Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Jmass97]

So, with Jiren thus far being portrayed and having more feats/statements backing up his superiority to Broly, as well as Moro thus far not demonstrating anything beyond Broly, it kinda looks like villains are getting WEAKER from Jiren onwards.

Please stop lol. More feats? More feats doesn’t always mean greater feats and downplaying Gogeta’s power won’t help either. And more statements??? No. All of Jiren’s statements say that he is on the level of the Gods of destruction or surpassed it. Even if you want to say that beerus is weakest god (I highly doubt he is) based off statements that would still put Broly at the level of or above the Gods of destruction (based off of Goku’s statement). Same as Jiren. So with that being said, the least you can say is that they are relative or equal. I’m not even going to say you’re wrong, although I believe Broly is stronger. But I will say that you’re argument is vague.

[Hugo Boss]

Just a friendly reminder. You can convey all these points without quoting several people and making multiple posts in a row.

[Sadala Elite]

They seriously need to stop making Beerus a moving goalpost. It contributes to the rather stale feeling of most of Super. It would be hella lame if they later reveal him to above MUI Goku and SSB Gogeta.

[Dragon Wukong]

Moro at this point feels stronger than Jiren actually. He gave only some of his power to Saganbo, someone who Vegeta said at his normal strength would be weaker than Trunks.

In the manga we know Gohan is at least at the same level as SSB from his feats, and it's implied 17 is as well at the end of the ToP. With just some of Moro's power Saganbo pushed back against both Gohan, 17, as well as 18 Piccolo and Jaco. This alone puts him above Kefla, who was the second strongest antagonist in the Tournament of Power (manga-wise). It's made note that while yes, he was weaker than SSB earlier at his state of old age and powerlessness, he has now eaten so many planets as to increase his strength to his limits before coming to earth.

It'll be made more clear as more chapters come out, but I think at this point Moro has surpassed Jiren in strength.

[GodVegetto91]

I’m just going to requote what Miracles posted a few pages back because it bares repeating.

After all that happened there is too much fact denying around here. The next enemy being weaker than the last does not SERVE the purpose of the story. Actually goes against the plot. Goku gets stronger each arc and his goal is to do so. No way does he train just to face weaker enemies than before. This is straight nonsense and headcanon from the fandom just to try and keep their favorite characters relevant. When in DB, past villains always get left in the dust. Yes, that includes Broly as well since Goku WILL BE THE STRONGEST facing his goalpost. Which Toriyama,; Backed by the story, said is Beerus.

For examples, Jiren was said to be stronger than BELMOND ONLY. Goku beat Jiren with UI. No where in the narration did it state Goku even as UI surpassed Beerus. LATER Broly was compared to Goku's goal post in the stronger god in Beerus post TOP. Facing a stronger Goku. Broly was not paralleled to the past weaklings in Belmond/Jiren who were beaten already. That means Broly is stronger since he is currently relevant.

Moro is facing a much stronger Goku/Vegeta. The UI Moro will face is leagues above TOP UI. This UI Goku was going to face an ANGEL at full power. Not to mention this spirit control Vegeta is letting out city destroying blasts with a FINGER BEAMS. Moro will be facing the greatest Goku and Vegeta's ever! Not to mention Merus, the angel sees Moro as such a threat he was going to fight alongside Goku and Vegeta against Moro.

This is all leading back to the story's premise about Goku and Vegeta "becoming "formidable rivals" for Beerus. Stated in the movie, anime and manga. So as Goku and Vegeta grows like this just to face Beerus, no way in God's green earth is anyone stronger than Beerus since he is the final boss.

DB is a story and the villians are here to serve that story. They are to give the main character it's purpose. Therefore Toriyama "ALWAYS" has the next enemy better than the last since Goku's theme is "always getting stronger." Anyone who says otherwise is in denial, pure and simple and can''t understand the plot of DBS.

[DestructoDisc]

Now that we have seen all of Moro's goons fight, how would you guys rank them from strongest to weakest? I think there's no doubt that Saganbo and 73 are the strongest but, what about the others?

[ssj3kakarot]

Vegeta will be the superior one imo. I am very confident in that. But we’ll see what time shows. There’s a reason he arrives on earth later than Kakkarot this time around. Spirit Control has unlocked his true, hidden potential after all these years of existence. He had never been able to fully utilize his own power like that. He was always unconsciously self limiting. So to have this Ultimate Vegeta, who DOES have more natural, in-born potential than Goku, will be superior. But Goku will be extremely OP and effective too with Ultra Instinct! Don’t clock him out just yet. This whole arc has been far more about Vegeta than Goku afterall. The ToP Arc was a little more about Goku ofcourse.

By virtue of Goku arriving 1st makes it seem like Vegeta will either get the win or that he is superior. I feel though that Goku should technically be superior due to the fact of his training. Just seems that ROSAT training with an Angel should yield a greater additive vs the Yardrat stuff.

I'm not sure if the show ever compares the potential of Goku and Vegeta directly, but it appears that Goku demonstrates the greater potential. Obviously the story is about Goku bc he's the main character but by virtue of Vegeta always training to surpass Goku implies that the great potential is Goku's. Goku is always frustrating Vegeta at every corner, surpassing him, or acheiving new transformations. I'm not saying Vegeta can't surpass Goku, but I dont think it's accurate to say Vegeta has more natural potential. Just my thoughts.

At first glance, one might think that getting beaten to a pulp for 6 months straight by an Angel in a time chamber and thus achieving mastery over Ultra Instinct this way, is the superior route. And i couldn’t blame them. But we have to remember and consider a few very key elements here... Dragon Ball as a whole is all about “Ki”... And specifically “Ki control”... We also learned that if your mind/spirit and body are very off balance, (due to in Vegeta’s case having a really trained and powerful body but a really weak level of spirit power) that you will not be able to unleash your full potential.

Base Vegeta (BASE!) got so strong after a few weeks of meditating up there, that even a simple ki blast from his finger (intended to only shoot of the device from Yunba’s hand) turned into a MASSIVE energy wave that leveled an entire city. And Vegeta was visibly shocked! And Vegeta’s level of spirit control has now become so great that he can sense pretty much anything going on on planet earth right now. A planet very far away from Yardrat.

About their potentials...

It has been stated quite a few times by Vegeta himself, but also throughout the new (and old) Broly movies, and the Bardock movie, that Vegeta DOES have more potential than Goku. Even Whis hinted at it in episode 16 of Super. But the reason why Goku has always been one step ahead of Vegeta all throughout Z, and some moments in Super aswell, is because Goku has always had far better training...

Vegeta never had a master, and always trained by his lonesome. He was entirely self taught. Goku has always had masters! Ever since the beginning of Dragon Ball. Goku has trained under more than half a dozen masters throughout the whole story, from each of them learning very different, but very effective and crucial skills, and abilities. The most important ones are the training under 1. Mr. Popo, (to learn to sense ki and fight accordingly with that), 2. King Kai, that taught him Kaioken and the Spirit Bomb, 3. And the Spirit Control training under the Yardrats! In my opinion, the most important one, and the reason why i personally believe why Goku was able to unlock Ultra Instinct much easier than Vegeta during the ToP.

Through both Mr. Popo’s, and especially the Yardrat’s training regime’s, Goku was always able to unlock far more of his own hidden powers than Vegeta’s who never had any such luxurious training routine’s.

Could you give me scans or lines that reference them implying or stating Vegeta has greater potential than Goku?

Yes, Goku has had trainers but Vegeta spent the first half his life training under some of the most brutal conditions as a Saiyan, a perfect foundation for growing in power. And to credit Gokus edge over Vegeta bc popo, roshi, kami, just isn’t accurate.

Goku trains himself on his way to namek and grows by leaps and bounds. Goku is just the better fighter. He learns faster, and generally figures things out before anyone. Cell saga: both spend time in ROSAT, Goku yields more fruit bc he’s simply better. The 7 year Buu gap, Goku yields more fruit bc he’s better. THATS why Vegeta “hates” him, that’s why he chases him. The saiyan prince is 2nd to a low class saiyan.

I will say that Goku has plot connivence in that regard, as does Gohan. He can train a day and make up 10 years, but that’s Gohans thing.

[GodVegetto91]

By virtue of Goku arriving 1st makes it seem like Vegeta will either get the win or that he is superior. I feel though that Goku should technically be superior due to the fact of his training. Just seems that ROSAT training with an Angel should yield a greater additive vs the Yardrat stuff.

I'm not sure if the show ever compares the potential of Goku and Vegeta directly, but it appears that Goku demonstrates the greater potential. Obviously the story is about Goku bc he's the main character but by virtue of Vegeta always training to surpass Goku implies that the great potential is Goku's. Goku is always frustrating Vegeta at every corner, surpassing him, or acheiving new transformations. I'm not saying Vegeta can't surpass Goku, but I dont think it's accurate to say Vegeta has more natural potential. Just my thoughts.

At first glance, one might think that getting beaten to a pulp for 6 months straight by an Angel in a time chamber and thus achieving mastery over Ultra Instinct this way, is the superior route. And i couldn’t blame them. But we have to remember and consider a few very key elements here... Dragon Ball as a whole is all about “Ki”... And specifically “Ki control”... We also learned that if your mind/spirit and body are very off balance, (due to in Vegeta’s case having a really trained and powerful body but a really weak level of spirit power) that you will not be able to unleash your full potential.

Base Vegeta (BASE!) got so strong after a few weeks of meditating up there, that even a simple ki blast from his finger (intended to only shoot of the device from Yunba’s hand) turned into a MASSIVE energy wave that leveled an entire city. And Vegeta was visibly shocked! And Vegeta’s level of spirit control has now become so great that he can sense pretty much anything going on on planet earth right now. A planet very far away from Yardrat.

About their potentials...

It has been stated quite a few times by Vegeta himself, but also throughout the new (and old) Broly movies, and the Bardock movie, that Vegeta DOES have more potential than Goku. Even Whis hinted at it in episode 16 of Super. But the reason why Goku has always been one step ahead of Vegeta all throughout Z, and some moments in Super aswell, is because Goku has always had far better training...

Vegeta never had a master, and always trained by his lonesome. He was entirely self taught. Goku has always had masters! Ever since the beginning of Dragon Ball. Goku has trained under more than half a dozen masters throughout the whole story, from each of them learning very different, but very effective and crucial skills, and abilities. The most important ones are the training under 1. Mr. Popo, (to learn to sense ki and fight accordingly with that), 2. King Kai, that taught him Kaioken and the Spirit Bomb, 3. And the Spirit Control training under the Yardrats! In my opinion, the most important one, and the reason why i personally believe why Goku was able to unlock Ultra Instinct much easier than Vegeta during the ToP.

Through both Mr. Popo’s, and especially the Yardrat’s training regime’s, Goku was always able to unlock far more of his own hidden powers than Vegeta’s who never had any such luxurious training routine’s.

Could you give me scans or lines that reference them implying or stating Vegeta has greater potential than Goku?

Yes, Goku has had trainers but Vegeta spent the first half his life training under some of the most brutal conditions as a Saiyan, a perfect foundation for growing in power. And to credit Gokus edge over Vegeta bc popo, roshi, kami, just isn’t accurate.

Goku trains himself on his way to namek and grows by leaps and bounds. Goku is just the better fighter. He learns faster, and generally figures things out before anyone. Cell saga: both spend time in ROSAT, Goku yields more fruit bc he’s simply better. The 7 year Buu gap, Goku yields more fruit bc he’s better. THATS why Vegeta “hates” him, that’s why he chases him. The saiyan prince is 2nd to a low class saiyan.

I will say that Goku has plot connivence in that regard, as does Gohan. He can train a day and make up 10 years, but that’s Gohans thing.

I mean, what evidence do you really need? Vegeta is a Super Elite. He was born with the absolute highest power level of any Saiyan ever on planet Vegeta (with the exception of Broly ofcourse). Goku was literally stated (many times) to be nothing more than a random low class warrior. Vegeta IS the prince of all Saiyans afterall... Even Whis stated that “if Vegeta learned to ‘control his ki’”, then he could easily surpass that other Saiyan - Son Goku! Pretty much implying that Vegeta has much greater potential than Goku.

And that’s EXACTLY what Vegeta is training for right now, specifically, to control his “ki”... (Spirit Control). Which will unlock his ultimate potential and hidden battle power.

[ssj3kakarot]

[/quote]
I mean, what evidence do you really need? Vegeta is a Super Elite. He was born with the absolute highest power level of any Saiyan ever on planet Vegeta (with the exception of Broly ofcourse). Goku was literally stated (many times) to be nothing more than a random low class warrior. Vegeta IS the prince of all Saiyans afterall... Even Whis stated that “if Vegeta learned to ‘control his ki’”, then he could easily surpass that other Saiyan - Son Goku! Pretty much implying that Vegeta has much greater potential than Goku.

And that’s EXACTLY what Vegeta is training for right now, specifically, to control his “ki”... (Spirit Control). Which will unlock his ultimate potential and hidden battle power.
[/quote]

Being born with an incredible high powerlevel doesn't dictate if you have greater potential. Take Gohan, super low battle power, but has explicitly been stated to have the highest potential of the main cast. My point is that, and to use your words, a randomly low class warrior, is able to out perform a "Super Elite". You tell me which one has more potential?

Take Gohan again for example for someone to directly, on multiple occasions been stated to have higher potential than both goku and vegeta.When he trains, its worth 10x (I'm exagerating here) what Goku and Vegeta do. And even now, just because Goku and Vegeta are leagues ahead of Gohan, doesn't change the fact that Gohan could (if the story wrote him properly) easily buckle down on his training and theoretcially surpass both them. So then you have Goku, same thing but to a lesser degree.

The show just doesn't show that Vegeta has greater potential than Goku, it seems to be the opposite. That doesn't take away anything from Vegeta, actually it makes him more respectable (to me anyways).

Ultimatley, I'm excited to see Vegeta come in and be a bad ass in his own regard, like when he shows up during the android saga and goes ssj for the 1st time.

[Psajdak]

What is the point of potential, if we don't actually see it in action anymore?

[Miracles]

They seriously need to stop making Beerus a moving goalpost. It contributes to the rather stale feeling of most of Super. It would be hella lame if they later reveal him to above MUI Goku and SSB Gogeta.

It wouldn't be lame because that would be keeping the story's plot consistent. In BoG, Goku made a wager with Beerus. If he beat the destroyer, earth would be saved. So instead, Goku loses to Beerus. Which Toriyama stated himself; Goku's defeat was out of respect for Beerus and to give Goku a goal to shoot towards in the future. So, the consequences for being defeated was the obliteration of earth. However, Beerus stated that he would smash earth another time and told Goku to get stronger in order to have another showdown.

Add on to the fact how the plot confirmed at the end of the movie [more than once throughout the series too] that Goku will become an arch rival for Beerus. This narration for our protagonist never changed. The intrigue never said that Goku is a formidable opponent for Beerus ever in the story. Since the plot already established that both are going to fight again. This is what plot has been steadily building up to, Goku facing Beerus a second time around.

Dragonball is a story first, it isn't some fanfic comic, where it's emphasis is on "feats." Victory belts aren't defined by lifting/blowing up heavy objects. The story simply denying an arm wrestling contest as a standard for stronger fighter is proof of that. It's about how is the next, "always" strongest bad guy going to make our power hungry hero the strongest. DB has themes, a certain point it wants to reach, which builds our characters. It certainly does not bend itself to the fans desires or selective reading. The quicker people stop looking at DB solely as a power level spreadsheet the clearer they can see the scheme it is trying to accomplish.

[Whis]

What is the point of potential, if we don't actually see it in action anymore?

I'm more curious why you think ssj4 is stronger than ssb lmao.

[Psajdak]

I'm more curious why you think ssj4 is stronger than ssb lmao.

That's just bit of provocation / jokin; I don't really know who is stronger between those those, although in Heroes they seemed more or less equal.

And I have a feeling that if SS4 actually faced SSB that they would still be equal, simply out of respect for both of forms.

[Sadala Elite]

They seriously need to stop making Beerus a moving goalpost. It contributes to the rather stale feeling of most of Super. It would be hella lame if they later reveal him to above MUI Goku and SSB Gogeta.

It wouldn't be lame because that would be keeping the story's plot consistent. In BoG, Goku made a wager with Beerus. If he beat the destroyer, earth would be saved. So instead, Goku loses to Beerus. Which Toriyama stated himself; Goku's defeat was out of respect for Beerus and to give Goku a goal to shoot towards in the future. So, the consequences for being defeated was the obliteration of earth. However, Beerus stated that he would smash earth another time and told Goku to get stronger in order to have another showdown.

Add on to the fact how the plot confirmed at the end of the movie [more than once throughout the series too] that Goku will become an arch rival for Beerus. This narration for our protagonist never changed. The intrigue never said that Goku is a formidable opponent for Beerus ever in the story. Since the plot already established that both are going to fight again. This is what plot has been steadily building up to, Goku facing Beerus a second time around.

Dragonball is a story first, it isn't some fanfic comic, where it's emphasis is on "feats." Victory belts aren't defined by lifting/blowing up heavy objects. The story simply denying an arm wrestling contest as a standard for stronger fighter is proof of that. It's about how is the next, "always" strongest bad guy going to make our power hungry hero the strongest. DB has themes, a certain point it wants to reach, which builds our characters. It certainly does not bend itself to the fans desires or selective reading. The quicker people stop looking at DB solely as a power level spreadsheet the clearer they can see the scheme it is trying to accomplish.

Beerus hasn't offered anything of narrative worth after Battle of Gods. He's been a borderline nothing character since RoF, plays zero role in any of the (little) character growth that Goku or Vegeta get in Super, let alone power growth, and he and Whis generally ruin the tension of any plot (except the ToP arc) just by being around.

Absolutely nothing since RoF implies Goku and Beerus are gonna get a major rematch, so you are just projecting. Making Beerus a moving goalposts only adds to the problem. Its simply bad writing.

And the worst thing is, Beerus has little-to-no on screen proof of being stronger than even UI Omen Goku, let alone Broly, Jiren, SSB Fusion and MUI Goku. Actions speak louder than words (show don't tell), thats why feats matter.

[Thunderbird]

Today I finally finished watching Dragon Ball Super and I had some questions on the scaling. This is mainly just based on the anime and any promotional material for it.

So supposedly a suppressed Jiren is stronger than Fused Zamasu.

I'd take it that Full Power Jiren is stronger than Belmod

Then obviously Super Full Power Jiren is much stronger still and then Ultra Instinct Goku stronger again.

But where do Beerus, Broly and Gogeta fit into that?

If Beerus is in the same ball park as Belmod then Jiren and Goku should be a lot stronger than him and Broly but according to Promotion Material Broly is the strongest yet. According to a text preview, Beerus says Ultra Instinct Goku "might" be stronger than him which would make around the same as Broly and I guess stronger than Jiren.

Is this the correct order of strength from top to bottom?

Blue Gogeta - Clearly stronger than Beerus and Broly

Broly - "Probably" stronger than Beerus ~ Ultra Instinct Goku - "Might" be stronger than Beerus

Beerus

Super Full Power Jiren - Clearly weaker than Goku

Jiren - Stronger than Belmod

Belmod

Blue Vegito - A decent bit stronger than Fused Zamasu

Fused Zamasu - Weaker than suppressed Jiren

[SupremeKai25]

I don't actually believe it's ever said anywhere that Suppressed Jiren is stronger than Fused Zamasu at his peak (so Corrupted state). Shin mentions that his power is different than anything they've felt before. Which doesn't mean that he was stronger than Fused Zamasu, just that his energy was different.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I don't actually believe it's ever said anywhere that Suppressed Jiren is stronger than Fused Zamasu at his peak (so Corrupted state). Shin mentions that his power is different than anything they've felt before. Which doesn't mean that he was stronger than Fused Zamasu, just that his energy was different.

Logically, he probably is stronger overall, but this is true. Whis makes mention that Jiren is extremely heavily suppressed despite easily outperforming SSB/KKx20 Goku giving it his all beyond his own limits with a simple glare.

Afterwards, Whis compares Jiren's power to that of a Hakaishin, perhaps even greater.

[Hugo Boss]

Today I finally finished watching Dragon Ball Super and I had some questions on the scaling. This is mainly just based on the anime and any promotional material for it.

This keeps being brought up, but so far it’s only confirmed that Jiren is stronger than Vermoud and Zamas, and that Gogeta is stronger than Broli. Beerus and Moro are still a mystery.

[Koitsukai]

If Beerus is in the same ball park as Belmod then Jiren and Goku should be a lot stronger than him and Broly but according to Promotion Material Broly is the strongest yet. According to a text preview, Beerus says Ultra Instinct Goku "might" be stronger than him which would make around the same as Broly and I guess stronger than Jiren.

You should check out the last 5 or so pages because this topic has been discussed lately. Many times actually.

I wouldn't put much weight on promotional material that didn't make it to the final product, the same goes for 3rd Omen Goku being Beerus level.
I would however value the statements implying Belmod and Beerus being relative to each other(with Belmod having the physical edge apparently) instead of one being worlds above the other. With FP Jiren already stronger than Belmod, SP Jiren should be way stronger than him and those relative to him, and so should MUI Goku.
I also value the statement of Broly being stronger than Beerus, so to me:

MUI-SSB Gogeta
Jiren
Broly
Beerus-Belmod

[Thunderbird]

So then even base Jiren is stronger than Broly?