Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

Aside from the wafers would it be possible to say that Full Powered Super Saiyan Broli is above God Of Destruction Toppo and is at or around the same strength/power as Jiren in his base (without him releasing his ki) ?

I think Broli is slightly stronger but Jiren is a better fighter. He almost defeated Ultra Instinct Goku.

[Koitsukai]

Aside from the wafers would it be possible to say that Full Powered Super Saiyan Broli is above God Of Destruction Toppo and is at or around the same strength/power as Jiren in his base (without him releasing his ki) ?

I think FPSS Broly would force Jiren to rip off his shirt in order to put him down

I wouldn't go as far as that. I mean, I would place FPSSJ Broly above GoD Toppo and even above the peak forms of Goku and Vegeta in the end of the ToP (Blue KK×20 and Full Power Blue Evolution), perhaps at the realm of 3rd Omen Goku, given all the statements that Broly could potentially defeat Beerus. So, I would say that Broly should be able to force Jiren to 100%/Full Power, but LB/Super Full Power Jiren would be undoubtedly stronger.

If anything, when someone thinks about comparing the two, Goku would have made a statement based on Jiren's power for Broly if he thought that the Saiyan was on pad or stronger, as he just fought with the U11 Pride Trooper, but he used Beerus as a scale, who we know isn't in the realm of power of MUI and LB/Super Full Power Jiren.

I agree Jiren is stronger at every step of the way, I'd say SS Broly would be crushed by the Jiren that got a little serious after Toppo got eliminated, but the full power of his SS (ungaugable, yes, we never saw him land a single blow so it's not that great but it could be stronger than Beerus.. or not) at least has to be on par with FP Jiren (the still dressed one) that fought 3rd Omen, or the Jiren preparing to "respond" to Goku's punch with everything he's got.
I personally think FPSS Broly could force Jiren, not as much as initial MUI Goku, to get a little angry, and then Jiren would defeat him in a fight clearly in his favour.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I think FPSS Broly would force Jiren to rip off his shirt in order to put him down

I wouldn't go as far as that. I mean, I would place FPSSJ Broly above GoD Toppo and even above the peak forms of Goku and Vegeta in the end of the ToP (Blue KK×20 and Full Power Blue Evolution), perhaps at the realm of 3rd Omen Goku, given all the statements that Broly could potentially defeat Beerus. So, I would say that Broly should be able to force Jiren to 100%/Full Power, but LB/Super Full Power Jiren would be undoubtedly stronger.

If anything, when someone thinks about comparing the two, Goku would have made a statement based on Jiren's power for Broly if he thought that the Saiyan was on pad or stronger, as he just fought with the U11 Pride Trooper, but he used Beerus as a scale, who we know isn't in the realm of power of MUI and LB/Super Full Power Jiren.

I agree Jiren is stronger at every step of the way, I'd say SS Broly would be crushed by the Jiren that got a little serious after Toppo got eliminated, but the full power of his SS (ungaugable, yes, we never saw him land a single blow so it's not that great but it could be stronger than Beerus.. or not) at least has to be on par with FP Jiren (the still dressed one) that fought 3rd Omen, or the Jiren preparing to "respond" to Goku's punch with everything he's got.
I personally think FPSS Broly could force Jiren, not as much as initial MUI Goku, to get a little angry, and then Jiren would defeat him in a fight clearly in his favour.

When you think about it this way, then even if Broly as A FPSSJ wasn't equal to Full Power Jiren, perhaps slightly weaker to 3rd Omen, we know that even with a considerable power difference the fight can be as challenging. (Freeza VS Goku)

So Jiren wouldn't be able to finish off Broly, unless of he tapped into Super Full Power. I think I can agree with you.

[Miracles]

Toriyama says the next opponent is always stronger. Even if Broly fought UI Goku, that version would be stronger than the one Jiren fought from the TOP anyway.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Toriyama says the next opponent is always stronger. Even if Broly fought UI Goku, that version would be stronger than the one Jiren fought from the TOP anyway.

Hhmmmmm, is this actually the case though? I mean, yeah he is the creator and stuff and when he says something it is usually Canon, but Toei also plays a major role in this with the producers. I mean, they don't really implement his ideas fully. Or Toriyama provides extremely rough edges on how the story should go.

This didn't happen with Broly, but it most certainly happened with the ToP. And the rest Super Arcs. I mean, compare it with the manga. Both had the same source yet are so different....I can understand this being the case here for as to why we are so confused with Broly's standing in comparison to DBS' top dogs. It is confusing for me at least.

[Brettjr25]

Quick question for the manga readers which I am not. If Vegeta achieved evolution form in the manga and Goku doesn't have Kaioken in the manga, does that mean that Vegeta is currently the stronger of the two, not counting UI since Goku can't tap into it. Or did the manga do something else to even things out?

[TheSaiyanGod]

However, should Vegito use the form, they would probably annihilate Merged Zamasu.

He wouldn't since Zamasu is immortal.

Yes, I also think it would make sense for him to use everything he had. But he used so much energy and made so much effort with that Kamehameha that his arms literally broke. That's why I don't believe he could have force his body so hard to use Kaioken x10.
And what makes this distinction between these two levels of Kaioken difficult that the visual of SSB KK x10 was supposed to look different from the regular KK , but after the Champa tournament they just looked the same.

I guess this is where we disagree. The Vegeta example proves that stamina won't stop you from transforming under the right circumstances.

Another example is on E131. Goku can't even transform into a Super Saiyan at first but then he does it by determination alone by the end of his fight with Jiren.

Hell, I don't really want to take examples from the manga since I think it's complete shit but on the FT arc all 3 Saiyans transform when they shouldn't have any energy left to do so.

Ep 131 Goku turned into SSJ only for a few seconds in his final attack (before that, he couldn't even stay in the form). In the manga both Goku and Vegeta had energy to use SSB, they just couldn't use it at full power (especially after Goku uses Mafuba and wastes a lot of his energy).

Against Kefla even the Z Fighters were impressed that Goku still had energy to use Blue. Beerus also says at the end of the fight that Goku could only use one more attack before running out of energy and back to normal.

You can look at Goku vs Kefla in a way that since Goku was capable of putting up resistance against the power of the Spirit Bomb although he was overwhelmed, it makes sense that he can put up resistance against Kefla's level of power.

Whis said Kefla's power rivaled that of Spirit Bomb. And we've seen that rivaling doesn't mean having exactly the same level, just being comparable (SSB has been consistently said to be a transformation that rival a GoD and we know it's far below the full power of a GoD)

[Hugo Boss]

Quick question for the manga readers which I am not. If Vegeta achieved evolution form in the manga and Goku doesn't have Kaioken in the manga, does that mean that Vegeta is currently the stronger of the two, not counting UI since Goku can't tap into it. Or did the manga do something else to even things out?

Goku actually used a technique similar to kaioken against Jiren in the manga, but it was seemingly less effective than Vegeta’s power-up. Anyway, none of them have been using those forms in the current arc. They’ve capped at SSBlue.

[Koitsukai]

So, everybody agrees GT Kid Base Goku being stronger than Kid Buu? equal to Z SS3 Goku?

[TheSaiyanGod]

Quick question for the manga readers which I am not. If Vegeta achieved evolution form in the manga and Goku doesn't have Kaioken in the manga, does that mean that Vegeta is currently the stronger of the two, not counting UI since Goku can't tap into it. Or did the manga do something else to even things out?

Actually Goku kind of has a Kaioken in the manga (not exactly Kaioken, but a Power up). Anyway, Jiren said that Vegeta "SSB Evolution" fought better than anyone in the tournament except for UI Omen Goku, so he is above Goku even with this "Kaioken"

[Soldierofficial]

Quick question for the manga readers which I am not. If Vegeta achieved evolution form in the manga and Goku doesn't have Kaioken in the manga, does that mean that Vegeta is currently the stronger of the two, not counting UI since Goku can't tap into it. Or did the manga do something else to even things out?

Goku actually used a technique similar to kaioken against Jiren in the manga, but it was seemingly less effective than Vegeta’s power-up. Anyway, none of them have been using those forms in the current arc. They’ve capped at SSBlue.

Vegeta used his new form against Moro.

[Hugo Boss]

Vegeta used his new form against Moro.

That’s odd. Despite the aura being exactly the same as the one he used against Jiren, they aren’t addressing it differently. Could this be the new default SSBlue?

[Soldierofficial]

Vegeta used his new form against Moro.

That’s odd. Despite the aura being exactly the same as the one he used against Jiren, they aren’t addressing it differently. Could this be the new default SSBlue?

I think that this form and the normal SSB are definitely different forms, Vegeta after this used CSSB again, like Goku.

[Noitsnothim]

Vegeta used his new form against Moro.

That’s odd. Despite the aura being exactly the same as the one he used against Jiren, they aren’t addressing it differently. Could this be the new default SSBlue?

I think that this form and the normal SSB are definitely different forms, Vegeta after this used CSSB again, like Goku.

Vegeta is the stronger one of the two which is why the galactic patrol prisoner saga puts him at the forefront and Goku takes the backseat
this arc is Vegeta's intro as the main character cause I believe toriyama will dis-include Goku at some point for him to start his Ultra Instinct training

[Miracles]

Toriyama says the next opponent is always stronger. Even if Broly fought UI Goku, that version would be stronger than the one Jiren fought from the TOP anyway.

Hhmmmmm, is this actually the case though? I mean, yeah he is the creator and stuff and when he says something it is usually Canon, but Toei also plays a major role in this with the producers. I mean, they don't really implement his ideas fully. Or Toriyama provides extremely rough edges on how the story should go.

This didn't happen with Broly, but it most certainly happened with the ToP. And the rest Super Arcs. I mean, compare it with the manga. Both had the same source yet are so different....I can understand this being the case here for as to why we are so confused with Broly's standing in comparison to DBS' top dogs. It is confusing for me at least.

TOEI doesn't change Toriyama's plot points. The anime and manga both keep the story paths the same. For example, Vegeta gets a boost in both mediums yet still gets plastered by Jiren.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Toriyama says the next opponent is always stronger. Even if Broly fought UI Goku, that version would be stronger than the one Jiren fought from the TOP anyway.

Hhmmmmm, is this actually the case though? I mean, yeah he is the creator and stuff and when he says something it is usually Canon, but Toei also plays a major role in this with the producers. I mean, they don't really implement his ideas fully. Or Toriyama provides extremely rough edges on how the story should go.

This didn't happen with Broly, but it most certainly happened with the ToP. And the rest Super Arcs. I mean, compare it with the manga. Both had the same source yet are so different....I can understand this being the case here for as to why we are so confused with Broly's standing in comparison to DBS' top dogs. It is confusing for me at least.

TOEI doesn't change Toriyama's plot points. The anime and manga both keep the story paths the same. For example, Vegeta gets a boost in both mediums yet still gets plastered by Jiren.

In DBS the next villains are not necessarily always stronger than the old ones.

And it's still hard to say what's in Toriyama's original script since when Vegetto appeared in the manga and the anime, a lot of people thought it was his plot point. But we saw that it was actually a Toyotaro idea that Toriyama accepted (just like SSG Vegeta)

[Miracles]

Hhmmmmm, is this actually the case though? I mean, yeah he is the creator and stuff and when he says something it is usually Canon, but Toei also plays a major role in this with the producers. I mean, they don't really implement his ideas fully. Or Toriyama provides extremely rough edges on how the story should go.

This didn't happen with Broly, but it most certainly happened with the ToP. And the rest Super Arcs. I mean, compare it with the manga. Both had the same source yet are so different....I can understand this being the case here for as to why we are so confused with Broly's standing in comparison to DBS' top dogs. It is confusing for me at least.

TOEI doesn't change Toriyama's plot points. The anime and manga both keep the story paths the same. For example, Vegeta gets a boost in both mediums yet still gets plastered by Jiren.

In DBS the next villains are not necessarily always stronger than the old ones.

And it's still hard to say what's in Toriyama's original script since when Vegetto appeared in the manga and the anime, a lot of people thought it was his plot point. But we saw that it was actually a Toyotaro idea that Toriyama accepted (just like SSG Vegeta)

Adding slight changes doesn't alter the outcome of Toriyama's story. Zenoh still beat Zamas, not Vegetto/Goku/Vegeta.
Even in Super, the next villains are stronger than the last. This is too evident and goes without saying.

[Koitsukai]

But Moro isn't stronger than Broly, and unless some Toyofuck it'll remain that way, and Broly isn't stronger than Jiren. Moro probably isn't stronger than Black Rose either. Just like Kid Buu wasn't stronger than Buuhan. Out-of-universe headcanon has room for little to no debate at all, so I won't be going there.

Anyway, about GT: how much stronger than GT SS3 Goku do you guys say Vegeta Baby was? 4x stronger could work? much more?

About Z: Could Base Vegito have used some form of kaioken against Buuhan in order to have the upper hand without being, already in base, stronger than him?

[ZombieVito]

About Z: Could Base Vegito have used some form of kaioken against Buuhan in order to have the upper hand without being, already in base, stronger than him?

Yes but it would be foolish.

Why be 20 times stronger with strain if you can be 50 times without any strain?

[Grand Marshal 1]

But Moro isn't stronger than Broly, and unless some Toyofuck it'll remain that way, and Broly isn't stronger than Jiren. Moro probably isn't stronger than Black Rose either. Just like Kid Buu wasn't stronger than Buuhan. Out-of-universe headcanon has room for little to no debate at all, so I won't be going there.

Anyway, about GT: how much stronger than GT SS3 Goku do you guys say Vegeta Baby was? 4x stronger could work? much more?

About Z: Could Base Vegito have used some form of kaioken against Buuhan in order to have the upper hand without being, already in base, stronger than him?

People kept saying that Baby-Vegeta's Base is 8×Goku's SSJ3. So here is what I understand from that part of GT.

In the very beginning, when Goku in Base clashes with Uub, everyone suddenly, out of nowhere says that Uub is equal to Kid Buu due to him being his incarnation. Okay, let's say that I agree, never was it stated that Uub would be at Kid Buu's level of power though. Power isn't something inherent. He would have the Majin's potential, yes, but not his power, or say his regeneration abilities.

Anyway, I think that Uub hadn't reached that level of power yet. Even after he trained with Goku and the duo stopped, he insisted on practicing himself to further increase his power. If anything, Uub might have only used in his battle with Goku only a part of his already low power in comparison to Kid Buu.

A Super Saiyan difference in bases with their Buu arc selves could work out well. A massive increase, but not an absolutely massive.

Before I get to the fights with Rilldo, let me state a couple of things about the Sigma Force and Luud and other minors.

One of the first major enemies of the group was Leon, a large machine mutant Lion-like being that was owned by Cardinal Mutchy Mutchy. When she witnessed that Goku in Base and Trunks were too much of a threat, he thought that his creation could handle them, something that didn't really happen, as Goku brought down the ceiling on top of the being and killed it. So it's way below Goku's Base, but I can't say the same for Trunks. I doubt that he and Goten can even exert 10% of Goku's powers. They are around just for being relevant. Goku is the real powerhouse. So if Goku at Base is equal to his SSJ self from the Buu arc, this monster could have very well been an easy task for him back then. Not an abomination that would require low SSJ3 levels of power or anything.

(As for Trunks and Goten getting only 5 times stronger than Goku's Buu arc Base, I find it highly plausible as neither of them trained after the fights ended and their Bases in the Buu arc were rather low in comparison to Goku, with them only surpassing him momentarily via Fusion (at least with the old pre-retconned Fusion))

As for Mutchy himself, Goku clearly went Super Saiyan against him in order to use for extra speed. Of course his power came handy, but it was Mutchy's abilities that brought Goku down, who wasn't really trying. And that is because a blast from Base Trunks took him out. Low SSJ Buu arc level for him, if someone is cautious of his abilities.

Then on to Luud. When he is awaken in his 2nd level (assuming his 1st level is his statue form) he is said to possess great power. He initially takes the duo by surprise with even a Kamehameha being tanked suggesting his superiority to Mutchy and Leon, but when the Saiyans go SSJ, he is instantly overwhelmed. However, they use this opening and while at Base they overrun Luud. This could have been an enemy equal to something above SSJ for Buu Arc level.

In his 3rd level or Full Power, he grows exponentially stronger. Goku claims that the Machine Mutant has immense power. But it gest kinda complicated, as he Goku neither Trunks ever went SSJ against him. Perhaps there was no need to and especially after they discovered his weak point. So this Luud could be 5 times stronger than his previous level. A Buu Saga Goku might have needed to use SSJ3 but not to it's full power. No feat indicated Luud being hundreds of times superior to SSJ3 Buu Saga Goku. But of course we can't say so because some could compare Saiyan Saga feats and say that Nappa can defeat Luud. There is some connection with the previous arcs, but not a massive skip in power.

The Sigma Force is next. Upon meeting with them, Goku states that they have amazing power, suggesting that they are superior to Luud. Of course he might be referring to them as a group collectively and not as individuals. Even so, it is safe to assume that each one of them has a level of power near that of full power Level 2 Luud. That was his normal strength, so that's how they should be compared. That makes 4 members of the force being at a Base Goku level from GT, or SSJ from Buu Saga and their collective power on PAR with Full Power Luud. Half the power of a SSJ3 Buu saga Goku. That's impressive power. The same power that was possibly unleashed from the fight of SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta. A great deal for some droids. Even so, Goku may state that they aren't that impressive after all, as he forced them to fuse while in his Base. Super Mega Cannon Sigma is formed and challenes Goku. Of course Natt is missing as it was destroyed and was revealed to be the weakest among the Force, but still in that SSJ Goku Buu saga level. Super Sigma is undoubtedly stronger than Luud. With Goku unleashing his true full Base power and defeating them. They were perhaps 3 times stronger than the 3 individuals sum power that fused. Stronger than SSJ3 Buu saga Goku for sure. Stronger than Full Power Luud who is only half as powerful.

Reminder, Goku doesn't have to go SSJ unless his opponent is truly strong, as his Base can take on other stronger enemies, by just powering up.

On to the fight with Rilldo. The person who is probably as strong as Majin Buu. Majin Buu never received a clear reading of his power. Goku could have annihilated him as a Super Saiyan 3, or he could have not been able to ever defeat him. Of course, Rilldo's statements can be used either on Good Buu (the one who lives with the family) or Fat Buu (the one who fought SSJ3 Goku and imo is comparable in power to Super Buu, with a personality change). For me it is Fat Buu. This way Base Rilldo is already as strong, if not stronger than Super Sigma, who was bellow him in power. Also Goku states "perhaps stronger than Buu" which means that Rilldo is high SSJ3 Buu saga level. See how this works out?

Anyway, Rilldo in Base fights with Base Goku, with the latter acknowledging his power but without it being enough to force Goku go SSJ. After Rilldo is easily defeated by Base Goku, he rebuilds the Sigma Force and captures Goku, but he goes SSJ momentarily to break free, annihilating them in the process. Thus Rilldo is taken back by this and absorbs the Sigma Force members to transform into Hyper Mega Rilldo. This should be a form with double his power given the power of the Sigma Force as the Super Mega Cannon plus Natt. This is an opponent stronger than SSJ3 Buu saga Goku ofcourse. Nearly twice as strong. Super Buu's max level of power perhaps. Despite putting a decent fight, he is still no match for SSJ Goku. Incapable of defeating the Saiyan he transforms again into his Metal Rilldo state. Let's say that this is another 2 times multiplier on top of the previous state, or 4×SSJ3 Buu saga Goku. Even so, Rilldo is inferior to Super Saiyan Goku in power, but in order for Goku to keep that great advantage in power, he goes momentarily SSJ2. Rilldo has a great advantage though. Despite being so weak in comparison, he can't be killed unless the planet is destroyed. At his final state he should be at Buutenks' level.

And now on to Baby. We have to remember many things about these fights. First, Goku is a kid and cannot use instant transmission, nor utilize his SSJ3 powers efficiently enough. Furthermore, the whole time since the beginning of GT, which has been more than a year, Uub has been constantly training. Now, he might have truly reached Kid Buu's level. When Super Baby's power was regarded as the strongest one ever felt by Goku, it is pretty clear that he didn't mean Super Vegito, because you can't search and feel your own power. He meant Buuhan. If someone is in the mood he can put Super Vegito into the argument. So Super Baby Vegeta is perhaps stronger than Super Vegito. If GT Base Goku equals Buu saga Super Saiyan Goku, then Base Vegito is 8 times stronger. Which means that his SSJ is 8 times stronger than GT Goku's SSJ, which itself means that SSJ3 GT Goku is equal to Super Vegito! And Super Baby Vegeta is stronger than Super Vegito or SSJ3 GT Goku in this case. Which still means that GT Goku can solo the Z universe with SSJ3 being his greatest form. And when Super Baby Vegeta 2 battles Uub and unleashes some of his true power, it is because he is 8 times stronger than Super Vegito, but Uub is comparable if not stronger to enraged Buuhan with that blast and Baby was exaggerating a little. So he just unleashed his true power to showcase that. Remember that Uub had amazing potential for growth,making up for not transforming.

I might have gone a little wild. But yeah the 8 times difference is perhaps a good one compared to Goku. I hope that with this scale I cleared some things up. Let me summarize.

(I compare GT with Buu saga characters)

• Base GT Goku=SSJ Z Goku

• Base GT Trunks/Goten=5×Z Base Goku or 10% Base GT Goku

• Uub (early GT)=SSJ Z Goku

• Leon=Below SSJ Z Goku

• Mutchy=Low SSJ Z Goku

• Luud 2nd Level=SSJ Z Goku

• Luud 3rd Level=Low SSJ3 Z Goku

• Sigma Force members=SSJ Z Goku (Natt being the only one slightly weaker)

• Super Mega Cannon Sigma=SSJ3 Z Goku

• Base Rilldo=SSJ3 Z Goku

• Uub (Baby Saga)=Kid Buu/SSJ3 Z Goku

• Hyper Mega Rilldo=2× SSJ3 Z Goku

• Metal Rilldo=4× SSJ3 Z Goku/Buutenks

• Majuub=Super Buu (early on), Enraged Buuhan (after adapting and growing in power)

• Base Baby Vegeta=8×Base GT Goku

• Base Vegito=SSJ3 Z Goku

• Super Vegito=SSJ3 GT Goku

• Super Saiyan Baby Vegeta=Super Vegito(is stronger than Super Vegito but not by a great margin)

May Zamasu's Blades of Judgement be brought down on me by the other power scalers