Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[shadd21]

Is there any truth to Champa > Jiren?

[Miracles]

We don't know. Jiren was only stated to be above Belmond. Champa is stated to be out of shape.

[ZombieVito]

That just can't work.

Take Goku's fight with Beerus in E42 as an example.

Base Goku there gave a much better fight than his BoG SS3 self ever did. I just can't see him being weaker.

Considering Beerus is much stronger than Super Saiyan Blue and he was fighting on par with Base Goku, his costume probably put quite a hindrance in his performance. So, there is really nothing to take from that.

I don't know man.

Whis even says Beerus was excited to fight but he will be fighting someone weaker than a guy he 2 shotted in BoG.

This will also mean that Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks from the Boo arc would on shot RoF FF Freeza. That can't be right.

[Miracles]

Wow, people don't take Vegeta's blunt statement about Cabba being equal/near to Vegeta as gospel?
Despite the fact that it is stated in both manga/anime.

[Koitsukai]

Is there any truth to Champa > Jiren?

I don't believe so, no. Even before the ToP and the limit breaking that took place, Jiren was stated to be above Belmond (and also implied that Belmond beat Beerus once in a physical strength display). IIRC Beerus said he was stronger than Champa (and Vados said she was stronger than Whis).

So Jiren before the ToP was stronger than some Hakaishin, after the ToP if there are still some GoDs stronger than him, probably Champa isn't one of them.

[Hugo Boss]

That just can't work.

Take Goku's fight with Beerus in E42 as an example.

Base Goku there gave a much better fight than his BoG SS3 self ever did. I just can't see him being weaker.

Considering Beerus is much stronger than Super Saiyan Blue and he was fighting on par with Base Goku, his costume probably put quite a hindrance in his performance. So, there is really nothing to take from that.

I don't know man.

Whis even says Beerus was excited to fight but he will be fighting someone weaker than a guy he 2 shotted in BoG.

This will also mean that Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks from the Boo arc would on shot RoF FF Freeza. That can't be right.

Beerus was excited because he is always bored for being so strong there isn’t anyone in the world able to give him a proper fight. Fighting with that handicap made things a little interesting for him. You can’t compare that with a fight he doesn’t have a handicap. Even Super Saiyan Blue vs. Golden Freeza is nuisance for him.

I’m not saying Gohan and Gotenks would easily defeat Freeza in those circumstances, but I don’t think Freeza could win without using his golden form.

[ZombieVito]

Beerus was excited because he is always bored for being so strong there isn’t anyone in the world able to give him a proper fight. Fighting with that handicap made things a little interesting for him. You can’t compare that with a fight he doesn’t have a handicap. Even Super Saiyan Blue vs. Golden Freeza is nuisance for him.

I’m not saying Gohan and Gotenks would easily defeat Freeza in those circumstances, but I don’t think Freeza could win without using his golden form.

Interesting.

I do wonder what others think of this.

[Thani]

I kinda agree. Commeson Vegeta whooping SSj3 Gotenks was pretty iffy at the time, very DBGT-like in terms of power escalation. Either Gotenks having gotten way weaker (didn't Vegeta mention they were slacking off on their training?) or chalking it up to filler weirdness works for me.

RoF is definitely weird since it jumbles the power structure - base Goku and Vegeta were definitely the strongest of the Z Fighters at that point, but for them to get caught up so fast by the likes of Gohan and Piccolo sounds a little farfetch'd if the power creep was supposed to be this massive. Not even mentioning Ultimate Gohan being seen as relevant by Piccolo in the ToP.

So yeah, I can get behind their boosts being not that massive, and chalk it up to pretty much everyone else actually getting weaker. Narratively speaking, we don't need the numbers to be so high for the story to work.

[Kataphrut]

I think it's safe to say there was a subtle retcon to the power-scaling in the later half of Super. Resurrection F and Universe 6 implied that Goku and Vegeta in their base forms were well above anyone else who was relevant in Z. The last time we saw it happen was SS3 Gotenks vs Copy Vegeta and there are numerous ways to handwave that- filler, Gotenks slacking off, etc.

That led straight into Future Trunks, where SS2 Trunks was expected to be somewhat relevant, if still weaker compared to SSB Goku, Vegeta, SSR Black and Zamasu. Then from that you have the Tournament of Power where Ultimate Gohan with his Buu power restored was able to match Goku, all the characters performing well and so on.

Basically, I think they realised that shooting Goku and Vegeta way above everyone else so early in the series was a bad idea and dialled it back once the story started calling for older characters to be relevant. They're still the strongest, but the gaps aren't as huge. Personally, I think it was for the best. The series gained nothing by putting Goku and Vegeta a billion miles ahead of everyone else in RoF, and that root belief is the cause of a lot of issues with the scaling later in the show.

[Koitsukai]

I think it's safe to say there was a subtle retcon to the power-scaling in the later half of Super. Resurrection F and Universe 6 implied that Goku and Vegeta in their base forms were well above anyone else who was relevant in Z. The last time we saw it happen was SS3 Gotenks vs Copy Vegeta and there are numerous ways to handwave that- filler, Gotenks slacking off, etc.

That led straight into Future Trunks, where SS2 Trunks was expected to be somewhat relevant, if still weaker compared to SSB Goku, Vegeta, SSR Black and Zamasu. Then from that you have the Tournament of Power where Ultimate Gohan with his Buu power restored was able to match Goku, all the characters performing well and so on.

Basically, I think they realised that shooting Goku and Vegeta way above everyone else so early in the series was a bad idea and dialled it back once the story started calling for older characters to be relevant. They're still the strongest, but the gaps aren't as huge. Personally, I think it was for the best. The series gained nothing by putting Goku and Vegeta a billion miles ahead of everyone else in RoF, and that root belief is the cause of a lot of issues with the scaling later in the show.

I agree, I believe it was Toriyama's fault when he made Base Goku face FF Freeza who in his 1st form "killed" SS Gohan, Base Goku was over 200x stronger than slacker SS Gohan. He really wanted to convey just how strong Golden Freeza was.
I guess we rationalized it with Gohan becoming weaker like never before in lesser time than ever and with the beyond god base thing, even XV had a RoF base Goku, but then that was dropped by the U6 tournament when they starting using SS again against weak characters and Blue for the boss of the arc.

They could explain it all by saying they got a temporary boost in their base due to unlocking godly powers or something like that, but it may not even work because after the U6 Tournament, Copy Vegeta was like a katchin wall for SS3 Gotenks.

[ankokudaishogun]

Given the original plan was for them to make only movies, the idea of "Base Goku is now equal to God Goku, and Blue it's his SS form" made sense given only Goku and Vegeta would have been relevant to God-class enemies and the other characters could easily have their scraps of screen-time fighting small fries.

They fucked up by not correcting well once it became a series, with the other characters having to get a lot of screen time.

Currently, the manga is quite explicit on Base Goku&Vegeta being mostly "normal" and no God Class(or even just ultra-powerful)

[ZombieVito]

I kinda agree. Commeson Vegeta whooping SSj3 Gotenks was pretty iffy at the time, very DBGT-like in terms of power escalation. Either Gotenks having gotten way weaker (didn't Vegeta mention they were slacking off on their training?) or chalking it up to filler weirdness works for me.

RoF is definitely weird since it jumbles the power structure - base Goku and Vegeta were definitely the strongest of the Z Fighters at that point, but for them to get caught up so fast by the likes of Gohan and Piccolo sounds a little farfetch'd if the power creep was supposed to be this massive. Not even mentioning Ultimate Gohan being seen as relevant by Piccolo in the ToP.

So yeah, I can get behind their boosts being not that massive, and chalk it up to pretty much everyone else actually getting weaker. Narratively speaking, we don't need the numbers to be so high for the story to work.

The only thing that screws this up for me is Freeza.

If his final form is below Good Boo then that will make the boost from his first form very tiny, which doesn't match his transformation scene at all. Everyone is pretty much shocked at him yet he doesn't even surpass Boo.

Gotenks also getting comically so weak that he can't even beat a SS2 Boo arc fighter is just sad.

[RandomGuy96]

In a reasonable world, the "base Goku is universe-tier and solos Z" talk should have died around the time Trunks was explicitly stated as equal to Goku in the same form about a year after having the fight of his life with Dabra. If not even earlier, with Piccolo vs Frost.

[Desassina]

Rule of thumb: watch the context of their fights. Has Goku used Super Saiyan forms lower than Blue when fighting in base? Should the answer be no, then he's probably in a God's level, full of energy and waiting for the urge to transform, so that when he does, he's a Super Saiyan Blue. Otherwise, in case he used Super Saiyan 2 and 3, his regular looking form was just in a mortal realm. The same thing is true for Super Saiyan: should they transform into the God form, then the former is at full power, otherwise in a God-like state prior to Blue.

Trunks might just be closer to the Majin Boo arc level, hence why Super Saiyan 3 Goku dealt with him or was evenly matched, depending on the medium, by Super Saiyan 2 Trunks, but those forms are limited by their lower strength and stamina. Super Saiyan and base have more potential to increase as their natural looking forms, the former due to the Cell Games' training that allowed Goku and Gohan to increase from vanilla state, surpass the grades and ascend without compromise. Until someone went "even further beyond..." that is.

[BWri]

I think it's safe to say there was a subtle retcon to the power-scaling in the later half of Super. Resurrection F and Universe 6 implied that Goku and Vegeta in their base forms were well above anyone else who was relevant in Z. The last time we saw it happen was SS3 Gotenks vs Copy Vegeta and there are numerous ways to handwave that- filler, Gotenks slacking off, etc.

That led straight into Future Trunks, where SS2 Trunks was expected to be somewhat relevant, if still weaker compared to SSB Goku, Vegeta, SSR Black and Zamasu. Then from that you have the Tournament of Power where Ultimate Gohan with his Buu power restored was able to match Goku, all the characters performing well and so on.

Basically, I think they realised that shooting Goku and Vegeta way above everyone else so early in the series was a bad idea and dialled it back once the story started calling for older characters to be relevant. They're still the strongest, but the gaps aren't as huge. Personally, I think it was for the best. The series gained nothing by putting Goku and Vegeta a billion miles ahead of everyone else in RoF, and that root belief is the cause of a lot of issues with the scaling later in the show.

Yup! I wrote this on a post back in March and have been feeling it for a few years now. Let me know what you think:
"Super is operating on a different set of rules than DB or DBZ. Characters that are unprepared ("off-guard") can be killed or injured by slightly augmented conventional means while Kid Goku in DB could tank bullets to the face even without ki. The power scale has likely been shrank down to allow weaker fighters ways to trouble stronger fighters. Honestly, its a change for the better and the anime has more or less been consistent with it.

DBZ: Roshi (Saiyan arc) = 1 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Perfect Cell (Cell Games) = 1,000,000,000
DBS: Roshi (Saiyan arc) = 1 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Perfect Cell (Cell Games) = 1,000

1 damage from Roshi to Perfect Cell in DBS hits harder than 1 damage from Roshi to Perfect Cell in DBZ. It's still a theory of mine at this point, but I've witnessed this enough in Super that I'm convinced."

[wolflonnie]

I think it's safe to say there was a subtle retcon to the power-scaling in the later half of Super. Resurrection F and Universe 6 implied that Goku and Vegeta in their base forms were well above anyone else who was relevant in Z. The last time we saw it happen was SS3 Gotenks vs Copy Vegeta and there are numerous ways to handwave that- filler, Gotenks slacking off, etc.

That led straight into Future Trunks, where SS2 Trunks was expected to be somewhat relevant, if still weaker compared to SSB Goku, Vegeta, SSR Black and Zamasu. Then from that you have the Tournament of Power where Ultimate Gohan with his Buu power restored was able to match Goku, all the characters performing well and so on.

Basically, I think they realised that shooting Goku and Vegeta way above everyone else so early in the series was a bad idea and dialled it back once the story started calling for older characters to be relevant. They're still the strongest, but the gaps aren't as huge. Personally, I think it was for the best. The series gained nothing by putting Goku and Vegeta a billion miles ahead of everyone else in RoF, and that root belief is the cause of a lot of issues with the scaling later in the show.

Yup! I wrote this on a post back in March and have been feeling it for a few years now. Let me know what you think:
"Super is operating on a different set of rules than DB or DBZ. Characters that are unprepared ("off-guard") can be killed or injured by slightly augmented conventional means while Kid Goku in DB could tank bullets to the face even without ki. The power scale has likely been shrank down to allow weaker fighters ways to trouble stronger fighters. Honestly, its a change for the better and the anime has more or less been consistent with it.

DBZ: Roshi (Saiyan arc) = 1 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Perfect Cell (Cell Games) = 1,000,000,000
DBS: Roshi (Saiyan arc) = 1 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Perfect Cell (Cell Games) = 1,000

1 damage from Roshi to Perfect Cell in DBS hits harder than 1 damage from Roshi to Perfect Cell in DBZ. It's still a theory of mine at this point, but I've witnessed this enough in Super that I'm convinced."

While I don't like this line of thought, I fully agree with it. This has been my impression ever since DBS started.
I also think that base saiyans may be able to contend with Blue or above tiers as long as they're skilled enough or something like that.

[Zamasu55]

I know it isn't canon but seeing a stronger version of Merged Zamasu unable to one-shot the likes of exhausted Base Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, Piccolo and 17 is bad.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I know it isn't canon but seeing a stronger version of Merged Zamasu unable to one-shot the likes of exhausted Base Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, Piccolo and 17 is bad.

Nah, it doesn't really matter. Goku and Co got stronger too, but that's not my point. What I want to say is this:

An example. You are several times more powerful than the top state of your enemy (SSJB in this instance). Your enemy is before you in his weakest level and desperately tries to defeat you, although it is impossible. Will you flick them off, or will you play with them and go along? Besides, it isn't like Neo Zamasu didn't one shot everyone. Goku was punching the air lol.

In the end, all punches deliver some force. It was the reason why Goku and Vegeta fought in Base weakened, against 100%/FP Jiren and he still had to block and deliver back.

So in this instance it is entirely justified imo (as in most cases actually, but that's a different discussion).

[ZombieVito]

I know it isn't canon but seeing a stronger version of Merged Zamasu unable to one-shot the likes of exhausted Base Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, Piccolo and 17 is bad.

He was clearly toying with them.

You didnt see him smilling while fighting Goku?

[Zamasu55]

I know it isn't canon but seeing a stronger version of Merged Zamasu unable to one-shot the likes of exhausted Base Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, Piccolo and 17 is bad.

He was clearly toying with them.

You didnt see him smilling while fighting Goku?

He seemed serious enough against Piccolo and clearly got him with his ki blade... and... nothing.