SSGSS Evolution is a Disgustingly Bad, Ugly Transformation

[Baggie_Saiyan]

in the movie he abandons his pride ...

You're consistently missing the point, so I'll break this down as much as possible:

Pride and conviction aren't synonymous. I was specifically talking about Vegeta's conviction and devotion to his family, neither of which were "abandoned" in Battle of Gods. The point of Vegeta's character progression in that particular story arc was to demonstrate the lengths he would go to save his family and friends from certain destruction, which didn't magically go away in subsequent arcs.

We can narrow the scope of this discussion to Vegeta's pride, but it doesn't change anything. In the Zamasu arc, he lectures Black about pride, reasserts his pride, consistently strives to protect his family and doesn't receive an arbitrary new form in the 11th hour for the sole purpose of pushing out merchandise.

These aren't new developments. This isn't breaking any ground for the character. Reminding himself of personality traits that he hasn't strayed from in several story arcs isn't progression, it's redundancy.

You can emphasize aspects of Vegeta's character that he has lost sight of to reach new heights, like, for example, choosing to play by his own rules rather than continue to train under Whis, but the anime doesn't take this approach. What the anime does is make Vegeta power up about a dozen times after reminiscing about goals he already has, relies on cheap nostalgia throwbacks for actual plot points and uses """self-destruction""" techniques that... don't actually self-destruct.

Utterly vapid and ridiculous.

For the millionth time why do people keep spouting like they know what they are talking about. Evolution Vegeta was ignored for marketing for an entire year* after it debuted (even now Evolution Vegeta is heavily mismarketed since all they seem to do is just add pupils). Like pretty much everything else in DBS nothing was done to "sell merchandise" since barely anything was even flipping marketed. We are half way into 2020 and we're still waiting for them to do something with Kale (the character that everyone screamed was oy made to sell merch...) Anything Toei did in DBS was for what they thought would benefit the narrative.


*Toei send a lot of information to the marketing so the production issues of DBS isn't an issue for example the marketing department knew that Goku vs Jiren, Goku would use the Genki Dama and power up in KK months before the special aired. Vados design sheet was sent before she was even named!

Lol I think Toriyama welcomes TOEI. Since they give his merchandise more publicity.

Toriyama is very wealthy, I wouldn't say merch is on his radar. Most likely interested in making sure no one disrespects his baby. Too bad Toei did that already.

Toriyama has been record saying he isn't the type of person who cares if people change his work that was an interview I am pretty sure was done during the modern era. And besides Toriyama gave Shintani his blessing to make FP Broly so I assume he also gave his blessings to things that Toei did in main DBS.

[Aim]

Toriyama has been record saying he isn't the type of person who cares if people change his work that was an interview I am pretty sure was done during the modern era. And besides Toriyama gave Shintani his blessing to make FP Broly so I assume he also gave his blessings to things that Toei did in main DBS.

Toei probably didn't need to ask for permission, it was an anime only transformation. Besides, there's a difference between Shintani who was working on an upcoming movie going to Toriyama for blessings compared to an on going series which Toriyama wasn't happy about quality wise. If they really did ask Tori first, we wouldn't have seen Kaioken Blue, or Evolution. As it is Kaioken wasn't shown at all during Black's time on screen and was only pulled out once at the end. Toriyama is smarter than people give him credit for, allowing those forms to go through created huge inconsistencies.

[Koitsukai]

Kaioken does have a brief appearence in the manga during the ToP

[The Undying]

Evolution Vegeta was ignored for marketing for an entire year* after it debuted (even now Evolution Vegeta is heavily mismarketed since all they seem to do is just add pupils).

That doesn't disprove what I said, and it's not even correct. Merchandise isn't just figures. Blue Evolution has been heavily marketed for promotional material like mobile games, posters, stickers, and by now, toys. You can mismarket something and also design it with marketing in mind. You can have the intention to do something and botch the execution. These aren't mutually exclusive.

____________

Anyway, I'm done talking about SSBE's story implications. I feel I've more than sufficiently addressed why this form doesn't work from a narrative perspective, why it doesn't work for Vegeta's character, and why it directly conflicts with how Toriyama writes stories.

Allow me to get around to what the topic is actually about, borrowing from an older post of mine: Blue Evolution's design. Aesthestically, SSBE is bad because it clashes with Toriyama's design philosophy and ultimately clashes with itself.

Toriyama's minimalist approach comes down to two things: "less is more" and "bigger isn't better". That's what he did with the final forms for Freeza, Cell, and Boo. That's what he did to emphasize why "grade 4" (the mastered Super Saiyan state) and Super Saiyan 2 were fundamentally superior to grades 2 and 3. That's what he did with the god forms. A number of interviews go over this process in pretty excruciating detail. He doesn't do bulky transformations unless he's intentionally trying to demonstrate their weaknesses or unique character gimmicks, or otherwise show how easily superseded they can be.

Blue Evolution is a direct betrayal of that concept; it's the TV anime's ultimate Super Saiyan transformation so far, but it takes Toriyama's effective use of subversion and completely throws it out the window in favor of permanently bulging veins and generic BIG STRONK muscles that the deliberately unsuccessful grades 2-3 had. Then, rather haphazardly, it throws in these gleamy cutesy pupils that look completely jarring on a bulked up, roided Vegeta. No doubt it's an eyesore, but it's also played far too straight to fit the original author's style and generally reinforces how shallow this franchise tends to get without the people who really understand it.

Toei doesn't seem to understand what Ultra Instinct is either, but that's a whole other discussion.

Toyotaro was smart to avoid it, despite my own problems with giving Blue another arbitrary boost that it didn't need in both versions of the Tournament of Power, and Toriyama was smart to stick to his guns by excluding it from the new movie.

This is just a bad transformation all-around with no redeeming qualities at all. Hopefully it won't return in future material... Heroes notwithstanding, of course.

[Dbzfan94]

Evolution Vegeta was ignored for marketing for an entire year* after it debuted (even now Evolution Vegeta is heavily mismarketed since all they seem to do is just add pupils).

That doesn't disprove what I said, and it's not even correct. Merchandise isn't just figures. Blue Evolution has been heavily marketed for promotional material like mobile games, posters, stickers, and by now, toys. You can mismarket something and also design it with marketing in mind. You can have the intention to do something and botch the execution. These aren't mutually exclusive.

Precisly. Super's entire existence is to sell more merchandise, figures or not.

[Matches Malone]

Lol I think Toriyama welcomes TOEI. Since they give his merchandise more publicity.

Toriyama is very wealthy, I wouldn't say merch is on his radar. Most likely interested in making sure no one disrespects his baby. Too bad Toei did that already.

Everything that happens in both the anime and manga goes through Toriyama first for his OK. Keep in mind that Toriyama doesn't over think things like other authors do, so if he's told that something will get fans excited (like Toyotaro did to get his OK for Vegetto), he's more than likely going to say yes. Kaioken and Evolution may not be the most original ideas or the most consistent ones, but there's no denying that fans got very excited and happy when they were introduced.

[Lord Beerus]

Aesthetically speaking, yes, SSJB Evolution is an abysmal form. Like SSJ3, and to a degree SSJ4, there's way too much going on from visual standpoint and it leads to a horrible design clash that makes the presentation of the transformation terrible.

But, I do have a soft spot for what the transformation was meant to meant to character standpoint, as it is consistent with Vegeta's training philosophy of brute forcing his way to a higher echelon of power in a moment of desperation.

It's just the overall presentation of the transformation, with the intertwining of the cheesy inner dialogue from Vegeta, to the flashbacks of the conversation between Vegeta and Cabba, to that awful, hamfisted and terribly directed Majin Boo arc throwback in Episode 126 that really ruined any subtlety that form could have brought to the table from a narrative standpoint.

[ankokudaishogun]

Blue Evolution works perfectly in-story for both themes and design.

It's Vegeta going full SAIYAN PRIDE, forcing a Saiyan-type power-up on Blue to get more power.
It's no doubt meant to be a limited effect power-up as it's obviously NOT the way to really Surpass the Gods because, as other said well, it goes pretty much against everything Whis' training was about: efficiency.
Which is pretty much another parallel to Grade-2: it too was about forcing more power instead of being about efficiency.

It's also a parallel to Goku's own Anime-only power-up, the Kaiohken- which is a Technique-type power-up.
It, too, wasn't enough to Surpass the Gods. As it, too, was "only" about getting MORE DAKKA.

Two ways to get more power out of Blue. Two ways to get it wrong.

Goku and Vegeta do pretty much the same thing in the manga, with the pseudo-kaiohken and pseudo-BluEvo



About Toppo:
He doesn't change his personality when in Hakaishin Mode.
It's quite obvious he was not completely sold on becoming a Hakaishin. He was all about Justice, not Destruction.
When the shit hit the fan, he resolved to throw away Justice for Survival.
His transformation is little more than a visual clue that he went actual Full Power using everything he got from the Hakaishin training, which we never seen him use before.
(I wish the manga had an instance of him using Hakai against some enemy attack, just to show something for his training beside the generic god ki)

[Koitsukai]

About Toppo:
He doesn't change his personality when in Hakaishin Mode.
It's quite obvious he was not completely sold on becoming a Hakaishin. He was all about Justice, not Destruction.
When the shit hit the fan, he resolved to throw away Justice for Survival.
His transformation is little more than a visual clue that he went actual Full Power using everything he got from the Hakaishin training, which we never seen him use before.
(I wish the manga had an instance of him using Hakai against some enemy attack, just to show something for his training beside the generic god ki)

I agree about Toppo, I too wish we'd seen more from him. He had half a chapter in the exhibition match, he was being built up like crazy in that fight (although while building up Jiren) and the payoff was so lame.

[Miracles]

Lol I think Toriyama welcomes TOEI. Since they give his merchandise more publicity.

Toriyama is very wealthy, I wouldn't say merch is on his radar. Most likely interested in making sure no one disrespects his baby. Too bad Toei did that already.

That's why Toriyama does not bring TOEI's headcanon images into his authoritative movies written by him. I'm so glad he kept to his guns and kept Red and Blue special. These variations and stack-on's of Blue by the anime is overdress and depicts them as needy.

[Tai Lung]

Yeah but that is nothing new for Vegeta's character. Just a call back to him not losing himself/pride in the Buu saga.
It doesn't develop his character and as a result gave him a random power up.

but he did not achieve anything with that ... the sacrifice of vegeta was in vain
his power was granted by another by renouncing his pride ...
and he only managed to pay his guilt ... upon realizing his mistake
I consider it a small part in comparison to he achieved later in his battle with toppo since it was almost the opposite proving that he has come very far changing his way of being as well as his methods
annyway it is my opinion ..

[Aim]

Kaioken does have a brief appearence in the manga during the ToP

It was the same principle, but by no means the same technique.

Everything that happens in both the anime and manga goes through Toriyama first for his OK.

I highly doubt Toriyama knew what the design and philosophy would be behind the form. Which is why I doubt they consulted him first. The Super anime is a cluster of strange concepts, like Super Saiyan Rosé being Goku Black's version of Super Saiyan. However, SSGSSE and SSGSSK are by far some of the worst ones I've seen.

Keep in mind that Toriyama doesn't over think things like other authors do, so if he's told that something will get fans excited (like Toyotaro did to get his OK for Vegetto), he's more than likely going to say yes. Kaioken and Evolution may not be the most original ideas or the most consistent ones, but there's no denying that fans got very excited and happy when they were introduced.

This clashes with Toriyama's style of being an author, he could have made Super Saiyan God's design similar to what 'Toei' had imagined, macho and big muscles similar to Super Saiyan 4, however, he went against viewer expectations. He probably gave Toyotaro the OK for Vegetto because it wasn't that big of a deal, however, adding something like SSGSS Kaioken and SSGSS Evolution gives me the feeling Toriyama would have put a stop to it. Why do you think we never see it in Toriyama's scripts? Toriyama has wanted to go against fan's expectations for as long as I can remember.

Fans aren't reliable. If you let fans write just one Dragon Ball story, it would turn out to be worse than Dragon Ball Absalon. With people getting hyped over shitty 'Super Saiyan 100' forms with huge muscles and hair that just has no Toriyama appeal. This situation is no different in my opinion. Fans were excited, no doubt about it, but I've found that most of the time these people are absolutely clueless with what makes Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball. Someone who understands Toriyama's story and has read it from the very beginning will most likely have a much broader perspective and see the flaws in these forms and how they just don't fit into the story.

Aesthetically speaking, yes, SSJB Evolution is an abysmal form. Like SSJ3, and to a degree SSJ4, there's way too much going on from visual standpoint and it leads to a horrible design clash that makes the presentation of the transformation terrible.

I personally don't see an issue with Super Saiyan 3, I'm not a fan of Super Saiyan 4, but it's not in the same category as some of Super's forms.

But, I do have a soft spot for what the transformation was meant to meant to character standpoint, as it is consistent with Vegeta's training philosophy of brute forcing his way to a higher echelon of power in a moment of desperation.

It's just the overall presentation of the transformation, with the intertwining of the cheesy inner dialogue from Vegeta, to the flashbacks of the conversation between Vegeta and Cabba, to that awful, hamfisted and terribly directed Majin Boo arc throwback in Episode 126 that really ruined any subtlety that form could have brought to the table from a narrative standpoint.

Understandable I guess. Dragon Ball has always had a few 'cheesy' moments which I find to be fine, but this whole concept was so stupid I couldn't accept it.

This is just a bad transformation all-around with no redeeming qualities at all. Hopefully it won't return in future material... Heroes notwithstanding, of course.

Totally agree .

[Matches Malone]

This clashes with Toriyama's style of being an author, he could have made Super Saiyan God's design similar to what 'Toei' had imagined, macho and big muscles similar to Super Saiyan 4, however, he went against viewer expectations. He probably gave Toyotaro the OK for Vegetto because it wasn't that big of a deal, however, adding something like SSGSS Kaioken and SSGSS Evolution gives me the feeling Toriyama would have put a stop to it.

Toriyama isn't the author though, at least not like he was back in the day. His job is more or less to guide the ship in the right direction, but he's not the captain anymore. He's essentially telling everyone what roads not to take, but he's leaving their options open for the road they do want to take. He definitely wouldn't have introduced the forms himself, but that doesn't mean he'd be against someone else doing it as long as they followed the road he mapped out ahead. The same thing happened with Broly, his legendary buff form wasn't in his script, but he also didn't stop Toei from adding it as well.

Fans were excited, but I've found that most of the time these people are clueless with what makes Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball.

Whether we like it or not, transformations have always been a big part of DB, so saying fans who like them are clueless is in itself clueless.

[Kataphrut]

Everything about that transformation, the design, the narrative surrounding it is garbage. It looks ugly, adds nothing and goes nowhere. It's just an excuse to pad out Vegeta's runtime and pretend like he was relevant to that arc's plot, when he really wasn't. The idea of him breaking away from Ultra Instinct Goku to follow his own path had potential, but all it did was highlight how stale and stagnant his character was.

[Matches Malone]

It's just an excuse to pad out Vegeta's runtime and pretend like he was relevant to that arc's plot, when he really wasn't.

How far would've U7 gotten without Vegeta there to take care of Toppo ? Of all the characters to call irrelevant to the plot, Vegeta is the last one to fit that bill. Vegeta, Gohan, Freeza, and 17 were all crucial to Goku and U7's victory, take any one of them out and they would've lost.

[Kataphrut]

It's just an excuse to pad out Vegeta's runtime and pretend like he was relevant to that arc's plot, when he really wasn't.

How far would've U7 gotten without Vegeta there to take care of Toppo ? Of all the characters to call irrelevant to the plot, Vegeta is the last one to fit that bill. Vegeta, Gohan, Freeza, and 17 were all crucial to Goku and U7's victory, take any one of them out and they would've lost.

No, they invented that problem to give his pathetic new form something to do. That's what's so obvious about it: he got it making a vow to defeat Jiren, but because Jiren was Goku's fight and had actually been built up, they had to be like "oh well, here's Toppo."

What I mean is he didn't have anything else going besides being a strong fighter on the team. Goku was at the centre of the Tournament, both as its instigator, and the one for whom its themes of power and connections were most relevant. Meanwhile, Freeza had a fully-realised pseudo-redemption arc and was responsible for a great many twists and turns. 17 was the sleeper hit, showing up out of nowhere having gone through his own development and seizing victory at the end. And Gohan had his role as the team leader and his return to full power arc.

Vegeta by contrast had nothing going on. His recruitment episode was one episode "solve the problem, get them on the team", no different to Krillin, 18, Roshi and Tien. They realised too late that he didn't have any investment in the plot, so threw in a bunch of late game emotional moments (just moments with little to no substance) and repeated them ad nauseum.

[Aim]

Toriyama isn't the author though, at least not like he was back in the day. His job is more or less to guide the ship in the right direction, but he's not the captain anymore. He's essentially telling everyone what roads not to take, but he's leaving their options open for the road they do want to take. He definitely wouldn't have introduced the forms himself, but that doesn't mean he'd be against someone else doing it as long as they followed the road he mapped out ahead. The same thing happened with Broly, his legendary buff form wasn't in his script, but he also didn't stop Toei from adding it as well.

Fans were excited, but I've found that most of the time these people are clueless with what makes Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball.

Whether we like it or not, transformations have always been a big part of DB, so saying fans who like them are clueless is in itself clueless.

Toriyama is still the author, he has more control over his series more than anyone. He is the one who decided not to do another series back in the mid to late 2000's, he's the one that brought God and God and Revival of F to the table, he's the one that came up with Super. What more proof do you need?

That Legendary form that Broly has is an exception, it doesn't look like some fan made shit from the west. It could easily fit into the law and design nature of Toriyama. The other forms didn't.

Fans who see the appeal in these Toei made forms don't understand Toriyama. It's as simple as that. Just because transformations are a big part of Dragon Ball doesn't mean every form fits. Most if not all of Toriyama's forms had a fitting place in the story, narrative wise and design wise, these new forms are very foreign.

[emperior]

For the millionth time why do people keep spouting like they know what they are talking about. Evolution Vegeta was ignored for marketing for an entire year* after it debuted (even now Evolution Vegeta is heavily mismarketed since all they seem to do is just add pupils). Like pretty much everything else in DBS nothing was done to "sell merchandise" since barely anything was even flipping marketed. We are half way into 2020 and we're still waiting for them to do something with Kale (the character that everyone screamed was oy made to sell merch...) Anything Toei did in DBS was for what they thought would benefit the narrative.

The Undying already said it, but I will repeat it again: toys aren’t the only things they market. You are forgetting about TWO incredible money-makers, Dokkan Battle and Legends. Those games make a ton of money by adding the myriad of new forms/characters from Super. Including, of course, Kale and Blue Evolution Vegeta. Not to mention that Kale is the reason why Kefla even exists in the first place, and she’s incredibly fucking popular to the point she went trending on twitter when she was announced for FighterZ. And she was also DLC for Xenoverse 2. She’s in Dokkan Battle and is also one of the most anticipated characters to come to Legends, and there’s no doubt many people will spend lot of money to summon her in that game once she’s released.

So, please, for the millionth time: stop spouting like you know everything about the decisions of the companies behind Dragon Ball Super just because you follow their toys.

That's why Toriyama does not bring TOEI's headcanon images into his authoritative movies written by him. I'm so glad he kept to his guns and kept Red and Blue special. These variations and stack-on's of Blue by the anime is overdress and depicts them as needy.

I too am glad the anime-only forms didn’t appear in Broly. I just wished Toriyama could have told Toei to not go ahead and introduce those forms in the first place... why can’t the anime be true to Toriyama’s vision and writing ways?
I hate it when they add such pointless, garbage fanservice to the story. Especially when said story is supposed to be Toriyama’s story, so when they decide to add their original stuff and deviate from the outline, it they should first ask themselves “but would Toriyama make this a thing?” and if the answer is no or maybe, then they shouldn’t make it.

Blue Kaioken is the only acceptable thing they did. It’s something Toriyama could have done, but then they ruined it when it had no drawbacks at all and went against Toriyama’s idea of Goku and Vegeta being equal.
I didn’t even mind Blue Kaioken, and I liked how after the U6 arc they came up with a big drawback. If it only appeared sporadically as a move, like when Goku used it against Zamasu, it would have been perfect.
But now I despise it because it lead to the creation of Blue Evolution.

I highly doubt Toriyama knew what the design and philosophy would be behind the form. Which is why I doubt they consulted him first. The Super anime is a cluster of strange concepts, like Super Saiyan Rosé being Goku Black's version of Super Saiyan. However, SSGSSE and SSGSSK are by far some of the worst ones I've seen.

This clashes with Toriyama's style of being an author, he could have made Super Saiyan God's design similar to what 'Toei' had imagined, macho and big muscles similar to Super Saiyan 4, however, he went against viewer expectations. He probably gave Toyotaro the OK for Vegetto because it wasn't that big of a deal, however, adding something like SSGSS Kaioken and SSGSS Evolution gives me the feeling Toriyama would have put a stop to it. Why do you think we never see it in Toriyama's scripts? Toriyama has wanted to go against fan's expectations for as long as I can remember.

I think Toriyama must approve every original idea both Toei and Toyotaro have. So for some reason he approved of Evolution, even though the design is terrible. Maybe not as terrible as Super Saiyan God’s original one? I mean Evolution, without the aura, still fits Dragon Ball considering it’s just a copy of Grade 2.
The problem is that it doesn’t fit with what was established about muscle mass slowing down (they even had Caulifla make that same mistake once again, for fuck’s sake!) and doesn’t fit with Toriyama’s philosophy when designing strong forms. It should have had drawbacks, but it hadn’t.

By the way, I believe there’s no way Toriyama saw that garbage aura they gave Vegeta before approving the form, or else he would have never given them the ok in my opinion.

As for Black, I don’t have problems with Black skipping straight to Rosé and it’s not a strange concept considering how powerful Black’s base form already was. Actually I bet Toei didn’t understand that Black was supposed to have the normal Super Saiyan too, or else there’s no way they wouldn’t have used it. Or maybe they thought it would have made no sense for Black, who was already stronger than SS2 Trunks, to have two forms on top of that power.
Actually it’s quite weird they won’t use Black’s SSJ form for Dokkan Battle or Legends. Maybe they don’t want to confuse fans by mixing up the anime with the manga.

Fans aren't reliable. If you let fans write just one Dragon Ball story, it would turn out to be worse than Dragon Ball Absalon. With people getting hyped over shitty 'Super Saiyan 100' forms with huge muscles and hair that just has no Toriyama appeal. This situation is no different in my opinion. Fans were excited, no doubt about it, but I've found that most of the time these people are absolutely clueless with what makes Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball. Someone who understands Toriyama's story and has read it from the very beginning will most likely have a much broader perspective and see the flaws in these forms and how they just don't fit into the story.

I so totally agree on what you wrote here.

[Dragon Ball Gus]

Also the name. Super Saiyan Blue... Evo... Lu...

(gets flashbacks to a really terrible movie)

*shudders*

[Psajdak]

Some of you guys are talking like you know what is going on in Toei, and what is going on between them and Toriyama.