Vic Mignogna

[KBABZ]

But I doubt that will faze the judge, since he barely uses his FB account.

Oh, I'm sure they'll find a way around that little problem. Maybe dox him, maybe find where he is most active, or something like that. You know, really make sure he gets the message.

Well in that case, the judge better be aware and protect himself!

Not gonna look good for Vic's case if the judge is attacked or (seriously god forbid) killed by a VicStan over his ruling.

[Shaddy]

Oh, I'm sure they'll find a way around that little problem. Maybe dox him, maybe find where he is most active, or something like that. You know, really make sure he gets the message.

I think you may want to edit that to "maybe they'll dox him. I know you're just predicting their tactics but they're gonna keep searching for ammo for a while after this and I could easily see them doxxing someone, cutting off the top of that message and saying "see KV PLANNED it to make our doxxers look bad!"

[Fionordequester]

Well in that case, the judge better be aware and protect himself!

Good point. You get the memo, EX? I just edited my message as needed, but the last one's still quoted in your response.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I think that I've figured out the reasoning behind the jellybean argument. It's a hybrid logical fallacy I'll dub the 'Reducto Ad Strawman'.

How it works is, when you are presented with a strong argument backed by large amount of evidence, you latch onto the weakest piece of evidence you can find that your opponent is using to back up their case. Something that, when taken by itself, sounds absolutely worthless. Even if the other side has admitted that evidence is wrong or stopped using it, you still act like it forms the backbone of their case.

For example, some creationists will say that 'there's no evidence of evolution except for the Piltdown Man hoax', when in reality, that particular hoax was exposed by scientists and hasn't been taken seriously for over 100 years. But by saying this, they can pretend that all of the paleontological, genetic, observational, experimental, morphological, and other types of evidence for evolution don't exist, by only calling attention to this one thing.

Same with the jellybean.

[Fionordequester]

Well, you all know how much I love looking for the best in people, so let's have something encouraging, too:

Spoiler:

Some folks might be upset at these guys thinking they're on the right side... But I'm happy just taking whatever virtues I can get.

For example, some creationists will say that 'there's no evidence of evolution except for the Piltdown Man hoax', when in reality, that particular hoax was exposed by scientists and hasn't been taken seriously for over 100 years. But by saying this, they can pretend that all of the paleontological, genetic, observational, experimental, morphological, and other types of evidence for evolution don't exist, by only calling attention to this one thing.

For what it's worth, there are many Christians that embrace evolution as well. Myself included .

[Polyphase Avatron]

For what it's worth, there are many Christians that embrace evolution as well. Myself included .

Hence my use of 'creationist' specifically. Also there are non-Christian creationists.

[Fionordequester]

Hence my use of 'creationist' specifically. Also there are non-Christian creationists.

Ah. Alrighty then, just... Didn't want'cha thinkin' we ignore science, that's all .

[Ringworm128]

This is just hilarious to me. Wow. I don't get men.

Snip

The problem most people have with the term "toxic masculinity" is that a distinction between it and normal masculinity is very rarely drawn. It's quite common to see posts online mocking male orientated pastimes or interests, or even traditional masculine aesthetics such as beards or even certain clothing. I've had people try and tell me I have issues because I want to start being more masculine, start doing sports, drinking the occasional whiskey be a bit more stronger and assertive to get my confidence and self respect back up, which would normally be considered a healthy thing mentally. So it's quite easy to see how men can see the term "toxic masculinity" as an insult to their existence, and not just "Stop being an asshole."

[Shaddy]

I don't think anyone would argue that it's not a poorly-named concept.

[8000 Saiyan]

What a nice strategy there, guys. "Hey guys, let's harass a judge. There's no way we can come off as stupid by doing this, right?! Huehue!"

[Kunzait_83]

The problem most people have with the term "toxic masculinity" is that a distinction between it and normal masculinity is very rarely drawn. It's quite common to see posts online mocking male orientated pastimes or interests, or even traditional masculine aesthetics such as beards or even certain clothing. I've had people try and tell me I have issues because I want to start being more masculine, start doing sports, drinking the occasional whiskey be a bit more stronger and assertive to get my confidence and self respect back up, which would normally be considered a healthy thing mentally. So it's quite easy to see how men can see the term "toxic masculinity" as an insult to their existence, and not just "Stop being an asshole."

Couple things about that:

1) If you'll dig back in your pop cultural memory banks a little bit, you might recall there was a time maybe around ten+ years ago or so (mid through late 2000s), pre-GamerGate, pre-SJW and anti-SJW conflicts, pre-Redpills and MRAs, etc, where it was just INCREDIBLY fashionable amongst more generalized geek/nerd cultural spheres to both rag on and roll one's eyes derisively at things that were seen as "traditionally masculine". And like, of the decidedly non-toxic sort I mean.

This tended to manifest in things like Hipster Culture (which favored heavily metrosexual aesthetics as well as an INCREDIBLY snide, snobbish, and condescending attitude about maintaining it), and online nerd communities - particularly within anime/manga fan communities - just riding on a general trend of heavily downplaying or dismissing any form of art, media, or just generalized aesthetics across a very broad range, that was deemed "overtly manly" and the like.

Again, I'm not talking about things that are obviously toxically masculine (abusive behavior, unwanted aggressive sexual advances, rampant homophobia/transphobia and sexual insecurity, and generally militant, combative, and belligerent attitude towards anything deemed even remotely "weak" and such): I'm talking anything that was seen as just generally overtly physical/athletic or more broadly guy-like - even just in raw dress, attitude, and aesthetics - within regular people day to day out in the world or particularly within media depictions and such. Could be anything from masculine dress/fashion (work boots, flannel shirts, loose/normal fitting men's jeans, etc) to just general tone of speaking or body language (be it laconic stoicism, non-passive aggression, or what have you).

And within anime/manga fandoms, it tended to manifest as a revulsion/rejection of more adult male/masculine-hewing franchises and a heavy embrace of mostly very Shojo/Shonen or otherwise feminine/child-like material (this part of it within anime fandom spaces hasn't really gone away very much, but it HAS softened up a TINY bit overall in more recent years, relatively speaking).

To bring this toward something MUCH more specific to our own community here for just a moment: something like this also tended to (and STILL kinda does tend to) manifest within subtitled/Japanese-leaning corners of American/Western Dragon Ball fandom (like this one here) most often as a kind of misguided and ridiculous over-reactionary pushback against the FUNimation dub's "hardcore faux-treme WWE" aesthetic identity: where a lot of "subby" DB fans would overly shit on ANYTHING in their purview that they deemed as "too manly or macho" because they got much too stupidly carried away with wrapping up in their minds anything even faintly masculine with the stupid bullshit nonsense from the dub (which I would argue aren't really things that are ACTUALLY masculine or "tough", but rather are an out of touch corporate executive's skewed idea of a dumb, sugar-rushed 12 year old boy's idea of something super masculine and manly and whatnot when they're banging their action figures together on the playground).

And like, this whole phenomenon wasn't really a "political" thing at the time the way its been for most of the 2010s: it was more just an attitude like "it isn't considered 'cool' or 'fashionable' anymore to be seen as even the tiniest bit of an overly-manly dude". While the direction this has taken in the 2010s - where "masculine and feminine" traits are FAR more heavily politicized and people are genuinely confusing and falsely equating "toxic masculinity" for the normal kind, with the far right defining masculinity overall as PURELY the toxic kind and such - is obviously far, far, FAR infinitely worse and more senselessly destructive and horrific overall...

...yeah, there was actually a moment there for a time from around maybe 2003/2004 to 2009/2010 or so where a lot of people in various corners of youth/pop culture were just being really dumb and needlessly dickish about very benignly and harmlessly masculine physical and personality/behavioral traits. Again, it wasn't really much of a political thing at the time nor anything with any remote sort of sinister ulterior agenda and the like: it was more just a super idiotic and shallow pop cultural flavor/fad of the moment that lot of very stupid & silly people ran with way too hard for awhile.

Very key point here, but certainly I would not attribute any of this as being in ANY WAY entirely or 100% purely the main/primary cause for the current violently reactionary pushback that we've been seeing for most of the 2010s political and social climate - I think that the real roots of that are FAR more nuanced, complex, and multifaceted - but I certainly don't doubt that this above outlined aspect of 2000s youth culture played at least SOME degree of a role in things and otherwise just generally didn't help matters any.

I wouldn't be shocked if some people still see some remnants of this in their social circles even today though, depending on where they live and what kinds of circles they run with.


And moreover and much more importantly 2) For as much as we very much strongly agree on things like politics, economics, and basic mores of societal decency and tolerance (including staunchly pro-LGBTQ rights and such), this is one (of a good many other) areas where I break pretty fucking hard away from Julie's perspective and would GREATLY encourage people to get the fuck away from the internet (and its white padded room of an online culture) much more often and like, just actually go outside more and spend far, far, FAR more active time out and about within IRL society and civilization and just generally alter one's day to day lifestyle to be much less of an introvert.

Obviously I'm not advocating for just cutting the internet out of one's life ENTIRELY 100%: that would on one hand just be outright impractical if not impossible and also the internet certainly/obviously is incredibly useful and invaluably indispensable as an information resource when its actually applied well and critically.

But what I AM saying is that there are a FUCKLOAD of people in online forums and communities who really just spend FAR too much of their day to day lives online and doing most if not ALL of their social interaction via online forums like this one and social media sites and the like. And THAT I would strongly, STRONGLY argue, is where a LOT of people's problems tend to be at least in some part stemming from.

Internet use I would argue is one of those things where moderation truly IS a key, key behavioral philosophy to hold oneself strongly to. Human beings are innately social creatures that require a great deal of (often complex and nuanced) social interaction to maintain their mental health and emotional stability. And by and large, you're just NOT going to often get a whole lot of nuance or emotionally balanced interactions from a whole lot of people in many parts of the internet: particularly since many parts of the internet tend to be much more heavily populated by some fairly damaged and mentally unwell individuals who create digital echo chambers for themselves and their respective manias.

And this goes WELL past the usual right wing/Redpill lunatics out there (though indeed, they are unquestionably some of the absolute, rock bottom worst of the worst): there are certain corners of "left internet", and also just totally apolitical areas of the internet as well, that can get pretty unreasonably hyperbolic and lacking in basic common sense perspective.

There's a LOT about the nature of the internet that breeds things like personal echo chambers, confirmation bias, and uncritical, un-nuanced thinking, and thus inspires and encourages a lot of people toward being emotionally hyper-reactionary in general. Again, this is fairly universal regardless of one's political leanings - though needless to say, people with far right wing authoritarian tendencies are MUCH more heavily pliable and susceptible to falling much deeper much harder into this kind of manic thinking.

Basically, if you're someone who is very socially introverted and doesn't go out and do much socializing out in the real world and instead supplants much of that with internet use and online social interaction: I would strongly recommend doing whatever possible to try and fix/improve/reverse that, to whatever extent possible. If you're someone who has a lot of social anxiety (as that tends to be a root cause of this kind of "heavily online" lifestyle of a lot of people), please by all means consider looking into getting professional help for it and working toward getting past it.

I really, really do think that too much social interaction spent online and nowhere remotely NEAR enough spend out in the real world face to face among other human beings in the flesh, is lying at the root of a LOT of these problems. Its by NO MEANS the end-all-be-all singular culprit obviously, and there are NUMEROUS just as key important elements that are also playing a role (including economic/political). But things like depression and social anxiety and the like are WAY too often lying at the root of a lot of people's heavy online use and lead to many people just "giving up" on the outside world entirely and living most of their lives through a computer screen.

There's a cliche saying that "the internet is not real life". That's only PARTLY true, but not entirely. The internet is simply one lone portion/fraction of real life. And its a portion that is often (though obviously not always) HEAVILY skewed and filtered through a series of mentally & emotionally unbalanced prisms that only paint a VERY incomplete portrait of reality. The only way that you're ever going to get a more complete, balanced, and overall more accurate picture of reality - and by extension, of your fellow humankind - is the get the fuck outside into the thick of it and start actually living it for reals.

And once you get outside more, travel around more, and really immerse yourself more deeply into broader society in general... you'll find that while yes, there are still plenty of dumb reactionary and hyperbolic (as well as out and out just plain NUTS) individuals out there, there's also just a LOT more healthily balanced, reasonable, and decently intelligent people than you might realize as well. You just won't see the latter nearly as often as the former online because the former are more often than not more the kinds of people who're more prone to monopolize most of their time spent on the internet (and thus, eat up much, MUCH more of the internet's cultural real estate), whereas the latter are much more busy spending more of their time out and about living their actual lives.

[Ringworm128]

It's too late/not a good idea for me to attempt socializing in the "real world" outside of school/work.

Anyway if you recall the "hipster" movement from the early 2010's, you would remember that it was heavily mocked; especially in online nerd/geek circles. It was basically the forerunner to the "soyboy" stereotype.

[Kunzait_83]

It's too late/not a good idea for me to attempt socializing in the "real world" outside of school/work.

Anyway if you recall the "hipster" movement from the early 2010's, you would remember that it was heavily mocked; especially in online nerd/geek circles. It was basically the forerunner to the "soyboy" stereotype.

While I don't know your personal IRL history and context, I would still argue that - with relatively few and highly specific exceptions - its just about almost never "too late" to do much of anything in life until you're in the ground feeding the worms. Certainly this goes for something like just simply getting away from the computer/internet more often and leading a more actively outgoing lifestyle.

As far as the hipster stuff goes, I'm going a bit further back than the early 2010s here (like I said, from around maybe 2003/2004 up through 2009-ish or so). While there was certainly a heavy backlash against it with many corners of the internet being HEAVILY united against it, out in the real world (especially within plenty of heavily urban areas) the whole Hipster Chic thing was VERY exceedingly popular for awhile and was very much the "default" setting for a whole ton of younger people during a good bulk of the 2000s (once the whole Nu Metal thing had petered out and ran its course at least).

The backlash against it was very much more of an online thing (though it certainly seeped into the real world a good bit after awhile), certainly something that had well set in by the early 2010s. And yeah, I would agree that a lot of that stuff was very much an earlier forerunner to a lot of the Redpill/Incel/MRA stereotypes about "Libtard Cucks" that are proliferated heavily today.

Personally, while I was never in any remote way even vaguely fond of the whole "metro hipster" subcultural trend at the time and considered it plenty stupid and up its own ass... needless to say that obviously the current far right wing backlash against anything/everything vaguely perceived as "non-masculine" (within a VERY toxified lens) is a WHOOOOOOOLE lot fucking monstrously, hideously, exponentially worse and is without question outright dangerous and corrosive to the general well-being of most people caught within its vortex.

Like, its not even REMOTELY close: this current alt-right/Incel/Redpill/MAGA shit has now directly (and indirectly via political actions) lead to actual people literally DYING and being killed out in the streets: by an increasingly horrifying number. Whereas the only things that the whole hipster fad ever lead to being killed were a shitload of brain cells. As dumb as the metro-hipster thing was and as much as I hated it, I'd still gladly and eagerly take it over the current MAGA wave any and every day, no question. One were just a bunch of stupid teens and college kids engaged in a cringy fad, the other are outright straight up lunatic monsters who are ruining and endangering a shit ton of people's lives on a near constant daily basis.

[JulieYBM]

I work retail, deal with a family that treats my trans ass like I'm the antagonist in their lives rather than the protagonist in my life and am currently one week deep into a cross-country trip to meet my fellow LGBTQIA+ friends. Trust me, I've earned my stealing away to the internet.

The problem here is that the right is better at marketing than the left is. They insert themselves into corners of the internet ripe with young minds, like gaming and 4chan and then hide their bigotry in 'irony' and 'sarcasm'. This scares the shit out of me as an aunt not allowed to come out to her nieces and a hopeful future mommy. The left is only just starting to catch up, in particular as LGBTQIA+ figures bloom into leaders in these common fandoms. I can only hope things keep improving and we can wash out conservative ideology soon.

[Kunzait_83]

The problem here is that the right is better at marketing than the left is. They insert themselves into corners of the internet ripe with young minds, like gaming and 4chan and then hide their bigotry in 'irony' and 'sarcasm'.

This is all totally correct. However, one of the crucial pieces of context that's allowed the far right's marketing to actually BE as effective as its been within these realms (gaming, anime fandom, etc) is that they're largely playing to an audience of mostly introverts and shut-ins who are GREATLY lacking in real world experience and are tremendously lacking in actually engaging with a great many diverse groups of people on the regular.

This makes it MUCH easier for these right wing fringe figures on Youtube, 4chan, and the like to dehumanize various groups of people (black, gay, trans, Muslims, women in general, whatever) into grotesque cartoonish caricatures within the minds of their audience, who then begin to see those people as something less or other than the fully rounded, fleshed out fellow human beings with many of the same wants, desires, hopes, dreams, fears, emotions, vulnerabilities, etc as anyone else that they actually are.

The problem that I'm talking about here is an outright emotionally and psychologically crippling lack of basic social experiences (and the personal growth and development that comes with it) within large swaths of people within these online "geek culture" spaces that is one of several DIRECT causes in making them vastly more pliable and vulnerable to cult-like indoctrination and extremist radicalization than the average person with a more average range of IRL social experience.

By and large overall, people NEED a certain level of human contact throughout their lives in order to properly develop a certain level of understanding and empathy for different groups of people that might otherwise appear "alien" or foreign to them on the surface: exposure and experience are overwhelmingly the most crucial tonics to bigotry and prejudice across a BROAD spectrum of people. The more you alienate and isolate people into their little corners and echo chambers, the more easily that actual "mob mentality" is likely to take hold within them over a long enough timeline (and with just the right external forces nudging them along in that direction).

And by that very same token, frankly I have HUGE problems when so much of online nerd culture (for like, much of the last 15+ years now) fetishizes and glorifies the idea of the "shut-in dork hunched over their computer screen, turning their back on living among people in the real world, because fuck all the popular kids, the Chads & Stacys, the normies, etc. they're all just sheeple". The idea that dropping out of basic human contact and leaning into/embracing one's social awkwardness and inability to connect with people on a fundamental human level is somehow "rebellious and cool" is a HUGE aspect of online youth culture among gamers and Otaku that's already existed for most of the 2000s and 2010s, years and years long before Trump, GamerGate, MAGA, the alt-right, and all this other horseshit became a thing.

And that "fuck living in the real world, fuck connecting with people, I'm going to retreat deep into my computer screen and video games/anime" aspect of online culture, which is innately unhealthy and inhibiting to basic human development (and even knowledge/education) in most people, is PRECISELY what the far right has been tapping into in order to gather up support and trust among throngs of young people online and get them buying into and parroting fascist and Neo Nazi ideology and beliefs.

In other words, its a LOT harder to trick so many people into thinking that all the problems within their lives and throughout the world are somehow primarily/solely the fault of women, brown people, and queer people if most people are actually out in the real world interacting, connecting, and forging bonds with such people personally in their day to day lives. The more segregated and shunted off into our tiny little corners we are, the easier it is to rile people up and play on their deepest fears, insecurities, bigotries, and their general ignorance.

And within online geek cultural spaces (like gaming and Otakudom) for much of the last 15 to 20 years, it becomes a BIG issue when those cultures take things that are CLEARLY unhealthy problems - social anxiety, difficulty connecting with others face to face, an inability relating to people of the opposite sex, etc - and spin them into not just points of pride but outright cool signifiers that gives so many young people (who should be still developing their social skills) all the rationale and excuses to view their worst problems as somehow these great assets that makes them somehow more "free and unburdened" than regular people they know: or to see them as reasons to dig themselves in further and just outright hate and spite all the quote unquote "normal" people who DON'T have these problems.

This kind of culture (which again, has been around and brewing for decades now) was simply NEVER going to end well or find itself at any kind of remotely positive or healthy logical endpoint with this sort of toxically anti-social shit being constantly egged on and encouraged/nurtured within it. I remember when I was little, back in the late 80s/early 90s, that Neo Nazi groups primarily used to most often target places like trailer parks and the like for recruitment: because those kinds of economically depressed "poor white trash" areas were at that time the PERFECT proving grounds to find lonely, disaffected, alienated/segregated, and poorly educated young people (usually male) to hook into and feed their bullshit scapegoating narratives and brainwashing.

Given the nature of the internet and of online nerd cultures (which has long had a history of pent up, misdirected resentment and youthful anger among neglected, lonely, and emotionally broken young people brewing within it) it was only a matter of time before fascist hate groups moved on from the trailer parks into gamer/anime nerd forums and online communities. And of course, thanks to our freefalling global economy born of broken politics and legalized/normalized corruption, more and more of the whole world stage (outside of the one percent's cozy little alcoves) is slowly, gradually becoming one great big economically depressed trailer park.

Thus of course, here we are today.

[JulieYBM]

You're operating without acknowledging why people stick to the internet as they do: social anxiety, PTSD and other disabilities. Not to be ableist, as I have all three of those, but the best course of action is to fix the internet, not dump everyone off or just blame it. Otherwise you're just dumping them back into their conservative or apolitical environments that do nothing to ensure a stable growth. I interact with the real world all the time and I can confirm that I am easily the most politcally savvy--thanks to the net--and they have just as easily a shot as being led astray there as they do on the net. At least on the net we can spread empathy and progressive ideology.

[ABED]

You're operating without acknowledging why people stick to the internet as they do: social anxiety, PTSD and other disabilities. Not to be ableist, as I have all three of those, but the best course of action is to fix the internet, not dump everyone off or just blame it. Otherwise you're just dumping them back into their conservative or apolitical environments that do nothing to ensure a stable growth. I interact with the real world all the time and I can confirm that I am easily the most politcally savvy--thanks to the net--and they have just as easily a shot as being led astray there as they do on the net. At least on the net we can spread empathy and progressive ideology.

What constitutes "fixing" the internet?

[JulieYBM]

You're operating without acknowledging why people stick to the internet as they do: social anxiety, PTSD and other disabilities. Not to be ableist, as I have all three of those, but the best course of action is to fix the internet, not dump everyone off or just blame it. Otherwise you're just dumping them back into their conservative or apolitical environments that do nothing to ensure a stable growth. I interact with the real world all the time and I can confirm that I am easily the most politcally savvy--thanks to the net--and they have just as easily a shot as being led astray there as they do on the net. At least on the net we can spread empathy and progressive ideology.

What constitutes "fixing" the internet?

By taking back the spaces infiltrated by conservatives, sharpening our messaging and teaching self-love. Typically these kids being radicalized are falling prey because they've been taught to hate themselves at home and places like 4chan or gaming circles, which trivialize real world issues and minorities, teach these kids to take their issues out on others. This is to say nothing of your political commentators like Shapiro or Crowder who are outright bigots that lean on ideas like "the left is overly-sensitive and can't take a joke, LOL!" Or Shapiro's "I'm just being factual and if your feelings get hurt then that's your problem." They're selling snake oil and telling these vulnerable kids who need something to believe in for self-preservation to believe in ideologies that simultaneously is about asserting false objectivity through "facts don't care about your feelings", hiding bigotry behind try-hard edgy 'humor' that is about punching down instead of up and nonsensical 'free market' economics and blaming the poor (typically GSRM) for their harsh lives.

[Ringworm128]

The problem here is that the right is better at marketing than the left is. They insert themselves into corners of the internet ripe with young minds, like gaming and 4chan and then hide their bigotry in 'irony' and 'sarcasm'.

Snip

I think you're giving far right recruiting way too much credit, and people's intelligence far too little. I didn't get out that much as a teen, and mostly lived on forums and talked to my family, yet I am completely immune to bigoted views and never needed a class or anything to tell me so. I imagine people who've actually gone to high school would have even more social experience.

[Polyphase Avatron]

If you'll dig back in your pop cultural memory banks a little bit, you might recall there was a time maybe around ten+ years ago or so (mid through late 2000s), pre-GamerGate, pre-SJW and anti-SJW conflicts, pre-Redpills and MRAs, etc, where it was just INCREDIBLY fashionable amongst more generalized geek/nerd cultural spheres to both rag on and roll one's eyes derisively at things that were seen as "traditionally masculine". And like, of the decidedly non-toxic sort I mean.

This tended to manifest in things like Hipster Culture (which favored heavily metrosexual aesthetics as well as an INCREDIBLY snide, snobbish, and condescending attitude about maintaining it), and online nerd communities - particularly within anime/manga fan communities - just riding on a general trend of heavily downplaying or dismissing any form of art, media, or just generalized aesthetics across a very broad range, that was deemed "overtly manly" and the like.

Again, I'm not talking about things that are obviously toxically masculine (abusive behavior, unwanted aggressive sexual advances, rampant homophobia/transphobia and sexual insecurity, and generally militant, combative, and belligerent attitude towards anything deemed even remotely "weak" and such): I'm talking anything that was seen as just generally overtly physical/athletic or more broadly guy-like - even just in raw dress, attitude, and aesthetics - within regular people day to day out in the world or particularly within media depictions and such. Could be anything from masculine dress/fashion (work boots, flannel shirts, loose/normal fitting men's jeans, etc) to just general tone of speaking or body language (be it laconic stoicism, non-passive aggression, or what have you).

And within anime/manga fandoms, it tended to manifest as a revulsion/rejection of more adult male/masculine-hewing franchises and a heavy embrace of mostly very Shojo/Shonen or otherwise feminine/child-like material (this part of it within anime fandom spaces hasn't really gone away very much, but it HAS softened up a TINY bit overall in more recent years, relatively speaking).

To bring this toward something MUCH more specific to our own community here for just a moment: something like this also tended to (and STILL kinda does tend to) manifest within subtitled/Japanese-leaning corners of American/Western Dragon Ball fandom (like this one here) most often as a kind of misguided and ridiculous over-reactionary pushback against the FUNimation dub's "hardcore faux-treme WWE" aesthetic identity: where a lot of "subby" DB fans would overly shit on ANYTHING in their purview that they deemed as "too manly or macho" because they got much too stupidly carried away with wrapping up in their minds anything even faintly masculine with the stupid bullshit nonsense from the dub (which I would argue aren't really things that are ACTUALLY masculine or "tough", but rather are an out of touch corporate executive's skewed idea of a dumb, sugar-rushed 12 year old boy's idea of something super masculine and manly and whatnot when they're banging their action figures together on the playground).

And like, this whole phenomenon wasn't really a "political" thing at the time the way its been for most of the 2010s: it was more just an attitude like "it isn't considered 'cool' or 'fashionable' anymore to be seen as even the tiniest bit of an overly-manly dude". While the direction this has taken in the 2010s - where "masculine and feminine" traits are FAR more heavily politicized and people are genuinely confusing and falsely equating "toxic masculinity" for the normal kind, with the far right defining masculinity overall as PURELY the toxic kind and such - is obviously far, far, FAR infinitely worse and more senselessly destructive and horrific overall...

...yeah, there was actually a moment there for a time from around maybe 2003/2004 to 2009/2010 or so where a lot of people in various corners of youth/pop culture were just being really dumb and needlessly dickish about very benignly and harmlessly masculine physical and personality/behavioral traits. Again, it wasn't really much of a political thing at the time nor anything with any remote sort of sinister ulterior agenda and the like: it was more just a super idiotic and shallow pop cultural flavor/fad of the moment that lot of very stupid & silly people ran with way too hard for awhile.

I was a member of the online anime/manga fandom at that point and I never saw such a thing. The forums I went to loved stuff like Naruto, DBZ, One Piece, YYH, Fist of the North Star, JJBA, Berserk, etc. Characters like Guts were specifically praised for being manly and badass. Meanwhile, they tended to hate on anything overly cutesy or 'moe'.