Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheSaiyanGod]

there are direct comparisons between SSG and SSB facing the same enemies, which have totally different levels than what was shown in GT and that would be enough to put both forms above SSJ4

What are you talking about?

Simply put, SSG has made much bigger feats and has faced enemies that also rank far above any GT enemy (in terms of capacity and what they can do). And since SSB has already been shown to be much stronger than God, there is no need for it to nearly destroy the universe in a fight so that this form is also placed above SSJ4 (the same SSG that made the universe tremble in exchange of punches performed ridiculously against Jiren compared to SSB, obviously).

And if I'm not mistaken, in XV2 there is a line of Gotenks that says SSG was a transformation above SSJ4. Generally, when SSJ4 and SSB are placed at the same level it is in DBH (with more powerful versions of GT Goku)

I don’t put much stock on those feats from Battle of Gods Arc. SSBlue+ level clashes, which are supposed to be far above that level, can’t create the same kind of colateral damage in the universe, so I think the idea that they can do that was totally discarded after that point. SSGod is merely stronger than Super Vegetto from Boo Arc, that’s what I think.

Yes, there are no more clashes that make the universe tremble, but there are direct comparisons between SSG and SSB facing the same enemies, which have totally different levels than what was shown in GT and that would be enough to put both forms above SSJ4

Golden Freeza is stronger than base Toppo though.

Well, Golden Freeza never faced base Toppo in a direct fight, just took advantage that he was facing 17, so I wouldn't say he's stronger.

Base Toppo was on par with Blue Vegeta who is weaker than Freeza.

It's not a big difference but it's there.

There is nothing to indicate that Golden Freeza> SSB Vegeta.

Actually, SSB Vegeta overwhelmed Toppo more easily than SSB Goku. He did it while ignoring him almost completely and focusing only on the fight between Goku and Kefla. And we know that Pre ToP SSB Goku = Golden Freeza.

[ZombieVito]

there are direct comparisons between SSG and SSB facing the same enemies, which have totally different levels than what was shown in GT and that would be enough to put both forms above SSJ4

What are you talking about?

Simply put, SSG has made much bigger feats and has faced enemies that also rank far above any GT enemy (in terms of capacity and what they can do). And since SSB has already been shown to be much stronger than God, there is no need for it to nearly destroy the universe in a fight so that this form is also placed above SSJ4 (the same SSG that made the universe tremble in exchange of punches performed ridiculously against Jiren compared to SSB, obviously).

And if I'm not mistaken, in XV2 there is a line of Gotenks that says SSG was a transformation above SSJ4. Generally, when SSJ4 and SSB are placed at the same level it is in DBH (with more powerful versions of GT Goku)

Yes, there are no more clashes that make the universe tremble, but there are direct comparisons between SSG and SSB facing the same enemies, which have totally different levels than what was shown in GT and that would be enough to put both forms above SSJ4



Well, Golden Freeza never faced base Toppo in a direct fight, just took advantage that he was facing 17, so I wouldn't say he's stronger.

Base Toppo was on par with Blue Vegeta who is weaker than Freeza.

It's not a big difference but it's there.

There is nothing to indicate that Golden Freeza> SSB Vegeta.

Actually, SSB Vegeta overwhelmed Toppo more easily than SSB Goku. He did it while ignoring him almost completely and focusing only on the fight between Goku and Kefla. And we know that Pre ToP SSB Goku = Golden Freeza.

Blue Goku and Golden Freeza are tied for #1 spot on the team as stated by Toei. That makes Blue Vegeta weaker than them.

[Hugo Boss]

Simply put, SSG has made much bigger feats and has faced enemies that also rank far above any GT enemy (in terms of capacity and what they can do). And since SSB has already been shown to be much stronger than God, there is no need for it to nearly destroy the universe in a fight so that this form is also placed above SSJ4 (the same SSG that made the universe tremble in exchange of punches performed ridiculously against Jiren compared to SSB, obviously).

And if I'm not mistaken, in XV2 there is a line of Gotenks that says SSG was a transformation above SSJ4. Generally, when SSJ4 and SSB are placed at the same level it is in DBH (with more powerful versions of GT Goku)

You are just repeating the same “SSGod punchs can shake the universe and GT characters can’t” argument. SSBlue+ clashes (like Goku vs. Copy-Vegeta, Goku vs. Gohan, Goku vs. Freeza, Vegetto vs. Zamas, Goku vs. Jiren) don’t have that kind of effect, so this is only an inconsistent feat. If it mattered for the story, Dragon Ball characters would blow up the planet anytime they fought, so the fact that they choose to make SSGod look that cool shouldn’t matter in any way for these comparisons. I honestly thought you were talking about someone Goku has fought both in GT and Super.

[Potara_Vegetto]

Simply put, SSG has made much bigger feats and has faced enemies that also rank far above any GT enemy (in terms of capacity and what they can do). And since SSB has already been shown to be much stronger than God, there is no need for it to nearly destroy the universe in a fight so that this form is also placed above SSJ4 (the same SSG that made the universe tremble in exchange of punches performed ridiculously against Jiren compared to SSB, obviously).

And if I'm not mistaken, in XV2 there is a line of Gotenks that says SSG was a transformation above SSJ4. Generally, when SSJ4 and SSB are placed at the same level it is in DBH (with more powerful versions of GT Goku)

You are just repeating the same “SSGod punchs can shake the universe and GT characters can’t” argument. SSBlue+ clashes (like Goku vs. Copy-Vegeta, Goku vs. Gohan, Goku vs. Freeza, Vegetto vs. Zamas, Goku vs. Jiren) don’t have that kind of effect, so this is only an inconsistent feat. If it mattered for the story, Dragon Ball characters would blow up the planet anytime they fought, so the fact that they choose to make SSGod look that cool shouldn’t matter in any way for these comparisons. I honestly thought you were talking about someone Goku has fought both in GT and Super.

If they do that, the anime will simply end and everyone will die. Not even comics with even more cosmic influence can maintain this physical consistency.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Blue Goku and Golden Freeza are tied for #1 spot on the team as stated by Toei. That makes Blue Vegeta weaker than them.

Animedia does not put Goku and Freeza in the first place. It is specifically said that only Goku is the strongest, and that Freeza is tied with him. This implies (at least for me) that the part of '' Freeza = Goku '' refers only to the SSB and Golden forms, something that was said by Beerus as well (which would make sense since Kaioken would put Goku above anyway and justify the stronger position as said before).

And Toppo literally says that Vegeta is the second fiddle in the anime. And the statements made on the show have more value than any promotional material (which has already been shown to be inconsistent in some cases), especially if one contradicts the other.

You are just repeating the same “SSGod punchs can shake the universe and GT characters can’t” argument. SSBlue+ clashes (like Goku vs. Copy-Vegeta, Goku vs. Gohan, Goku vs. Freeza, Vegetto vs. Zamas, Goku vs. Jiren) don’t have that kind of effect, so this is only an inconsistent feat. If it mattered for the story, Dragon Ball characters would blow up the planet anytime they fought, so the fact that they choose to make SSGod look that cool shouldn’t matter in any way for these comparisons. I honestly thought you were talking about someone Goku has fought both in GT and Super.

In the Saiyan arc, Vegeta with 18k of power level could shake the whole earth just by raising his Ki. And a few arcs later we have SSJ level characters exchanging punches and nothing going on. Does that invalidate what happened before? No. Characters with the power level of old Vegeta already had the ability to shake the earth just by raising the Ki. And just remembering that this shaking the universe thing appeared in the 3 media (manga, anime and movie)

SSB doesn't have to almost destroy the universe to have more feats than SSG, simply because it has been shown to be a much stronger form.
And anyway I'm not just talking about feats or characters with universal abilities, I'm also considering the level of DBS enemies, which turned out to be much stronger than in GT.

[Miracles]

The second fiddle statement would put Vegeta below Freeza too. Since Freeza is equal to the one ahead of Vegeta.

[ZombieVito]

The second fiddle statement would put Vegeta below Freeza too. Since Freeza is equal to the one ahead of Vegeta.

Beat me to it haha.

At the end of the day you can believe what you want but I'll always go with official information.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

All 3 of them are pretty much equal in their respective forms anyways.

Base/SS Goku and Vegeta are even with Final Form Freeza, and SSB is equal to True Golden Freeza.

[Thani]

All 3 of them are pretty much equal in their respective forms anyways.

Base/SS Goku and Vegeta are even with Final Form Freeza, and SSB is equal to True Golden Freeza.

I agree. Toppo was mostly provoking Vegeta since he was the one who called him second fiddle first.

I mean, he can be weaker, I guess, but it's a negligible difference, imo.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I think that some people have a clouded perception of what feats try to show. Feats aren't something that can always be accounted as stadart for an individual. That's what they are. Feats. It isn't a common thing to do.

Or as a dictionary's definiton: a noteworthy or extraordinary act or achievement, usually displaying boldness, skill, etc

Which means that a feat doesn't always display the usual power of an individual. Feats are not meant to be constantly repeated.

This doesn't mean that SSJG is stronger than SSJB or that SSJG is much weaker than we think of. The universal capabilities that the form possess simply act as a guide as to where we should rank it in comparison to everything that has come before.

The Super Saiyan shook Namek, the Super Saiyan 2 was a power rivaling the solar system and Super Saiyan 3 stood up against a galactic threat. God follows this logic by saying "hey I am the universal level". Now, now, if Super Saiyan 4 is taken into account by the series creator, is unknown. However, BoG was created with no plans for the future. It was treated as the strongest form at the time.

Of course the narrative allowed for such feats. Blue wasn't a thing. Which is also why when Resurrection F was released there was a confusion as to which form was stronger. Super came later and gave us an answer. I doubt that even Toei knew at the time if Super Saiyan God was superior to Blue or not. Beerus' power was retconned of course.

My point.

Feat≠standart power

We, as fans, are obligated to clear up the narrative inconsistencies ourselves. We know that Blue wasn't a thing in the past, so although the universal feat of God still applies in power scaling, the form had to be nerfed or, as someone said above, the universe would have been destroyed in the fight with Freeza killing everyone, which isn't the best thing when you want to say a story.

To give off examples, Blue Vegeta from the ToP reached his peak with the Final Flash, a feat of his, but his overall increase in power didn't surpass it. He took on Jiren and was perhaps able to perform better than the initial Blue Evolution Vegeta.

[Hugo Boss]

In the Saiyan arc, Vegeta with 18k of power level could shake the whole earth just by raising his Ki. And a few arcs later we have SSJ level characters exchanging punches and nothing going on. Does that invalidate what happened before? No. Characters with the power level of old Vegeta already had the ability to shake the earth just by raising the Ki. And just remembering that this shaking the universe thing appeared in the 3 media (manga, anime and movie)

SSB doesn't have to almost destroy the universe to have more feats than SSG, simply because it has been shown to be a much stronger form.
And anyway I'm not just talking about feats or characters with universal abilities, I'm also considering the level of DBS enemies, which turned out to be much stronger than in GT.

That’s precisely why we shouldn’t be saying SSGod is definetely stronger than SS4. Just because one form doesn’t do more ridiculous feats than the other. If GT writers felt like, SS4 would do more overboard stuff than SSGod. Battle of Gods just raised the bar in this aspect. And what enemies are you talking about? I think Zamas and Jiren are stronger than Omega Shenron, but what about the others?

[Koitsukai]

We don't need to keep the feats going on every time for them to be considered real. Zeno's GodPad couldn't keep up with Dyspo's speed, but there were no complains when MUI Goku-Jiren happened, that doesn't mean Dyspo is faster than them. The feat to showcase Dyspo's speed already served it's purpose. Like Jiren shaking the world of void with his 20% or so. When he broke his limits he just lit stuff on fire when he should've at least throw the weaklings in the stands flying away to depths of the void. Even Beerus was feeling Jiren's waves from 109.

SS3 Gotenks opened up a portal just by shouting, Super Buu by getting upset. Broly never did that and he shouted all movie long while losing control just like Buuhan whose rage and lost of control ripped the fabric of space-time. Merged Zamasu's frustation did neither of those.

Vegito Blue and Merged Zamasu didn't do what SS Gogeta and SS Broly did: go to another dimension by the sheer power of their attacks. Actually stronger versions of them, SSB Gogeta and FP SS Broly, failed to do what they did just in SS. FPSS Broly and Blue Gogeta should've been travelling through dimensions every single time they came in contact with each other, how impossible to bear would've that been?
All of this doesn't nerf the characters involved, it just brings down a notch the full effect of the feat in order to make it watchable because it's a cartoon.

Since Yamcha vs Saibaimen we know how difficult it is to see them move but even Bulma can watches fights, and that doesn't retcon Piccolo teaching Gohan to not trust just his eyes.

[Rakurai]

And if I'm not mistaken, in XV2 there is a line of Gotenks that says SSG was a transformation above SSJ4. Generally, when SSJ4 and SSB are placed at the same level it is in DBH (with more powerful versions of GT Goku)

Source for line?

Because in DLC Pack # 6, we have RoF Goku & Vegeta going SS4 and Vegeta commenting that this is what it feels like to have the power of a 'god.' In addition, if Goku is your mentor/special partner, then you have your Goku partner go SSB and fighting with SS4 Goku, with no clear outcome of who's stronger. And note that this is comparing post-BoG versions of Goku, not the one from GT so the stronger base argument doesn't apply here.

Yes the Time Patrol members are in general stronger than the GT counterparts, however it required a SS Gogeta: Xeno to defeat GT Super Yi Xing Long (Omega Shenron). And since the Time Patrol are on the level of their Super counterparts, this SS Gogeta should be far stronger than a hypothetical SSB Goku: Xeno. Furthermore, SS4 GT Gogeta was able to defeat Dark Gogeta, whom was giving the entire Time Patrol trouble to the point where they needed Gohan: Xeno to go SS4. So even from a powerscale viewpoint, GT characters can still give the Time Patrol and therefore some DBS-level fighters a run for their money.

[TheSaiyanGod]

In the Saiyan arc, Vegeta with 18k of power level could shake the whole earth just by raising his Ki. And a few arcs later we have SSJ level characters exchanging punches and nothing going on. Does that invalidate what happened before? No. Characters with the power level of old Vegeta already had the ability to shake the earth just by raising the Ki. And just remembering that this shaking the universe thing appeared in the 3 media (manga, anime and movie)

SSB doesn't have to almost destroy the universe to have more feats than SSG, simply because it has been shown to be a much stronger form.
And anyway I'm not just talking about feats or characters with universal abilities, I'm also considering the level of DBS enemies, which turned out to be much stronger than in GT.

That’s precisely why we shouldn’t be saying SSGod is definetely stronger than SS4. Just because one form doesn’t do more ridiculous feats than the other. If GT writers felt like, SS4 would do more overboard stuff than SSGod. Battle of Gods just raised the bar in this aspect. And what enemies are you talking about? I think Zamas and Jiren are stronger than Omega Shenron, but what about the others?

If it's to disregard the universal scale feats, then all the rest I said is just my impression, because there's no way to compare GT and DBS enemies directly, it's need to use other ways to compare their power.

However officially, there is nothing to indicate that GT SSJ4 Goku is = SSB Goku, in fact there is more evidence pointing than SSB> SSJ4. For example, in DBZ Butoden, SSB is said to be the strongest Saiyan form (and SSJ4 Goku was in the game). And on DBX2, Gotenks suggests that SSG is stronger (image below)

And if I'm not mistaken, in XV2 there is a line of Gotenks that says SSG was a transformation above SSJ4. Generally, when SSJ4 and SSB are placed at the same level it is in DBH (with more powerful versions of GT Goku)

Source for line?

Because in DLC Pack # 6, we have RoF Goku & Vegeta going SS4 and Vegeta commenting that this is what it feels like to have the power of a 'god.' In addition, if Goku is your mentor/special partner, then you have your Goku partner go SSB and fighting with SS4 Goku, with no clear outcome of who's stronger. And note that this is comparing post-BoG versions of Goku, not the one from GT so the stronger base argument doesn't apply here.

Yes the Time Patrol members are in general stronger than the GT counterparts, however it required a SS Gogeta: Xeno to defeat GT Super Yi Xing Long (Omega Shenron). And since the Time Patrol are on the level of their Super counterparts, this SS Gogeta should be far stronger than a hypothetical SSB Goku: Xeno. Furthermore, SS4 GT Gogeta was able to defeat Dark Gogeta, whom was giving the entire Time Patrol trouble to the point where they needed Gohan: Xeno to go SS4. So even from a powerscale viewpoint, GT characters can still give the Time Patrol and therefore some DBS-level fighters a run for their money.

The image is in portuguese. But translated, Gotenks basically says:

''Have you heard about the Super Saiyan God? They say it's stronger even than a Super Saiyan 4!''

Spoiler:

And in DLC, Vegeta turns into SSJ4 even before getting SSB (and probably even before getting SSG at that point), which is why he thinks SSJ4 is the power of a god. Goku, who has already experienced the power of SSG says only that it's a incredible power

[Miracles]

We don't need to keep the feats going on every time for them to be considered real. Zeno's GodPad couldn't keep up with Dyspo's speed, but there were no complains when MUI Goku-Jiren happened, that doesn't mean Dyspo is faster than them. The feat to showcase Dyspo's speed already served it's purpose. Like Jiren shaking the world of void with his 20% or so. When he broke his limits he just lit stuff on fire when he should've at least throw the weaklings in the stands flying away to depths of the void. Even Beerus was feeling Jiren's waves from 109.

SS3 Gotenks opened up a portal just by shouting, Super Buu by getting upset. Broly never did that and he shouted all movie long while losing control just like Buuhan whose rage and lost of control ripped the fabric of space-time. Merged Zamasu's frustation did neither of those.

Vegito Blue and Merged Zamasu didn't do what SS Gogeta and SS Broly did: go to another dimension by the sheer power of their attacks. Actually stronger versions of them, SSB Gogeta and FP SS Broly, failed to do what they did just in SS. FPSS Broly and Blue Gogeta should've been travelling through dimensions every single time they came in contact with each other, how impossible to bear would've that been?
All of this doesn't nerf the characters involved, it just brings down a notch the full effect of the feat in order to make it watchable because it's a cartoon.

Since Yamcha vs Saibaimen we know how difficult it is to see them move but even Bulma can watches fights, and that doesn't retcon Piccolo teaching Gohan to not trust just his eyes.

Yes. Good factual explanation. Feats are usually just showing how powerful that level of status is. Just cause it isn't replicated or increases in scale doesn't mean they aren't as strong/stronger. Authors don't tend to really care about keeping such consistency anyway.

[Rakurai]

The image is in portuguese. But translated, Gotenks basically says:

''Have you heard about the Super Saiyan God? They say it's stronger even than a Super Saiyan 4!''

Spoiler:

And in DLC, Vegeta turns into SSJ4 even before getting SSB (and probably even before getting SSG at that point), which is why he thinks SSJ4 is the power of a god. Goku, who has already experienced the power of SSG says only that it's a incredible power

Right, that dialogue is unique to Gotenks when he's your mentor/special partner and the player is a Saiyan. I think that's the only time when a character makes a remark about SS4 vs SSG.

However all other dialogue and character interactions imply otherwise. Nobody disputes Vegeta's claim. Mentor Goku feels the need to go SSB when faced up against SS4. Whis claims it would make a perfect GoD. The former is pretty much a clear indication that they are at least on the same level of power, and therefore SS4 > SSG.

[ankokudaishogun]

Whis claims it would make a perfect GoD.

Where he says this?

[Rakurai]

Whis claims it would make a perfect GoD.

Where he says this?

It's either in one of the crossover stories or in one of his battle dialogues...? Can't remember which but he def says it.

[ekrolo2]

4 should be weaker than God but due to Xeno Goku and such, it's been made an equal to Blue. Hell, they've even made SS4 Kaio-Ken a thing probably to even the odds more.

[Rakurai]

The image is in portuguese. But translated, Gotenks basically says:

''Have you heard about the Super Saiyan God? They say it's stronger even than a Super Saiyan 4!''

Spoiler:

And in DLC, Vegeta turns into SSJ4 even before getting SSB (and probably even before getting SSG at that point), which is why he thinks SSJ4 is the power of a god. Goku, who has already experienced the power of SSG says only that it's a incredible power

It's come to my attention thanks to someone on Twitter that the line by Gotenks actually refers to SS3, not SS4, as well as SSB, not SSG. The line in Portuguese is falsified. Which makes more sense because why would Gotenks talk about SS4 in the first place?

The actual line is this:

''Have you heard about the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan? It's supposed to be even more powerful than a Super Saiyan 3!''

Spoiler:

So the fact remains that Xenoverse does not outright explicitly state anything about SS4's power being inferior to SSG/B.

Whis claims it would make a perfect GoD.

Where he says this?

It's either in one of the crossover stories or in one of his battle dialogues...? Can't remember which but he def says it.

Also I went back to check. It's in his battle dialogue when he fights against SS4 Goku.

Whis: "That form... It's wonderful! I think you'd make a perfect God of Destruction."
Goku: "Stop it. It's not for me."