Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:33 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:46 pm
Thani wrote: Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:38 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:54 am

I always wondered why Fused Zamasu didn't just create a scythe and summon his own army of clones. If he had done that he could have defeated Vegito and Trunks. But I guess that that scythe thing was like a one-time technique or something. The scythe did disappear when Black used it to create the rift.
True, very true. But to be fair, Black never had the chance to use it again, since he fused with Zamasu immediately after. It was def a one-time thing, however, and it makes no goddamn sense for it to be! M. Zamasu is still a Super Saiyan Rosé, with both Zamasu and Black techniques. He even proved by making an upgraded form of Black's "Divine Lasso" in the form of his "Blades of Judgement" attack!

I fault the writers, honestly. Merged Zamasu had SO many cool options of attacks that he could do, but they never went true crazy with him.
To be fair, I can't blame the writers. Let's analyze Black's clones:

- They cannot be destroyed, in fact they just reform if you somehow manage to disintegrate them;
- They are limitless, there were like 20 of them at the beginning and the rift kept spawning more and more of them;
- Because of their numbers they can easily overwhelm their opponents by just swarming them;
- They are also quite strong, in fact they were able to do some damage to SSB Goku and Vegeta, so they are not just weak minions;
- They are spawned from a rift that blocks certain vital techniques like the Instant Transmission.

And now imagine all of that, but with clones of Fused Zamasu instead of Black. All I'm going to say is that they would have been forced to call Zeno much sooner.
Wasn't that what happened in the manga?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:55 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:33 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:46 pm
Thani wrote: Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:38 am

True, very true. But to be fair, Black never had the chance to use it again, since he fused with Zamasu immediately after. It was def a one-time thing, however, and it makes no goddamn sense for it to be! M. Zamasu is still a Super Saiyan Rosé, with both Zamasu and Black techniques. He even proved by making an upgraded form of Black's "Divine Lasso" in the form of his "Blades of Judgement" attack!

I fault the writers, honestly. Merged Zamasu had SO many cool options of attacks that he could do, but they never went true crazy with him.
To be fair, I can't blame the writers. Let's analyze Black's clones:

- They cannot be destroyed, in fact they just reform if you somehow manage to disintegrate them;
- They are limitless, there were like 20 of them at the beginning and the rift kept spawning more and more of them;
- Because of their numbers they can easily overwhelm their opponents by just swarming them;
- They are also quite strong, in fact they were able to do some damage to SSB Goku and Vegeta, so they are not just weak minions;
- They are spawned from a rift that blocks certain vital techniques like the Instant Transmission.

And now imagine all of that, but with clones of Fused Zamasu instead of Black. All I'm going to say is that they would have been forced to call Zeno much sooner.
Wasn't that what happened in the manga?
Pretty much. But if we apply Anime Zamasu in the equation, things get unreal. Manga Merged Zamasu didn't have all these power-ups (Halo form, Corrupted Form, Giantification) and he was not even that strong in the first place (Perfected Blue was nearly equal to him, with Zamasu being pretty much on the same level of power at all times, while Anime Zamasu tanked that Blue KK attack despite being defeated in the blast fight, possibly the due to a shock, in his weakest form. Of course this has to do with what you accept as a multiplier for Perfected Blue. Also Manga Zamasu was obliterated by Base Vegito, who in the Anime charged up to Blue instantly.)

Sidenote for the fight between Zamasu and Vegito: It feels kinda weird that in the Buu saga, Anime Vegito toyed with Buuhan at Base and went Super Saiyan for fun, while in the Manga he went straight Super Saiyan and in the Future Trunks arc he toyed with Zamasu in Base in the Manga, going Blue for dealing damage and in the Anime he immediately reached that level.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:53 pm

does anyone here think that monsters on G.o.D+ level like broly and jiren wont be introduced for a while? i feel like since fusion and UI are the only thinks capable of handling such threats, that maybe they wont as to not overuse both concepts.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:19 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote: Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:53 pm does anyone here think that monsters on G.o.D+ level like broly and jiren wont be introduced for a while? i feel like since fusion and UI are the only thinks capable of handling such threats, that maybe they wont as to not overuse both concepts.
Super seems to have drastically slowed down escalation in general, particularly the manga version which is much closer to Toriyama's outline. We're six arcs past, yet the antagonists of all of these arcs are either still fairly close to the protagonists' power at the moment without needing much powering up themselves (Golden Freeza, Hit, Fused Zamasu) or else still far above the protagonists (Beerus, Jiren, Broly). Moro, the newest antagonist, started out weaker than the final antagonists of all of the six previous arcs, but able to power up by stealing the protagonists' power with magic, kind of like Zamasu.
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:04 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:46 am - I would put ToP SSB Goku / Vegeta above Black by a good margin considering how much they improved during ToP. Black may have surpassed both with the scythe in the FT arc, but I don't see how he would handle the two Saiyans after the tournament
RE: That's fair, but it did seem like Black at that time surpassed them by a decent margin, so that they mostly closed the gap at the end of the ToP (kinda like Goku and Vegeta were decently weaker than Golden Freeza at the beginning, but eventually surpassed that level of power).

- Due to all the dialogues during the ToP (Supressed Jiren being stronger than SSJ2 Kefla and Vegeta and Toppo exceeding this level) I would put GoD Toppo over SSJ2 Kefla and Zamasu (as well as SSBE Vegeta)
RE: That's somewhat debatable, but I get your point. I think Kefla as SSj2 surpassed that suppressed Jiren since she was actually on the same rough level of second UIO Goku, who was a step above the one that gave Jiren a good fight.


- I have SSJ Broly probably above SSJ2 Kefla, but that's debatable
RE: I don't think so, imo, mostly because Broly's SSj seemed to be nothing out of the ordinary, it merely mixed with his Ikari state, retaining the green aura. So his boost from Ikari shouldn't be higher than a regular SSj, which, to me, shouldn't put him on GoD territory, which I believe SSj2 Kefla is really bordering. His FP is another thing entirely, imo, practically another transformation hahaha. So it's easy to accept how much it empowered him.
I believe the successive power ups that Goku / Vegeta received on ToP made them considerably above Black (probably these clones would not be as effective against someone much stronger, not to mention techniques like Vegeta Final Explosion that would probably kill Black), but I I understand your point.
Particularly, the idea of clones is cool, but I really don't like how it was executed. The slit that Black opened reinforces how strong he got, but then smoke clones that were shattered with 1 blow appear? It doesn't make much sense, and I think that's why Merged Zamasu didn't use it. It doesn't look like something that would definitely defeat Vegetto (who was also considerably stronger than him).

And I agree with the part about Kefla and Broly, it makes sense

Thani wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:38 pm
TheSaiyanGod wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:46 amAgainst Kefla, Goku barely had the energy to keep Blue (he didn't even intend to use this transformation). So I don't think he used it more than regular Kaioken. The same goes for Zamasu (Goku had both arms broken and very tired at that time, he just managed to give it a kick). Sure, it's just speculation, but it makes sense based on other characters' dialogues

Against Jiren Beerus says Goku was using everything he had, so I think it's safe to say he was using Kaioken x20
This is actually a good point, I had forgotten that part. Buuuut, I think it can be said that Goku was even more tired when he was at that point in the Jiren fight - he had already exhausted himself with the second UIO application, after all. I see your point tho, it's really viable. The best I can work with in this case is that Kefla was still getting stronger, since she was only compared to the Spirit Bomb after defeating Goku. So he could have used a lesser version of Kaioken on her, and it worked well because she was not yet at her peak, and then she continued to increase in power (she did power up together with SSB Goku, before he used a kamehameha against her, didn't she?)
In fact, I was relying on one of the synopses of EP 123 that said Goku would use the full power of the SSB, implying that he was recovered.

https://twitter.com/herms98/status/946347317631770624

Champa and Vados were constantly warning that she should be careful as she was facing Goku in SSB (implying that only that form could be too much for her) and Kefla was almost defeated by Goku SSB KK (undefined multiplier) with one blow.
So, in order for this dialogue about her power to rival Genki Dama to make sense, we can only assume that she somehow got stronger before turning into SSJ2.
ZombieVito wrote: Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:41 am Goku used KKX10 against Zamasu.

The preview for the episode specifically said Goku uses a "Life risking attack" and we have Kaio's conversation with Goku that warned him that using KKx10 specifically was very dangerous and could screw up his Ki indefinitely.

Against Kefla you clearly see his aura getting bigger while in Kaioken so it makes a lot sense he used it. I actually chuckled a bit when you said he was too tired in the ToP haha. Remember Vegeta? After defeating Toppo it was said he didn't have any energy left and then on the next episode he turned SSBE.
Until FT arc, even using regular Kaioken was a risk to Goku. Since he said that Kaioken with SSB had only a 10% chance of success he never used it except for that moment against Merged Zamasu, so he could never really master this technique. KK x10 at that time was also too much even for Goku with full power, and against Zamasu he was already almost without energy.

As for Kefla, it makes sense, I didn't remember Goku increasing his power against her. And while this whole energy thing seems like a joke on ToP (Goku was recovering energy while supposedly spending it), the dialogues implied that Goku was really unable to use much energy at least at that moment. But we are talking about TOEI and the writing was never consistent. However, at most I would say he used the KK x10, 20 times seemed a lot to who could barely keep Blue

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:42 am

I think the difficulty with SS Kafla’s powerlevel is that, if her energy rivaled the genkidama, her attack could have easily overpowered Goku’s kamehameha. But instead, she used tactics to hit Goku from behind, after failing in direct combat. She either wasn’t skilled enough to use that power or Whis’ assessment was off.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by omegacwa » Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:08 am

One thing about the future trunks arc in the manga that pissed me off was the massively inconsistent strengths.

Vegetto didn't instantly kill Zamasu, but Goku alone was able to match Zamasu. WTF. (Absolutely hated this horrible writing. This is definitely a moment to point to where you can say "Oh, Goku is the main character, no other reason for this")(Despite coming out of nowhere I prefer the anime version with Trunks using the Spirit sword. Way more emotional and Goku doesn't inexplicably fight Zamasu alone.)

Vegeta says that "only Goku can fight Zamasu" yet later Vegeta does an attack that if Zamasu wasn't immortal would have obliterated him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:27 pm

omegacwa wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:08 am One thing about the future trunks arc in the manga that pissed me off was the massively inconsistent strengths.

Vegetto didn't instantly kill Zamasu, but Goku alone was able to match Zamasu. WTF. (Absolutely hated this horrible writing. This is definitely a moment to point to where you can say "Oh, Goku is the main character, no other reason for this")(Despite coming out of nowhere I prefer the anime version with Trunks using the Spirit sword. Way more emotional and Goku doesn't inexplicably fight Zamasu alone.)

Vegeta says that "only Goku can fight Zamasu" yet later Vegeta does an attack that if Zamasu wasn't immortal would have obliterated him.
Very true. Btw, do you remember if Vegeta ever said something about Perfected Blue? After they diffused from Vegito didn't he say that he knew that Goku had such a kind of power within him? Or am I wrong? Does this imply that Vegito could use Perfected Blue? I think it would be useless against Manga Merged Zamasu though...

However, should Vegito use the form, they would probably annihilate Merged Zamasu.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:40 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:27 pm
omegacwa wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:08 am One thing about the future trunks arc in the manga that pissed me off was the massively inconsistent strengths.

Vegetto didn't instantly kill Zamasu, but Goku alone was able to match Zamasu. WTF. (Absolutely hated this horrible writing. This is definitely a moment to point to where you can say "Oh, Goku is the main character, no other reason for this")(Despite coming out of nowhere I prefer the anime version with Trunks using the Spirit sword. Way more emotional and Goku doesn't inexplicably fight Zamasu alone.)

Vegeta says that "only Goku can fight Zamasu" yet later Vegeta does an attack that if Zamasu wasn't immortal would have obliterated him.
Very true. Btw, do you remember if Vegeta ever said something about Perfected Blue? After they diffused from Vegito didn't he say that he knew that Goku had such a kind of power within him? Or am I wrong? Does this imply that Vegito could use Perfected Blue? I think it would be useless against Manga Merged Zamasu though...

However, should Vegito use the form, they would probably annihilate Merged Zamasu.

Even worse, Vegito Blue should've been able to also use HAKAI, maybe it wouldn't been enough and MZ'd regenerate again but he did use a cheap trick he even felt ashamed of, to not get hakai'd by Goku, so maybe a Perfected Blue Vegito using Hakai without wasting time could've made something happen. At least, would've been a better choice to deal with this kind of ultimate enemy hax than kicks and ki swords.

Now that I re-read it, maybe Vegito Blue vs the two Merged Zamasu would've been a better fight to see, instead of a three-attack stomp, progressing towards a Blue Vegito vs an army of MZ and just letting the fusion end as a result of the time passing and not because of too much power usage.
They made Vegito Blue a useless character, because at least anime Vegito landed that FKHH that, in my headcanon, weakened MZ to a point that Trunks could put up a fight, the kind of blow Gowasu was talking about that was needed to mess with the balance between immortal Zamasu and mortal Black, right before they decided to fuse. Manga Vegito could be literally cut off from the story and nothing would change. FKHH never actually happened, so not even that.

I do like better how the manga managed the let's call Zen O thing and just how over the top Zen O's decisions are. In the anime it shouldn't be a surprise that Zeno is gonna have to destroy the whole universe, in the manga it does sound like the guy is bonkers.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:48 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:04 pm
TheSaiyanGod wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:46 am - I would put ToP SSB Goku / Vegeta above Black by a good margin considering how much they improved during ToP. Black may have surpassed both with the scythe in the FT arc, but I don't see how he would handle the two Saiyans after the tournament
RE: That's fair, but it did seem like Black at that time surpassed them by a decent margin, so that they mostly closed the gap at the end of the ToP (kinda like Goku and Vegeta were decently weaker than Golden Freeza at the beginning, but eventually surpassed that level of power).

- Due to all the dialogues during the ToP (Supressed Jiren being stronger than SSJ2 Kefla and Vegeta and Toppo exceeding this level) I would put GoD Toppo over SSJ2 Kefla and Zamasu (as well as SSBE Vegeta)
RE: That's somewhat debatable, but I get your point. I think Kefla as SSj2 surpassed that suppressed Jiren since she was actually on the same rough level of second UIO Goku, who was a step above the one that gave Jiren a good fight.


- I have SSJ Broly probably above SSJ2 Kefla, but that's debatable
RE: I don't think so, imo, mostly because Broly's SSj seemed to be nothing out of the ordinary, it merely mixed with his Ikari state, retaining the green aura. So his boost from Ikari shouldn't be higher than a regular SSj, which, to me, shouldn't put him on GoD territory, which I believe SSj2 Kefla is really bordering. His FP is another thing entirely, imo, practically another transformation hahaha. So it's easy to accept how much it empowered him.
I believe the successive power ups that Goku / Vegeta received on ToP made them considerably above Black (probably these clones would not be as effective against someone much stronger, not to mention techniques like Vegeta Final Explosion that would probably kill Black), but I I understand your point.
Particularly, the idea of clones is cool, but I really don't like how it was executed. The slit that Black opened reinforces how strong he got, but then smoke clones that were shattered with 1 blow appear? It doesn't make much sense, and I think that's why Merged Zamasu didn't use it. It doesn't look like something that would definitely defeat Vegetto (who was also considerably stronger than him).

And I agree with the part about Kefla and Broly, it makes sense

Thani wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:38 pm
TheSaiyanGod wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:46 amAgainst Kefla, Goku barely had the energy to keep Blue (he didn't even intend to use this transformation). So I don't think he used it more than regular Kaioken. The same goes for Zamasu (Goku had both arms broken and very tired at that time, he just managed to give it a kick). Sure, it's just speculation, but it makes sense based on other characters' dialogues

Against Jiren Beerus says Goku was using everything he had, so I think it's safe to say he was using Kaioken x20
This is actually a good point, I had forgotten that part. Buuuut, I think it can be said that Goku was even more tired when he was at that point in the Jiren fight - he had already exhausted himself with the second UIO application, after all. I see your point tho, it's really viable. The best I can work with in this case is that Kefla was still getting stronger, since she was only compared to the Spirit Bomb after defeating Goku. So he could have used a lesser version of Kaioken on her, and it worked well because she was not yet at her peak, and then she continued to increase in power (she did power up together with SSB Goku, before he used a kamehameha against her, didn't she?)
In fact, I was relying on one of the synopses of EP 123 that said Goku would use the full power of the SSB, implying that he was recovered.

https://twitter.com/herms98/status/946347317631770624

Champa and Vados were constantly warning that she should be careful as she was facing Goku in SSB (implying that only that form could be too much for her) and Kefla was almost defeated by Goku SSB KK (undefined multiplier) with one blow.
So, in order for this dialogue about her power to rival Genki Dama to make sense, we can only assume that she somehow got stronger before turning into SSJ2.
ZombieVito wrote: Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:41 am Goku used KKX10 against Zamasu.

The preview for the episode specifically said Goku uses a "Life risking attack" and we have Kaio's conversation with Goku that warned him that using KKx10 specifically was very dangerous and could screw up his Ki indefinitely.

Against Kefla you clearly see his aura getting bigger while in Kaioken so it makes a lot sense he used it. I actually chuckled a bit when you said he was too tired in the ToP haha. Remember Vegeta? After defeating Toppo it was said he didn't have any energy left and then on the next episode he turned SSBE.
Until FT arc, even using regular Kaioken was a risk to Goku. Since he said that Kaioken with SSB had only a 10% chance of success he never used it except for that moment against Merged Zamasu, so he could never really master this technique. KK x10 at that time was also too much even for Goku with full power, and against Zamasu he was already almost without energy.

As for Kefla, it makes sense, I didn't remember Goku increasing his power against her. And while this whole energy thing seems like a joke on ToP (Goku was recovering energy while supposedly spending it), the dialogues implied that Goku was really unable to use much energy at least at that moment. But we are talking about TOEI and the writing was never consistent. However, at most I would say he used the KK x10, 20 times seemed a lot to who could barely keep Blue
Kaio specifically said KKx10 was risky for him but regardless if Goku was going to activate Kaioken then it makes sense to go for the best version he had. It was a life death situation after all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:54 pm

North Kai also said that predicting moves ahead of time also contributed to his disease, so it was probably a combination of those factors. Goku probably won’t try to use kaioken against Hit anymore, but he certainly can use it against other fighters.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:13 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:48 pm
Kaio specifically said KKx10 was risky for him but regardless if Goku was going to activate Kaioken then it makes sense to go for the best version he had. It was a life death situation after all.
Yes, I also think it would make sense for him to use everything he had. But he used so much energy and made so much effort with that Kamehameha that his arms literally broke. That's why I don't believe he could have force his body so hard to use Kaioken x10.
And what makes this distinction between these two levels of Kaioken difficult that the visual of SSB KK x10 was supposed to look different from the regular KK , but after the Champa tournament they just looked the same.
omegacwa wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:08 am One thing about the future trunks arc in the manga that pissed me off was the massively inconsistent strengths.

Vegetto didn't instantly kill Zamasu, but Goku alone was able to match Zamasu. WTF. (Absolutely hated this horrible writing. This is definitely a moment to point to where you can say "Oh, Goku is the main character, no other reason for this")(Despite coming out of nowhere I prefer the anime version with Trunks using the Spirit sword. Way more emotional and Goku doesn't inexplicably fight Zamasu alone.)

Vegeta says that "only Goku can fight Zamasu" yet later Vegeta does an attack that if Zamasu wasn't immortal would have obliterated him.
Vegetto was completely destroying Zamasu. He wasn't even touched by him throughout the fight, while Mastered SSB Goku was at most on par with him and his body could barely hold out for long (this is how I see how the manga wanted to demonstrate the power difference between SSB Vegetto and MSSB Goku).

Hakai was only used by Goku as a last resort, and after that he was completely depleted. There was no need for Vegetto to do that since he was much stronger than Zamasu.
And while I agree with you that it's disappointing Vegetto didn't use Final Kamehameha, he implied that with this MZ attack would definitely be defeated (it also made Shin compare him to Beerus), while in the anime this attack didn't even scratch Zamasu (the that's disappointing too)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:49 pm

You can look at Goku vs Kefla in a way that since Goku was capable of putting up resistance against the power of the Spirit Bomb although he was overwhelmed, it makes sense that he can put up resistance against Kefla's level of power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:34 am

Grand Marshal 1 wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:27 pm However, should Vegito use the form, they would probably annihilate Merged Zamasu.
He wouldn't since Zamasu is immortal.
TheSaiyanGod wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:13 pm Yes, I also think it would make sense for him to use everything he had. But he used so much energy and made so much effort with that Kamehameha that his arms literally broke. That's why I don't believe he could have force his body so hard to use Kaioken x10.
And what makes this distinction between these two levels of Kaioken difficult that the visual of SSB KK x10 was supposed to look different from the regular KK , but after the Champa tournament they just looked the same.
I guess this is where we disagree. The Vegeta example proves that stamina won't stop you from transforming under the right circumstances.

Another example is on E131. Goku can't even transform into a Super Saiyan at first but then he does it by determination alone by the end of his fight with Jiren.

Hell, I don't really want to take examples from the manga since I think it's complete shit but on the FT arc all 3 Saiyans transform when they shouldn't have any energy left to do so.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:32 am

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:49 pm You can look at Goku vs Kefla in a way that since Goku was capable of putting up resistance against the power of the Spirit Bomb although he was overwhelmed, it makes sense that he can put up resistance against Kefla's level of power.
It certainly looked that way when Goku fought Jiren, but when he fought Kafla it didn’t. Everyone talks about her power, but she couldn’t hit Goku directly. Actually, it seemed like Goku was the stronger one.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:52 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:32 am
supersaiyangodgogeta wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:49 pm You can look at Goku vs Kefla in a way that since Goku was capable of putting up resistance against the power of the Spirit Bomb although he was overwhelmed, it makes sense that he can put up resistance against Kefla's level of power.
It certainly looked that way when Goku fought Jiren, but when he fought Kafla it didn’t. Everyone talks about her power, but she couldn’t hit Goku directly. Actually, it seemed like Goku was the stronger one.
I guess an alternative explanation could be that Goku and Kefla aren't that much weaker than the Spirit Bomb. Obviously weaker but enough to rival it.

Maybe-

SSJ Kefla: 90
SSB Kaiokenx20 Goku: 95

Spirit Bomb: 110

On the wafer stickers, SSB Kaioken Goku does have a higher power level than Kefla, 8800 vs 8700. And that's SSB Kaioken Goku from the Jiren fight presumably since his Gi is still intact, so it would go against the notion that he "Zenkai'd" above the Spirit Bomb.

ankokudaishogun
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:58 pm

there is also the fact Goku was much more tired and weakened against Kefla than against the Spirit Bomb.

So a weaker-but-about-comparable Kefla could have still triggered the Omen activation because she was stronger in comparison.

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Noitsnothim
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Noitsnothim » Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:06 am

Aside from the wafers would it be possible to say that Full Powered Super Saiyan Broli is above God Of Destruction Toppo and is at or around the same strength/power as Jiren in his base (without him releasing his ki) ?

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Koitsukai
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:49 am

Noitsnothim wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:06 am Aside from the wafers would it be possible to say that Full Powered Super Saiyan Broli is above God Of Destruction Toppo and is at or around the same strength/power as Jiren in his base (without him releasing his ki) ?
I think FPSS Broly would force Jiren to rip off his shirt in order to put him down

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:01 am

Koitsukai wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:49 am
Noitsnothim wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:06 am Aside from the wafers would it be possible to say that Full Powered Super Saiyan Broli is above God Of Destruction Toppo and is at or around the same strength/power as Jiren in his base (without him releasing his ki) ?
I think FPSS Broly would force Jiren to rip off his shirt in order to put him down
I wouldn't go as far as that. I mean, I would place FPSSJ Broly above GoD Toppo and even above the peak forms of Goku and Vegeta in the end of the ToP (Blue KK×20 and Full Power Blue Evolution), perhaps at the realm of 3rd Omen Goku, given all the statements that Broly could potentially defeat Beerus. So, I would say that Broly should be able to force Jiren to 100%/Full Power, but LB/Super Full Power Jiren would be undoubtedly stronger.

If anything, when someone thinks about comparing the two, Goku would have made a statement based on Jiren's power for Broly if he thought that the Saiyan was on pad or stronger, as he just fought with the U11 Pride Trooper, but he used Beerus as a scale, who we know isn't in the realm of power of MUI and LB/Super Full Power Jiren.
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