Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

Kaioken Blue wasn't attributed to Godly Ki but to the "Perfect Ki Control" of Blue.
Else, he could have used it with SSGod as well.

And i honestly don't remember the tidbit about Hakai.

frankly, everything suggests "God Ki" isn't the CAUSE of Saiyans becoming gods, but the EFFECT: because Goku became a God, his Ki became godly.

Perfect Ki control is God Ki. If it wasn't, by that logic Goku should be able to used the Kaioken in his normal Super Saiyan forms since he learned perfect ki control in his base form in Whis' staff. Also, Super Saiyan God is more than twenty times weaker than Blue from what we have seen in the TOP. So why would he used Super Saiyan God with Kaioken?

Goku even in Blue isn't really a god as Black himself pointed out. Just a mortal cloaked in godly power.

Goku and Vegeta become Gods using both SSG and SSB. Deities cannot have their Ki felt by humans, and this is exactly what happens when Goku / Vegeta transforms (something said several times in DBS).

Black calls them humans because essentially they are actually human and need to use a transformation to become gods.

They can have their ki sensed for humans if their power is high enough. Which is how Freeza, Hit, and later Trunks sensed Blue.

He called them mortals not real gods since they're just cloaking themselves in god ki. Not that they're actual gods like Beerus, despite Beerus coming from mortal origin.

[Hugo Boss]

“God” is a title. There is a complex god hierarchy in Dragon Ball and there is Super Saiyan God. Despite having god ki and god in its name, it doesn’t belong to any category. So, while Goku and Vegeta possess the power of a god, they aren’t classified as a deity.

[SupremeKai25]

They don't suddenly become gods when they turn into SSG/SSB, otherwise those transformations would have been banned from the Tournament of Power, since it was made clear at the beginning that it was a competition between mortals. Even Toppo didn't become an actual God of Destruction when he started using the hakai. Much like Goku and Vegeta, he used divine power for his own but he himself remained a mere mortal.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Perfect Ki control is God Ki. If it wasn't, by that logic Goku should be able to used the Kaioken in his normal Super Saiyan forms since he learned perfect ki control in his base form in Whis' staff. Also, Super Saiyan God is more than twenty times weaker than Blue from what we have seen in the TOP. So why would he used Super Saiyan God with Kaioken?

Goku even in Blue isn't really a god as Black himself pointed out. Just a mortal cloaked in godly power.

Goku and Vegeta become Gods using both SSG and SSB. Deities cannot have their Ki felt by humans, and this is exactly what happens when Goku / Vegeta transforms (something said several times in DBS).

Black calls them humans because essentially they are actually human and need to use a transformation to become gods.

They can have their ki sensed for humans if their power is high enough. Which is how Freeza, Hit, and later Trunks sensed Blue.

He called them mortals not real gods since they're just cloaking themselves in god ki. Not that they're actual gods like Beerus, despite Beerus coming from mortal origin.

Their Ki cannot yet be felt by normal humans, that's the point. Whis makes that clear. This is one of the main characteristics of a God.

Spoiler:

There is literally no counterargument against Goku / Vegeta becoming gods with SSG and Blue, because Whis also makes that clear at the beginning of DBS. And if that's not enough, he still says he doesn't know if he was like Beerus or Kaioshin, but Goku had definitely become a God. They just don't occupy any divine office.

Spoiler:

Black calls them human because ... they are human.They need to transform to gain access to God Ki (unlike a Kaioshin or Hakaishin)

They don't suddenly become gods when they turn into SSG/SSB, otherwise those transformations would have been banned from the Tournament of Power, since it was made clear at the beginning that it was a competition between mortals. Even Toppo didn't become an actual God of Destruction when he started using the hakai. Much like Goku and Vegeta, he used divine power for his own but he himself remained a mere mortal.

Except that the GoD from universe 11 says Toppo is a GoD (just like the episode title, the synopsis made by official magazines and everything else) and he was not disqualified from the tournament.

Goku and Vegeta are human, that's why they can participate. But there are no rules preventing them from using God Ki (which is what makes them gods, as I said).

[Grand Marshal 1]

I think that people have confused two different things. The energy and the power of God forms can be felt by mortals. It isn't the Ki that they feel. It is the raw output of energy that the God forms unleash.

For example, Piccolo's statement on Vegeta's transformation into SSJBE for the first time: "his energy feels different from his regular blue" or something like that.

The forms still radiate power. It is their divine nature that cannot be sensed. And as for Vegeta learning to read God Ki in the Golden Freeza saga, someone may argue that at that point he had already tapped into SSJG, thus had experience.

Unless you tap into God powers, you can't sense your opponent's God Ki. Jiren had a colossal normal Ki. I believe that he could access God Ki at one point, or he already did, but that's speculation.

Chi≠power output that is unleashed

Both are the same principle of energy, but I would compare it to the sun. You don't know it's temperature but the radiation emitted gives you an idea of how hot it is, given that the light from it travels millions of kilometers of dead space to reach the Earth in rather high temperature. But these rays are nowhere near the sun's actual temperature.

Perhaps it wasn't a good example, but I tried to at least provide one.

[HeroR]

Goku and Vegeta become Gods using both SSG and SSB. Deities cannot have their Ki felt by humans, and this is exactly what happens when Goku / Vegeta transforms (something said several times in DBS).

Black calls them humans because essentially they are actually human and need to use a transformation to become gods.

They can have their ki sensed for humans if their power is high enough. Which is how Freeza, Hit, and later Trunks sensed Blue.

He called them mortals not real gods since they're just cloaking themselves in god ki. Not that they're actual gods like Beerus, despite Beerus coming from mortal origin.

Their Ki cannot yet be felt by normal humans, that's the point. Whis makes that clear. This is one of the main characteristics of a God.

Spoiler:

There is literally no counterargument against Goku / Vegeta becoming gods with SSG and Blue, because Whis also makes that clear at the beginning of DBS. And if that's not enough, he still says he doesn't know if he was like Beerus or Kaioshin, but Goku had definitely become a God. They just don't occupy any divine office.

Spoiler:

Black calls them human because ... they are human.They need to transform to gain access to God Ki (unlike a Kaioshin or Hakaishin)

They don't suddenly become gods when they turn into SSG/SSB, otherwise those transformations would have been banned from the Tournament of Power, since it was made clear at the beginning that it was a competition between mortals. Even Toppo didn't become an actual God of Destruction when he started using the hakai. Much like Goku and Vegeta, he used divine power for his own but he himself remained a mere mortal.

Except that the GoD from universe 11 says Toppo is a GoD (just like the episode title, the synopsis made by official magazines and everything else) and he was not disqualified from the tournament.

Goku and Vegeta are human, that's why they can participate. But there are no rules preventing them from using God Ki (which is what makes them gods, as I said).

And again, mortals of a certain level can sense god ki:

Minute: 9

Freeza: "Judging from the energy I'm sensing, it seems that I will be the victor, does it not?"
Goku: "I think it'll be a close match."
Freeza: "No, I am superior."

Significance: A major plot point on Namek was that Freeza was unable to sense energy without a scouter. It seems that in his training, he not only learned to sense energy, but godly energy as well. Quite an improvement. Some groups mistranslated this as Freeza telling Goku to sense his energy & feel how superior he is.

Hit: https://youtu.be/hwvS0V3DwrI?t=110 Able to perfectly guess the Blue Kaioken multiplier.

So ordinary mortals can sense god ki if their power level is high enough.

Black knows the different between a god and a mortal cloaking themselves in god ki. Heck when Toppo became a God of Destruction he was specifically called 'becoming a god', while when Goku went Blue the one thing said was 'he has a power rivals the gods': https://youtu.be/veBYIXkMUfI?t=10. Which is ironically the same thing Gowasu said about Super Saiyan 2.

[Miracles]

TOEI's writing is horrendously inconsistent. If the manga does not substantiate mortals being able to sense god Ki, no matter how strong, then it isn't true.

[TheSaiyanGod]

And again, mortals of a certain level can sense god ki:

Minute: 9

Freeza: "Judging from the energy I'm sensing, it seems that I will be the victor, does it not?"
Goku: "I think it'll be a close match."
Freeza: "No, I am superior."

Significance: A major plot point on Namek was that Freeza was unable to sense energy without a scouter. It seems that in his training, he not only learned to sense energy, but godly energy as well. Quite an improvement. Some groups mistranslated this as Freeza telling Goku to sense his energy & feel how superior he is.

Hit: https://youtu.be/hwvS0V3DwrI?t=110 Able to perfectly guess the Blue Kaioken multiplier.

So ordinary mortals can sense god ki if their power level is high enough.

Black knows the different between a god and a mortal cloaking themselves in god ki. Heck when Toppo became a God of Destruction he was specifically called 'becoming a god', while when Goku went Blue the one thing said was 'he has a power rivals the gods': https://youtu.be/veBYIXkMUfI?t=10. Which is ironically the same thing Gowasu said about Super Saiyan 2.

The fact that in the anime, characters like Hit and Freeza can feel God Ki changes nothing. NORMAL humans cannot yet feel this kind of Ki, and that is one of the characteristics of a God. As shown in the anime, Goku and Vegeta's Ki as SSG and SSB cannot be felt by normal humans, which is why they become gods while using these transformations.

And I showed Whis clearly saying that Goku became a God with SSG (exactly the same thing said for Toppo, which you are considering as a God while Goku and Vegeta not). What Kaioshin said about SSB Goku's power to rival the gods is in terms of strength, I don't know how that proves that SSB Goku is not a god.

[HeroR]

And again, mortals of a certain level can sense god ki:

Minute: 9

Freeza: "Judging from the energy I'm sensing, it seems that I will be the victor, does it not?"
Goku: "I think it'll be a close match."
Freeza: "No, I am superior."

Significance: A major plot point on Namek was that Freeza was unable to sense energy without a scouter. It seems that in his training, he not only learned to sense energy, but godly energy as well. Quite an improvement. Some groups mistranslated this as Freeza telling Goku to sense his energy & feel how superior he is.

Hit: https://youtu.be/hwvS0V3DwrI?t=110 Able to perfectly guess the Blue Kaioken multiplier.

So ordinary mortals can sense god ki if their power level is high enough.

Black knows the different between a god and a mortal cloaking themselves in god ki. Heck when Toppo became a God of Destruction he was specifically called 'becoming a god', while when Goku went Blue the one thing said was 'he has a power rivals the gods': https://youtu.be/veBYIXkMUfI?t=10. Which is ironically the same thing Gowasu said about Super Saiyan 2.

The fact that in the anime, characters like Hit and Freeza can feel God Ki changes nothing. NORMAL humans cannot yet feel this kind of Ki, and that is one of the characteristics of a God. As shown in the anime, Goku and Vegeta's Ki as SSG and SSB cannot be felt by normal humans, which is why they become gods while using these transformations.

And I showed Whis clearly saying that Goku became a God with SSG (exactly the same thing said for Toppo, which you are considering as a God while Goku and Vegeta not). What Kaioshin said about SSB Goku's power to rival the gods is in terms of strength, I don't know how that proves that SSB Goku is not a god.

Except 'normal' mortals can sense god ki as long as they have the power level. Despite being old, no one claimed that Hit was abnormal. Same with Trunks who couldn't sense Blue originally but could sense Vegito Blue after he got Super Saiyan Rage.

Except only Whis said that and no one else followed through with saying any of Goku's god forms made him a god. Not the Kais when they saw Blue, not Zamasu when he saw any of the god forms, and not even Belmond who he bragged that Toppo was a god when he went God of Destruction. Especially when Super Saiyan God in Battle of Gods has abilities we never seen again like healing.

Which shows while Blue has the power to rival a god, it doesn't make Goku nor Vegeta into actual gods. Just cloak them in divine power. That and Toppo considered a god since Belmond literally said 'he's no different than a God of Destruction'.

[HeroR]

TOEI's writing is horrendously inconsistent. If the manga does not substantiate mortals being able to sense god Ki, no matter how strong, then it isn't true.

That isn't an inconsistent since it was more or less stated after Vegeta trained with Whis that mortal's can be trained to sense god ki without needing to be a god: https://youtu.be/3jFiV0se9FE?t=64 (Vegeta is in his base form which has no god ki).

Especially this weird 'if it isn't in the manga, then it isn't true', which is a made-up rule. Like saying that since the manga never said anything about the Namekian Book of Legend, it doesn't actual exist (which people actually argued until Toriyama directly mentioned it).

[Miracles]

TOEI's writing is horrendously inconsistent. If the manga does not substantiate mortals being able to sense god Ki, no matter how strong, then it isn't true.

That isn't an inconsistent since it was more or less stated after Vegeta trained with Whis that mortal's can be trained to sense god ki without needing to be a god: https://youtu.be/3jFiV0se9FE?t=64 (Vegeta is in his base form which has no god ki).

Especially this weird 'if it isn't in the manga, then it isn't true', which is a made-up rule. Like saying that since the manga never said anything about the Namekian Book of Legend, it doesn't actual exist (which people actually argued until Toriyama directly mentioned it).

It not being in the manga means it probably wasn't in Toriyama's outline. Therefore just something either TOEI/Toyotaro did on their own.
Besides, Vegeta being able to sense god ki [when he has god ki] doesn't mean those who don't have god ki can start to sense it. TOEI doesn't pay attention some times.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Except 'normal' mortals can sense god ki as long as they have the power level. Despite being old, no one claimed that Hit was abnormal. Same with Trunks who couldn't sense Blue originally but could sense Vegito Blue after he got Super Saiyan Rage.

Except only Whis said that and no one else followed through with saying any of Goku's god forms made him a god. Not the Kais when they saw Blue, not Zamasu when he saw any of the god forms, and not even Belmond who he bragged that Toppo was a god when he went God of Destruction. Especially when Super Saiyan God in Battle of Gods has abilities we never seen again like healing.

Which shows while Blue has the power to rival a god, it doesn't make Goku nor Vegeta into actual gods. Just cloak them in divine power. That and Toppo considered a god since Belmond literally said 'he's no different than a God of Destruction'.

I don't know why you keep talking about Trunks, Hit and Freeza being able to feel divine Ki something I never disagreed with and that doesn't disprove the fact that SSB Goku / Vegeta become Gods because normal humans (which again don't include these 3) can't feel their ki

And it's funny how you keep ignoring a clear statement from Whis stating that Goku had undeniably become a God after becoming SSG, while considering Toppo to be a God because Belmod said that.
The fact that Blue is said to rival the gods does not suggest that this is a non-divine form (it makes no sense), because this statement is only about power. In previous statements, the SSB has already been established as a God form.

Actually, on Blue's first appearance it is confirmed that Goku also becomes a God in this form, as when Goku transforms, Kuririn notices that he can no longer feel his Ki and immediately assumes that Goku has become SSG (again emphasizing that this factor really makes the user a deity), and he only corrects his speech when he realizes that this time the hair is blue and therefore must be a stronger form

TOEI's writing is horrendously inconsistent. If the manga does not substantiate mortals being able to sense god Ki, no matter how strong, then it isn't true.

That isn't an inconsistent since it was more or less stated after Vegeta trained with Whis that mortal's can be trained to sense god ki without needing to be a god: https://youtu.be/3jFiV0se9FE?t=64 (Vegeta is in his base form which has no god ki).

Especially this weird 'if it isn't in the manga, then it isn't true', which is a made-up rule. Like saying that since the manga never said anything about the Namekian Book of Legend, it doesn't actual exist (which people actually argued until Toriyama directly mentioned it).

It's an inconsistency because as far as we know, Freeza and Trunks didn't have specific training to be able to feel God Ki (something Vegeta took months to do training with an angel). We assume it is due to their level of power, but this is also something that has never been said in the series.

[Grand Marshal 1]

So I thought that I should do some estimations for fusions and provide my insight in this rather confusing topic. Being honest, mathematics don't work the same for fusions, for evident reasons. Starting off, let me rephrase an error from my part in one of my previous messages, where I placed Jiren at SFP/LB at 125×SSJB. I believe that his power is above that. 130×SSJB actually. Might seem as a minor difference but it counts.

It's not me that I can't accept a new logic for fusions (Base fusion>strongest form of both individuals) but it can't really add up to the mix. I can only see fusion as an addition of powers. And I am actually glad that my Metamoran Fusion Formula before the retconning of Gogeta, can still be used. That, combined with Gogeta=Vegito and I have it served on a golden plate.

Things to consider. This is my head cannon, trying to explain with as much official data as possible my view on fusions, currently. So here you go:

SSJ4= 4,000×Base
SSJG= 12,500×Base
SSJB= 5×SSJG
MUI= 150×SSJB


Vegito=Gogeta

For Xeno Goku to be on par with CC Goku (a post-ToP Super Goku) in SSJ4, with the latter in SSJB and still being defeated, he should be around 10 times stronger in Base. Seeing how he would be able to force CC Goku to Blue, but like with Wrathful II/Ikari Broly (who had a nearly same powerup of 40,000×Base) would still be easy stuff for Blue, I gave him such a number. Xeno Vegeta shouldn't be that far behind, the same goes for CC Vegeta.

Or Xenos (Base) = 10×CC (Base) (Post-ToP Super, or Broly movie)

In that case, their respective fusions in their strongest forms, should be on the same power level, with CC being always on the edge with Blue over the Xenos' 4. Or CC Vegito Blue> Xeno Vegito 4 (simply stronger, not by many times). Practically the same applies to Gogeta.

My formula for fusion was the sum of both users' power multiplied by dozens of times as stated in Super. It was stated with Kefla, but Potara is now equal to the Metamoran Fusion, so it was meant to be the same.

My formula was an easy one. Base+Base× Y(the number corresponding for the fusion's multiplier). The max number is ×72 of the sum of both individuals base powers. If one of them has to suppress their strength, then this multiplier is decreased. Say a 10% decrease in the power of a fusee will result in a fusion with a multiplier ×64.8 (because each percentage of power decreased, decreases the fusion's multiplier by 1% or by ×0.72).

So, with Vegeta and Goku being exactly the same in Base, Gogeta is logically 144 times stronger than each one of them in Base. Doesn't seem much, but it makes sense. I will highball him to 150×Base.

Now this means the following. Blue Gogeta would be 150×SSJB, or exactly in the same level as MUI Goku. A good match for SFP/LB Jiren. Above all other characters. FP SSJ Broly was for me roughly a ×10 SSJB, but even if I feel generous and double him, he is only on par with KK×20 Blue Goku. Not sure if he can defeat GoD Toppo easily, as the very same Goku was on par in said form with initial Blue Evolution Vegeta, who was being prey to Toppo. So, with Blue Gogeta toying with Broly around, a power difference of nearly 15 (or 7.5 for some of you) times, is massive. Which is also why I think that Jiren at SFP/LB would probably treat Broly in the same manner, only with more effort as he is below MUI/Blue Fusion, not equal.

For some additional info, XGogeta as a SSJ was equal to Omega Shenron. Super Gogeta would be 150 times stronger than a regular Xeno SSJ and Omega Shenron is 40,000× Base. For a nearly 2×Xeno SSJ4 Super Gogeta to be equal to Omega Shenron, then the Bases from GT at that time would have to be 5 times weaker. Even so, GT SSJ4 Gogeta would be 150 times that. Or 15 times stronger than Omega. Plenty of power to use "only one finger to defeat" the Dragon.

Kinda wondered how Fin plays a role later on the series, as him absorbing GT SSJ4 Gogeta allowed him to momentarily overpower XGogeta SSJ4. Could it be that Fin multiplied his power with Gogeta's to achieve this? (given that he is Base Xeno level) or is it a weird addition? Can't work that out easily though.

Anyway, my point remains the same. 150 times stronger than each fusee sounds right to me.

Let me also add one more thing. Against Golden Great Ape Cumber, Vegito Blue would win because he was nearly 3 times stronger. It actually troubles me why Cumber said that Jiren was his most powerful opponent yet. Could be that Vegito simply toyed with Cumber. Even so SSJ3 FP is slightly stronger than GGA, so the power difference isn't that great.


Thoughts?

[Hugo Boss]

If Vegetto went as far as to use kaioken, he certainly wasn’t playing around. Anyway, it seems Jiren is still the strongest in Heroes verse, considering that Cumber is even with Top. Why would SS3 Full Power be stronger than Golden Great Ape though?

[Grand Marshal 1]

If Vegetto went as far as to use kaioken, he certainly wasn’t playing around. Anyway, it seems Jiren is still the strongest in Heroes verse, considering that Cumber is even with Top. Why would SS3 Full Power be stronger than Golden Great Ape though?

Cumber only used the form against Jiren, claiming that for him, he was the strongest opponent yet. Of course Cumber may had underestimated Vegito. In game, Vegito never used KK. That was a thing for the promotion. Only Goku used KK against Cumber in the game. And seeing how the latter was in SSJ, Goku went perhaps for a simple KK or something higher (as seen against Hit, he can changed the multiplier for the immediate next numbers without getting different, ×2,×3,×4). But when Cumber realized that Goku and Vegeta may use fusion again, he went GGA, thinking that this powerup would be enough for anything that they threw at him.

So back to the point, having my SSJ3FP multiplier of 800×Base, above GGA but not by a great margin, passes the message. Imo, Blue Fusions and MUI are on the same level. SFP/LB Jiren can't do much but counterattack and defend against such opponents (the Rage Boost for MUI has become part of the form imo, elevetaing Goku above Jiren, instead of being equals) unless if he uses some form of will power boost himself to regain extra strength. Then he should be on par.

[Hugo Boss]

Why do you think SS3FP is stronger than GGA?

[Grand Marshal 1]

Why do you think SS3FP is stronger than GGA?

It would only make sense, as Cumber had this in his mind as his mightiest form. One that only Jiren pushed him to use. GGA was of course the natural top form, but seeing how he deemed it obsolete against Jiren, it shows us that it is a power greater than any other forms that he showcased before. Against Toppo (GoD Mode) he only used SSJ3. He only used SSJ3 against XVegito (lost though) and went GGA probably thinking that CC Vegito would return, supposing that 10 times the power of what he used previously against the fusion, would be enough. But Blue Vegito was above Toppo and XVegito for example. Jiren was thought to be mightier. Makes sense to use SSJ3 FP against him after his claims. He could use GGA, but didn't. FPSSJ3 was clearly his best option. Going GGA without Fu around could be plausible, but seeing how Fu could use powers to revert him to Base, he probably had it as a second resort.

And for the scaling to fit in, with him Fused Zamasu and Hearts to deal with Jiren and still not being able to take him down, he can't be much stronger in the state than 2 times his SSJ3, which is already comparable to GoD Toppo.

But where would you place him? In SSJ3FP. It isn't that much of a deal so, I want to listen to your opinion too.

[Hugo Boss]

If I recall correctly Fu cut Cumber’s tail, that’s why he can’t use GGA anymore. I think SS3FP is just the way Cumber found to tap into that power without undergoing the same process, as if it was his SS4.

[Grand Marshal 1]

If I recall correctly Fu cut Cumber’s tail, that’s why he can’t use GGA anymore. I think SS3FP is just the way Cumber found to tap into that power without undergoing the same process, as if it was his SS4.

Taking a look in the game's dialogues for a sec. Apparently, Fu only absorbed the energy that Cumber generated in order to become a GGA. Originally, I also placed FPSSJ3 on par with SSJ4 given it's nature. But truly, the boost isn't that great.

[Hugo Boss]

I think that since SS3FP resembles berserk, that’s more or less how Cumber uses his GGA powers. So, to make it simple, SS3FP = GGA = SS4.