funrush wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:20 pm
Going super serious/gritty with Dragon Ball is the exact opposite of what they should do. Especially since the series itself doesn't get serious until the King Piccolo arc.
Also serious/gritty =/= quality. Dark Knight and Joker are fantastic gritty films. Man of Steel ESPECIALLY BvS comes off like crappy high school fan-fiction a lot of the time, with tons of writing inconsistencies and generally just bleh. I don't know whose idea it was to make Batman an idiot, when his whole power is intelligence? He never even considers Superman might have a mom? Or that Luther is punking him? And he nonchalantly throws Batarangs around as Bruce Wayne?
I propose a Harry Potter approach. The first couple of movies are lighthearted action comedies, and then they get more serious as they approach Z content. The MCU comedy/action hybrid would be perfect for the first couple films, Goku being the center of a fish-out-of-water comedy, with really great action scenes that anchor the films in their source material. You can get through all the source material of the manga in about 7 films if you compress enough.
Agreed.
Dragon Ball shouldn't be a pointless, dready, deconstructionist Zack Snyder mess, and much as I don't usually like to yuck peoples' yum... Zack Snyder would give us a movie even worse than Dragon Ball evolution. It'd be the Dragon Ball equivalent of the Michael Bay TMNT films. It'd be utter shit, it would have no interest in being anything to do with what anyone who actually likes Dragon Ball would know to be Dragon Ball, and in general, I think any ideas of a Dragon Ball movie being a Snyder-esque "dark and gritty" thing are the childish ramblings of an edgelord teenager who doesn't actually know what Dragon Ball is, or indeed what makes a good movie.
Honestly... I don't think Zack Snyder is a good filmmaker, really. He's a pretty fantastic DP, but I wouldn't go further than that, really. So, the ridiculous "zack snyder would do the perfect dbz movie!!" nonsense I'm sure we've all seen a lot of online... I have no patience for it, to be honest. See also: Everything Kunzait said about this just now as I was writing this post. (and hey, Kunzait, if you're reading this bit; great post! I decided not to quote that bit in since I don't have much to say and this post is already long enough as-is!)
So, yes, I agree with you entirely.
Also, I think a Harry Potter comparison is apt -- different directors would likely be involved from film to film across a project this large, and while they would ultimately form a cohesive whole, each director should be allowed their own voice, and there should be focus on each film being the best possible version of itself, while any ideas of trying too hard to "build a franchise" or anything else that various failed "cinematic universes" have relied on should be tossed into the sea.
And much like the Harry Potter films, no director should be afraid to decide to do something differently from how the last one did things. The reason the third Harry Potter film is the best is because Alfonso Cuarón was allowed the freedom to do whatever he pleased with the film, basically. He wasn't constrained by shooting the film in a way that was similar to Columbus, he wasn't constrained by continuing to do the very rigid, literal adaptation approach from the two prior films... He did his own thing with it. And the next couple of directors were similarly allowed to do their own thing.
funrush wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:20 pm
Dragon Ball Trilogy
[...]
DBZ Quadrilogy
One criticism: I would not separate them with any kind of "Dragon Ball" vs "Z" distinction. I would personally just call them all "Dragon Ball", with a subtitle. I dunno if it was in this thread or a private conversation with someone else, but I previously came up with an idea that I'd like to see them named something like "Dragon Ball: The Tale of [thing]". Somewhat inspired by the Viz manga's way of saying "Tale #190" as the chapter numbering instead of "Chapter #190". Just has a fun sound to it that I like.
Anyway, I'm rambling. Point is: Dragon Ball and Z aren't two separate stories, there's no separation there that makes any kind of sense unless you're going into this with the preconceived idea that there is a separation. The only thing that sets them apart is a timeskip, of which there are several in the story, so... Just seems silly to call that a line when the "Z" era is just as connected to the "Pre-Z" instalments as those "Pre-Z" instalments themselves. Hell, the cyborgs storyline is literally a sequel to the Red Ribbon storyline in terms of its setup and the motivations behind it.
So, just call them seven movies that form one saga between them all. That's what I say.
Kunzait_83 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:18 am
[Marvel character talk]
Fair enough. I think the point I was generally making does still stand, even if I could have phrased it better, but I do very much appreciate the history lesson, and this is something I should probably look into more. Thank you.
Thanks, man.
Kunzait_83 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:18 am
I was gonna say: while its not outside the realm of believability that Disney MIGHT try to go for this, there's literally ZERO tangible substance to hang this on other than a random gossip/rumor site saying "Hey, I heard this from a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy...!"
The fact that something
that vague, thin, and insubstantial alone dragged this out to 14 pages is kind of a (sad) telling of how BEYOND desperate/thirsty this fanbase still is for a big budget studio Dragon Ball film: which in essence, basically translates for most into "public validation" for their pet property, as well as the whole sports-like "My team's winning!" mentality that people bring to these corporatized geek franchises and how well they do financially and so on.
Fair.
I will say, having read what I've read of this thread so far (certainly not all of it; I haven't really had the time to keep up with every post), it does seem that people are fairly clear on this not being any kind of reputable news, and most of this talk is hypothetical "Man, wouldn't it be cool if this was real, though?"... Which I think's kinda nice? As you say, this fandom really wants such a movie... I've made no secret of wanting such a movie, if done right... WeGotThisCovered and other such clickbait rumour-mill lies/hearsay are awful, but even though it makes for a poor starting point, I'm digging the actual conversation going on here.
Kunzait_83 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:18 am
Agreed. This is a relatively rare case where business (i.e. pandering to the Chinese market) actually has a side-benefit of having a positive impact on (at least one specific portion of) the creative-end for a change: in this case, we actually get Asian actors to play our gang of mystical martial artists borrowed from Chinese myths and legends, instead of Justin Chatwin as the whitest of all Gokus this side of Schemmel's "Ally to Good!" speech.
It'd be a thousand times even
more promising if they also went and got seasoned Hong Kong stuntmen and fight choreographers to handle the actual martial arts end of this (including how they're blocked, shot, and edited), but I'm hardly holding my breath on that.
Still though, as sad as it is that we even have to acknowledge this in 2019, Chinese actors getting tapped to play characters rooted in Chinese kung fu fairytales would certainly be more than welcome. God knows Hong Kong has more than PLENTY of phenomenally talented actors and martial arts stunt performers that could more than handily do many of these roles justice.
Agreed.
Kunzait_83 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:18 am
To the bolded portion: I'm fairly sure that (given Disney's general track record) that'd basically be the BEST case scenario for this. I don't really foresee something in anyway above that basic appraisal (some trappings of DB, some of the feel, but otherwise a fairly generic, bland summer blockbuster) in store for this kind of project. Largely because that's basically BEEN the very absolute best that they've been putting out there with regards to Marvel and Star Wars and the like.
And this is once again assuming of course that its actually in the pipeline and this isn't just a rumor website doing what a rumor site dies: spreading a rumor.
I still stand by my long-standing view that, while the Marvel philosophy so far has basically been "Let's just make some really solid blockbusters that have likeable characters, entertaining stars, nice visuals, and some poigniant stuff going on under the surface", that is ultimately fine. Every era of... Well, movies in this case, but all media, really... Every era has its vanilla flavour. Right now, that vanilla flavour is basically Marvel movies. And as far as vanilla flavours go... They're generally pretty cleverly-written, they're generally quite positive, they've not really got any toxic messages for children, they're movies we can all enjoy...
They're not challenging movies generally, sure. There's a reason Scorsese isn't interested in seeing these movies, and much as I consider his remarks regarding them being "Not cinema" to be childish, reductionist nonsense, the underlying point that they're not... For lack of a better term, challenging auteur stuff like Apocalypse Now or The Shining or whatever, is valid. Because ultimately, the Marvel movies are just a series of fun movies that the pop culture of 2019 can all enjoy together. They're inoffensive, perfectly entertaining movies that we can escape to and experience some joy in these dark times, and as far as such movies go, I think they're utterly perfect at doing that, so... Even if that's not a type of movie you're interested in (which is totally fair!!), they aren't bad movies. They do what they set out to do,
perfectly.
And honestly, this has always kinda been how I've seen Dragon Ball working as movies too, in a way? Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see something weirder, say if Edgar Wright co-directed with an experienced Hong Kong kung-fu director to make something completely different from anything we've seen before, I'd be dancing naked in the streets with the joy this would give me.
But ultimately, like the Marvel movies, Dragon Ball is... Well, it's shounen entertainment media.
Toriyama wrote Dragon Ball to entertain 8-year-olds, much like how George Lucas did Star Wars to entertain 8-year-olds... There are grander intentions, there's a lot of nuance to the details and influences of all this, but ultimately, the reason Dragon Ball hits so big is because basically everyone can enjoy it, it's very positive on the whole, largely free of anything toxic or otherwise unpleasant being depicted in any positive light (let's not dwell on this, but even the Roshi antics that haven't aged well do ultimately consider these antics bad, and he gets comeuppance for them every time), the stories ultimately get most of their depth, not from the narratives themselves, but from the characters' motivations (Namek arc is basically a fairly simple three-way cat and mouse game between the Freeza forces, Kuririrn&Gohan&Bulma, and Vegeta. It's a very simple plot if you want to really break it down. And it works beautifully
because of that; the characters all shine brilliantly, and their motivations and interactions are what make it good manga, and indeed good TV).
And yeah, you mention Star Wars... I would argue Last Jedi was quite a challenging approach to this, but that ultimately Star Wars is fundamentally flavoured like the modern vanilla movie. The original Star Wars in '77 was groundbreaking, but everything that Star Wars was, has become a core ingredient of what has become the modern vanilla flavour for movies. So, naturally, modern Star Wars ends up feeling a bit vanilla, because it's a new iteration on one of the core founders of the modern vanilla flavour. Force Awakens moreso than the others, because it was deliberately trying to throw us back with nostalgia after a lot of the lost goodwill from the prequels, but ultimatly even Last Jedi, the most challenging, weird, different, and dark movie in the Star Wars franchise, is still ultimately doing that only in the details, while the overall framework of the film is still basically just a really solid blockbuster sci-fi/fantasy action movie. It's still a Star Wars movie.
So, yes, the new Star Wars movies are somewhat vanilla for today. But go back and watch the original Star Wars; if pop culture had somehow moved on exactly as it did without Star Wars in '77, but they released that movie as-is today, it would've hit big, because it still is a really solid movie we can all enjoy that fits in snugly with what people want out of a modern solid, escapist sci-fi/fantasy blockbuster.
...
Anyway, the point I'm rambling around and failing to really deliver on is this: I think if Disney do this, chances are we'll get something that's very much flavoured similar to the vanilla of our current era. But I don't think that'd give us a bad Dragon Ball movie. The core of Dragon Ball would likely be in there: The characters we adore, the world we love, the comedy action adventure we all want to see given the big screen treatment... It'd all be there. And while it wouldn't be some Scorsese-approved meditation on what it means to be human, I think it'd still be a fun movie we could all share in the joy of. Just like the recent Broly movie, or the first and last Z movies, or the OG DB movies... I think as far as Dragon Ball movies go, Disney would give us another solid entry with a lot of fun performances and memorable visuals.
It would be nice to get something more challenging, but ultimately if we do get another fairly standard blockbuster out of it, it would still be fairly true to Dragon Ball's roots, even if something better is posible if Disney were willing to take more risks.
Kunzait_83 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:49 pm
Tonality in film is nowhere even VAGUELY as binary and rigid as the whole tiresome "DC movies versus Marvel movies" debates online reductively paints it as. Some of the darkest films out there are filled to the brim with laugh out loud hysterical humor and balance gut-check drama and silly whimsy to incredible degrees. i.e. Fargo, American Psycho, Trainspotting, Dr. Strangelove, Man Bites Dog, Brazil, and almost anything else directed by guys like Terry Gilliam or Jean-Pierre Jeunet.
Reducing tone in film down to a tug-of-war between either "Grimdark, colorless self-seriousness" versus "Featherweight, Disney-approved family comedy." is among the dumbest and most migraine-inducing of all the myriad of dumb, migraine-inducing things to come about from the 2000s and 2010s superhero film glut: to say nothing of being WILDLY lacking in thuddingly basic perspective of even the most BASELINE history of what movies have achieved even in RECENT years (I just saw the new Bong Joon-ho movie Parasite recently, and that's a movie that will have you in stitches laughing while simultaneously having your stomach bound in a knot from both tension and sadness).
Your entire post on this is great, but I'd like to particularly draw attention to this and say -- THANK YOU. Tone is far more complex than any kind of idea of "grimdark" vs "light and goofy".
Hell, probably the most intense movie I've ever seen, The Shining, actually has a lot of really nice, wholesome scenes. Scatman Crothers basically exhudes a joyful atmosphere, and while there's the tension of "How is this guy reading the kid's mind?", he pretty quickly has a nice sit down with Danny, shares a story about he and his grandmother, and generally establishes himself as a positive figure... And then of cousre, the scene pivots into more intense territory as they talk about room 237... There's a tone shift...
And going to the source material and its adjacent work, while I have yet to really dig into King's books, it's quite well-talked-about that a hallmark of his style is that while he does instil pants-shitting terror, a large portion of his writing is totally non-scary stuff (unless you find geography scary, which... Fair enough). Usually it's essentially forming a background for the terrifying stuff to take place, such as describing various aspects of Derry, the town in It, but the tone is different in these parts than the terror one would associate with a horror writer like King. Naturally, this is a book, not a film, but... Yeah. Tone is not a singular thing in a film, or any other media for that matter. I think any film that had a singular, static tone would get tiring pretty fast.
KBABZ wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:06 ama bland and nothing score,
This is something that has always bothered me, and I do have some theories on it, if anyone's interested...
I think a lot of the problems with modern superhero scoring is the fact no composers are kept on longer than one movie. No themes are given time to be established beyond one movie, as each new composer throws out the work of the others to just focus on scoring their one movie on its own.
You see this with the Harry Potter movies; first two movies are John Williams putting in excellent work using his masterful interweaving of themes, and even when he changes up his score a lot for the third film's different feel, it still ends up holding together, feeling like a logical progression, and of course him being able to establish the "Toil and trouble" theme with the choir at the beginning helps strengthen that theme throughout the film... Come the next film, he's been replaced by Patrick Doyle (apparently director Mike Newell didn't think John Williams could do a dark enough, epic enough tone...
), all but Hedwig's theme have been thrown out... A new set of themes are established for everything, solid themes, they weave well throughout the film, it's a shame to lose Williams, but honestly Doyle did do good work... Then he gets thrown out, along with all his themes, for Nicholas Hooper in the next film (because David Yates wanted to work with Hooper, who he'd worked with before), who actually ends up throwing out most of his own themes for the one after that... And then the guy working on the last two films didn't really use any themes, IIRC there's talk of him deliberately avoiding using memorable themes outside of the very beginning and very end (he even brings back a few John Williams themes at the end) to instil a hopeless, oppressive atmosphere... Though even at that, there are musical identities for certain characters, most of which ended up getting thrown out and replaced with entirely different identities for part 2...
Anyway, this all ends up meaning that once you get past the third film, the scoring of these films just becomes a mess that you largely forget the intricacies of.
So, there's a lot of great stuff in a lot of these scores, but they don't tend to tie together between each-other, and in the end, a lot of the "main themes" end up forgotten because they simply don't pop up more than once or twice in the entire chronology of 23-odd movies... And unless you rewatch one given movie a bunch of times and/or listen to the score repeatedly on its own, you just don't get a sense of it. And this is all compounded by the general given direction for a certain style in modern blockbusters, so we end up with certain composers giving particularly distinct work on these films (I think Alan Silvestri's work has been rather excellent, and Michael Giaccino is a long-standing favourite of mine), and that work is often overlooked because they only work on two or three of the, again, 23-odd films in the Marvel franchise... Giaccino has made his work stand out well in the Star Trek movies, and Alan Silvestri at least scored all the Avengers movies as well as Captain America 2 and 3... But a lot of modern blockbusters, particularly superhero films, do end up in this rather awkward rut in terms of their scores. And it is a real shame, especially given the talent behind these movies.
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.