Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

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Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by ronaldnorth_03 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:35 pm

The original draft altogether is a mystery, but thanks to interviews from those involved in the series, we got some plot points.

Trunks didn't train with Shin and Kibito, so he has no healing power.

Vegeta does not become Super Saiyan God in the manga.

Goku and Vegeta in Super Saiyan Blue would be enough to face Merged Zamasu. That way we would not have Vegetto.

Toppo was a candidate for God of Destruction, but would not gain a transformation.

Ribrianne wouldn't have her first form, just the fat version. Incidentally, the '' power of love '' was not described by him.

Kale was created by Toei Animation because she wanted a character similar to Broly.

Jiren's origin was the author's idea, because he wanted the character to be silent.

Toei Animation has set the 'Justice' background for Jiren and Toppo, turning them into justice soldiers.

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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:32 am

Personally, I think all of the changes we can assume Toyotaro made to Toriyama's outlines have been for the better, while the ones that can be attributed to Toei have been less consistent, but realistically, I don't think changing some details on individual beats can easily save these garbage storylines.

If you want to fix, for example (and it's a good example), the Black arc, you'd basically have to completely mulligan the entire ending, and honestly you'd probably have to redo most of the "act 2" of the story, since it very much has the amateur movie script/bad fanfiction feeling in that it has an anaemic middle portion, where basically all that's happening is the pieces are being moved into place to set up the ending, and endless exposition is being dumped on us to explain why and how what's going on is going on, most of which is just unnecessary padding (well... Okay, I will admit a lot of the stuff Zamas was up to was kinda cool, but while he wasn't a bad villain by any stretch, the plot he was engaging in was a convoluted mess, and the protagonists had nothing to do while most of this was going on).

In other words, you'd have to make all the changes Toriyama probably would have made when fleshing out the rough story idea in his head in the process of turning it into weekly chapters while letting the story churn in his head and talking to his editors, friends, etc. in the original 1984-1995 run. Or all the changes that tend to happen as a first-draft movie script/story treatment is turned into the final product.

And, I think, that's the real issue that's made Super's storytelling so shitty: They're essentially given a rough first draft story, and no opportunity to fix the underlying issues in the story, they just have to work with what they've got and maybe reshuffle some of the individual story beats.

I thought up a fun thought experiment you can try at home to help understand this, but it's ultimately not exactly crucial to my communicating of my points, but you may find it entertaining and interesting, so I've left it here in a spoiler:

Ultimately, no, I don't think Toriyama's original draft not being faithfully rendered is the problem, quite the opposite; I think they're not changing it enough. Maybe Super Volume 2 will fix this, and the reason it's taking so long is that they're looking at Toriyama's outline for the Moro arc, taking some real time to write drafts, liaise with him about ideas, etc. etc. But given the manga version is kind of an uninspired slog so far, I'm not holding out hope for this.
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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by KBABZ » Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:25 am

On Robo's story draft idea...

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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:30 am

ronaldnorth_03 wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:35 pm
Goku and Vegeta in Super Saiyan Blue would be enough to face Merged Zamasu. That way we would not have Vegetto.
Big No to this one. Fused Zamasu was the final villain of the arc, defeating him shouldn't be as simple as just teaming up for 10 minutes. I'm sorry, but there's this concept known as "climax" that can't just be ignored. The anime had the right idea with having Vegito deal a lot of damage to Zamasu in their climactic fusion battle and then letting Trunks finish him off, the problem is that it was all condensed in one episode and rushed.
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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:05 pm

Star Wars talk with KBABZ:
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:30 am
ronaldnorth_03 wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:35 pm
Goku and Vegeta in Super Saiyan Blue would be enough to face Merged Zamasu. That way we would not have Vegetto.
Big No to this one. Fused Zamasu was the final villain of the arc, defeating him shouldn't be as simple as just teaming up for 10 minutes. I'm sorry, but there's this concept known as "climax" that can't just be ignored. The anime had the right idea with having Vegito deal a lot of damage to Zamasu in their climactic fusion battle and then letting Trunks finish him off, the problem is that it was all condensed in one episode and rushed.
1. The time limit of Vegetto was a retcon, and ultimately wasn't necessary to the story. There's no reason they couldn't have just made the entire final fight way longer and had Vegetto have to do some big thing to ultimately defeat him, which he realises at the end of a very difficult fight that largely proves to be quite even. Would've also made the Vegetto fusion even more impactful, because there's no known way to reverse it, so maybe we go into the next arc with Vegetto, not Goku and Vegeta, and that fallout has to be dealt with.
Though it was already established by Kibitoshin in the U6 tournament arc that it can be reversed, so maybe this is less a permanent thing, more just that they're stuck like that for a few days, and we get a fun filler episode or two out of Vegetto trying to go about daily life before he gets un-fused...
Anyway, no, Vegetto being strong enough doesn't actually mean anything for the climax of the arc; there's no reason they couldn't have just written a more in-depth fight, and had a conclusion more akin to the 21st, 22nd, and 23rd Tenkaichi arcs, the Piccolo arc, the Saiyan arc, the Freeza arc, the Cell arc, the Boo arc, the Baby arc, and the Evil Dragons arc...

2. Letting Trunks finish him off was totally fucking stupid on every level. I could see this working if the arc was way longer, and involved Trunks spending a lot of time getting stronger, trying to unleash his inner potential... Essentially think of it as sort of a recycle of Gohan's long-running struggle through the Saiyan to Cell arcs of mastering his inner power, and at the final moment it all explodes out and works...
But even that would be a bit hackneyed.

3. The problem with the ending of the Black arc wasn't any one thing; Vegetto happening and then ultimately not amounting to anything was a little stupid and frustrating, but on its own, it's not that big a deal... Trunks suddenly killing Zamas with his Spiritual Sword Of Infinite Bullshit was a stupid, frustrating, out-of-no-where deus ex machina, but it wouldn't have been that bad on its own... Zamas ultimately winning and killing everyone on earth (except conveniently the protagonists) is a cool turn, but after the last two twists, and with the way it was put into force was just fucking stupid. And then Zeno appearing and erasing the timeline had no business being involved in this in any way, shape, or form. It gives the illusion that there's clever setup and payoff by having the ultimate victory happen because of something Goku was doing at the start, but it serves no purpose. If we delete the scenes of Zeno, this story would arguably work better; they could've escaped the timeline when Zamas was killing everyone, and come back to their own time, realising they can never go back, because Zamas has won, even though he is now incorporeal in form, and unable to leave and torment any other timelines.

The problem with the ending of the Black arc wasn't that it was rushed, or really any other individual thing, all of which are factors in what was wrong with the ending... The problem is that there are a lot of major problems, all of which incoherently spill into each-other and amount to a total, incoherent mess of an ending. It's almost like they couldn't figure out which of five different endings they wanted, so they chose to do all of them, and realistically, most of them weren't even good ideas to begin with... And then they realised how bad the ending was, so they condensed it into about 2 or 3 episodes so as to not belabour the awfulness for any longer than necessary.
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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:09 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:05 pm
Anyway, no, Vegetto being strong enough doesn't actually mean anything for the climax of the arc; there's no reason they couldn't have just written a more in-depth fight, and had a conclusion more akin to the 21st, 22nd, and 23rd Tenkaichi arcs, the Piccolo arc, the Saiyan arc, the Freeza arc, the Cell arc, the Boo arc, the Baby arc, and the Evil Dragons arc...
It means a lot. Having Vegito fighting Fused Zamasu highlighted the threat Fused Zamasu posed as the first ever fusion of two villains and the final villain of the arc. Goku and Vegeta not having to rely on fusion, which is a final technique used only for big emergencies, would have done a huge disservice to the threat the writers are trying to estabilish with Fused Zamasu, who combines ultimate strength and immortality in one body.
The problem with the ending of the Black arc wasn't that it was rushed, or really any other individual thing, all of which are factors in what was wrong with the ending... The problem is that there are a lot of major problems, all of which incoherently spill into each-other and amount to a total, incoherent mess of an ending. It's almost like they couldn't figure out which of five different endings they wanted, so they chose to do all of them, and realistically, most of them weren't even good ideas to begin with... And then they realised how bad the ending was, so they condensed it into about 2 or 3 episodes so as to not belabour the awfulness for any longer than necessary.
The problem is that it was rushed. They knew very well what ending they wanted to tell. An ending where the villain ends up dealing a lasting blow to the protagonist, but the protagonist nonetheless maintains their hope. All the main ideas were good. Goku and Vegeta having to fuse to fight Zamasu is consistent with Black alone having increased his strength beyond his own understanding, so naturally Fused Zamasu is supposed to be uber strong and shouldn't just be a moderate threat who can be defeated by two Super Saiyan Blue working together for a while. Trunks defeating Zamasu is consistent with the main theme of the arc, which is that the true strength of mortals lies in their hope. Zamasu surviving and merging with the universe is also consistent with him being immortal. So why didn't these ideas work? Because the writers decided to have three major fights in one episode and having a major "villain isn't dead!" twist in 12 minutes. You said that Vegito didn't ultimately amount to anything, that's false, because Vegito was able to greatly injure Fused Zamasu and Trunks most likely wouldn't have defeated him had Vegito not contributed. The problem again is that this wasn't conveyed very well due to time constraints.
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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:41 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:09 pm
The problem is that it was rushed. They knew very well what ending they wanted to tell. An ending where the villain ends up dealing a lasting blow to the protagonist, but the protagonist nonetheless maintains their hope.
If that's what they were going for, the pace wasn't the problem. See below.
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:09 pm
All the main ideas were good. Goku and Vegeta having to fuse to fight Zamasu is consistent with Black alone having increased his strength beyond his own understanding, so naturally Fused Zamasu is supposed to be uber strong and shouldn't just be a moderate threat who can be defeated by two Super Saiyan Blue working together for a while. Trunks defeating Zamasu is consistent with the main theme of the arc, which is that the true strength of mortals lies in their hope.
Fair enough.
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:09 pm
Zamasu surviving and merging with the universe is also consistent with him being immortal. So why didn't these ideas work? Because the writers decided to have three major fights in one episode and having a major "villain isn't dead!" twist in 12 minutes. You said that Vegito didn't ultimately amount to anything, that's false, because Vegito was able to greatly injure Fused Zamasu and Trunks most likely wouldn't have defeated him had Vegito not contributed. The problem again is that this wasn't conveyed very well due to time constraints.
Even with proper timing, I'd argue this all still comes out of no where, and ultimately is just a total mess that undercuts itself in the end. Zamas "wins", yes... And then Zeno appears and fixes it. And then Trunks returns to his timeline and the guys in the maintimeline feel no consequences for any part of this. And they never talk about it again. It's just a thing that happened once that doesn't matter at all.

And Trunks ultimately defeating Zamas? Utter nonsense, really. It could probably have worked if they'd built up to it at all, but they really didn't. Even if the entire ending had been ten times longer, the first two thirds of actual story didn't build up to this. This isn't a problem of pacing, it's a problem of shit writing.

And one last thing I'd like to touch on: "Time constraints" is an odd thing to say... This almost certainly wasn't a matter of time "constraints", because Super ran all year round at the time, and they had tons of filler after the Black arc, and the pacing for the first half of it, as well as the entire Tournament Of Power arc, was painfully slow, so... Clearly they had plenty of episodes, and timing wasn't a problem, but they elected to tell the story as fast as they did. It was a choice.
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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:55 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:41 pm
Even with proper timing, I'd argue this all still comes out of no where, and ultimately is just a total mess that undercuts itself in the end. Zamas "wins", yes... And then Zeno appears and fixes it. And then Trunks returns to his timeline and the guys in the maintimeline feel no consequences for any part of this. And they never talk about it again. It's just a thing that happened once that doesn't matter at all.
It doesn't come out of nowhere. Gowasu explained earlier in the episode that the only way to defeat Fused Zamasu was to hit him hard enough to sever the connection between his immortal soul and half-mortal body, which would have disrupted his regeneration permantently. That's precisely why they fused into Vegito, it's because they needed to hit Zamasu with the greatest amount of strength they could muster.

The point you raised about the underwhelming consequences of that ending is something I myself criticized in the past. I found it stupid how these people were having dinner and all when they should have been traumatized, since they just witnessed multiversal genocide. Gowasu and Mai had the most appropriate reactions. Gowasu was devastated by the tragic fate that befell his beloved apprentice, and at the same time he partly blamed himself for Zamasu's madness. Mai was just shattered by the idea that they worked so hard only to have their hopes shattered like that, and the scene where she pointlessly fires at the sky is very touching. All the other characters had pretty lame reactions to what was supposed to be a major event, so I agree with you in that regard.

Also I know this is a technicality but they did reference that ending in a later arc. After U9's erasure in the Tournament of Power arc, Goku reminds Vegeta that they already saw a universe being erased, and we even had a flashback to when Zeno erased Infinite Zamasu along with the Future multiverse.
And Trunks ultimately defeating Zamas? Utter nonsense, really. It could probably have worked if they'd built up to it at all, but they really didn't.
I think the problem is that his feat against Zamasu is blown out of proportions. I can't really say I'm surprised, since the scene is supposed to show Trunks as this unstoppable hero who defeated a seemingly-invincible opponent, but really what did Trunks end up accomplishing? He just cleaved Zamasu in half after Vegito had already weakened him severely. He didn't even destroy him, it was Zamasu who abandoned his own disfigured form to embrace his new ethereal state, which made things even worse.
And one last thing I'd like to touch on: Time constraints... This almost certainly wasn't a matter of time "constraints", because Super ran all year round at the time, and they had tons of filler after the Black arc, and the pacing for the first half of it, as well as the entire Tournament Of Power arc, was painfully slow, so... Clearly they had plenty of episodes, and timing wasn't a problem, but they elected to tell the story as fast as they did. It was a choice.
Time constraints in the context of the Future Trunks arc. They decided that they could tell the ending in like 3 episodes, and that very clearly wasn't enough. I am not excusing Toei, I am saying that they shot themselves in the foot.
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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by ronaldnorth_03 » Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:34 pm

Am I the only one who thinks at least bizarre Zamasu turns into a universe and has his face in the sky of Earth? I think Toyotarou's manga solution with dozens of Zamasu is much better and less fussy. Toei Animation is one of the culprits for further tarnishing the plot with weird transformations like Super Saiyan Rage and God of Destruction Toppo.

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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:26 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:55 pm
It doesn't come out of nowhere. Gowasu explained earlier in the episode that the only way to defeat Fused Zamasu was to hit him hard enough to sever the connection between his immortal soul and half-mortal body, which would have disrupted his regeneration permantently. That's precisely why they fused into Vegito, it's because they needed to hit Zamasu with the greatest amount of strength they could muster.
So you're saying the sequence of events of Vegetto suddenly de-fuses because this version of fusion works differently to all previously established explanations, then Trunks kills Zamas with the Spontaneous Spirit Sword Of Pure Bullshit Plot Contrivance, then Zamas isn't dead after all and kills everyone except the protagonists, then Zeno is summoned to clean up, and then the arc is over with no lasting consequences...

You're saying this sequence of events doesn't come out of no where?
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:55 pm
I think the problem is that his feat against Zamasu is blown out of proportions. I can't really say I'm surprised, since the scene is supposed to show Trunks as this unstoppable hero who defeated a seemingly-invincible opponent, but really what did Trunks end up accomplishing? He just cleaved Zamasu in half after Vegito had already weakened him severely. He didn't even destroy him, it was Zamasu who abandoned his own disfigured form to embrace his new ethereal state, which made things even worse.
Previously, practically no one could touch Zamas. Then suddenly Trunks gains a never-before-seen new power and uses it to kill him, then it turns out he's not dead?

It's just straight-up bad storytelling.
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:55 pm
Time constraints in the context of the Future Trunks arc. They decided that they could tell the ending in like 3 episodes, and that very clearly wasn't enough. I am not excusing Toei, I am saying that they shot themselves in the foot.
They should have been writing/outlining the episodes far enough in advance that it would've been abundantly clear in plenty of time that they might need more episodes. They elected not to allocate more episodes to the ending. They shot themselves in the foot in the same regard that they shot themselves in the foot with their various other examples of bad writing; they made a bad choice in telling their story.
Last edited by Robo4900 on Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:29 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:26 pm
So you're saying the sequence of events of Vegetto suddenly de-fuses, then Trunks kills Zamas with the Spontaneous Spirit Sword Of Pure Bullshit Plot Contrivance, then Zamas isn't dead after all and kills everyone except the protagonists, then Zeno is summoned to clean up, and then the arc is over with no lasting consequences...

You're saying this sequence of events doesn't come out of no where?
No, I'm saying that Trunks cleaving Fused Zamasu in half did not come out of nowhere.
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:55 pm
I think the problem is that his feat against Zamasu is blown out of proportions. I can't really say I'm surprised, since the scene is supposed to show Trunks as this unstoppable hero who defeated a seemingly-invincible opponent, but really what did Trunks end up accomplishing? He just cleaved Zamasu in half after Vegito had already weakened him severely. He didn't even destroy him, it was Zamasu who abandoned his own disfigured form to embrace his new ethereal state, which made things even worse.
Previously, practically no one could touch Zamas. Then suddenly Trunks gains a never-before-seen new power and uses it to kill him, then it turns out he's not dead?
That's just straight-up bad storytelling.
I mean, previously in that same episode we saw Goku melt like half of Zamasu's face, then later on we saw Vegito demolishing the Giant Grotesque Zamasu.

Also do you know what would be bad story-telling? If Trunks actually killed Zamasu, because it was hammered down throughout the arc that Zamasu was invincible and immortal, and in that same episode Gowasu points out how he still has an immortal soul, so it was obvious that it wouldn't be so simple to defeat Zamasu.
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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:37 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:29 pm
No, I'm saying that Trunks cleaving Fused Zamasu in half did not come out of nowhere.
Trunks suddenly gaining enough power to do this, and then carrying it out, using a technique we've never seen before, that wasn't even hinted at before, didn't come out of nowhere?
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:29 pm
I mean, previously in that same episode we saw Goku melt like half of Zamasu's face, then later on we saw Vegito demolishing the Giant Grotesque Zamasu.
Okay, fair. But it was still generally a case of no one being able to do any serious damage apart from Vegetto. Goku managed to do a tiny bit, but the anime made it clear that even in one of his lower-powered states, he utterly outclasses Trunks. And yet, Trunks suddenly, out of nowhere, has this crazy hidden power/technique that he uses to kill Zamas?...
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:29 pm
Also do you know what would be bad story-telling? If Trunks actually killed Zamasu, because it was hammered down throughout the arc that Zamasu was invincible and immortal, and in that same episode Gowasu points out how he still has an immortal soul, so it was obvious that it wouldn't be so simple to defeat Zamasu.
I agree that it would be bad storytelling for Trunks to have killed Zamas. In fact, I've come around to thinking it's bad storytelling for Zamas to not indisputably and totally win. I think he should have killed all life in Trunks's timeline, and Trunks returns to the main timeline, and realises he can never return home, and we have Trunks hanging around for a while as he comes to terms with how hard he lost. As I said before, the problem isn't one thing, but that doesn't mean each individual thing isn't also a problem. The Black arc's ending is, as I said before, a clusterfuck. Honestly, I think most of the various endings of this arc were bad. Vegetto winning is a bit anticlimactic, Trunks winning is inane and stupid, Zamas winning is not a bad idea but ultimately the execution of "He died but he's not actually dead, in fact he's stronger because he's one with the universe and can now kill everyone but he doesn't kill the protagnoists" was horseshit. Possibly could've been saved, but then Zeno appears for no good reason, and tidies the whole thing up, and then Trunks just returns home, and the protagnoists in our time are left with no lasting consequences of any sort...

As for Gowasu saying he has an "immortal soul" earlier on, that doesn't really tell us anything. Seems to me like a pre-emptive hadwave added in to excuse the bullshit contrivance of him, out of absolutely no where, suddenly becoming one with the universe or something, and killing everyone except the protagonists.
ronaldnorth_03 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:34 pm
Am I the only one who thinks at least bizarre Zamasu turns into a universe and has his face in the sky of Earth? I think Toyotarou's manga solution with dozens of Zamasu is much better and less fussy. Toei Animation is one of the culprits for further tarnishing the plot with weird transformations like Super Saiyan Rage and God of Destruction Toppo.
Sorry, I missed this initially. Yes, I agree. I think Toei screwed the pooch on this one. Toyotaro's idea that Zamasu ends up duplicating until there's millions of him was a far better way to go about the "Zamas wins" angle. Makes more sense, at least. And plays much more into the "I am inevitable" kind of thinking behind Zamas being unstoppable.
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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:48 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:37 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:29 pm
No, I'm saying that Trunks cleaving Fused Zamasu in half did not come out of nowhere.
Trunks suddenly gaining enough power to do this, and then carrying it out, using a technique we've never seen before, that wasn't even hinted at before, didn't come out of nowhere?
Allow me to clarify myself further. The technique itself came out of nowhere, and I said the same thing about Super Saiyan Rage in the past, but the idea itself of Trunks "defeating" Zamasu is not too far-fetched. And I use defeat in a very broad term. What Trunks did is simple. He did not kill Zamasu, he did not even trigger his destruction. He merely blocked his regeneration ability so that he could no longer recover after being cleaved in half. And that was AFTER Vegito already exhausted and damaged Zamasu during their fight, which was actually pretty long in-universe. I mean obviously from our perspective it was like 10 minutes, but in the Dragon Ball world a 10 minutes-long fight is very long. How many fights happened in just 10 minutes in the Tournament of Power arc?
and can now kill everyone but he doesn't kill the protagnoists" was horseshit.
Nah, I think it makes sense. He was completely and utterly insane at that point, he could do nothing but laugh maniacally. He probably did not even notice Goku and co. survived his initial attack, which completely and utterly decimated the surface of the planet. So it's not that he decided not to kill them or couldn't, it's just that he did not give a shit about anything anymore. The one and only time Infinite Zamasu showed some degree of intellect was when he was erased by Zeno, when he showed actual fear. Before that? Yeah, just a screaming mindless lunatic. Which is the tragedy of Zamasu after all, I mean, that such an intelligent God reduced himself to such a miserable state. That's why I'd say Zamasu "won" in a very general way. He eradicated all mortals, but at what cost? He no longer had any sanity left and could not build the utopia he was trying to create. He won the battle but lost his own mind in the process.
As for Gowasu saying he has an "immortal soul" earlier on, that doesn't really tell us anything. Seems to me like a pre-emptive hadwave added in to excuse the bullshit contrivance of him, out of absolutely no where, suddenly becoming one with the universe or something, and killing everyone except the protagonists.
Why though? I don't see how it's just a contrived BS way to justify that twist. Also, Fused Zamasu did say upon his birth that "his form was the world". Talk about foreshadowing. :P
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Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:34 pm
Am I the only one who thinks at least bizarre Zamasu turns into a universe and has his face in the sky of Earth? I think Toyotarou's manga solution with dozens of Zamasu is much better and less fussy. Toei Animation is one of the culprits for further tarnishing the plot with weird transformations like Super Saiyan Rage and God of Destruction Toppo.
I prefer the anime version. The manga version is just a rehash of Metal Cooler, the anime version is something that is legitimately scary. Just the image of Zamasu's darkness covering every planet was chilling. His face in the sky is just a visual representation of his soul having merged with the very fabric of the cosmos.
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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by KBABZ » Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:08 pm

I think the Trunks bit could have worked if the power he got was inherited. In the Saiyan arc, Gohan was able to deal substantial damage to Vegeta by the end (albeit with a Spirit Bomb and Oozaru boost), and in the case of the Spirit Bomb he, along with Krillin, had borrowed it from Goku. Something like that where Vegetto gets his ass kicked, but gives the last of his energy to Trunks to finish Zamasu off may have worked.

(disclaimer: haven't seen Super yet)

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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:35 am

Despite its flaws I prefer The Manga version of the Zamasu Arc leagues ahead of the anime version, its far more concise with how things progress.

And I prefer Toriyama's original idea that Merged Zamasu while "Strong" in his own right still is mostly really a threat because of the immortality. It just makes sense with it comes to the scaling of the powers. In the Manga itself its blatantly stated that Zamasu is weaker than Trunks. Trunks at full power has this weird thing with SS2 where he's inexplicably as strong as SS3 Goku, dumb but whatever. Goku before Trunks powered up stated that he's much better than Gohan was from when he was a kid, arguably putting Trunks some where around the Majin Vegeta level at worst and stronger than that at best ( keeping it simple ) but still not strong enough for SS3 tier.

That being said if Zamasu is around Majin Vegeta level (WEAKER THAN TRUNKS) which is hella impressive for a Kai, there's no fucking way that if you mix that kind of power with a SSBlue level power that it somehow creates something thats leagues above other Blue teared fighters, it just doesnt make sense. At that point thats like combining a 20 and 4 and expecting it to just blow two other 20's out the water. Even if you wanna say well Potara is multiplication according to Daizenshuu, okay i can give you that but all that means is that Vegetto should've probably Killed Zamasu by accident 20x4=80 vs 20x20 =400.. yeah.

The Manga does follow Toriyama's original ideas more closely seeing as though after the two Zamasu's fuse, they dont continue to get stupid Zenkais (seriously Toei, WTF!) but the immortality plays is the biggest factor.

I dont have a huge problem with Trunk's use of the spirit bomb since the way I saw it the energy gathered on its own, it was Trunks asking for everyones energy, the remaining humans through shear hope offered their genki by accident, it materialized above Trunks and he took advantage. Still dumb but it could've been worse.
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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by Kataphrut » Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:55 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:30 am
ronaldnorth_03 wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:35 pm
Goku and Vegeta in Super Saiyan Blue would be enough to face Merged Zamasu. That way we would not have Vegetto.
Big No to this one. Fused Zamasu was the final villain of the arc, defeating him shouldn't be as simple as just teaming up for 10 minutes. I'm sorry, but there's this concept known as "climax" that can't just be ignored. The anime had the right idea with having Vegito deal a lot of damage to Zamasu in their climactic fusion battle and then letting Trunks finish him off, the problem is that it was all condensed in one episode and rushed.
I'm with you there. It reeks of the same problem Resurrection F had - "oh, the villain would be no problem to the heroes and their oh-so-powerful Super Saiyan Blue form, the problem is they just can't work together." The anime got the right idea with how it presented Goku Black and Zamasu as a threat- a Goku Black who is stronger than Goku, and a Zamasu who is weaker, but has tankiness on his side thanks to immortality already makes them a threat, then you throw fusion into the mix and the resulting being should easily threaten Vegetto.

Speaking of, I like that Vegetto actually had to work in his fight against Zamasu. No point bringing him back if he's just going to be his showy, invincible self from the first time around. That was at least a new wrinkle.

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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:28 am

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:35 am
That being said if Zamasu is around Majin Vegeta level (WEAKER THAN TRUNKS) which is hella impressive for a Kai, there's no fucking way that if you mix that kind of power with a SSBlue level power that it somehow creates something thats leagues above other Blue teared fighters, it just doesnt make sense. At that point thats like combining a 20 and 4 and expecting it to just blow two other 20's out the water. Even if you wanna say well Potara is multiplication according to Daizenshuu, okay i can give you that but all that means is that Vegetto should've probably Killed Zamasu by accident 20x4=80 vs 20x20 =400.. yeah.
Because Black had surpassed Super Saiyan Blue prior to fusing, so much so that when he used his anger to grow stronger he, and I quote, increased his power beyond his own understanding. If he, as a fighting genius, could not even fathom how stronger he became, then yeah, it's not so surprising that Fused Zamasu is so much stronger than everyone else.
The Manga does follow Toriyama's original ideas more closely seeing as though after the two Zamasu's fuse, they dont continue to get stupid Zenkais (seriously Toei, WTF!) but the immortality plays is the biggest factor.
Why shouldn't Fused Zamasu get Zenkais? I mean, he has a Saiyan cells in him, I don't see why he shouldn't be able to.
Kataphrut wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:55 am
Speaking of, I like that Vegetto actually had to work in his fight against Zamasu. No point bringing him back if he's just going to be his showy, invincible self from the first time around. That was at least a new wrinkle.
Yeah. That fight, even if it was very short, had a good balance between "Vegito dicking on his opponent" and "Vegito having to try". In the beginning Vegito was fighting evenly with Zamasu, and then after Zamasu increases his size so much and is overtaken by anger Vegito just demolishes him completely, allowing Trunks to finish the job.
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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:50 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:28 am
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:35 am
That being said if Zamasu is around Majin Vegeta level (WEAKER THAN TRUNKS) which is hella impressive for a Kai, there's no fucking way that if you mix that kind of power with a SSBlue level power that it somehow creates something thats leagues above other Blue teared fighters, it just doesnt make sense. At that point thats like combining a 20 and 4 and expecting it to just blow two other 20's out the water. Even if you wanna say well Potara is multiplication according to Daizenshuu, okay i can give you that but all that means is that Vegetto should've probably Killed Zamasu by accident 20x4=80 vs 20x20 =400.. yeah.
Because Black had surpassed Super Saiyan Blue prior to fusing, so much so that when he used his anger to grow stronger he, and I quote, increased his power beyond his own understanding. If he, as a fighting genius, could not even fathom how stronger he became, then yeah, it's not so surprising that Fused Zamasu is so much stronger than everyone else.
In the Manga Black was clearly struggling with Vegeta swapping forms mid fight. Trunks tried that in the anime version and got mopped because Vegeta was still stronger in Blue form obviously.

Even after discovering Vegeta's trick, he still was pretty much fighting on even grounds if not losing all together.
Why shouldn't Fused Zamasu get Zenkais? I mean, he has a Saiyan cells in him, I don't see why he shouldn't be able to.
The same reason why Goku and Vegeta didnt get any Zenkais, by that point they maxed them. Black was only getting them initially because his soul had to get fully acclimated to Goku's body, which happened after he got healed from his first beat down from Vegeta, which allowed him to go Rose in the first place.
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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:55 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:50 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:28 am
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:35 am
That being said if Zamasu is around Majin Vegeta level (WEAKER THAN TRUNKS) which is hella impressive for a Kai, there's no fucking way that if you mix that kind of power with a SSBlue level power that it somehow creates something thats leagues above other Blue teared fighters, it just doesnt make sense. At that point thats like combining a 20 and 4 and expecting it to just blow two other 20's out the water. Even if you wanna say well Potara is multiplication according to Daizenshuu, okay i can give you that but all that means is that Vegetto should've probably Killed Zamasu by accident 20x4=80 vs 20x20 =400.. yeah.
Because Black had surpassed Super Saiyan Blue prior to fusing, so much so that when he used his anger to grow stronger he, and I quote, increased his power beyond his own understanding. If he, as a fighting genius, could not even fathom how stronger he became, then yeah, it's not so surprising that Fused Zamasu is so much stronger than everyone else.
In the Manga Black was clearly struggling with Vegeta swapping forms mid fight. Trunks tried that in the anime version and got mopped because Vegeta was still stronger in Blue form obviously.

Even after discovering Vegeta's trick, he still was pretty much fighting on even grounds if not losing all together.
Why shouldn't Fused Zamasu get Zenkais? I mean, he has a Saiyan cells in him, I don't see why he shouldn't be able to.
The same reason why Goku and Vegeta didnt get any Zenkais, by that point they maxed them. Black was only getting them initially because his soul had to get fully acclimated to Goku's body, which happened after he got healed from his first beat down from Vegeta, which allowed him to go Rose in the first place.
I'm talking about the anime here. In the anime Black managed to unlock an even greater strength by using the power of his own anger and Goku and Vegeta hadn't maxed out their Zenkai yet, as the Tournament of Power shows.

If we're talking about the manga then there is nothing to discuss. Fused Zamasu in the manga was not a particularly great threat and was much more tame than in the anime.
My form is justice. And my form is the world. Worship me. Give praise unto me. Me, the beautiful, the sublime... Me, the invincible, the almighty and divine... All hail Zamasu.

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Re: Would some decisions by Akira Toriyama in their original draft be beneficial to Dragon Ball Super?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:17 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:55 pm
I'm talking about the anime here. In the anime Black managed to unlock an even greater strength by using the power of his own anger and Goku and Vegeta hadn't maxed out their Zenkai yet, as the Tournament of Power shows.

We don't know how much stronger Black was over Goku and Vegeta once he got his Ki Scythe. Vegeta dodged Black's initial strike fairly easily, it wasn't until the portal thing opened that he gained some sort of upper hand because they didnt know how to get around that illusion thing or whatever it was. Had Black towered over Goku and Vegeta that much, he would've just killed them right there and Trunks too but instead opted to fuse instead.

There were no Zenkais in the Tournament of Power Goku and Vegeta constantly powering up into Blue even after constantly being beat down was just tenacity more than anything ( horribly executed btw) but by no way were there any near death power ups. Even Ultra Instinct at the end of the day was achieved just by Goku's sheer will not to lose. Same with Blue Evolution.
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