Zenkai Power

[Hulk10]

Pretty sure that Zenkais are still around they just aren't noticable anymore. I found that the Zenkai was mentioned in the DBS manga. And the Daizenshuu 7 said that the Zenkai boost had become negligible.

[Koitsukai]

In the Buu arc, when Buutenks is trashing Ultimate Gohan and Dende heals him, Buutenks notes that Gohan is back to full health again but his power hasn't grown, so no zenkai for Gohan.

In the Super manga, Black is healed by Zamasu and his power grows to the point he overpowers Blue Vegeta, while Vegeta later eats a senzu but his power does not grow anymore and Trunks concludes Goku and Vegeta have reached their roof zenkai-wise.

Also, we haven't seen much zenkai growth in Super, so it seems like if it's still there, it's untraceable, which would be the same as saying they are no more.

[Hulk10]

In the Buu arc, when Buutenks is trashing Ultimate Gohan and Dende heals him, Buutenks notes that Gohan is back to full health again but his power hasn't grown, so no zenkai for Gohan.

In the Super manga, Black is healed by Zamasu and his power grows to the point he overpowers Blue Vegeta, while Vegeta later eats a senzu but his power does not grow anymore and Trunks concludes Goku and Vegeta have reached their roof zenkai-wise.

Also, we haven't seen much zenkai growth in Super, so it seems like if it's still there, it's untraceable, which would be the same as saying they are no more.

Not necessarily the same as being no more IMO. But the Daizenshuu 7 said something that supports my idea.

[RecolorSaiyan]

"Zenkais" are no long necessary because in modern db, toriyama has saiyans grow mid battle which is even better than having to get beaten to near death and recover fully

[Hulk10]

"Zenkais" are no long necessary because in modern db, toriyama has saiyans grow mid battle which is even better than having to get beaten to near death and recover fully

Yeah that's true. Good point.

[Koitsukai]

In the Buu arc, when Buutenks is trashing Ultimate Gohan and Dende heals him, Buutenks notes that Gohan is back to full health again but his power hasn't grown, so no zenkai for Gohan.

In the Super manga, Black is healed by Zamasu and his power grows to the point he overpowers Blue Vegeta, while Vegeta later eats a senzu but his power does not grow anymore and Trunks concludes Goku and Vegeta have reached their roof zenkai-wise.

Also, we haven't seen much zenkai growth in Super, so it seems like if it's still there, it's untraceable, which would be the same as saying they are no more.

Not necessarily the same as being no more IMO. But the Daizenshuu 7 said something that supports my idea.

Scratch the last comment, it was just my take on it, but the rest is taken directly from the manga, Gohan maxed out his zenkais in Z and Vegeta in Super, with Trunks blatantly saying they already took their bodies to the max.

[Hulk10]

Well they still are gaining power during fights. That is clear. But how can Saiyan's max out if they have limitless potential?

[Koitsukai]

Well they still are gaining power during fights. That is clear.

If you mean the ToP, then I don't think it counts as zenkai, after Jiren blew Vegeta up, he got up and found a new way to surpass his limits and unlocked SSBE. He didn't need healing in order to become more powerful as SSBE and trash Toppo either.
Goku just gets stamina and some ki from Freeza and Vegeta, never a full recovery, he just breaks his shell and becomes more powerful as he goes. To me it felt more like breaking their limits instead of getting a boost after being on the brink of death. A saiyan trait but not the old zenkai we are talking about.

Actually in the anime FT arc, they get stomped by Black one time after another, so they weren't growing stronger after the beatings they were taking, and Vegeta needed to train off-screen to finally surpass Black Rose.

[Hulk10]

Well they still are gaining power during fights. That is clear.

If you mean the ToP, then I don't think it counts as zenkai, after Jiren blew Vegeta up, he got up and found a new way to surpass his limits and unlocked SSBE. He didn't need healing in order to become more powerful as SSBE and trash Toppo either.
Goku just gets stamina and some ki from Freeza and Vegeta, never a full recovery, he just breaks his shell and becomes more powerful as he goes. To me it felt more like breaking their limits instead of getting a boost after being on the brink of death. A saiyan trait but not the old zenkai we are talking about.

Actually in the anime FT arc, they get stomped by Black one time after another, so they weren't growing stronger after the beatings they were taking, and Vegeta needed to train off-screen to finally surpass Black Rose.

yeah I didn't mean to imply it was Zenkai. I was just thinking about how Whis supposed said something about Goku and Vegeta being at their peak in base form and thus not being able to get much stronger base form wise or something like that. Seems nonsense.

[Mister_Popo]

There may not be the spectacular Zenkais from DBZ, but i mean, they keep training and improving, don't they?
I mean post-TOP base or Blue Goku is substantially stronger than U6 arc base or Blue Goku.
At the end of Super, they just had the TOP, but they almost immediately resumed training.
At the beginning of Broly, they are again ... training.
And yet in the anime they haven't really mastered a higher transformation than Blue.

But i agree ... Supers powerlevels with DBZs Zenkais would be overly over the top.

[Hulk10]

They probably would be over the top.

[theherodjl]

DBS Goku & Vegeta have still come a long way power-wise so the Zenkai does evidently exist, its just that the consistency & effect of the Zenkai remains as vague as always.

[SupremeKai25]

In Super it seems like Goku Black is the only one who really has zenkais. He grows stronger through pain, as has often happened throughout the arc. In the manga that's even more blatant, because Black would often let Trunks beat him up to the point of near-death so that Future Zamasu could heal him and kick-off the zenkai boosts.

The other saiyans don't seem to show this capability of growing stronger through pain or in near-death situations. In the Tournament of Power many saiyans (especially Goku) often powered-up after they were beaten but I think that's just inconsistent writing, there's not actually an in-universe reason like with Black.

[ZombieVito]

In Super it seems like Goku Black is the only one who really has zenkais. He grows stronger through pain, as has often happened throughout the arc. In the manga that's even more blatant, because Black would often let Trunks beat him up to the point of near-death so that Future Zamasu could heal him and kick-off the zenkai boosts.

The other saiyans don't seem to show this capability of growing stronger through pain or in near-death situations. In the Tournament of Power many saiyans (especially Goku) often powered-up after they were beaten but I think that's just inconsistent writing, there's not actually an in-universe reason like with Black.

Only reason Black had those zenkai's is because he still hadn't gotten Goku's full power. It's not until E61 that he does and that's why he needs anger to grow stronger in E64.

[SupremeKai25]

In Super it seems like Goku Black is the only one who really has zenkais. He grows stronger through pain, as has often happened throughout the arc. In the manga that's even more blatant, because Black would often let Trunks beat him up to the point of near-death so that Future Zamasu could heal him and kick-off the zenkai boosts.

The other saiyans don't seem to show this capability of growing stronger through pain or in near-death situations. In the Tournament of Power many saiyans (especially Goku) often powered-up after they were beaten but I think that's just inconsistent writing, there's not actually an in-universe reason like with Black.

Only reason Black had those zenkai's is because he still hadn't gotten Goku's full power. It's not until E61 that he does and that's why he needs anger to grow stronger in E64.

When did he unlock Goku's full power in episode 61? I know he gained the Divine Lasso, but I don't recall ever being mentioned that that was how far Goku's body could go.

[Koitsukai]

I disagree with the notion that only through zenkais you can improve yourself

[p-hyvo]

I disagree with the notion that only through zenkais you can improve yourself

As it is now, in dbs we are talking more about adaptation boosts than real zenkais, but anyway the result is the same.
Plus, at least for the anime, they can improve their bases via training still a Lot, that panel from the manga that is upward is valid only for the manga continuity and doesn't apply to the anime.

Still, I heard that toriyama wrote the but saga with in mind the idea that goku couldn't get any stronger from that point. Don't know where this statement is from and I'm still waiting for a confirmation on it, if anyone knows anything about it just tell me. By the way, it is useless to say that gt and super straight out contradicts that thig, making it somehow invalid

[ankokudaishogun]

While only Black has zenkais in Super, it's flat-out explained in the manga that is less "gets a stronger body" and more "the body adapting to Zamasu's soul, resulting Zamasu being able to bring out more and more of Goku's body real power"

though in the anime something similar happens, I believe it's the reverse: it's Zamasu getting more and more in tune with Goku's body the more he fights, which fits with Zamasu being a fighting genius, something it's absent or at least basically ignored in the manga

[Koitsukai]

I disagree with the notion that only through zenkais you can improve yourself

As it is now, in dbs we are talking more about adaptation boosts than real zenkais, but anyway the result is the same.
Plus, at least for the anime, they can improve their bases via training still a Lot, that panel from the manga that is upward is valid only for the manga continuity and doesn't apply to the anime.

Still, I heard that toriyama wrote the but saga with in mind the idea that goku couldn't get any stronger from that point. Don't know where this statement is from and I'm still waiting for a confirmation on it, if anyone knows anything about it just tell me. By the way, it is useless to say that gt and super straight out contradicts that thig, making it somehow invalid

I can't help you with that Toriyama quote but I can say that in the Buu arc, Buutenks implies Ultimate Gohan, not Goku, has no longer room for improvement(zenkai-wise)

[p-hyvo]

I disagree with the notion that only through zenkais you can improve yourself

As it is now, in dbs we are talking more about adaptation boosts than real zenkais, but anyway the result is the same.
Plus, at least for the anime, they can improve their bases via training still a Lot, that panel from the manga that is upward is valid only for the manga continuity and doesn't apply to the anime.

Still, I heard that toriyama wrote the but saga with in mind the idea that goku couldn't get any stronger from that point. Don't know where this statement is from and I'm still waiting for a confirmation on it, if anyone knows anything about it just tell me. By the way, it is useless to say that gt and super straight out contradicts that thig, making it somehow invalid

I can't help you with that Toriyama quote but I can say that in the Buu arc, Buutenks implies Ultimate Gohan, not Goku, has no longer room for improvement(zenkai-wise)

I knew about gohan, but the reason of that is the mystic form maxing him out. Not only zenkais, gohan couldn't count on rageboosts too in that fragment .
The secret for gohan to get zenkais is to train in base/ssj, if he's in the mystic state he can't get any.