Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Zarely]

That's not what happened. He didn't force him to grow bigger nor was he making a fool of him. Fused Zamasu straight up overpowered Vegito at one point, and the only reason why he got stabbed by his energy blade is because he thought he had knocked Vegito unconcious, so he wasn't prepared. Vegito then gloated about Zamasu not being able to regenerate his body anymore and got proven wrong immediately when Fused Zamasu shrugged off the wound stab he got from the energy blade. And only then did Fused Zamasu grow bigger, and it wasn't because Vegito was forcing him to, it's because Fused Zamasu was becoming more and more insane.

If you think Zamasu crying was a result of Vegito making a fool out of him, you're mistaken. He'd have no reason to cry about that since Vegito wasn't dominating him in the first place.

Also very clearly your list was not following manga continuity since it had Rage Trunks.

All Zamasu did was hit Vegito in the stomach and cause to fall to the ground and even then that was possibly happen on purpose so that Vegito could trick him with the energy blade.

Zamasu then got bigger and stronger but was unable to do anything against Vegito from that point on.

I included Rage Trunks just because he wasn't in the manga but Zamasu is in the manga and he's weak there too. He was nothing compared to Vegito there. He was closer in the anime but there weren't equal.

[SupremeKai25]

That's not what happened. He didn't force him to grow bigger nor was he making a fool of him. Fused Zamasu straight up overpowered Vegito at one point, and the only reason why he got stabbed by his energy blade is because he thought he had knocked Vegito unconcious, so he wasn't prepared. Vegito then gloated about Zamasu not being able to regenerate his body anymore and got proven wrong immediately when Fused Zamasu shrugged off the wound stab he got from the energy blade. And only then did Fused Zamasu grow bigger, and it wasn't because Vegito was forcing him to, it's because Fused Zamasu was becoming more and more insane.

If you think Zamasu crying was a result of Vegito making a fool out of him, you're mistaken. He'd have no reason to cry about that since Vegito wasn't dominating him in the first place.

Also very clearly your list was not following manga continuity since it had Rage Trunks.

All Zamasu did was hit Vegito in the stomach and cause to fall to the ground and even then that was possibly happen on purpose so that Vegito could trick him with the energy blade.

Zamasu then got bigger and stronger but was unable to do anything against Vegito from that point on.

I included Rage Trunks just because he wasn't in the manga but Zamasu is in the manga and he's weak there too. He was nothing compared to Vegito there. He was closer in the anime but there weren't equal.

No. Zamasu fought evenly with Vegito up to the point when he bulked up. At one point his eye blast forced Vegito to fall back. There is no reason to believe Vegito planned for Zamasu to punch him in the guts, simply because we know that Zamasu and Vegito were on the same level as I already proved. Besides, even if that were the case, if anything it proves that Vegito had to rely on strategy for once because Zamasu matched him in strength.

Your second point is also incorrect. After bulking up, Zamasu and Vegito were still shown in a stalemate.

There's no point in comparing anime and manga whe they are so different. Pick one and act accordingly. If you put Rage Trunks in there then you are implying that you are considering only the anime continuity, in which Zamasu and Vegito are around the same level of power.

[ZombieVito]

You also have to take into account Gogeta.

Just now Gogeta has surpassed Beerus so Vegetto back at the Black arc simply can't be stronger than him.

Goku had to not only catch up to (Or surpass) Goku Black before the ToP but also master Blue Kaioken x10 and x20 so he should be significant stronger than he was back then. He also should be a little stronger after the ToP, when the movie takes place.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

My thinking has always been that SSB Vegito back then was around the same level at full power and fully serious as non-shirtless Jiren and SSFP Broly later on, but Goku and Vegeta getting stronger since then put SSB Gogeta above that later on.

[Thani]

My thinking has always been that SSB Vegito back then was around the same level at full power and fully serious as non-shirtless Jiren and SSFP Broly later on, but Goku and Vegeta getting stronger since then put SSB Gogeta above that later on.

I can buy that, honestly.

[p-hyvo]

No. Vegito forced him on the defensive only after he grew bigger, and that's a mistake people have done since the Cell arc.

And Vegito forced him to have to get bigger because he was making a fool of him after he stabbed him through. In the manga also Zamasu is a chump compared to Vegito. He's nowhere on his level.

Why kefla isnt there but you count vegetto?

I haven't got that far yet. That's as of episode 104. Gohan is stronger than 17 though, that was said in the manga too.

Oh, then of It Is Just about ep 104 ,17 shouldnt even be there, beceuse he was base tier at the start of the tournament

Oh yes, and anime=\= manga, so you cant use something stated in the manga to scale the anime. Just saying

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I imagine that the closest comparisons you can make between anime and manga are the general tiers.

For example, the Merged Zamasu that initially showed up is likely meant to be generally the same between the 2 mediums, able to thrash around a normal SSB but being pressured by a full-power SSB via the Complete SSB form in the manga and SSB Goku's full-power Kamehameha in the anime; the former would become the general level of SSB in both mediums by the time of the ToP and Broly movie, at least as far as I see things.

[Zarely]

Your second point is also incorrect. After bulking up, Zamasu and Vegito were still shown in a stalemate.

There was no stalemate. Vegito is practically mocking Zamasu for how slow he was and couldn't even keep up with him. Zamasu had no choice but to bulk up because he was weaker.

There's no point in comparing anime and manga whe they are so different. Pick one and act accordingly. If you put Rage Trunks in there then you are implying that you are considering only the anime continuity, in which Zamasu and Vegito are around the same level of power.

Rage Trunks is only in the anime so you can only go off that. Zamasu is in both versions and in each he's notable weaker than Vegito.

[Zarely]

Anyway I've had enough of that. Going back to before, would people say this is accurate?

Base Goku = Final Form Frieza > Frost > Jimizu > Gohan

[ZombieVito]

So if Buuhan is a 100, what number would you give these fighters?

Base Goku [RoF arc]:
Base Goku [U6 arc]:
Base Goku [ToP arc]:

FF Freeza [RoF arc]:

Frost [U6 arc]:
Frost [ToP arc]:

Piccolo [U6 arc]:
Piccolo [ToP arc]:

Ribrianne:
Ribrianne [Big form]:

Kahseral:
Bergamo:
Slim Boo:
Base Kale:
Base Caulifla:

[Miracles]

Canon fact: Vegetto and Zamas were equal. Vegetto used his full power Final Kamehameha claiming this would "finish it." It did not.
Canon fact 2: Vegetto also knew he only had an hour, so he wanted to end the battle as quickly as possible. Yet failed.
Canon fact three: Zamasu was "no longer immortal." Stated by Vegetto; Gowasu and Shin confirms this when they said his body was "falling apart and not healing." This was due to the immortal Zamasu mixing with a mortal Black. Which was making his immortality fade as time went on.

So, Vegetto was not holding back, Zamas was fighting Vegetto WHILE his body was breaking down due to his regeneration slowly leaving. Yet Vegetto still couldn't take advantage of this dysfunctional Zamasu because he lacked the power to do so.

[SupremeKai25]

Your second point is also incorrect. After bulking up, Zamasu and Vegito were still shown in a stalemate.

There was no stalemate. Vegito is practically mocking Zamasu for how slow he was and couldn't even keep up with him. Zamasu had no choice but to bulk up because he was weaker.

There's no point in comparing anime and manga whe they are so different. Pick one and act accordingly. If you put Rage Trunks in there then you are implying that you are considering only the anime continuity, in which Zamasu and Vegito are around the same level of power.

Rage Trunks is only in the anime so you can only go off that. Zamasu is in both versions and in each he's notable weaker than Vegito.

No. Vegito mocked Zamasu for his lack of speed only after he bulked up, and I already proved that he did not bulk up because he lacked the strength to defeat Vegito, since he was fighting evenly with him. At one point he also forced him to retreat with a ki blast (which had Vegito show an expression of shock in his face) and even managed to overpower him, then got stabbed only because he was caught off guard. And yes, they were shown in a stalemate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfB7Qd-IqJ8

Minute 14.30. Fused Zamasu has already bulked up and yet he is shown in a stalemate with Vegito, with the latter grunting (which indicates he was struggling). Also notice how shortly after, though Vegito was able to push back Fused Zamasu for a moment, he still had to carefully avoid his ki blade.

How can you even combine the anime and manga version of Fused Zamasu? This is a legitimate question, how can you combine two versions that are so radically different in power? How do you even make it logical? One of them can fight evenly, the other just gets stomped the entire fight.

Besides, Trunks is still in the manga, so no you don't need to include Rage Trunks. If you really want to follow the manga continuity then you can keep Trunks and just remove his Rage state. He'll be significantly weaker though.

[Hugo Boss]

Anyway I've had enough of that. Going back to before, would people say this is accurate?

Base Goku = Final Form Frieza > Frost > Jimizu > Gohan

Sometimes this is right, sometimes not. Base Gohan managed to fight evenly with Base Goku in Episode 90.

[p-hyvo]

Anyway I've had enough of that. Going back to before, would people say this is accurate?

Base Goku = Final Form Frieza > Frost > Jimizu > Gohan

Absolutely not. Freezer Is a God tier at the ToP.
He was in the rof movie and saga, but only because that "base" Goku was beyond god

[Zarely]

How can you even combine the anime and manga version of Fused Zamasu? This is a legitimate question, how can you combine two versions that are so radically different in power? How do you even make it logical? One of them can fight evenly, the other just gets stomped the entire fight.

Neither fought evenly, one was weaker and the other was significantly weaker but they were both weaker. I see your avatar so I get that you're trying to hype up the character but they were never even anymore than Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Android 17 were even despite what they showed.

Absolutely not. Freezer Is a God tier at the ToP.
He was in the rof movie and saga, but only because that "base" Goku was beyond god

That wouldn't make any sense. Base Goku and Frieza were about even before and there wasn't a drastic amount in their Blue and Golden forms at the time. By the Tournament those forms were equal so would make no sense for Frieza to be hundreds of times stronger than Base Goku.

[SupremeKai25]

How can you even combine the anime and manga version of Fused Zamasu? This is a legitimate question, how can you combine two versions that are so radically different in power? How do you even make it logical? One of them can fight evenly, the other just gets stomped the entire fight.

Neither fought evenly, one was weaker and the other was significantly weaker but they were both weaker. I see your avatar so I get that you're trying to hype up the character but they were never even anymore than Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Android 17 were even despite what they showed.

Absolutely not. Freezer Is a God tier at the ToP.
He was in the rof movie and saga, but only because that "base" Goku was beyond god

That wouldn't make any sense. Base Goku and Frieza were about even before and there wasn't a drastic amount in their Blue and Golden forms at the time. By the Tournament those forms were equal so would make no sense for Frieza to be hundreds of times stronger than Base Goku.

How did neither fought evenly when they were trading blows for the entirety of the first part of the fight, with Zamasu even overpowering Vegito at one point, and in the second part of the fight they were still shown in a stalemate?

Also Fused Zamasu was far above Blue Goku by the point he turned Corrupted... Goku ate a Senzu bean so he regained his strength but still had to fuse with Vegeta, because they all realized they needed an even greater power to fight Zamasu. And if Vegito was shown struggling with Zamasu multiple times, there is no way Blue Goku would last longer than 2 minutes against Corrupted Fused Zamasu.

Also you can't hype up a character who was killed 3 years ago lol...

[BibleBeliever]

Anyway I've had enough of that. Going back to before, would people say this is accurate?

Base Goku = Final Form Frieza > Frost > Jimizu > Gohan

No. Remember, Goku needed Super Saiyan to defeat Frost, the latter overpowered him when Goku was in his base form, which is the whole reason why he transformed, and why Frost had to pull that cheap stunt of hitting him with a poisoned needle.

Jimizu is weaker than Final Form Frieza, however. And he is stronger than Ultimate Gohan (although Frieza said if Gohan used SSJ he could win, but that would defeat the purpose of his Ultimate form).

[Miracles]

Freeza fought evenly with base Goku before the TOP.
Then FF Freeza fought evenly with Dyspo who was punking Hit and Red Goku in the TOP.
The only reason why people debate this is because, once again; TOEI's bad writing.

Therefore we have to go to the canonical source. Toriyama's RoF movie. FF Freeza was only as strong as a powered up base Goku. Nowhere was he stated to be Red level.

[Zarely]

If Frieza was God level then why would he need to pull a stunt on Frost to get him out the ring? Frost was no match for Super Saiyan so Frieza could have taken him out straight away.

It makes no sense for Frieza to be as strong as a Super Saiyan.

How did neither fought evenly when they were trading blows for the entirety of the first part of the fight

That means little. Super Saiyan Blue Goku traded blows with Android 17 and Gohan even though it was made clear later they were weaker. Ribrianne traded blows with Super Saiyan Vegeta and then later Base Goku. Roshi traded blows with Base Goku. Zamasu traded blows with Super Saiyan 2 Trunks and Super Saiyan Blue Goku.

[SupremeKai25]

If Frieza was God level then why would he need to pull a stunt on Frost to get him out the ring? Frost was no match for Super Saiyan so Frieza could have taken him out straight away.

It makes no sense for Frieza to be as strong as a Super Saiyan.

How did neither fought evenly when they were trading blows for the entirety of the first part of the fight

That means little. Super Saiyan Blue Goku traded blows with Android 17 and Gohan even though it was made clear later they were weaker. Ribrianne traded blows with Super Saiyan Vegeta and then later Base Goku. Roshi traded blows with Base Goku. Zamasu traded blows with Super Saiyan 2 Trunks and Super Saiyan Blue Goku.

Except that it wasn't just a case of him trading blows but at one point he overpowered him and with one of his ki blasts he pushed him back and made him do an expression of fear. Besides those examples above don't have to be the rule but the exception. There is no indication whatsoever that Vegito was just messing around with Zamasu or not taking it seriously and that's how they could trade blows, like in the aforementioned examples. In fact, it's the opposite. As I mentioned earlier, Vegito stated on two different occasions, after Fused Zamasu had already limited his speed significantly, that he would end it with one attack, only for that attack to ultimately do nothing or very little damage to Zamasu. Vegito was very clearly trying throughout the entire fight and getting nowhere.