My biggest issue with Super

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ABED
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Re: My biggest issue with Super

Post by ABED » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:52 pm

No, I don't imagine it. It's dumb regardless of whatever Uub's "potential" is. Goku has met beings, including the head of the multiverse, who FAR surpass Uub and whatever his potential could ever hope to be. The ending doesn't work anymore.
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Re: My biggest issue with Super

Post by KBABZ » Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:10 pm

ABED wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:52 pm No, I don't imagine it. It's dumb regardless of whatever Uub's "potential" is. Goku has met beings, including the head of the multiverse, who FAR surpass Uub and whatever his potential could ever hope to be. The ending doesn't work anymore.
I disagree in the sense that the story never stated what Uub's true power actually is relative to anything except Goku. So long as Goku keeps surmounting opponents (which at this point is a list of three: Beerus, Whis and Jiren), then we still get to an ending where Goku is looking for his next strong opponent and meets someone who, as an untrained child, gives him a surprisingly serious fight.

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Re: My biggest issue with Super

Post by ABED » Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:15 pm

KBABZ wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:10 pm
ABED wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:52 pm No, I don't imagine it. It's dumb regardless of whatever Uub's "potential" is. Goku has met beings, including the head of the multiverse, who FAR surpass Uub and whatever his potential could ever hope to be. The ending doesn't work anymore.
I disagree in the sense that the story never stated what Uub's true power actually is relative to anything except Goku. So long as Goku keeps surmounting opponents (which at this point is a list of three: Beerus, Whis and Jiren), then we still get to an ending where Goku is looking for his next strong opponent and meets someone who, as an untrained child, gives him a surprisingly serious fight.
You're being WAY too literal. Uub's importance to the story comes from being the reincarnation of the strongest being the reader/audience has ever seen Goku fight.

Super is one giant retcon.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: My biggest issue with Super

Post by KBABZ » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:01 pm

ABED wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:15 pm
KBABZ wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:10 pm
ABED wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:52 pm No, I don't imagine it. It's dumb regardless of whatever Uub's "potential" is. Goku has met beings, including the head of the multiverse, who FAR surpass Uub and whatever his potential could ever hope to be. The ending doesn't work anymore.
I disagree in the sense that the story never stated what Uub's true power actually is relative to anything except Goku. So long as Goku keeps surmounting opponents (which at this point is a list of three: Beerus, Whis and Jiren), then we still get to an ending where Goku is looking for his next strong opponent and meets someone who, as an untrained child, gives him a surprisingly serious fight.
You're being WAY too literal. Uub's importance to the story comes from being the reincarnation of the strongest being the reader/audience has ever seen Goku fight.
Again, disagree. Uub is the reincarnation of Buu, but why Goku asked for that in the first place is so that he has a fighter who can challenge him in the future and isn't a danger to the universe like Frieza/Cell/Buu were. That's why he's so excited at the end, and flying off to train him as his next opponent is very much part of the "and the adventure continues" nature of the ending.

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Re: My biggest issue with Super

Post by ABED » Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:45 am

KBABZ wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:01 pm
ABED wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:15 pm
KBABZ wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:10 pm
I disagree in the sense that the story never stated what Uub's true power actually is relative to anything except Goku. So long as Goku keeps surmounting opponents (which at this point is a list of three: Beerus, Whis and Jiren), then we still get to an ending where Goku is looking for his next strong opponent and meets someone who, as an untrained child, gives him a surprisingly serious fight.
You're being WAY too literal. Uub's importance to the story comes from being the reincarnation of the strongest being the reader/audience has ever seen Goku fight.
Again, disagree. Uub is the reincarnation of Buu, but why Goku asked for that in the first place is so that he has a fighter who can challenge him in the future and isn't a danger to the universe like Frieza/Cell/Buu were. That's why he's so excited at the end, and flying off to train him as his next opponent is very much part of the "and the adventure continues" nature of the ending.
Again, incorrect. Buu was the being Goku thought was the strongest in the universe. As it turns out, he wasn't anywhere close. How does that ending work when he faces WAY stronger opponents after Buu? Hell, if it's all about potential, why not just say Pan has that potential? There's a reason it had to be Buu's reincarnation - because Buu was the strongest antagonist in the series.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: My biggest issue with Super

Post by KBABZ » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:00 am

ABED wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:45 am Again, incorrect. Buu was the being Goku thought was the strongest in the universe. As it turns out, he wasn't anywhere close. How does that ending work when he faces WAY stronger opponents after Buu?
Easy: Uub came back way more powerful than Buu.

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Re: My biggest issue with Super

Post by ABED » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:34 am

KBABZ wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:00 am
ABED wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:45 am Again, incorrect. Buu was the being Goku thought was the strongest in the universe. As it turns out, he wasn't anywhere close. How does that ending work when he faces WAY stronger opponents after Buu?
Easy: Uub came back way more powerful than Buu.
I get the logic, but it doesn't work thematically because they have to hand wave the problem which is only a slightly better way of dealing with the retcon than some convoluted explanation.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: My biggest issue with Super

Post by Mad Swami » Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:46 am

KBABZ wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:00 am
ABED wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:45 am Again, incorrect. Buu was the being Goku thought was the strongest in the universe. As it turns out, he wasn't anywhere close. How does that ending work when he faces WAY stronger opponents after Buu?
Easy: Uub came back way more powerful than Buu.
A 10 year old reincarnate with more power than Broly, Beerus, and Jiren is silly. Uub was not that strong at the tournament. He carries the potential to be as strong as Kid Buu and even stronger due to Kid Buu probably possessing untapped potential. My only point is that Super introduces this incredibly large array of characters that are stronger than Buu, have more potential, and are willing to fight with Goku. Why would Goku after befriending Broly, Jiren, or even Hit for that matter care about Uub.

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Re: My biggest issue with Super

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:28 am

Mad Swami wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:46 am
Why would Goku after befriending Broly, Jiren, or even Hit for that matter care about Uub.
Why wouldn't he care? He's Goku. He likes meeting people who are strong, and he tends to be encouraging of those with that type of potential, even if they are significantly weaker than himself or other opponents he's fought. He'll have a positive attitude about it regardless. And the other thing that has significance is, he's Kid Buu's reincarnation. That in it of it self, is enough for Goku to take an interest in him, power level aside. And there's also the fact that he's human who is as powerful as he is. That fact was brought to attention at EoZ, meaning it had significance then. Nothing in Super has took away that significance. Jiren's not human. Hit's not human. Broly's not human. The deities and angels certainly aren't human (well maybe Heles and Belmod are. That'd be a twist).

Also pointing that Jiren, Broly etc... are far more powerful than Uub is a moot point. Before Super was even thought of, Goku was more powerful than Uub anyway at EoZ, and Goku still took an interest in him. So that argument doesn't work.

Uub is still interesting to Goku regardless because 1. He's Buu's reincarnation. 2. He's human. There's nothing to take that significance away.

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Re: My biggest issue with Super

Post by ABED » Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:08 am

I don't even think it was potential as much as latent. He was growing stronger as the fight went along.
There's nothing to take that significance away.
Except the point about Goku having far surpassed Buu by that point.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: My biggest issue with Super

Post by Mad Swami » Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:18 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:28 am
Mad Swami wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:46 am
Why would Goku after befriending Broly, Jiren, or even Hit for that matter care about Uub.
Why wouldn't he care? He's Goku. He likes meeting people who are strong, and he tends to be encouraging of those with that type of potential, even if they are significantly weaker than himself or other opponents he's fought. He'll have a positive attitude about it regardless. And the other thing that has significance is, he's Kid Buu's reincarnation. That in it of it self, is enough for Goku to take an interest in him, power level aside. And there's also the fact that he's human who is as powerful as he is. That fact was brought to attention at EoZ, meaning it had significance then. Nothing in Super has took away that significance. Jiren's not human. Hit's not human. Broly's not human. The deities and angels certainly aren't human (well maybe Heles and Belmod are. That'd be a twist).

Also pointing that Jiren, Broly etc... are far more powerful than Uub is a moot point. Before Super was even thought of, Goku was more powerful than Uub anyway at EoZ, and Goku still took an interest in him. So that argument doesn't work.

Uub is still interesting to Goku regardless because 1. He's Buu's reincarnation. 2. He's human. There's nothing to take that significance away.
I truly disagree with you claiming it's a moot point. Goku being stronger has no affect on Uub's potential. Goku isn't saying that the 10 yr old Uub he fought is his greatest rival. He is acknowledging the potential within Uub and seeks to groom him nto a powerful warrior. So Goku being stronger is a silly point. My point is why focus on grooming Uub to be his rival when he can fight Broly a bunch. And if you point out Gohan was stronger than Goku well that also doesn't really work because Gohan wouldn't want to fight a lot. The point of Uub is his amazing potential and interest in fighting

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Re: My biggest issue with Super

Post by Mad Swami » Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:24 pm

ABED wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:08 am I don't even think it was potential as much as latent. He was growing stronger as the fight went along.
There's nothing to take that significance away.
Except the point about Goku having far surpassed Buu by that point.
which version of Buu? Kid Buu he was always a bit stronger than and I don't think EoZ SSJ3 Goku could fight Super Buu at least not yet

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Re: My biggest issue with Super

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:01 pm

Mad Swami wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:18 pm
My point is why focus on grooming Uub to be his rival when he can fight Broly a bunch.
I don't think the focus was ever Uub being groomed into being a rival. From what I remember, it was more of an apprenticeship type relationship.

Uub could even be the first step of Goku maturing. People, as they get older, like to take on apprentices, because it's often a way to do something that involve their passion as they age. Uub under this interpretation, can serve as closure to the franchise, which he basically did at the time.

But as for having more than one rival, I mean, this is Goku we're talking about. You really think he'll ever think to himself "gosh, I got too many fun rivals to fight. Better ignore this one." That's like a playboy telling himself "gosh, I got too many women to sleep with."

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Re: My biggest issue with Super

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:19 pm

ABED wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:08 am
Except the point about Goku having far surpassed Buu by that point.
A fact that predates Super even being a thought in anyone's mind. Yet, here Uub was in the story.

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Re: My biggest issue with Super

Post by ABED » Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:28 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:19 pm
ABED wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:08 am
Except the point about Goku having far surpassed Buu by that point.
A fact that predates Super even being a thought in anyone's mind. Yet, here Uub was in the story.
I don't have a clue what you mean.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: My biggest issue with Super

Post by Mad Swami » Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:46 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:01 pm
Mad Swami wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:18 pm
My point is why focus on grooming Uub to be his rival when he can fight Broly a bunch.
I don't think the focus was ever Uub being groomed into being a rival. From what I remember, it was more of an apprenticeship type relationship.

Uub could even be the first step of Goku maturing. People, as they get older, like to take on apprentices, because it's often a way to do something that involve their passion as they age. Uub under this interpretation, can serve as closure to the franchise, which he basically did at the time.

But as for having more than one rival, I mean, this is Goku we're talking about. You really think he'll ever think to himself "gosh, I got too many fun rivals to fight. Better ignore this one." That's like a playboy telling himself "gosh, I got too many women to sleep with."
It is kind of an apprenticeship type relationship but Goku even says "After I train you we can then fight and go all out! Doesn't that sound amazing!"

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Re: My biggest issue with Super

Post by Psajdak » Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:56 pm

Uub doesn't matter anymore...

Actually, he never really did all that much - including GT where he, kind of, had his five minutes.

Even among fandom, to this day he's just that one forgettable EoZ boy, who is also in GT too.

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Re: My biggest issue with Super

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:17 pm

ABED wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:28 pm
I don't have a clue what you mean.
Goku was far stronger than Uub EoZ, even if we pay no consideration to DBSuper.

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Re: My biggest issue with Super

Post by ABED » Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:22 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:17 pm
ABED wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:28 pm
I don't have a clue what you mean.
Goku was far stronger than Uub EoZ, even if we pay no consideration to DBSuper.
That's not immediately obvious. Uub doesn't know how to use his strength and is getting stronger as the battle progresses. Goku stops it before it goes too far.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: My biggest issue with Super

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:26 pm

Mad Swami wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:46 pm
Goku even says "After I train you we can then fight and go all out! Doesn't that sound amazing!"
Which doesn't make them rivals. It makes them sparring partners. Broly, he actually sees as a friendly rival, hence "call me Kakarot" type thing. It's simply two different types of character relationships. There isn't as much opportunity to get the fulfillment of being a mentor from Broly as there is with Uub. And there definitely isn't with Jiren.

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