"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

If people are looking for meaningful context to the humans fighting Moro's subordinates then they can look to the fact that it's through said subordinates that Moro is able to effectively navigate through the universe and locate potential worlds of sentient lifeforms for Moro to consume.

This is true. Moro releasing the galactic prisoners for such purposes gave Toyotaro a reason [or excuse] to involve the Z gang.

[GodVegetto91]

It's been, what, 30 years since the Nappa fight but nobody looks any older. There's no progression. We're constantly stuck in this bubble of nostalgia that never gets popped. Time cannot move and there can be no development because then the iconic images can't be re-sold to us.

Even though I do appreciate the love they giving to Yamcha after trashing him in both medias with stupid memes, I also agree with that.

One of the greatest things about DB is how the characters moved on when they knew they couldn't be more useful. That's why I was against Roshi coming back, because it totaly diminishes his arc in the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai.

For seriously though this battle should have only Gohan, Goten, Trunks, 17, 18 and Boo. All the rest could sit and drink coffee.

I can't speak for the anime, since that is absolute garbage that descends into nostalgia as its average state.

Okay, let's pretend the manga never did any attempt to fans nostalgia.

I don’t know about you guys, and it might be completely random But I absolutely LOVE the designs of these random aliens Goku encounters during space! Totally Toriyama/Toyotaro like! Love it!

Spoiler:

Are you kidding? There's nothing special about these designs, they are only squids with draw faces. Gosh I absolutely despise how simple and lazy Toriyama/Toyotaro/Toei can be regarding alien designs sometimes... They sure can do good ones like Gurdo, Burta and anime Yardratians, but in general most are terrible.

I wish DB had more alien designs like this:

Spoiler:

Simple doesn’t equal bad Noah... Sometimes a design can be simple yet perfect. The designs you showed were all boring and common. The one that i’ve shown was unique and interesting.

[Miracles]

On the subject of the Z gang's relevance. Is their appearance going to have any lasting value? Are they going to showcase new strength/ability? Are they going to show more coordinated attacks through teamwork to compensate for their lack now and for future opponents? Is there going to be character development for them, realizing back in DB how they must change after being cast aside because of their lower dimension of power?

For Toyotaro to bring them back in the game after their three showings from Bog, RoF and the TOP with no lesson learned wouldn't be prudent. There must be something differently gained to carry them over into the next showing.

[The Undying]

So I'm not understanding why so many readers seem opposed to the idea of Goku and Vegeta being put on a bus until it's time to fight the big bad. That's been Goku's role since the Saiyan Arc.

I'm not opposed to that. Withholding Goku and Vegeta until the climax isn't the problem, or at least it's not where I personally take issue.

The problem is vapid fanservice, which (in this case) is basically inserting side characters purely for the sake of having side characters. One good look at the original manga and you can pretty easily confirm that everyone had a role, whether we're talking about significant moments like Piccolo's character progression and subsequent sacrifice against Nappa or even minor plot developments like Tien/Chiaotzu illustrating exactly how dire of a threat the Saiyans, the main threat of that story arc, really were. Nearly everyone in every arc was expressly used for some specific purpose. Everyone benefited the narrative, even if they weren't portrayed in favorable circumstances. Nothing felt aimless.

This month's Super issue was an entire chapter dedicated to pointless flexing against small-fry antagonists that have no presence, don't contribute to the plot, and don't actually matter all that much in Moro's grand scheme. Don't take my word for it; the chapter itself acknowledges these guys are basically worthless via Moro's own dialogue. More importantly, Gohan, Piccolo and Yamcha are gaining nothing from these fights and contributing absolutely nothing to the larger story. I don't know if this was an attempt to pacify people who complained about the manga's Universe Survival arc or an excuse to bring irrelevant characters into the fray, but this definitely ain't the way to do it.

To this day, I stand firmly by my opinion that Toyotaro has done a phenomenal job of respecting Toriyama's characters. I think he still does. He's just not integrating them properly into this particular story arc, and that's damn unfortunate.

[MainJPW]

Playing DBZ:K I was thinking Chaozu could've offered so much. His telekinesis, if exploited and trained of course, would've been a great asset for the team. Seeing him in this chapter gave me hope about his character. Yeah, Toriyama shit on all of them 25 years ago and probably bringing them back could be considered weird, but if Roshi can UI Jiren, then this guys can at least defend Earth from galactic fodder.

The problem with Chaozu appears to stem from his nature as a fighter more than anything else; he's a psychic/spammy hands-off combatant trapped in a franchise based mostly in physical power struggles. Toriyama didn't seem to do anything versatile with the ability, given that he never bothered showing that psychic powers can be more than just trying to freeze someone in place. He’s also never been into differentiating fighting styles. Guldo for instance had absolutely no luck when he started using his TK (being decapitated almost immediately). Freeza couldn't do any meaningful damage to Goku with TK and mostly fought hand-to-hand.

Chaozu would need to use his environment and psychic powers tactically and defensively against people trying to just hit him. That would make for some cool fights. There's also the added addition of sharing some of the same moves Tenshinhan has which would make for some cool combination attacks.

[emperior]

Maybe it’s too early to say if the Earthlings’ inclusion in the fight will just amount to pointless fanservice.
Toyotaro may have some plans for them.
I could, at the very least, see them being killed in front of Goku so that he can be calm in front of that shock and thus achieve Ultra Instinct. But I hope for something more meaningful.

By the way even RoF’s inclusion of them was unnecessary.

[GodVegetto91]

If people are looking for meaningful context to the humans fighting Moro's subordinates then they can look to the fact that it's through said subordinates that Moro is able to effectively navigate through the universe and locate potential worlds of sentient lifeforms for Moro to consume.

This is true. Moro releasing the galactic prisoners for such purposes gave Toyotaro a reason [or excuse] to involve the Z gang.

This is also why it’s called the “Galactic Patrol Prisoner” Saga, and not simply the Moro Saga. Even Moro himself is a galactic patrol prisoner afterall.

[Miracles]

If people are looking for meaningful context to the humans fighting Moro's subordinates then they can look to the fact that it's through said subordinates that Moro is able to effectively navigate through the universe and locate potential worlds of sentient lifeforms for Moro to consume.

This is true. Moro releasing the galactic prisoners for such purposes gave Toyotaro a reason [or excuse] to involve the Z gang.

This is also why it’s called the “Galactic Patrol Prisoner” Saga, and not simply the Moro Saga. Even Moro himself is a galactic patrol prisoner afterall.

Yeah, I keep forgetting, lol.

[Brojack]

Why isn't this thread stickied but then three threads by an Ajay are even though there's been no interest in them for many months?

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Maybe it’s too early to say if the Earthlings’ inclusion in the fight will just amount to pointless fanservice.
Toyotaro may have some plans for them.
I could, at the very least, see them being killed in front of Goku so that he can be calm in front of that shock and thus achieve Ultra Instinct. But I hope for something more meaningful.

By the way even RoF’s inclusion of them was unnecessary.

Ah that's right. Goku has become such a deadend character that now he needs to become Naruto. I guess those coupe years spent as Luffy weren't as interesting as everyone had hoped

[Rakurai]

Why isn't this thread stickied but then three threads by an Ajay are even though there's been no interest in them for many months?

This is something I've been wondering myself. I'm really annoyed at having to scroll down to find the manga discussion thread which always seems to be competing w/ the Strength discussion thread for which is on top, when more obsolete threads like 'Super animation catalogue' or 'fact-checker' or hell even (imo) stupid threads like speculative 'announcement' threads are stickied.

Can we pls get off this annoying "2uper" hypebeast train that's been going nowhere for months except for silly fan-made theories or cling-ons like pulling mental gymnastics on broadcasting schedules?

We have an actual Super 2.0 & it's Toyotarou's manga. This thread should absolutely be stickied.

[emperior]

Why isn't this thread stickied but then three threads by an Ajay are even though there's been no interest in them for many months?

I agree. This should be stickied and the super obsolete fact checker thread should be unstickied.

[caire]

We have an actual Super 2.0 & it's Toyotarou's manga. This thread should absolutely be stickied.

Exactly. This manga is the canon continuation of Super; yes, it's not animated, but it still effectively is Super "season 2" considering it picks up where season 1 of the anime left off. I agree that this thread should be stickied, considering it is the only ongoing canon Dragonball content we're going to be getting for a while.

[Tai Lung]

ok seen the last chapter I am to recognize when something is done good .. this last chapter was one of the best I've seen regarding Moro arc in a long time ...
participation of several characters .. yamcha and chiaotzu or 17 and 18
interesting strategies gohan and piccolo
Gohan calling the "purple android" a "cheap copy" is one of the best fighting dialogs
show space bandits what they really should have been ... "fodder character"

the only mistake that arises is that piccolo is again not able to "listen" to his enemy

but it was good especially the comedy

[Brojack]

This is something I've been wondering myself. I'm really annoyed at having to scroll down to find the manga discussion thread which always seems to be competing w/ the Strength discussion thread for which is on top, when more obsolete threads like 'Super animation catalogue' or 'fact-checker' or hell even (imo) stupid threads like speculative 'announcement' threads are stickied.

I just noticed that as he has a green username, that Ajay must be a mod so just took the opportunity to sticky his own threads over threads that actually deserve to be stickied.

[VegettoEX]

I just noticed that as he has a green username, that Ajay must be a mod so just took the opportunity to sticky his own threads over threads that actually deserve to be stickied.

That's simply not true.

I just didn't think it was worth doing, since this thread is constantly being posted in, constantly active, constantly receiving traffic, and it doesn't even seem like anyone ever had trouble finding it.

I went ahead and stickied it earlier since a few folks asked. *shrug emoticon here*

(Personally, I don't really see any value in a sticky thread, but folks historically seem to like them...)

[Miracles]

So I'm not understanding why so many readers seem opposed to the idea of Goku and Vegeta being put on a bus until it's time to fight the big bad. That's been Goku's role since the Saiyan Arc.

I'm not opposed to that. Withholding Goku and Vegeta until the climax isn't the problem, or at least it's not where I personally take issue.

The problem is vapid fanservice, which (in this case) is basically inserting side characters purely for the sake of having side characters. One good look at the original manga and you can pretty easily confirm that everyone had a role, whether we're talking about significant moments like Piccolo's character progression and subsequent sacrifice against Nappa or even minor plot developments like Tien/Chiaotzu illustrating exactly how dire of a threat the Saiyans, the main threat of that story arc, really were. Nearly everyone in every arc was expressly used for some specific purpose. Everyone benefited the narrative, even if they weren't portrayed in favorable circumstances. Nothing felt aimless.

This month's Super issue was an entire chapter dedicated to pointless flexing against small-fry antagonists that have no presence, don't contribute to the plot, and don't actually matter all that much in Moro's grand scheme. Don't take my word for it; the chapter itself acknowledges these guys are basically worthless via Moro's own dialogue. More importantly, Gohan, Piccolo and Yamcha are gaining nothing from these fights and contributing absolutely nothing to the larger story. I don't know if this was an attempt to pacify people who complained about the manga's Universe Survival arc or an excuse to bring irrelevant characters into the fray, but this definitely ain't the way to do it.

To this day, I stand firmly by my opinion that Toyotaro has done a phenomenal job of respecting Toriyama's characters. I think he still does. He's just not integrating them properly into this particular story arc, and that's damn unfortunate.

Yeah Moro did mention that he had low expectations for his underlings. Does this tie back when he told them that they needed to get materials when his plan is realized? What could he possibly mean by that?

I just noticed that as he has a green username, that Ajay must be a mod so just took the opportunity to sticky his own threads over threads that actually deserve to be stickied.

That's simply not true.

I just didn't think it was worth doing, since this thread is constantly being posted in, constantly active, constantly receiving traffic, and it doesn't even seem like anyone ever had trouble finding it.

I went ahead and stickied it earlier since a few folks asked. *shrug emoticon here*

(Personally, I don't really see any value in a sticky thread, but folks historically seem to like them...)

Thank you.

[Tai Lung]

If people are looking for meaningful context to the humans fighting Moro's subordinates then they can look to the fact that it's through said subordinates that Moro is able to effectively navigate through the universe and locate potential worlds of sentient lifeforms for Moro to consume. For some reason the accrual of valuables and treasure is deemed important for the group as Moro's "ideals" are realised. The humans taking out these individuals not only slows Moro's devouring of worlds but he should have a more difficult time locating them on his own.

I personally found story developments like Vegeta insisting that he fight an already disqualified opponent, Frost, just to appease his own ego and Goku learning the Mafuba, an ability that ultimately didn't hold meaning in the manga, to be superfluous. Those occasions are arguably more wasteful for the plot's progression and even disrespectful to other characters. At least these fights are having some type of consequence, even if it means just slowing Moro down in his ambitions.

they really could have had the whole battle on earth for several chapters beore, it was not necessary to fight goku and vegeta ... leaving them ridiculous or gohan and piccolo
Moro can read the mind really that is not necessary have minions now ...
The real reason is simply to give more participation to the secondary characters something that is good for you to feel that the story progresses

I don't see any kind of consequence other than minor characters dying something that had happened before

[TKA]

I saw that people replied to me, but never really had the time to type up any kind of reply until now. Before I continue, I feel it's necessary to re-state that just because I'm arguing this point doesn't mean I feel as overwhelmingly strong about it as it may come off.

Is this some new definition of good writing? One where deliberately undermining your own themes and removing all emotional impact from the conclusion of your story is the goal?

If Toyotaro's goal was to show how ruthlessness and cunning are admirable he probably shouldn't have had Goku give the standard shonen

If you're going to reply to me and expect me to answer you, you should probably quote me. I almost missed that you said something to me.

Now I'm glad you bring up themes. What was the theme of the Universe Survival Arc? You can probably reason out a few pretty easily, but the main one that kept coming up was teamwork. From how Hit was willing to put it all on the line for his universe, to Jiren deciding he's the only one who can save his, and so on. That's the theme.

Now my question for you is this: Do you realize Frieza is a bad guy?

Because he is. And unlike the anime, the manga makes sure to show you that he is a bad guy several times. This is him being a bad guy. Sacrificing his teammates as pawns at the start is him being a bad guy. Bad guys generally go against the theme of the story, so the good guys can triumph over them and affirm the theme.

That's how stories work. Just because Hitler was in Inglorious Basterds doesn't mean the film was pro-Nazi. Just because Frieza did a bad thing doesn't mean the theme is hurt in any way.

The narrative has just shown that friendship sucks ass and that people shouldn't be thought of as more than stepping stones to get what you want. So, thematically, Jiren should have been the one to triumph in the end.

You would have a point if:

1. Frieza wasn't a bad guy.
2. Frieza didn't get his ass shredded by Universe 6 working together against him.
3. Jiren didn't lose solely because Universe 7 worked together and had more people left over.

What Toriyama did was sideline them because Broly: The Legendary SuperSaiyan made 3x as much as movies like Return My Gohan and World's Strongest.

Bro.

You're on kanzenshuu. Make use of the site's tools.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/manga/weekly-jump/
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/movie/

Broly was released in 1993.

The manga was well into the Buu Arc at that time. Your hypothesis doesn't hold up.

The characters got sidelined because their arcs had been completed and there's was nothing for most of them to do anymore. Their usefulness to the story had ended. And that's FINE.

Words

The original manga made characters fulfill roles the story needed. Toriyama didn't create pointless side adventures just so he can have every character do something. That's what this is. You even have Moro telling the readers that this is just pointless fanservice that means nothing.

That's a waste of everyone's time and doesn't do anything for the characters involved.

I can't speak for the anime, since that is absolute garbage that descends into nostalgia as its average state.

Okay, let's pretend the manga never did any attempt to fans nostalgia.

No, that isn't what I'm saying.

When the manga references the past, it's usually in a character doing an iconic pose, or using some old move or something. Whatever, @ those. They're cheap, easy, and don't really take away from anything.

But when you start crafting your story around nostalgia is when you've gone too far. This whole prisoners plot point seems to only exist so we can have the earthlings being "useful". That's the kind of shit the anime does, not the manga.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Now I'm glad you bring up themes. What was the theme of the Universe Survival Arc? You can probably reason out a few pretty easily, but the main one that kept coming up was teamwork.

There was no teamwork in that arc until like the very end. I'm not even going to humor that idea.

Now my question for you is this: Do you realize Frieza is a bad guy?

Because he is. And unlike the anime, the manga makes sure to show you that he is a bad guy several times. This is him being a bad guy. Sacrificing his teammates as pawns at the start is him being a bad guy. Bad guys generally go against the theme of the story, so the good guys can triumph over them and affirm the theme.

That's how stories work. Just because Hitler was in Inglorious Basterds doesn't mean the film was pro-Nazi. Just because Frieza did a bad thing doesn't mean the theme is hurt in any way.

If Hitler's actions in Inglorious Bastards had saved countless lives and furthered the aims of the heroes then yes the film would have been validated Hitler's ideology. Much like ToP validated Freeza's.

Bro.

You're on kanzenshuu. Make use of the site's tools.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/manga/weekly-jump/
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/movie/

Broly was released in 1993.

The manga was well into the Buu Arc at that time. Your hypothesis doesn't hold up.

I listed Broly to show how Saiyan themed films made increasingly more money. My example before it was "The Three Great Super Saiyans." The only Saiyan themed film not exceed the first two Z-era film was the Tullece film which made marginally less than Return My Gohan. And I take issue with how you're framing where the manga was when Broly was released. The first Broly film came out in March of 1993 when the manga was still on chapter 413. The Buu Arc wouldn't begin until chapter 421. If I'm misreading these numbers/publications dates I will happily admit to being wrong but as best I can tell, it's perfectly fair to call Broly a Cell era villain