Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

There's no such thing. The DBS Anime counts more than the manga, sorry.

That's headcanon. Shueisha officially has only the manga and movies as canonical sequels to Toriyama's DB manga.

Edit: It doesn't matter anyway. As that is not a good example of a Genki Dama outdoing fusion.
Trunks attacks was "like" a Genki but not one. We simply have no explanation on it's properties.

The anime was said to be the main product so he's right.

Main product doesn't mean canoncial. The manga and movies are only officially canoncial to Toriyama's DB.Stated by Shueisha.

DBSuper manga has been consistently burying this notion that battle power always wins fights that I don’t understand why some people still insist on it.

That's true. In the manga is said that if you have an higher power level you can counter/be immune to haxes

Tell that to Moro.

Moro became stronger than Blue Goku/Vegeta after he absorbed Planet Zoom.

So yes, Moro too is following Toriyama's continued battle power > all plot formula.

[Hugo Boss]

Moro became stronger than Blue Goku/Vegeta after he absorbed Planet Zoom.

So yes, Moro too is following Toriyama's continued battle power > all plot formula.

If you are keeping up with the recent chapter you saw that Gohan was defeated by the 73 guy, who was weaker and absorbed his power, turning the tables on him. So, one can make even Jiren fight this guy that the result would be the same. I don’t think the plot is really going in the direction you say, Goku and Vegeta will probably learn gimmicks instead of increasing battle power.

[Miracles]

Moro became stronger than Blue Goku/Vegeta after he absorbed Planet Zoom.

So yes, Moro too is following Toriyama's continued battle power > all plot formula.

If you are keeping up with the recent chapter you saw that Gohan was defeated by the 73 guy, who was weaker and absorbed his power, turning the tables on him. So, one can make even Jiren fight this guy that the result would be the same. I don’t think the plot is really going in the direction you say, Goku and Vegeta will probably learn gimmicks instead of increasing battle power.

It's both actually. 7-3 took Gohan's Ki [battle power] made it his own to strengthen his own battle power. The plot has Goku and Vegeta learn techniques to counter Moro's energy absorption. All for the purpose of bringing Moro back to Goku and Vegeta's traditional way of fighting. Hence why moro himself is now absorbing the energy of planets and growing battle power. It will defintly come down to fists and kicks again against Moro.

[Hulk10]

At least in the anime Goku and Vegeta can still increase their base form's strengths.

[Soldierofficial]

At least in the anime Goku and Vegeta can still increase their base form's strengths.

Based on what?

[Hulk10]

At least in the anime Goku and Vegeta can still increase their base form's strengths.

Based on what?

Everything in the show suggests that. Whis never said they couldn't in the anime. Also during the tournament of power Goku and Vegeta gained strength in base form during the tournament.

[ankokudaishogun]

There is a misconception.

"Battle Power Level" is the result of "Physical Ability of the Body" multiplied by "Ki Manipulation through skill, techniques and experience"

"Zenkai" causes an increment in "Physical Ability of the Body".
By the Universe-6 Tournament, Goku and Vegeta capped it, and therefore don't get any increment in "Physical Ability of the Body" when recovering from great damage.

That doesn't mean Goku and Vegeta cannot get stronger in their "Base, non-transformed" form: it's just that they have to improve their "Ki Manipulation through skill, techniques and experience"

[Hulk10]

There is a misconception.

"Battle Power Level" is the result of "Physical Ability of the Body" multiplied by "Ki Manipulation through skill, techniques and experience"

"Zenkai" causes an increment in "Physical Ability of the Body".
By the Universe-6 Tournament, Goku and Vegeta capped it, and therefore don't get any increment in "Physical Ability of the Body" when recovering from great damage.

That doesn't mean Goku and Vegeta cannot get stronger in their "Base, non-transformed" form: it's just that they have to improve their "Ki Manipulation through skill, techniques and experience"

What is a misconception?

[Soldierofficial]

At least in the anime Goku and Vegeta can still increase their base form's strengths.

Based on what?

Everything in the show suggests that. Whis never said they couldn't in the anime. Also during the tournament of power Goku and Vegeta gained strength in base form during the tournament.

Nothing in the show suggests that, the reason why SSJ forms exist is because each form has a limit, that's what they mean by surpass the SSJ wall when they obtained SSJ2, the whole point of the transformations is to surpass their limits, limits that they have in each form, thats how it works, the Saiyans reach the SSJ when they cannot become stronger in their base form, as Vegeta explained before defeating Android 19.

[Hulk10]

Based on what?

Everything in the show suggests that. Whis never said they couldn't in the anime. Also during the tournament of power Goku and Vegeta gained strength in base form during the tournament.

Nothing in the show suggests that, the reason why SSJ forms exist is because each form has a limit, that's what they mean by surpass the SSJ wall when they obtained SSJ2, the whole point of the transformations is to surpass their limits, limits that they have in each form, thats how it works, the Saiyans reach the SSJ when they cannot become stronger in their base form, as Vegeta explained before defeating Android 19.

Vegeta didn't say that they couldn't get any stronger in base form in Kai and Kai is the one I follow. And even after they gain the forms, they can still gain power in their normal ones too. Goku proved that in the battle with Frieza in Super.

[Miracles]

In BoG, all of Goku's forms were boosted when he absorbed SSJG [Stated by Beerus].
However, Goku's base/SSJ isn't god, since his Ki can be sensed other than being in Red and Blue.

In the anime and manga Whis stated training in their base will improve their overall power. Which helps them grow faster.
So Hulk10 is right. Base always could always be increased.

[Hulk10]

In BoG, all of Goku's forms were boosted when he absorbed SSJG [Stated by Beerus].
However, Goku's base/SSJ isn't god, since his Ki can be sensed other than being in Red and Blue.

In the anime and manga Whis stated training in their base will improve their overall power. Which helps them grow faster.
So Hulk10 is right. Base always could always be increased.

Thank you.

[Soldierofficial]

Vegeta didn't say that they couldn't get any stronger in base form in Kai and Kai is the one I follow. And even after they gain the forms, they can still gain power in their normal ones too.

Kai is not a canon, the original manga is.

Chapter: 307 (DBZ 113), P8.2-3
Vegeta: “He’s not the same Kakarot as before…S-seems he’s finally overcome the wall of his limits…Is he a Super Saiyan…!?”

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P11.1-5
Kuririn: “Th-that’s impossible…! Wh-why can he become a Super Saiyan…?! Don’t you have to have a tranquil heart to become one…!?”
Vegeta: “I was tranquil…Tranquil and pure…Pure evil, that is…I wished to get strong just by training earnestly…And so I went through stupendous training over and over again…Eventually, I realized my limits…Through my anger towards myself, I suddenly awakened…into a Super Saiyan!”

Goku proved that in the battle with Frieza in Super.

Thats irrelevant since its after absorbing the SSG's strength.

[Hulk10]

Vegeta didn't say that they couldn't get any stronger in base form in Kai and Kai is the one I follow. And even after they gain the forms, they can still gain power in their normal ones too.

Kai is not a canon, the original manga is.

Chapter: 307 (DBZ 113), P8.2-3
Vegeta: “He’s not the same Kakarot as before…S-seems he’s finally overcome the wall of his limits…Is he a Super Saiyan…!?”

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P11.1-5
Kuririn: “Th-that’s impossible…! Wh-why can he become a Super Saiyan…?! Don’t you have to have a tranquil heart to become one…!?”
Vegeta: “I was tranquil…Tranquil and pure…Pure evil, that is…I wished to get strong just by training earnestly…And so I went through stupendous training over and over again…Eventually, I realized my limits…Through my anger towards myself, I suddenly awakened…into a Super Saiyan!”

Goku proved that in the battle with Frieza in Super.

Thats irrelevant since its after absorbing the SSG's strength.

Kai is more canon than the original DBZ anime. Also the Super reference is not irrelevant either. You're welcome to think that if you like.

[Hugo Boss]

DBSuper doesn’t follow that RoF plot point of God-like base form. It went back to the linear Base-SS-SS2-SS3-SSGod-SSBlue evolution line.

[Hulk10]

True but he still was strong enough to fight with Normal Form Frieza.

[Soldierofficial]

Vegeta didn't say that they couldn't get any stronger in base form in Kai and Kai is the one I follow. And even after they gain the forms, they can still gain power in their normal ones too.

Kai is not a canon, the original manga is.

Chapter: 307 (DBZ 113), P8.2-3
Vegeta: “He’s not the same Kakarot as before…S-seems he’s finally overcome the wall of his limits…Is he a Super Saiyan…!?”

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P11.1-5
Kuririn: “Th-that’s impossible…! Wh-why can he become a Super Saiyan…?! Don’t you have to have a tranquil heart to become one…!?”
Vegeta: “I was tranquil…Tranquil and pure…Pure evil, that is…I wished to get strong just by training earnestly…And so I went through stupendous training over and over again…Eventually, I realized my limits…Through my anger towards myself, I suddenly awakened…into a Super Saiyan!”

Goku proved that in the battle with Frieza in Super.

Thats irrelevant since its after absorbing the SSG's strength.

Kai is more canon than the original DBZ anime. Also the Super reference is not irrelevant either. You're welcome to think that if you like.

DB Kai is not more canon than DBZ, both are adaptations of the original manga, which is the only canon.

Its stated multiple times that the base form has a limit and that they need to transform into SSJ to surpass that wall, they have said the same with SSJ2, thats literally the reason why these forms exist.

The DBS thing is irrelevant because there Goku had already absorbed SSG and was stronger than a SSJ3, before that it was not that strong, I don't know why you don't want to believe something that was stated so many times in the manga, according to you the SSJ forms are unnecessary, when the whole point of the Cell arc was to surpass the SSJ wall with a new form.

[Hulk10]

Kai is not a canon, the original manga is.







Thats irrelevant since its after absorbing the SSG's strength.

Kai is more canon than the original DBZ anime. Also the Super reference is not irrelevant either. You're welcome to think that if you like.

DB Kai is not more canon than DBZ, both are adaptations of the original manga, which is the only canon.

Its stated multiple times that the base form has a limit and that they need to transform into SSJ to surpass that wall, they have said the same with SSJ2, thats literally the reason why these forms exist.

The DBS thing is irrelevant because there Goku had already absorbed SSG and was stronger than a SSJ3, before that it was not that strong, I don't know why you don't want to believe something that was stated so many times in the manga, according to you the SSJ forms are unnecessary, when the whole point of the Cell arc was to surpass the SSJ wall with a new form.

Ok look I'm not saying the SSJ forms are unnecessary. I'm saying that no matter what form a Saiyan is in, they can surpass their current limits in that form. They keep reaching new levels and limits and they keep breaking them. They reach them, they break them. And they reach them again. The cycle repeats. It seems I wasn't especially clear about that.

[Soldierofficial]

Kai is more canon than the original DBZ anime. Also the Super reference is not irrelevant either. You're welcome to think that if you like.

DB Kai is not more canon than DBZ, both are adaptations of the original manga, which is the only canon.

Its stated multiple times that the base form has a limit and that they need to transform into SSJ to surpass that wall, they have said the same with SSJ2, thats literally the reason why these forms exist.

The DBS thing is irrelevant because there Goku had already absorbed SSG and was stronger than a SSJ3, before that it was not that strong, I don't know why you don't want to believe something that was stated so many times in the manga, according to you the SSJ forms are unnecessary, when the whole point of the Cell arc was to surpass the SSJ wall with a new form.

Ok look I'm not saying the SSJ forms are unnecessary. I'm saying that no matter what form a Saiyan is in, they can surpass their current limits in that form. They keep reaching new levels and limits and they keep breaking them. They reach them, they break them. And they reach them again. The cycle repeats. It seems I wasn't especially clear about that.

But that was not implied at all, they always said that they need a new form to surpass their limits, when they have made it clear that they can exceed their limits without transforming? The only times a Saiyan was stronger than he should was explained (like SSJ2 Future Trunks being as strong as a SSJ3, since he improved the form), but we know that in normal conditions a SSJ cannot be stronger than a SSJ2.

[Hulk10]

DB Kai is not more canon than DBZ, both are adaptations of the original manga, which is the only canon.

Its stated multiple times that the base form has a limit and that they need to transform into SSJ to surpass that wall, they have said the same with SSJ2, thats literally the reason why these forms exist.

The DBS thing is irrelevant because there Goku had already absorbed SSG and was stronger than a SSJ3, before that it was not that strong, I don't know why you don't want to believe something that was stated so many times in the manga, according to you the SSJ forms are unnecessary, when the whole point of the Cell arc was to surpass the SSJ wall with a new form.

Ok look I'm not saying the SSJ forms are unnecessary. I'm saying that no matter what form a Saiyan is in, they can surpass their current limits in that form. They keep reaching new levels and limits and they keep breaking them. They reach them, they break them. And they reach them again. The cycle repeats. It seems I wasn't especially clear about that.

But that was not implied at all, they always said that they need a new form to surpass their limits, when they have made it clear that they can exceed their limits without transforming? The only times a Saiyan was stronger than he should was explained (like SSJ2 Future Trunks being as strong as a SSJ3, since he improved the form), but we know that in normal conditions a SSJ cannot be stronger than a SSJ2.

But didn't Goku break free of his limits several times before finally transforming?

But anyway I've gotta get out of this particular debate.