Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[p-hyvo]

Well in Super they slaughter no difficulty but in Z never in my opinion. should have clarified my bad

The would even in buu saga, since base Goten and trunks could keep up with 18 in a fight in wich 18 had no reason to suprpess her power

We know Krillin insisted that she restrain herself lest someone get killed during the competition as he was heading off with everyone else to Babidi's. At first Mighty Mask was considered an anomaly, but still human from #18's perspective. She was able to avoid a projectile from their Super Saiyan states, to boot. If the gap was so small between their untransformed states and this cyborg why bother charging an attack at all? They could easily do to her what Goku and Krillin used to do to the competitors in the preliminary matches in DB classic, burdensome costume or not.

I think Goku could almost certainly bring down Freeza using the Kaioken in the Buu arc. The other unfused Saiyans lack that ability.

18 wanted to win, so One She had discovered the Power of mighty Mask shechad no reason to suprpess her power. Also, a SUPPRESSED blast by ssj Trunks shocked her, implying that suppressed ssj Trunks>>18

But even without considering that, with and organic progression of Power scaling without interfering headcanons (such as bog Goku<namecc freezer, wich i see a lot here) , even lowballing base saiyans should have surpassed freezer in Power already since th Cell games

[Lionel]

The would even in buu saga, since base Goten and trunks could keep up with 18 in a fight in wich 18 had no reason to suprpess her power

We know Krillin insisted that she restrain herself lest someone get killed during the competition as he was heading off with everyone else to Babidi's. At first Mighty Mask was considered an anomaly, but still human from #18's perspective. She was able to avoid a projectile from their Super Saiyan states, to boot. If the gap was so small between their untransformed states and this cyborg why bother charging an attack at all? They could easily do to her what Goku and Krillin used to do to the competitors in the preliminary matches in DB classic, burdensome costume or not.

I think Goku could almost certainly bring down Freeza using the Kaioken in the Buu arc. The other unfused Saiyans lack that ability.

18 wanted to win, so One She had discovered the Power of mighty Mask shechad no reason to suprpess her power. Also, a SUPPRESSED blast by ssj Trunks shocked her, implying that suppressed ssj Trunks>>18

But even without considering that, with and organic progression of Power scaling without interfering headcanons (such as bog Goku<namecc freezer, wich i see a lot here) , even lowballing base saiyans should have surpassed freezer in Power already since th Cell games

#18's internal thoughts seem to imply that her interests were at least somewhat marred by confusion about her opponent's irregularly small body length but self-contradicting power. She's certainly motivated by the desire to win the prize money but she's having to regulate the amount of force she outputs against an unexpected challenger with unpredictable power. More to that point, a Super Saiyan amplifier dwarfs the original power of the Saiyan. They neglected to even attempt using the full brunt of their base power before transforming -- if the lack of auras and ki projectiles at that point are any indication. As Super Saiyans, if they were truly comparable to #18 in base, she should have posed no issue at all, let alone defy the apparent chasm in their powers by avoiding the attack they charged against her. What was preventing them from disappearing and reappearing behind her then incapacitating her a la Goku against King Chappa?

If you want to pass over Beerus's observations that's your choice. Personally, I'm not convinced of them having overtaken Freeza in base until after the BOG arc.

[p-hyvo]

We know Krillin insisted that she restrain herself lest someone get killed during the competition as he was heading off with everyone else to Babidi's. At first Mighty Mask was considered an anomaly, but still human from #18's perspective. She was able to avoid a projectile from their Super Saiyan states, to boot. If the gap was so small between their untransformed states and this cyborg why bother charging an attack at all? They could easily do to her what Goku and Krillin used to do to the competitors in the preliminary matches in DB classic, burdensome costume or not.

I think Goku could almost certainly bring down Freeza using the Kaioken in the Buu arc. The other unfused Saiyans lack that ability.

18 wanted to win, so One She had discovered the Power of mighty Mask shechad no reason to suprpess her power. Also, a SUPPRESSED blast by ssj Trunks shocked her, implying that suppressed ssj Trunks>>18

But even without considering that, with and organic progression of Power scaling without interfering headcanons (such as bog Goku<namecc freezer, wich i see a lot here) , even lowballing base saiyans should have surpassed freezer in Power already since th Cell games

#18's internal thoughts seem to imply that her interests were at least somewhat marred by confusion about her opponent's irregularly small body length but self-contradicting power. She's certainly motivated by the desire to win the prize money but she's having to regulate the amount of force she outputs against an unexpected challenger with unpredictable power. More to that point, a Super Saiyan amplifier dwarfs the original power of the Saiyan. They neglected to even attempt using the full brunt of their base power before transforming -- if the lack of auras and ki projectiles at that point are any indication. As Super Saiyans, if they were truly comparable to #18 in base, she should have posed no issue at all, let alone defy the apparent chasm in their powers by avoiding the attack they charged against her. What was preventing them from disappearing and reappearing behind her then incapacitating her a la Goku against King Chappa?

If you want to pass over Beerus's observations that's your choice. Personally, I'm not convinced of them having overtaken Freeza in base until after the BOG arc.

About beerus, that was a taunt more than everything else. I Remember beerus being doubtful of Goku beating freezer even After he turned ssj.
Plus, beerus has likely never seen freezer's true Power, but only the suppressed 530'000 Power level form. Moreover, beerus said he had no doubt about Goku beating freezer only when Goku turned ssj2 against him, indicating that he was infact dobtful even with ssj goku

And, as i've previously stated, with and organic progression of the Power scaling base saiyans had already surpassed freezer by the Cell games, and that beerus statement Is a huge contraddiction ti what z showed

So the things are 2 :
Base Goku was suppressed
Beerus was taunting him to male him use all his Power

That statement Is to be taken literally exactly as fusion being AxB statement Is
Not in the slightest

[Lionel]

18 wanted to win, so One She had discovered the Power of mighty Mask shechad no reason to suprpess her power. Also, a SUPPRESSED blast by ssj Trunks shocked her, implying that suppressed ssj Trunks>>18

But even without considering that, with and organic progression of Power scaling without interfering headcanons (such as bog Goku<namecc freezer, wich i see a lot here) , even lowballing base saiyans should have surpassed freezer in Power already since th Cell games

#18's internal thoughts seem to imply that her interests were at least somewhat marred by confusion about her opponent's irregularly small body length but self-contradicting power. She's certainly motivated by the desire to win the prize money but she's having to regulate the amount of force she outputs against an unexpected challenger with unpredictable power. More to that point, a Super Saiyan amplifier dwarfs the original power of the Saiyan. They neglected to even attempt using the full brunt of their base power before transforming -- if the lack of auras and ki projectiles at that point are any indication. As Super Saiyans, if they were truly comparable to #18 in base, she should have posed no issue at all, let alone defy the apparent chasm in their powers by avoiding the attack they charged against her. What was preventing them from disappearing and reappearing behind her then incapacitating her a la Goku against King Chappa?

If you want to pass over Beerus's observations that's your choice. Personally, I'm not convinced of them having overtaken Freeza in base until after the BOG arc.

About beerus, that was a taunt more than everything else. I Remember beerus being doubtful of Goku beating freezer even After he turned ssj.
Plus, beerus has likely never seen freezer's true Power, but only the suppressed 530'000 Power level form. Moreover, beerus said he had no doubt about Goku beating freezer only when Goku turned ssj2 against him, indicating that he was infact dobtful even with ssj goku

And, as i've previously stated, with and organic progression of the Power scaling base saiyans had already surpassed freezer by the Cell games, and that beerus statement Is a huge contraddiction ti what z showed

So the things are 2 :
Base Goku was suppressed
Beerus was taunting him to male him use all his Power

That statement Is to be taken literally exactly as fusion being AxB statement Is
Not in the slightest

Looking back over the material, Beerus had observed a projection from Whis of Goku's transformation and subsequent attack against Freeza in his final form. In episode 5, he acknowledges Goku in initial Super Saiyan state as being sufficient to handle Freeza. If the first form is all Beerus was familiar with, this new state that Whis is visually projecting should have astounded him. Also, there's still the unaccounted variable of Cold. Surely Beerus would have been aware of the existence of the former reigning monarch of the Planet Trade Organisation who also happened to be Freeza's father.

I don't see anything in the Cell arc to corroborate the claim unless you're thinking along the lines of Trunks' kiai propelling Imperfect Cell out of West City or something.

[Koitsukai]

There is nothing to support Cell Games base saiyans can take Namek Freeza, Goku's base not even with the greatest kaioken was close back then. It is all speculation due to not ever in the arc seeing a base saiyan fight. Or in the Buu arc for that matter, except fodder like Pui Pui or Yakon who were below their base.

Actually in the Cell arc most of the saiyan's gains are due to enhacements on the SS transformation, their base doesn't seem to increase enough to go from 3-5M to 120-150M, or even be the key for growth, the zenkais don't tilt the scales anymore. Goku fully "discards" his base form and not only trains but lives as SS. Strengthening their base seemed to take the back seat on this arc, so I highly doubt that base saiyans became as strong as a Namek SS just in base.
To me only BoG base Goku could take Freeza. Maybe post-Buu arc Goku too. Without kaioken.


Anyway, what is the general idea of Freeza's Golden form multiplier?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

There is nothing to support Cell Games base saiyans can take Namek Freeza, Goku's base not even with the greatest kaioken was close back then. It is all speculation due to not ever in the arc seeing a base saiyan fight. Or in the Buu arc for that matter, except fodder like Pui Pui or Yakon who were below their base.

Actually in the Cell arc most of the saiyan's gains are due to enhacements on the SS transformation, their base doesn't seem to increase enough to go from 3-5M to 120-150M, or even be the key for growth, the zenkais don't tilt the scales anymore. Goku fully "discards" his base form and not only trains but lives as SS. Strengthening their base seemed to take the back seat on this arc, so I highly doubt that base saiyans became as strong as a Namek SS just in base.
To me only BoG base Goku could take Freeza. Maybe post-Buu arc Goku too. Without kaioken.


Anyway, what is the general idea of Freeza's Golden form multiplier?

That really all depends on where place place SSG and SSB compared to the Saiyans' base and Super Saiyan forms, as well as Freeza's own base power.

My take has been that SSG is around 100 times greater than Super Saiyan's 50x boost (off of a Majin Buu-level base form), with SSB being around 20 times greater than it. If Freeza's regular full-power is relative to base form, then that's a 10,000x boost straight up. If it's relative to Super Saiyan, it's 2000 times then.

[p-hyvo]

There is nothing to support Cell Games base saiyans can take Namek Freeza, Goku's base not even with the greatest kaioken was close back then. It is all speculation due to not ever in the arc seeing a base saiyan fight. Or in the Buu arc for that matter, except fodder like Pui Pui or Yakon who were below their base.

Actually in the Cell arc most of the saiyan's gains are due to enhacements on the SS transformation, their base doesn't seem to increase enough to go from 3-5M to 120-150M, or even be the key for growth, the zenkais don't tilt the scales anymore. Goku fully "discards" his base form and not only trains but lives as SS. Strengthening their base seemed to take the back seat on this arc, so I highly doubt that base saiyans became as strong as a Namek SS just in base.
To me only BoG base Goku could take Freeza. Maybe post-Buu arc Goku too. Without kaioken.


Anyway, what is the general idea of Freeza's Golden form multiplier?

About base saiyans : you maybe ignore the fact that 50% ssj Goku was already stronger than G3 Trunks when he faced Cell, and that Heart deseased ssj Goku was stated to be stronger than post yardrat ssj Goku by tenshinhan. That 2 things alone makes base Cell games saiyans have a Power level over the One of freezer. Literally, i can't make a Power level list in wich base Cell games saiyans are considerabile weaker than namecc freezer. It Is Just impossibile if you don't Stretch and force It to obtain that result

[Koitsukai]

There is nothing to support Cell Games base saiyans can take Namek Freeza, Goku's base not even with the greatest kaioken was close back then. It is all speculation due to not ever in the arc seeing a base saiyan fight. Or in the Buu arc for that matter, except fodder like Pui Pui or Yakon who were below their base.

Actually in the Cell arc most of the saiyan's gains are due to enhacements on the SS transformation, their base doesn't seem to increase enough to go from 3-5M to 120-150M, or even be the key for growth, the zenkais don't tilt the scales anymore. Goku fully "discards" his base form and not only trains but lives as SS. Strengthening their base seemed to take the back seat on this arc, so I highly doubt that base saiyans became as strong as a Namek SS just in base.
To me only BoG base Goku could take Freeza. Maybe post-Buu arc Goku too. Without kaioken.


Anyway, what is the general idea of Freeza's Golden form multiplier?

About base saiyans : you maybe ignore the fact that 50% ssj Goku was already stronger than G3 Trunks when he faced Cell, and that Heart deseased ssj Goku was stated to be stronger than post yardrat ssj Goku by tenshinhan. That 2 things alone makes base Cell games saiyans have a Power level over the One of freezer. Literally, i can't make a Power level list in wich base Cell games saiyans are considerabile weaker than namecc freezer. It Is Just impossibile if you don't Stretch and force It to obtain that result

To me that is not enough at all to make such assumption. Goku being stronger than 3 years ago isn't indicative of anything revealing really, it is the most logical thing, he did spent that time training. I can't find that statement in the anime though, the manga definitely does not have it, so I can hardly consider it, specially when Tenshinhan only saw Yadrat SS Goku using his finger.

SS Goku showcasing half his power at Korin's and surpassing Broly Trunks(which was never stated, only Vegeta admitted that he was weaker) also doesn't mean that in his base he can kill Freeza. I really can't see the correlation, he can be stronger than Trunks (1.900 M)with half the power of 4.000M, and still with a base of 80M not be enough for Freeza's 120M.

[ZombieVito]

So what are your thoughts on Goku's rage boost in episode 61. Was it permanent?

[Koitsukai]

So what are your thoughts on Goku's rage boost in episode 61. Was it permanent?

I would say that it was permanent. After all, it was Goku getting angry and tapping into more SSB power, reaching new heights that weren't enough. Maybe he is not always as strong but I believe he can use that at will. I could be missing something that points the other way, though.

[p-hyvo]

There is nothing to support Cell Games base saiyans can take Namek Freeza, Goku's base not even with the greatest kaioken was close back then. It is all speculation due to not ever in the arc seeing a base saiyan fight. Or in the Buu arc for that matter, except fodder like Pui Pui or Yakon who were below their base.

Actually in the Cell arc most of the saiyan's gains are due to enhacements on the SS transformation, their base doesn't seem to increase enough to go from 3-5M to 120-150M, or even be the key for growth, the zenkais don't tilt the scales anymore. Goku fully "discards" his base form and not only trains but lives as SS. Strengthening their base seemed to take the back seat on this arc, so I highly doubt that base saiyans became as strong as a Namek SS just in base.
To me only BoG base Goku could take Freeza. Maybe post-Buu arc Goku too. Without kaioken.


Anyway, what is the general idea of Freeza's Golden form multiplier?

About base saiyans : you maybe ignore the fact that 50% ssj Goku was already stronger than G3 Trunks when he faced Cell, and that Heart deseased ssj Goku was stated to be stronger than post yardrat ssj Goku by tenshinhan. That 2 things alone makes base Cell games saiyans have a Power level over the One of freezer. Literally, i can't make a Power level list in wich base Cell games saiyans are considerabile weaker than namecc freezer. It Is Just impossibile if you don't Stretch and force It to obtain that result

To me that is not enough at all to make such assumption. Goku being stronger than 3 years ago isn't indicative of anything revealing really, it is the most logical thing, he did spent that time training. I can't find that statement in the anime though, the manga definitely does not have it, so I can hardly consider it, specially when Tenshinhan only saw Yadrat SS Goku using his finger.

SS Goku showcasing half his power at Korin's and surpassing Broly Trunks(which was never stated, only Vegeta admitted that he was weaker) also doesn't mean that in his base he can kill Freeza. I really can't see the correlation, he can be stronger than Trunks (1.900 M)with half the power of 4.000M, and still with a base of 80M not be enough for Freeza's 120M.

Well, tenshinhan's statement is'nt a direct One, but he's like "woah Goku Is a Monster, Is stronger than ever" infact, tenshinhan did'nt have any suspect about Goku not doing well, the only One that got that was piccolo , Who trained with him for 3 years and knew his strenght.
Literally, from the manga :
Tenshinhan: incredible! Goku's power Is extraoridary! Goku's a super Saiyan...we'll never get ti his level... He's too superior

Piccolo : you really think so?

*Gohan arrives*

Tenshinhan : don't worry, Goku Is powerful... Super saiyans are really fantastic ! Against him, that 2 androide can't di anything!

Piccolo : Gohan, did you notice that too? It's all too Easy...this fight has Just befana, but Goku Is giving all he's got... But even so he can't end this

Tenshinhan : what? You are too pessimist. Don't you see? goku's winning

Piccolo :you don't know his true strenght... Goku's Power as a ssj should be ubumaginable

(End of the segment i needed, translation made by me from the Italian manga to english because i could'nt find english scans online)

Anyway, from this we can get that tenshinhan says that Goku vs 19>Goku post yardrat.
Piccolo does'nt really correct him on Goku being stronger than before but only on Goku being fullpower, Who tenshinhan believed

[Koitsukai]

About base saiyans : you maybe ignore the fact that 50% ssj Goku was already stronger than G3 Trunks when he faced Cell, and that Heart deseased ssj Goku was stated to be stronger than post yardrat ssj Goku by tenshinhan. That 2 things alone makes base Cell games saiyans have a Power level over the One of freezer. Literally, i can't make a Power level list in wich base Cell games saiyans are considerabile weaker than namecc freezer. It Is Just impossibile if you don't Stretch and force It to obtain that result

To me that is not enough at all to make such assumption. Goku being stronger than 3 years ago isn't indicative of anything revealing really, it is the most logical thing, he did spent that time training. I can't find that statement in the anime though, the manga definitely does not have it, so I can hardly consider it, specially when Tenshinhan only saw Yadrat SS Goku using his finger.

SS Goku showcasing half his power at Korin's and surpassing Broly Trunks(which was never stated, only Vegeta admitted that he was weaker) also doesn't mean that in his base he can kill Freeza. I really can't see the correlation, he can be stronger than Trunks (1.900 M)with half the power of 4.000M, and still with a base of 80M not be enough for Freeza's 120M.

Well, tenshinhan's statement is'nt a direct One, but he's like "woah Goku Is a Monster, Is stronger than ever" infact, tenshinhan did'nt have any suspect about Goku not doing well, the only One that got that was piccolo , Who trained with him for 3 years and knew his strenght.
Literally, from the manga :
Tenshinhan: incredible! Goku's power Is extraoridary! Goku's a super Saiyan...we'll never get ti his level... He's too superior

Piccolo : you really think so?

*Gohan arrives*

Tenshinhan : don't worry, Goku Is powerful... Super saiyans are really fantastic ! Against him, that 2 androide can't di anything!

Piccolo : Gohan, did you notice that too? It's all too Easy...this fight has Just befana, but Goku Is giving all he's got... But even so he can't end this

Tenshinhan : what? You are too pessimist. Don't you see? goku's winning

Piccolo :you don't know his true strenght... Goku's Power as a ssj should be ubumaginable

(End of the segment i needed, translation made by me from the Italian manga to english because i could'nt find english scans online)

Anyway, from this we can get that tenshinhan says that Goku vs 19>Goku post yardrat.
Piccolo does'nt really correct him on Goku being stronger than before but only on Goku being fullpower, Who tenshinhan believed

I see, it's the same conversation I was thinking about. Still, I don't see anything revealing there, or that makes me think that later in base they would already be able to match Namek's SS. Also, there is no comparison with Yadrat Goku, who never fought, and even if there was(because Goku WAS stronger than before until his heart started to fail him), it's just natural progresion. I'm guessing we won't agree on this.

[BagetaSama]

The narrator said Gohan rivaled Blue Goku so that puts him anywhere between 80-100% of Goku.

Me personally, I put him at 80 since him and 17 failed to do anything to Toppo.

The question is whether Toppo is relative to SSBKK or just SSB, because the Exhibition Match seems to suggest that, and Vegeta wasn't going through the gauntlet the way Goku was, so it doesn't make sense for his strength boost to be as large as Goku's during the ToP. Vegeta being ~Toppo~SSBKKx10 would make more sense.

[ZombieVito]

The narrator said Gohan rivaled Blue Goku so that puts him anywhere between 80-100% of Goku.

Me personally, I put him at 80 since him and 17 failed to do anything to Toppo.

The question is whether Toppo is relative to SSBKK or just SSB, because the Exhibition Match seems to suggest that, and Vegeta wasn't going through the gauntlet the way Goku was, so it doesn't make sense for his strength boost to be as large as Goku's during the ToP. Vegeta being ~Toppo~SSBKKx10 would make more sense.

But Vegeta is weaker than Golden Freeza.

Toppo can't be stronger than Blue Goku, let alone any version of Kaioken Blue without going GoD because of that.

[BagetaSama]

The narrator said Gohan rivaled Blue Goku so that puts him anywhere between 80-100% of Goku.

Me personally, I put him at 80 since him and 17 failed to do anything to Toppo.

The question is whether Toppo is relative to SSBKK or just SSB, because the Exhibition Match seems to suggest that, and Vegeta wasn't going through the gauntlet the way Goku was, so it doesn't make sense for his strength boost to be as large as Goku's during the ToP. Vegeta being ~Toppo~SSBKKx10 would make more sense.

But Vegeta is weaker than Golden Freeza.

Toppo can't be stronger than Blue Goku, let alone any version of Kaioken Blue without going GoD because of that.

....Why would Vegeta be weaker than Golden Freeza?

[ZombieVito]

....Why would Vegeta be weaker than Golden Freeza?

Confirmed by official previews.

[Zarely]

Goku, Vegeta, Frieza and Toppo are all equal to me.

[BagetaSama]

....Why would Vegeta be weaker than Golden Freeza?

Confirmed by official previews.

Okay what are you talking about? Care to link it or something?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Goku, Vegeta, Frieza and Toppo are all equal to me.

In equivalent forms, pretty much the same for me. Well, besides Hakaishin Toppo who I think is still superior in terms of raw power compared to SSB/KKx20 and SSB/Evolution.

[Koitsukai]

Yeah, between Goku, Vegeta, Freeza and base Toppo I don't think there is one clearly stronger than the other like it is the case with them in their evolved states (omen/SSBKKx20 vs SSBE vs hakaishin vs golden)

Of course one must be stronger than the other, I don't think they would fight it out for a 1000 days with no result, but not to the point where they can look down on the other.