ABED wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:59 pm
They aren't separate mediums from comics and animated series, but then I guess you could call them sub-mediums. They aren't genres, and there's no kinds of stories that are inherent to manga or anime. They can be whatever they want. Manga and Anime just denotes being made in Japan.
Exactly.
ABED wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:59 pm
That's flat out incorrect, and I'm honestly baffled as to how you came to such a conclusion. A genre label doesn't tell you everything about the works that fall into its category, but it tells someone crucial aspects about it. What's also important to take into consideration is how MANY stories also mix genres. Genres can be broad and some can more specific.
Detective fiction is a genre even though it also encompasses a WIDE variety of tones and aesthetics. It can be very serious and pessimistic like Chinatown, or it can be light and comedic like Psych and Monk.
You're reading a lot of things I straight-up didn't say there, and I'm honestly baffled as to how you came to such a conclusion.
ABED wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:59 pm
I know, but Superhero tells you a lot. It tells us the aim of the characters, the kinds of worlds they inhabit and generally what the ethos is. I could not disagree with you more. Some genres are broader than others, it's that simple.
Not really. Again, compare Watchmen, Spider-Man, and Thor Ragnarok. Watchmen is a group of awful people, some of whom are trying to solve the murder of a colleage of theirs, others are retired and don't do anything other than dwell on the past, one of them doesn't care about humans, and one of them is... Well... It's a 35-year-old comic, and an 11-year-old film, but I won't spoil it anyway. And it's ultimately a deconstructionist satire, and a rather intense one at that. Spider-Man is a high schooler with high schooler issues who also happens to be the world's most down-trodden, unlucky superhero. It ranges from comedy to tragedy... Y'know what, I don't have to continue describing Spider-Man to you. I'll move on. Thor Ragnarok is about a dude, his brother, and a work buddy trying to get back home and deal with his sister who's wrecking up the place. It's a comedy about reconciling with a problematic past of toxic imperialism that's destroying your civilisation, and also reconciling with family who grew apart. And then there's stuff like the upcoming movie New Mutants, which is straight-up horror. Guardians Of The Galaxy is a light space opera, Logan is a hopeful but downbeat western/road movie.
And... Y'know what, if you want to argue this with me further, I'd appreciate if you gave me something to work with; what exactly does the "Superhero genre" mean? What does it actually tell you about a work? What does it tell you about the aim of the characters, the world they inhabit, and their ethos? As I've just laid out, there doesn't seem to be any commonality there, so... Honestly, I think I'm just gonna leave it at this, if you can't raise anything of substance I can play off of.
"Superhero media" is as much a genre as "Supernatural fiction" is. It doesn't describe anything meaningful about the story, just a surface-level implication about some facet about its world and/or protagonist(s) and/or antagonist(s).
To paraphrase you: They aren't genres, and there's no kinds of stories that are inherent to superhero fiction. They can be whatever they want. "Superhero" just denotes superpowers and/or vigilantism being involved.
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:41 pm
Backstory/shared history
are what's important here. If it came down to values or shared philosophies people would be calling Cyborg 009 the Japanese Superman and Captain America the Marvel Superman. No one does that because neither character is a superman. They're a cyborg and a super soldier. Goku on the other hand very clearly is right down to his origin story
Captain America IS the Marvel Superman, though. I haven't seen Cyborg 009, but probably yes, he is the Japanese Superman. Backstory/shared history don't matter. Like... Okay, let's try this:
If I take Goku, exactly as he's been presented in the franchise so far, you would still say he's Japanese Superman...
Okay, but what if I altered history such that Raditz neglected to mention anything about his personal history prior to his arrival on earth? What if, all else being the same, Raditz never actually told Goku how he got to earth, just that he's one of the last living Saiyans? Is he still Japanese Superman? Clearly, he's the same character, but a part of his backstory that the antagonist turns to the camera to say is slightly different in a way that takes away an irrelevant yet mildly humourous parallel. Is he still Japanese Superman, keeping in mind I haven't changed his character, or anything in the events of his life?
Now, what if Dragon Ball's story ended with Goku dying after they beat Raditz. Let's say... I dunno, maybe Goku was already revived once before, or maybe Piccolo also died in the fight, who cares. Whatever the case, Raditz never called in the other Saiyans, Piccolo killed both Goku and Raditz in one blow, they never met Freeza, Dr Gero ended up never activating his cyborgs or Cell, Babidi never came to earth, neither did Beerus or Moro, Goku dying fighting Raditz is the end of the story. So, now he doesn't really deal with the same level of cosmic threats you describe, but he's still exactly the same character, and his story up to this point is the same, and it's about half of the original story... Is he still Japanese Superman?
Now, let's turn this on its head.
What if we take a different route, and I take Wolverine from Marvel comics. Except I give him literally Goku's entire backstory leading up to the start of OG Dragon Ball, and he goes through his life, being Wolverine, exactly as we know him from the comics, movies, and TV shows, but he experiences all of the storylines from Dragon Ball, and ultimately they all go somewhat similar to how we know them to have, but Goku himself is 100% different in personality and everything. Is he still Japanese Superman?
And if so, is he still Japanese Superman if we make that one adjustment where we don't find out how he got to earth?
And if so, is he still Japanese Superman if the story ends after the Raditz fight?
Character is what makes characters. Not ephemeral backstory details.
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.