunks was never matched with Zamas.. Did you watch the same episode as I did?

[Zamasu55]

I hope we don't get into this too but no matter what Goku said, we know where he stands in terms of power: not higher than Kid Buu, and Super Buu is higher than Kid Buu. And that's as far as I'll take it.

It was recently revealed that Pure Boo had god ki this entire time, which explains why Goku and Vegeta couldn’t gauge his strength properly.

Heroes logic:
Ssj Goku > Super Hearts > Hearts.
SsjB Goku > Hearts > Jiren
Piccolo > Hit and SsjB Vegeta
Ssj Future Trunks = Merged Zamasu.

It was said that Hearts was holding back. Once he got a little serious he stomped Blue. Jiren never fought him, so I’m not sure how they compare. Piccolo only took advantage from the time No. 17 saved to him. Trunks was never matched with Zamas.. Did you watch the same episode as I did?

So, you think Hearts was going all out when, in his base, took care of Hit, Vegeta, Trunks and then Jiren all at once? K, then.

Piccolo punched Kamioren very hard before. And in the last episode he was even with Kamin who was rivaling Hit.

Ssj Tunks and Zamasu have been dead even in the last two episodes.

[Block88]

Heroes logic:
Ssj Goku > Super Hearts > Hearts.
SsjB Goku > Hearts > Jiren
Piccolo > Hit and SsjB Vegeta
Ssj Future Trunks = Merged Zamasu.

Why you keep bringing the anime power levels which is nothing but an inconsistent mess in the first place.

[Zamasu55]

Heroes logic:
Ssj Goku > Super Hearts > Hearts.
SsjB Goku > Hearts > Jiren
Piccolo > Hit and SsjB Vegeta
Ssj Future Trunks = Merged Zamasu.

Why you keep bringing the anime power levels which is nothing but an inconsistent mess in the first place.

Because it counts.

[omegacwa]

Heroes logic:
Ssj Goku > Super Hearts > Hearts.
SsjB Goku > Hearts > Jiren
Piccolo > Hit and SsjB Vegeta
Ssj Future Trunks = Merged Zamasu.

Why you keep bringing the anime power levels which is nothing but an inconsistent mess in the first place.

Because it counts.

Heroes is a just for fun promotional anime for a video game. It's pure fanservice and should not be entered into any kind of power scaling debate.

[Hugo Boss]

So, you think Hearts was going all out when, in his base, took care of Hit, Vegeta, Trunks and then Jiren all at once? K, then.

Piccolo punched Kamioren very hard before. And in the last episode he was even with Kamin who was rivaling Hit.

Ssj Tunks and Zamasu have been dead even in the last two episodes.

If you mean that skill that makes them feel heavier, that’s only using a special ability. He never engaged in combat with anyone until this episode.

So, Piccolo can put a fight. That doesn’t make him stronger than Hit or Blue.

I honestly don’t see how Trunks and Zamas are even. It seems Zamas is just dragging this to annoy Trunks.

[ZombieVito]

I think HeroR has a fair point. There are plenty of reasons to doubt Goku’s assessment of his own strength before he fought seriously, he could likely not even know how far it goes. It would be a much better conversation if we just avoid taking either side as a fact. If.. we are really getting into this for the hundredth time.

My two cents. While I have no doubts that Ultimate Gohan (of that time) was stronger than SSJ3 Goku, I don't believe he was THOUSANDS of times stronger like many people insist, based on some claims and buffonery of a stupid kid and a desperate Piccolo. I believe that Toriyama intended more or less this logic:

- Ultimate Gohan is generally stronger than SSJ3 Goku, as well as SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu.
- BUT SSJ3 Goku can charge up his power and be briefly stronger than any of these guys. Of course, charging up takes time, which he didn't have against Super Buu.
- Buutenks, Buuhan and Vegetto are in a league of their own.

I believe Gohan is 2-3x times stronger AT MAX than an uncharged SSJ3 Goku, but SSJ3 Goku can become 1.5 to 2x times stronger than Ultimate Gohan after charging up.
I also think Kid Buu is slightly weaker than Super Buu and that's it.

Gotenks was never stronger than SSJ3 Goku just in SSJ. That was simply Toriyama joking around using Piccolo's desperation.
There was never anything serious about Gotenks vs Super Buu, excluding the last bits of SSJ3 Gotenks vs Super Buu.
It was nothing but a gag fight.

Do you guys seriously, seriously think Toriyama stood there and thought to himself: "man! What a guy that Gohan is! He's thousands of times stronger than Goku! Oh, and that Gotenks dude? Yeah, he's as well". No, he never intended his protagonist to be surpassed THIS much.

This cult of an unstoppable Ultimate Gohan is all sorts of wrong.

To sum it up, that's my scaling:

Spoiler:

SSJ Vegetto > Buuhan > Buutenks >> Charged SSJ3 Goku > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu > SSJ3 Goku = Kid Buu > Fat Buu > etc.

Yup. I agree with all of this and we do have official information that puts SS Gotenks weaker than SS2 Vegeta before entering the RoSaT.

And lol at SS Trunks being equal with Zamasu. It's clear Zamasu is just fucking around with him.

[Block88]

Goku was inferior to gohan and gotenks doesn’t matter how much and nothing implies a charged up goku would change it that’s head canon

[Koitsukai]

I guess SSBlue matters again in DB Heroes. Vegito Blue Kaioken wasn't enough for Base Cumber, who answers to Hearts but is on par with SS Blue Goku... I love Heroes

[wolflonnie]

Heroes is an absolute, complete crapfest of power scaling
Still, the episode was actually nicely animated.

[Zamasu55]

I think HeroR has a fair point. There are plenty of reasons to doubt Goku’s assessment of his own strength before he fought seriously, he could likely not even know how far it goes. It would be a much better conversation if we just avoid taking either side as a fact. If.. we are really getting into this for the hundredth time.

My two cents. While I have no doubts that Ultimate Gohan (of that time) was stronger than SSJ3 Goku, I don't believe he was THOUSANDS of times stronger like many people insist, based on some claims and buffonery of a stupid kid and a desperate Piccolo. I believe that Toriyama intended more or less this logic:

- Ultimate Gohan is generally stronger than SSJ3 Goku, as well as SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu.
- BUT SSJ3 Goku can charge up his power and be briefly stronger than any of these guys. Of course, charging up takes time, which he didn't have against Super Buu.
- Buutenks, Buuhan and Vegetto are in a league of their own.

I believe Gohan is 2-3x times stronger AT MAX than an uncharged SSJ3 Goku, but SSJ3 Goku can become 1.5 to 2x times stronger than Ultimate Gohan after charging up.
I also think Kid Buu is slightly weaker than Super Buu and that's it.

Gotenks was never stronger than SSJ3 Goku just in SSJ. That was simply Toriyama joking around using Piccolo's desperation.
There was never anything serious about Gotenks vs Super Buu, excluding the last bits of SSJ3 Gotenks vs Super Buu.
It was nothing but a gag fight.

Do you guys seriously, seriously think Toriyama stood there and thought to himself: "man! What a guy that Gohan is! He's thousands of times stronger than Goku! Oh, and that Gotenks dude? Yeah, he's as well". No, he never intended his protagonist to be surpassed THIS much.

This cult of an unstoppable Ultimate Gohan is all sorts of wrong.

To sum it up, that's my scaling:

Spoiler:

SSJ Vegetto > Buuhan > Buutenks >> Charged SSJ3 Goku > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu > SSJ3 Goku = Kid Buu > Fat Buu > etc.

Yup. I agree with all of this and we do have official information that puts SS Gotenks weaker than SS2 Vegeta before entering the RoSaT.

And lol at SS Trunks being equal with Zamasu. It's clear Zamasu is just fucking around with him.

It's a regular Ssj against a character stronger than SsjB. He should destroy him in seconds. Yet Trunks is putting up a fight. And Vegeta too.

[Hugo Boss]

I guess SSBlue matters again in DB Heroes. Vegito Blue Kaioken wasn't enough for Base Cumber, who answers to Hearts but is on par with SS Blue Goku... I love Heroes

If you’ve watched the episode all the way to the end, it’s showed that Hearts is playing around with Goku. The episode just gave us a good fight, not a powerlevel indication.

[Zamasu55]

I guess SSBlue matters again in DB Heroes. Vegito Blue Kaioken wasn't enough for Base Cumber, who answers to Hearts but is on par with SS Blue Goku... I love Heroes

If you’ve watched the episode all the way to the end, it’s showed that Hearts is playing around with Goku. The episode just gave us a good fight, not a powerlevel indication.

Yet he had scratches all over his body.

[Block88]

I’m amazed how people are seriously arguing about heroes PLS
They don’t care people let it go