Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Koitsukai]

About Z: Could Base Vegito have used some form of kaioken against Buuhan in order to have the upper hand without being, already in base, stronger than him?

Yes but it would be foolish.

Why be 20 times stronger with strain if you can be 50 times without any strain?

But if Base Vegito is the result of the strongest form of the fusees, meaning he equals SS3 Goku, he wouldn't really need such a high kaioken.
In your list, Base Vegito is below SS3 Goku which could also work, and Buuhan like 4 times stronger than Base Vegito, right? so even a lower kaioken could do the job, 5x would be enough to kick ass without a notorious strain. Why? I don't know, I was just trying to explain how could he take on Buuhan in base and reconciliate manga and anime, which might be impossible.

I might have gone a little wild. But yeah the 8 times difference is perhaps a good one compared to Goku. I hope that with this scale I cleared some things up. Let me summarize.

(I compare GT with Buu saga characters)

• Base GT Goku=SSJ Z Goku

yes, I think this works, GT base Goku = Z SS3 although it could work, sounds crazy to gain in 5 years what he couldn't in decades, and also to lowball it a little because not even Goku becoming a child lowballs this show.

• Base GT Trunks/Goten=5×Z Base Goku or 10% Base GT Goku

Here I'm not so sure, actually not at all. I take everything before Rilldo like a confusing filler that makes no sense but is there to keep the plot going and is quite boring. Trunks and Goten retired so they should be weaker than what they showed in EoZ, during the whole run they never prove to be anything worthy, they even take the weaker guys from hell. Actually Trunks lasts a second against A-17(years before the notion that he could improve and IIRC the tweaked one was the one that was built in hell). I'll place them with the rest of the fodder. Same goes for Gohan, GTPF says he kept training, even though they kept the same characterization of him from when he was a retired fighter at EoZ (and early DBS) and a scholar, but he lost the ultimate form and his SS is weaker than Base Goku. If we highball Goku's base, then Gohan's training got him weaker than his father's Z SS3. Additional material contradict the show, it's crazy how little thought was put into this kind of thing.

• Uub (early GT)=SSJ Z Goku

Yes, I'm with you here, nothing implies he reached his true potential at the beginning, actually he says he has to keep training so apparently still had room for improvement.

• Sigma Force members=SSJ Z Goku (Natt being the only one slightly weaker)

• Super Mega Cannon Sigma=SSJ3 Z Goku

• Base Rilldo=SSJ3 Z Goku

About Rilldo, Goku either meant Fat Buu the one they all know and care about (he was talking to Trunks and Pan who grew up with Buu in his grampa's house) or the final boss Kid Buu who Trunks knows about, he contributed to the genki dama and can understand the comparison. The fused Buus aren't really Buu, their power comes from the absorbees, it should've been clarified if that was the case. Goku never refers to Buu as Majin Buu either. Low ball: fat boo, high ball: kid buu. He shows, later on, that he is stronger than Gohan but weaker than Majuub.

• Uub (Baby Saga)=Kid Buu/SSJ3 Z Goku

It makes sense, a year of hard training could work for him, maybe stronger, I think it would work better if he was much stronger.

• Hyper Mega Rilldo=2× SSJ3 Z Goku

• Metal Rilldo=4× SSJ3 Z Goku/Buutenks

Yes, I can agree, if he started as Kid Buu. If he started as Fat Buu then maybe he caps at Z Ultimate Gohan.

• Majuub=Super Buu (early on), Enraged Buuhan (after adapting and growing in power)

I'm nice with Majuub, so maybe he is Super Buu level on his own. Super Buu absorbed SS3 Gotenks who was stronger than Fat Buu, so Majuub should be even lower than Buutenks, but for the sake of GT's weird power level, maybe it was a stronger form of fusion than Buu's absorption, and also the plot requires so, thus I'll say the fusion makes him stronger than Buutenks and grows even stronger from there. Maybe we could blame it on him having god ki. Enough to one-shot Base Rildo and save Gohan.

• Base Baby Vegeta=8×Base GT Goku

8x Base GT Goku would be Goku KKx8... I think you meant 8x SS GT Goku, what would be his SS3.

• Base Vegito=SSJ3 Z Goku

• Super Vegito=SSJ3 GT Goku

• Super Saiyan Baby Vegeta=Super Vegito(is stronger than Super Vegito but not by a great margin)

Yes, I think that's fair, but 8x seems like an important margin to me. According to Goku, Baby was stronger than Buuhan before achieving his final form, so his final form should surpass Super Vegito. When they face each other again, Baby turns Golden Ape and SS4 Goku matches that, SS4 being 10x Super Vegito sounds ok to me.

May Zamasu's Blades of Judgement be brought down on me by the other power scalers

If VB is 8x stronger, (i'd take it down a notch though, it seems too big of a gap) that would make SS4 Goku 18x stronger than his SS3 in order to close the gap with Baby, let Baby go ape with the 10x boost and have an even final bout.

I read here a nice theory about Vegeta Baby, regarding his power ups and how they not necessarily have the SS multiplier because of him not being a saiyan and not getting the full power(he was the reason Vegeta didn't turn SS4), this way his power ups would stay within each other and doesn't get 100sx stronger in a matter of 5 minutes.

[Grand Marshal 1]

About Z: Could Base Vegito have used some form of kaioken against Buuhan in order to have the upper hand without being, already in base, stronger than him?

Yes but it would be foolish.

Why be 20 times stronger with strain if you can be 50 times without any strain?

But if Base Vegito is the result of the strongest form of the fusees, meaning he equals SS3 Goku, he wouldn't really need such a high kaioken.
In your list, Base Vegito is below SS3 Goku which could also work, and Buuhan like 4 times stronger than Base Vegito, right? so even a lower kaioken could do the job, 5x would be enough to kick ass without a notorious strain. Why? I don't know, I was just trying to explain how could he take on Buuhan in base and reconciliate manga and anime, which might be impossible.

I might have gone a little wild. But yeah the 8 times difference is perhaps a good one compared to Goku. I hope that with this scale I cleared some things up. Let me summarize.

(I compare GT with Buu saga characters)

• Base GT Goku=SSJ Z Goku

yes, I think this works, GT base Goku = Z SS3 although it could work, sounds crazy to gain in 5 years what he couldn't in decades, and also to lowball it a little because not even Goku becoming a child lowballs this show.

• Base GT Trunks/Goten=5×Z Base Goku or 10% Base GT Goku

Here I'm not so sure, actually not at all. I take everything before Rilldo like a confusing filler that makes no sense but is there to keep the plot going and is quite boring. Trunks and Goten retired so they should be weaker than what they showed in EoZ, during the whole run they never prove to be anything worthy, they even take the weaker guys from hell. Actually Trunks lasts a second against A-17(years before the notion that he could improve and IIRC the tweaked one was the one that was built in hell). I'll place them with the rest of the fodder. Same goes for Gohan, GTPF says he kept training, even though they kept the same characterization of him from when he was a retired fighter at EoZ (and early DBS) and a scholar, but he lost the ultimate form and his SS is weaker than Base Goku. If we highball Goku's base, then Gohan's training got him weaker than his father's Z SS3. Additional material contradict the show, it's crazy how little thought was put into this kind of thing.

• Uub (early GT)=SSJ Z Goku

Yes, I'm with you here, nothing implies he reached his true potential at the beginning, actually he says he has to keep training so apparently still had room for improvement.

• Sigma Force members=SSJ Z Goku (Natt being the only one slightly weaker)

• Super Mega Cannon Sigma=SSJ3 Z Goku

• Base Rilldo=SSJ3 Z Goku

About Rilldo, Goku either meant Fat Buu the one they all know and care about (he was talking to Trunks and Pan who grew up with Buu in his grampa's house) or the final boss Kid Buu who Trunks knows about, he contributed to the genki dama and can understand the comparison. The fused Buus aren't really Buu, their power comes from the absorbees, it should've been clarified if that was the case. Goku never refers to Buu as Majin Buu either. Low ball: fat boo, high ball: kid buu. He shows, later on, that he is stronger than Gohan but weaker than Majuub.

• Uub (Baby Saga)=Kid Buu/SSJ3 Z Goku

It makes sense, a year of hard training could work for him, maybe stronger, I think it would work better if he was much stronger.

• Hyper Mega Rilldo=2× SSJ3 Z Goku

• Metal Rilldo=4× SSJ3 Z Goku/Buutenks

Yes, I can agree, if he started as Kid Buu. If he started as Fat Buu then maybe he caps at Z Ultimate Gohan.

• Majuub=Super Buu (early on), Enraged Buuhan (after adapting and growing in power)

I'm nice with Majuub, so maybe he is Super Buu level on his own. Super Buu absorbed SS3 Gotenks who was stronger than Fat Buu, so Majuub should be even lower than Buutenks, but for the sake of GT's weird power level, maybe it was a stronger form of fusion than Buu's absorption, and also the plot requires so, thus I'll say the fusion makes him stronger than Buutenks and grows even stronger from there. Maybe we could blame it on him having god ki. Enough to one-shot Base Rildo and save Gohan.

• Base Baby Vegeta=8×Base GT Goku

8x Base GT Goku would be Goku KKx8... I think you meant 8x SS GT Goku, what would be his SS3.

• Base Vegito=SSJ3 Z Goku

• Super Vegito=SSJ3 GT Goku

• Super Saiyan Baby Vegeta=Super Vegito(is stronger than Super Vegito but not by a great margin)

Yes, I think that's fair, but 8x seems like an important margin to me. According to Goku, Baby was stronger than Buuhan before achieving his final form, so his final form should surpass Super Vegito. When they face each other again, Baby turns Golden Ape and SS4 Goku matches that, SS4 being 10x Super Vegito sounds ok to me.

May Zamasu's Blades of Judgement be brought down on me by the other power scalers

If VB is 8x stronger, (i'd take it down a notch though, it seems too big of a gap) that would make SS4 Goku 18x stronger than his SS3 in order to close the gap with Baby, let Baby go ape with the 10x boost and have an even final bout.

I read here a nice theory about Vegeta Baby, regarding his power ups and how they not necessarily have the SS multiplier because of him not being a saiyan and not getting the full power(he was the reason Vegeta didn't turn SS4), this way his power ups would stay within each other and doesn't get 100sx stronger in a matter of 5 minutes.

Yup, I think I can agree. It seems like a big gap, but to be honest, I have even tried to make this work out with a 2× difference. I refer to the power difference between Baby Vegeta and Goku.

As for Trunks and Goten I was going easy on them. Their powers don't really matter so they were there just for the plot.

Rilldo is perhaps Fat Buu level. Not Good Buu, although both could work out. I mean Kid Buu was pretty much slightly weaker than Fat Buu and Super Buu, only more unpredictable, so they are all at the same realm of power. Low SSJ3 to High SSJ3.

Uub is a special case but it can be easily handled. Majuub can be confusing but I think we pretty much determined his power level. If he is at Buuhan level at max, meaning low SSJ Vegito level or SSJ Baby Vegeta, then it would make sense for "SSJ3" Baby Vegeta to use some of his full power to counter him, just to overwhelm him. Also, God Ki

Generally speaking, I think that GT isn't meant to be overwhelmingly superior to the ending saga of Z, when it comes to power. I think that Buu saga characters should be able to take on and even defeat GT threats.

Question: if Super 17 is the result of Android 17 and Hell Fighter 17 merging, would he be equal with their Potara fusion? Given S17's great power in comparison.

I might try and go beyond the Baby Saga with these calcs and finish with GT.

To end the GT Baby saga scale:

• Super Baby Vegeta=2×Super Vegito (still Baby is stronger)

• Super Baby Vegeta 2=8×Super Vegito

Of course I won't tie in the SSJ4 form as that requires thinking of it's own.

I am interested in that idea though. Baby Vegeta having lower multipliers for his forms which resulted in Vegeta not going SSJ4.

[Koitsukai]

Question: if Super 17 is the result of Android 17 and Hell Fighter 17 merging, would he be equal with their Potara fusion? Given S17's great power in comparison.

I might try and go beyond the Baby Saga with these calcs and finish with GT.

To end the GT Baby saga scale:

• Super Baby Vegeta=2×Super Vegito (still Baby is stronger)

• Super Baby Vegeta 2=8×Super Vegito

Of course I won't tie in the SSJ4 form as that requires thinking of it's own.

I am interested in that idea though. Baby Vegeta having lower multipliers for his forms which resulted in Vegeta not going SSJ4.

Well, let's see, Android 17 was equal to Base Vegeta, and Super 17 was overwhelmingly stronger than SS2 Vegeta(I assume it was SS2, no reason for him to hold back any power) and several other SS, so Vegeta is 100x stronger and is still outclassed and so are the rest, if Super 17 was twice as strong as them, then he might be 200x stronger than he was as Android 17. Assuming both 17 were equals. He is stronger than SS Goku too, so depending on how much stronger than SS2 Vegeta SS Goku was, Super 17 could be even +300x stronger thanks to the merger. I don't remember if he absorbed ki blasts from Vegeta and the rest, so maybe I went too far.


Now, for the Potara fusion, I'll borrow the numbres from ZombieVito's power list:

Buu Arc
Base Son Goku: 75,000,000
Base Vegetto: 22,500,000,000

Potara fusion made Goku(as Vegito) 300x stronger, now, this depends on how one ranks them, give or take a million. If Base Vegito is equal to SS3 Goku, then is 400x. If Base Vegito is stronger than SS3 Goku then...

So, Potara at least 300x, 400x, in Kefla it was higher so it maybe be also higher for the androids, or quite lower. The android merger is at least 200x, maybe 300x.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Question: if Super 17 is the result of Android 17 and Hell Fighter 17 merging, would he be equal with their Potara fusion? Given S17's great power in comparison.

I might try and go beyond the Baby Saga with these calcs and finish with GT.

To end the GT Baby saga scale:

• Super Baby Vegeta=2×Super Vegito (still Baby is stronger)

• Super Baby Vegeta 2=8×Super Vegito

Of course I won't tie in the SSJ4 form as that requires thinking of it's own.

I am interested in that idea though. Baby Vegeta having lower multipliers for his forms which resulted in Vegeta not going SSJ4.

Well, let's see, Android 17 was equal to Base Vegeta, and Super 17 was overwhelmingly stronger than SS2 Vegeta(I assume it was SS2, no reason for him to hold back any power) and several other SS, so Vegeta is 100x stronger and is still outclassed and so are the rest, if Super 17 was twice as strong as them, then he might be 200x stronger than he was as Android 17. Assuming both 17 were equals. He is stronger than SS Goku too, so depending on how much stronger than SS2 Vegeta SS Goku was, Super 17 could be even +300x stronger thanks to the merger. I don't remember if he absorbed ki blasts from Vegeta and the rest, so maybe I went too far.


Now, for the Potara fusion, I'll borrow the numbres from ZombieVito's power list:

Buu Arc
Base Son Goku: 75,000,000
Base Vegetto: 22,500,000,000

Potara fusion made Goku(as Vegito) 300x stronger, now, this depends on how one ranks them, give or take a million. If Base Vegito is equal to SS3 Goku, then is 400x. If Base Vegito is stronger than SS3 Goku then...

So, Potara at least 300x, 400x, in Kefla it was higher so it maybe be also higher for the androids, or quite lower. The android merger is at least 200x, maybe 300x.

Yeah, makes sense.

Also, I wanted to clarify that Base Baby Vegeta is 8×GT Base Goku but also 8×SSJ Buu saga Z Goku. That's what you thought of I assume. Or Base Baby Vegeta=SSJ3 Buu saga Z Goku

[ZombieVito]

Question: if Super 17 is the result of Android 17 and Hell Fighter 17 merging, would he be equal with their Potara fusion? Given S17's great power in comparison.

I might try and go beyond the Baby Saga with these calcs and finish with GT.

To end the GT Baby saga scale:

• Super Baby Vegeta=2×Super Vegito (still Baby is stronger)

• Super Baby Vegeta 2=8×Super Vegito

Of course I won't tie in the SSJ4 form as that requires thinking of it's own.

I am interested in that idea though. Baby Vegeta having lower multipliers for his forms which resulted in Vegeta not going SSJ4.

Well, let's see, Android 17 was equal to Base Vegeta, and Super 17 was overwhelmingly stronger than SS2 Vegeta(I assume it was SS2, no reason for him to hold back any power) and several other SS, so Vegeta is 100x stronger and is still outclassed and so are the rest, if Super 17 was twice as strong as them, then he might be 200x stronger than he was as Android 17. Assuming both 17 were equals. He is stronger than SS Goku too, so depending on how much stronger than SS2 Vegeta SS Goku was, Super 17 could be even +300x stronger thanks to the merger. I don't remember if he absorbed ki blasts from Vegeta and the rest, so maybe I went too far.


Now, for the Potara fusion, I'll borrow the numbres from ZombieVito's power list:

Buu Arc
Base Son Goku: 75,000,000
Base Vegetto: 22,500,000,000

Potara fusion made Goku(as Vegito) 300x stronger, now, this depends on how one ranks them, give or take a million. If Base Vegito is equal to SS3 Goku, then is 400x. If Base Vegito is stronger than SS3 Goku then...

So, Potara at least 300x, 400x, in Kefla it was higher so it maybe be also higher for the androids, or quite lower. The android merger is at least 200x, maybe 300x.

Those numbers for Vegetto are not updated at all haha.

I fully believe now that base Vegetto in the Boo arc surpasses SS3 Goku because of Daizenshuu.

Now if only we could get a confirmation where base Vegetto and Gogeta stand in Super.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Question: if Super 17 is the result of Android 17 and Hell Fighter 17 merging, would he be equal with their Potara fusion? Given S17's great power in comparison.

I might try and go beyond the Baby Saga with these calcs and finish with GT.

To end the GT Baby saga scale:

• Super Baby Vegeta=2×Super Vegito (still Baby is stronger)

• Super Baby Vegeta 2=8×Super Vegito

Of course I won't tie in the SSJ4 form as that requires thinking of it's own.

I am interested in that idea though. Baby Vegeta having lower multipliers for his forms which resulted in Vegeta not going SSJ4.

Well, let's see, Android 17 was equal to Base Vegeta, and Super 17 was overwhelmingly stronger than SS2 Vegeta(I assume it was SS2, no reason for him to hold back any power) and several other SS, so Vegeta is 100x stronger and is still outclassed and so are the rest, if Super 17 was twice as strong as them, then he might be 200x stronger than he was as Android 17. Assuming both 17 were equals. He is stronger than SS Goku too, so depending on how much stronger than SS2 Vegeta SS Goku was, Super 17 could be even +300x stronger thanks to the merger. I don't remember if he absorbed ki blasts from Vegeta and the rest, so maybe I went too far.


Now, for the Potara fusion, I'll borrow the numbres from ZombieVito's power list:

Buu Arc
Base Son Goku: 75,000,000
Base Vegetto: 22,500,000,000

Potara fusion made Goku(as Vegito) 300x stronger, now, this depends on how one ranks them, give or take a million. If Base Vegito is equal to SS3 Goku, then is 400x. If Base Vegito is stronger than SS3 Goku then...

So, Potara at least 300x, 400x, in Kefla it was higher so it maybe be also higher for the androids, or quite lower. The android merger is at least 200x, maybe 300x.

Those numbers for Vegetto are not updated at all haha.

I fully believe now that base Vegetto in the Boo arc surpasses SS3 Goku because of Daizenshuu.

Now if only we could get a confirmation where base Vegetto and Gogeta stand in Super.

You think that it is possible for Base Vegito to be superior even to a SSJ4?

I mean, they would mean a Z SSJ4. And would it truly be Base Vegito, or Super Vegito who we talk about? I think the former given how he was leagues superior to SSJ3 Goku.

[ZombieVito]

Well, let's see, Android 17 was equal to Base Vegeta, and Super 17 was overwhelmingly stronger than SS2 Vegeta(I assume it was SS2, no reason for him to hold back any power) and several other SS, so Vegeta is 100x stronger and is still outclassed and so are the rest, if Super 17 was twice as strong as them, then he might be 200x stronger than he was as Android 17. Assuming both 17 were equals. He is stronger than SS Goku too, so depending on how much stronger than SS2 Vegeta SS Goku was, Super 17 could be even +300x stronger thanks to the merger. I don't remember if he absorbed ki blasts from Vegeta and the rest, so maybe I went too far.


Now, for the Potara fusion, I'll borrow the numbres from ZombieVito's power list:

Buu Arc
Base Son Goku: 75,000,000
Base Vegetto: 22,500,000,000

Potara fusion made Goku(as Vegito) 300x stronger, now, this depends on how one ranks them, give or take a million. If Base Vegito is equal to SS3 Goku, then is 400x. If Base Vegito is stronger than SS3 Goku then...

So, Potara at least 300x, 400x, in Kefla it was higher so it maybe be also higher for the androids, or quite lower. The android merger is at least 200x, maybe 300x.

Those numbers for Vegetto are not updated at all haha.

I fully believe now that base Vegetto in the Boo arc surpasses SS3 Goku because of Daizenshuu.

Now if only we could get a confirmation where base Vegetto and Gogeta stand in Super.

You think that it is possible for Base Vegito to be superior even to a SSJ4?

I mean, they would mean a Z SSJ4. And would it truly be Base Vegito, or Super Vegito who we talk about? I think the former given how he was leagues superior to SSJ3 Goku.

Sorry but I couldn't care less about SS4 to even know that.

[Noitsnothim]

How strong would a SSBE w/Kaioken x20 Gogeta or Vegito be ?

[Hugo Boss]

How strong would a SSBE w/Kaioken x20 Gogeta or Vegito be ?

If he manages to last for a second, he would probably wipe the floor with anyone, except the King of All.

[Koitsukai]

How strong would a SSBE w/Kaioken x20 Gogeta or Vegito be ?

He should be strong enough to kill Beerus while behaving like a jackass.

[Gogeta_Blue]

How strong would a SSBE w/Kaioken x20 Gogeta or Vegito be ?

Effortlessly stomps the Hakaishin. Angels could go either way as they're still a mystery. I have doubts about reaching the Grand Priest.

[Thani]

I saw a little animation from Hyourinjutsu (or something like that) where Goku and Vegeta were forced to fuse to face Jiren in the ToP. That Gogeta forced Jiren to go topless, and he was only defeated after Gogeta went SSBE and KKx20, and even then they barely won - they had the clear advantage in power, but Jiren relentless determination allowed him to stay in the arena for a long time. Obviously non canon, mind you, but...

Long story short? I think that at these levels of power, that increase wouldn't be as amazing as it normally would... I think? Sure, definitely enough to pummel Beerus and other Gods of Destruction, but not as allmighty as it otherwise appears.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Yeah, because, truth be told, say that Base Cumber is in the league of Blue fusions. So they go Evolved (lowball ×20 as it was originally compared to the KK) and then KK×20 on top. Well, I am telling you that SSJ3 Cumber would be equal. And he would probably win if he went SSJ3 Full Power (with Golden Great Ape the gap isn't that large).

So yeah, I don't see this as a massive boost. Of course it would enough for those low-multiversal feats.

Unpopular opinion

Given how I watched most of GT again for the purpose of power scaling, I got reminded of something that I had seemingly forgot. GT lacks feats. No statements. Feats. Super does as well, but it has had more instance where the statement is followed by a feat.

I am telling you that the greatest feat that I saw up until the beginning of the Shadow Dragons saga was perhaps Luud's level 3 eye laser attack that caused something like an atomic explosion, which by itself was a nuclear-tier attack, hardly country-level. Strongest Form 2 Baby's Revenge Death Balk was impressive as it affected the time-space continuum (nothing new with this tbh) with his next "impressive" feat being that he could destroy a planet with a fully powered Galick Gun while a Golden Great Ape.... Doesn't really add to that GT logic of immense superiority to Z. I am not fanboying here. And from the Shadow Dragons themselves, I can only see Syn, later Omega having beyond-planetary capabilities. Yeah.... Even Nappa did the fingers thing....

Do you agree that this is the case or not? I wish to know your opinions.

[wolflonnie]

Yeah, because, truth be told, say that Base Cumber is in the league of Blue fusions. So they go Evolved (lowball ×20 as it was originally compared to the KK) and then KK×20 on top. Well, I am telling you that SSJ3 Cumber would be equal. And he would probably win if he went SSJ3 Full Power (with Golden Great Ape the gap isn't that large).

So yeah, I don't see this as a massive boost. Of course it would enough for those low-multiversal feats.

Unpopular opinion

Given how I watched most of GT again for the purpose of power scaling, I got reminded of something that I had seemingly forgot. GT lacks feats. No statements. Feats. Super does as well, but it has had more instance where the statement is followed by a feat.

I am telling you that the greatest feat that I saw up until the beginning of the Shadow Dragons saga was perhaps Luud's level 3 eye laser attack that caused something like an atomic explosion, which by itself was a nuclear-tier attack, hardly country-level. Strongest Form 2 Baby's Revenge Death Balk was impressive as it affected the time-space continuum (nothing new with this tbh) with his next "impressive" feat being that he could destroy a planet with a fully powered Galick Gun while a Golden Great Ape.... Doesn't really add to that GT logic of immense superiority to Z. I am not fanboying here. And from the Shadow Dragons themselves, I can only see Syn, later Omega having beyond-planetary capabilities. Yeah.... Even Nappa did the fingers thing....

Do you agree that this is the case or not? I wish to know your opinions.

Yeah, I remember GT Goku being impressed at Syn destroying a city or something like that

[SupremeKai25]

And from the Shadow Dragons themselves, I can only see Syn, later Omega having beyond-planetary capabilities. Yeah.... Even Nappa did the fingers thing....

Yeah, Omega was the only one in GT who pretty much had universal capabilities with his evil energy thing that was spreading throughout the universe. That's the most impressive feat I have seen a GT character character perform, and even that pales in comparison to what Infinite Zamasu could do (he basically had the same power but at a multiversal level). I'm not actually sure why there are some people who think that GT characters are stronger than Super characters, but whatever.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Yeah, I remember GT Goku being impressed at Syn destroying a city or something like that

Which, frankly, is the exact same thing Nappa did when he was resurrected and fought with Vegeta one arc before. I guess that if Goku saw Nappa doing it he would be like "OH MY GOD, I am not sure if I can handle this guy even if I fuse with Vegeta!" lol

Of course it also has to do with how you destroy the city lmao. Omega just did it better, or Vegeta was the foolish one to not be impressed. It kinda doesn't make sense for everyone from Hell to have gained a power-up but Freeza and Cell. I mean, Nappa's feat wasn't exactly leagues above his Saiyan Saga powers...

It is time for both Super and GT to be somewhat low balled imo.

And from the Shadow Dragons themselves, I can only see Syn, later Omega having beyond-planetary capabilities. Yeah.... Even Nappa did the fingers thing....

Yeah, Omega was the only one in GT who pretty much had universal capabilities with his evil energy thing that was spreading throughout the universe. That's the most impressive feat I have seen a GT character character perform, and even that pales in comparison to what Infinite Zamasu could do (he basically had the same power but at a multiversal level). I'm not actually sure why there are some people who think that GT characters are stronger than Super characters, but whatever.

Indeed. And it wasn't even a direct low-universal threat as it required time to be performed. Of course, I am not nerfing him. I acknowledge him as an extremely powerful opponent, perhaps of the scale of a Super Saiyan God.

Now, this was before was treated as a useless form. From a storytelling perspective he should be an enemy to rival someone like KK×20 Blue Goku, despite not having the power.

Do you understand me? I mean, how the plot can demand something from the villain to elevate him to a new level of power. That's how Omega's threat would be probably viewed in Super, given that he had the respective power. Even Zamasu went through that phase.

[Noitsnothim]

Here's something I been wondering...why is it so hard for people to accept that Jiren Might stronger than Beerus? the anime & manga have both proved this theory with a bunch of evidence and yet people deny that he isn't because Beerus hasn't gone 100 (Max Power) But that wouldn't matter considering in the manga Beerus when he fights PSSGSS (Perfected Super Saiyan Blue) Vegeta he states that he could be a potential God Of Destruction in another universe which can also serve as evidence that both him and Goku have reached or are barely scratching the surface of lower tier G.O.D (Like Sidra, Mule, Rumosh, Champa,Iwan quitela Arak) and Jiren on the other hand has surpassed Vermoud (Belmod whatever) and I'm pretty sure he's top tier along with the likes of (Helles, Liqueur Giin,Beerus) In the tournament of Power both Goku & Vegeta Broke their limits and surpassed their current states (Power and strength wise) Beerus during this time seems to know some principles of UI but wasn't able to fully Utilize the actual technique unlike Goku who was able to and completed it for a second to match Full Power Jiren (Manga) but even then Jiren was able to adapt to UI Goku's feats (Possibly even surpassed em) even when he went Super Full Power (Think he's the first character in DB history to do that) He took A gammaburst Kamehameha head-on with minimal damage

in the brand new film 'Broly' Goku states that Broly might be stronger than Beerus meaning Broly in his FPSS form is at Beerus' 70% at best
Jiren in his base should be at Beerus' 50% since he was able to stop SSG Goku with one finger (Anime) and swat away SSB Goku like a fly (Anime & Manga)

Sorry I'm all over the place and tried articulating myself better

[Miracles]

^Because Jiren being stronger than Beerus, simply is headcanon. Jiren can't be stronger than Beerus when it was never stated, secondly, Toriyama's next villains are stronger than the last, therefore, Goku not knowing if Broly is stronger than Beerus, who is stronger than Jiren, can't be the weaker of the two. It makes no sense because it destroys Toriyama's strength escalation narrative.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

^Because Jiren being stronger than Beerus, simply is headcanon. Jiren can't be stronger than Beerus when it was never stated, secondly, Toriyama's next villains are stronger than the last, therefore, Goku not knowing if Broly is stronger than Beerus, who is stronger than Jiren, can't be the weaker of the two. It makes no sense because it destroys Toriyama's strength escalation narrative.

But is this narrative always in effect? It wasn't when Beerus was made to be this supremely powerful being from the jump from BoG to RoF, and Hit wasn't actually stronger than Golden Freeza considering he was overall inferior to SSB, even if that SSB was stronger than before.

Besides that, there's a strong case to be made from implications and statements that Jiren has the potential to be stronger than Beerus by proxy of how Beerus has been compared himself to other Gods of Destruction.

At the very least, I believe that Ultra Instinct is meant to be cleanly above Beerus and thus Jiren with his hidden power would logically be above this, since it was Jiren's regular full-power that was in contention for potentially being above Beerus. Broly doesn't have this since he only gets the same kind of comparison as regular full-power Jiren. You could say he'd be stronger than that, and I'd believe it, but definitely not Hidden Power Jiren and Ultra Instinct Goku.

[Koitsukai]

^Because Jiren being stronger than Beerus, simply is headcanon. Jiren can't be stronger than Beerus when it was never stated, secondly, Toriyama's next villains are stronger than the last, therefore, Goku not knowing if Broly is stronger than Beerus, who is stronger than Jiren, can't be the weaker of the two. It makes no sense because it destroys Toriyama's strength escalation narrative.

But Broly was never stated to be stronger than Jiren, so your own logic contradicts your statement.