Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

[XanatosVanBadass]

Yes the gun censorship looks silly, but that's not really 4Kids fault, you can blame the FCC and network TV censors for that one as they are usually pretty fiercely against realistic firearms being depicted in any form in kids shows.

Justice League, Static Shock, The New Batman Adventures, Superman the animated series, Batman Beyond. Also the edited form of Dragon Ball.

Just a handful of cartoons that aired around Yu-gi-oh’s time that had no problem with showing realistic firearms. There was no FCC guidelines against it.

And yes I do believe the crappy audio for the original version of DBZ played a major part in a decent chunk of people that grew up watching the dub preferring the Faulconer soundtrack.

Somehow I doubt people who grew up with this shit:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnriaELk_pw

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EdGa-2BSFiI

[url] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2kFF2vOynUo[/url

And think it was the most epic thing ever are that critical on things like audio quality.

I fail to see how liking Faulconer's soundtrack automatically means one isn't critical on things like audio quality, that makes zero sense

Also this notion that "nostalgia" is the ONLY possible reason that someone could be kind of eh on the original score is blatantly false , you've got absolutely no possible of way proving that for an absolute cold hard fact.

I don't know if I or anyone else has made this point, but it feels like it's less the score than it is the show itself and the Faulconer score got residual goodwill from fans. Combine that with nostalgia and it's a potent mix.

Exactly my thoughts. These fans go on and on about how “epic” Perfect Cell’s theme is when in reality, it’s repetitive garbage by any standard. Cell is the epic one and you people associate that with his theme. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a fanbase in anime that’s as outright hostile towards the original Japanese like DBZEE fanboys. Not even Robotech fans.

Blatantly false, it's bad by YOUR standard, not everyone else's. This kind of nonsense is what always annoys me about these kinds of debates-the purists insisting their opinions are somehow superior and more "correct" then those that disagree with them

Sorry but hating the dub score does not make you special or unique, this isn't 1999 anymore, the dub is long since over and even Funi themselves stopped using that score, so I fail to see how still remaining angry and bitter towards people that unironically like it is going to solve anything.

I fail to see how preferring one score over another somehow equals being "hostile" towards it

If i'm "hostile" to anyone it's towards Toei for not taking better care of their own properties and allowing Funi to show them up by having better audio quality, I guarantee you if we'd had the original broadcast audio there wouldn't be nearly as many debates in regards to the score as there are now.

FYI I barely even noticed the score as a kid, I was too focused on the action to really pay much attention to the music, it wasn't until rewatching it as an adult a few years ago that I really paid any attention to the score and I found that I liked it quite a bit and I do listen to it outside of the show(hell I was just listening to it last night while playing a game). So at least for me it's definitely not a case of nostalgia(BTW I do get ever so tired of sub purists constantly throwing that word around as if it's the only possible explanation for liking a dub ).

I also find it amusing how many people stereotype the Funi soundtrack as being nothing but hardcore rock and techno when in reality that's far from being the case as there are plenty of slower and more melodic moments as well.

LMAO, someone’s defensive. Clearly I wasn’t referring specifically to you, so calm the fuck down. If you don’t see just how out right nasty Funi fanboys can get about the Japanese version, all I can say is you aren’t looking hard enough. Since at least 2007 (when the orange bricks made their debut) there’s been a shit ton of hostility towards, not just Kikuchi, but the Japanese voices, writing etc. I constantly read rude comments on social media about “granny” Goku and the like.

Mind, then they’ll babble about how Linda Young was the definitive Freeza and how Tiffany Vollmer should replace Monica Rial.

Oh, speaking of Bulma’s VA. When her Japanese voice died, you know one common sentiment I had to read on social media? I’m paraphrasing here, but “who cares? Let me know when it’s the dub actress THEN I’ll care” or “when will Nozawa be next?” Yeah.

Mind, this isn’t to say ALL Funi fans were that cruel. It was however, more than a few, and it goes with what I’ve been saying. There’s a baffling lack of respect for the original that I just don’t see with fans of other anime. It’s FINE if you prefer dubs to shows. Hell, there are dubs I enjoy just as much as the sub (if not more sometimes).

But when I’m talking with a fan (hardcore otaku purist) and he says, in all sincerity, that “the only good dub that exists is DBZ” then, sorry but you’re (general you) are blinded by nostalgia and nothing else.

To be frank, I don’t care if that hurts your feelings. Not everything is directed at you.

[MasenkoHA]

I constantly read rude comments on social media about “granny” Goku and the like.

Every time someone refers to Nozawa as “Granny Goku” I know they never bothered to listen to the performance and just based their opinions on seeing a photo of Nozawa. Either that or Funi dub fans have no idea what an old woman sounds like (which is possible since they think Nadolny’s Gohan is believable as a young boy and Clinkenbeard is too feminine)

Behold a grandma:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0aP55TeuDGA

Like yeah it’s obviously a woman doing the voice but it sounds no different than any female voice actress voicing a male character. Obviously it’s not comparable to Chi Chi or Bulma.

[8000 Saiyan]

Regarding Clinkenbeard, she does sound a bit feminine at times despite her Gohan being a good performance.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Regarding Clinkenbeard, she does sound a bit feminine at times despite her Gohan being a good performance.

I mean, even though it is effectively more or less her Luffy voice albeit a bit different and less rougher sounding which is her standard performance for boy characters.

[Planetnamek]

Xanatos-Not being "defensive" here just because I think you're dead wrong in this instance , i'm just growing tired of these debates that i've seen play out time and time again amongst the DB fandom. Seems like you're the defensive one here that needs to "Calm the fuck down"(Especially given how perpetually angry you still seem to be at the dub and its fans despite the fact that it ended well over a decade ago, methinks you need some anger management )

People disliked the Orange Bricks for a variety of reasons and no it's not true that it was the first time the original score got criticized, that's revisionist history right there as this was happening well before the bricks came out(it was frequently brought up on fansites like DBZU2)

I don't think changing the music was stupid personally, but I get why others didn't like it.

Newsflash, not every single person that does not blindly agree with you on DB has "their feelings hurt"

My feelings ain't "hurt" bro , i'm just getting sick and tired of these pointless debates and the rampant elitism that always seems to come with them.

If you think that kind of disrespect towards the original is only unique to DB then you haven't been hanging around other anime fandoms enough, I myself have seen this all the time with Yu-Gi-Oh and Sailor Moon.

I will cop to preferring Vollmer and Young(and preferring Goku to sound like a dude), but i'm not going to be begging Funi to bring them back because I know how pointless that is.

Never once claimed anything you said was "Directed towards me", that's just you projecting.

[GhostEmperorX]

The hate for the Kikuchi score is mUh NoStAlGiA!!!!!1! nothing more nothing less.

I fail to see how liking Faulconer's soundtrack automatically means one isn't critical on things like audio quality, that makes zero sense

Also this notion that "nostalgia" is the ONLY possible reason that someone could be kind of eh on the original score is blatantly false , you've got absolutely no possible of way proving that for an absolute cold hard fact.

I also find it amusing how many people stereotype the Funi soundtrack as being nothing but hardcore rock and techno when in reality that's far from being the case as there are plenty of slower and more melodic moments as well.

He's right though, you should have more nuanced explanations when you say this stuff. Like seeing exactly why people wouldn't like either one of them. Or what their standards may be. Prevents a lot of misunderstanding, even if some dub fans do give absurd explanations like "guitar is cooler than orchestra" and what not.
Granted, I do disagree a lot with the concept of replacement scores unless the production is a co-operation between North American (or otherwise Western) and Japanese companies (like some card game toy series for example). If it's completely Japanese and not an adaptation, it shouldn't be replaced.

. Even the Ocean dub apparently didn't completely replace it, it just fused it with some of their own tracks.

With the exception of the 3 movies under Pioneer any dub with the Ocean cast completely replaced the music.

Switching audio between one of the versions, some Kikuchi tracks are still there, just awkwardly mixed in with the Wasserman score.

[MasenkoHA]

Switching audio between one of the versions, some Kikuchi tracks are still there, just awkwardly mixed in with the Wasserman score.

Maybe in some fan edit? The actual dub never used the Kikuchi music period (Pioneer movies aside)

[ZeroNeonix]

What is this strawman BS? Who said the original Japanese score was bad? I don't hate it. The quality of the recordings are bad, but the score itself is perfectly fine. Just not my taste. I just think the Faulconer score suits it better. And I find it rich this is coming from the people elevating their opinions above others, saying I and others have no taste, or that the Faulconer score is "objectively" bad. Give me a break.

[Planetnamek]

What is this strawman BS? Who said the original Japanese score was bad? I don't hate it. The quality of the recordings are bad, but the score itself is perfectly fine. Just not my taste. I just think the Faulconer score suits it better. And I find it rich this is coming from the people elevating their opinions above others, saying I and others have no taste, or that the Faulconer score is "objectively" bad. Give me a break.

Exactly, that's the problem with a portion of loud sub fans(including some on here), they assume that anyone that does not think just like them must HATE the original when in reality that's not the case at all.

[SpiritBombTriumphant]

Jesus Christ, people.

Kei is under NO obligation to share the audio. NONE. Fan entitlement is a moronic fucking thing.

I'm not saying he owes it to us, but he should do it for the good of the community. If it wasn't for the girl who did end up sharing it (who received death threats for the upload), we wouldn't have broadcast audio for DBZ. Besides, it's not like Toei gives a shit. They didn't care to even accept broadcast audio recordings for DBZ when presented the opportunity. They didn't bother to properly preserve DB or DBZ's film. They didn't bother to preserve the audio properly. They didn't bother to properly place Kikuchi in Kai. They didn't bother to even half-ass Boo Kai. They didn't bother to give Funimation the proper video master for DBS Broly. They wouldn't bother to go after someone for uploading high quality audio recordings of a 30+ year old TV show.

So does Kei17 owe us his audio recordings? No. But so that fans around the world can experience DB as close to the original TV broadcast as possible, he should share it if he actually does have it. The fact that he holds it and held DBZ's broadcast audio hostage just means he's an asshole, and perhaps greedy. There were people (from what I've heard) who would sell episodes of DBZ's broadcast audio online. They are the ones responsible for the death threats against the girl who uploaded it online for killing their golden goose. It wouldn't surprise me at all if a similar situation is going on now.

This is something I've been wondering for a while. Anyone think that a part of the reason some people hate the Japanese score for Z so much is that they're listening to optical audio which sounds like shit in general?

That may be it, in which case Toei is largely to blame once again.

Yeah, I've seen the entire series in Japanese with optical audio. It took me until Freeza's arrival on Earth with "The Fearsome Ginyu Special Force" theme playing to start liking it. However, now that I have the series with broadcast audio, I REALLY am liking Kikuchi's music a lot more. I think it may in part really be the shit quality audio Toei preserved.

[VegettoEX]

Besides, it's not like Toei gives a shit.

The C&Ds I've received in the past say otherwise.

It's real easy for all y'all to sit back and say "FUCK IT RELEASE EVERYTHING YAAAAAAAAAAY NO CONSEQUENCES FOR AAAAAANYTHIIIIIIIIING".

[Planetnamek]

It's not just DB Toei has been careless with either, they also refused to allow ADV access to proper masters for Sailor Moon for their 2004 sub releases, which resulted in them looking like crap. So this is a consistent trend with them, they always put money first and everything else second.

Besides, it's not like Toei gives a shit.

The C&Ds I've received in the past say otherwise.

It's real easy for all y'all to sit back and say "FUCK IT RELEASE EVERYTHING YAAAAAAAAAAY NO CONSEQUENCES FOR AAAAAANYTHIIIIIIIIING".

Really? What did you receive C&D's for just out of curiosity?

[Dbzfan94]

I'm not saying he owes it to us, but he should do it for the good of the community. If it wasn't for the girl who did end up sharing it (who received death threats for the upload), we wouldn't have broadcast audio for DBZ. Besides, it's not like Toei gives a shit. They didn't care to even accept broadcast audio recordings for DBZ when presented the opportunity. They didn't bother to properly preserve DB or DBZ's film. They didn't bother to preserve the audio properly. They didn't bother to properly place Kikuchi in Kai. They didn't bother to even half-ass Boo Kai. They didn't bother to give Funimation the proper video master for DBS Broly. They wouldn't bother to go after someone for uploading high quality audio recordings of a 30+ year old TV show.

So does Kei17 owe us his audio recordings? No. But so that fans around the world can experience DB as close to the original TV broadcast as possible, he should share it if he actually does have it. The fact that he holds it and held DBZ's broadcast audio hostage just means he's an asshole, and perhaps greedy. There were people (from what I've heard) who would sell episodes of DBZ's broadcast audio online. They are the ones responsible for the death threats against the girl who uploaded it online for killing their golden goose. It wouldn't surprise me at all if a similar situation is going on now.

This is exctly why Kei left this forum the first time. No need for the guilt trips.

[GhostEmperorX]

I'm not saying he owes it to us, but he should do it for the good of the community. If it wasn't for the girl who did end up sharing it (who received death threats for the upload), we wouldn't have broadcast audio for DBZ. Besides, it's not like Toei gives a shit. They didn't care to even accept broadcast audio recordings for DBZ when presented the opportunity. They didn't bother to properly preserve DB or DBZ's film. They didn't bother to preserve the audio properly. They didn't bother to properly place Kikuchi in Kai. They didn't bother to even half-ass Boo Kai. They didn't bother to give Funimation the proper video master for DBS Broly. They wouldn't bother to go after someone for uploading high quality audio recordings of a 30+ year old TV show.

All that is true about Toei's incompetent actions, and stuff like that is why Go Nagai left them in the 70's (something Toriyama probably should have done as well), however...

So does Kei17 owe us his audio recordings? No. But so that fans around the world can experience DB as close to the original TV broadcast as possible, he should share it if he actually does have it. The fact that he holds it and held DBZ's broadcast audio hostage just means he's an asshole, and perhaps greedy. There were people (from what I've heard) who would sell episodes of DBZ's broadcast audio online. They are the ones responsible for the death threats against the girl who uploaded it online for killing their golden goose. It wouldn't surprise me at all if a similar situation is going on now.

They're really not going to let him do that anyway, whether he wants to or not. He wants to find the right way to release it, even if Toei animation is a really stubborn studio. And for the other ones who wanted to sell it that aren't Toei or Akira Toriyama? That's basically a massive copyright breach because they're making money off content they don't own, regardless of Toei's treatment of the IP.

Yeah, I've seen the entire series in Japanese with optical audio. It took me until Freeza's arrival on Earth with "The Fearsome Ginyu Special Force" theme playing to start liking it. However, now that I have the series with broadcast audio, I REALLY am liking Kikuchi's music a lot more. I think it may in part really be the shit quality audio Toei preserved.

I wonder if that's even a Ginyu Special Squadron theme considering variations of it appeared earlier in the show and it's just used for battles in general.

Spoiler:

The C&Ds I've received in the past say otherwise.

It's real easy for all y'all to sit back and say "FUCK IT RELEASE EVERYTHING YAAAAAAAAAAY NO CONSEQUENCES FOR AAAAAANYTHIIIIIIIIING".

And there you have it, folks. That's just how it happens to be in Japan. Toei even copyright strikes Golion of all things, a property that they sold off to WEP ages ago.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Posts like SpiritBombTriumphant make me wish Kei held on to the audio forever. Go Kei! You can do it!

[jjgp1112]

Jesus Christ, people.

Kei is under NO obligation to share the audio. NONE. Fan entitlement is a moronic fucking thing.

I'm not saying he owes it to us, but he should do it for the good of the community.

...so in other words, you're saying that he owes it to us.

[Kakacarrottop]

Like when it comes to being more modern the Faulconer Productions OST has a lot more going for it than the Kikuchi score which goes for a more old-timey kind of thing. Even in the era it debuted in, it was still a mismatch of content of the time. Faulconer Production's used the latest synth tech to create an atmospheric kind of OST.

The fight scenes are easily a lot better in Faulconer's because they are more engaging, diverse, and play with more energy which matches what's being portrayed on screen vs the Kikuchi score which has a lot of very slow brass sounds "DUN DUN DUN....!".

Even the calmer music is better especially on the slice of life moments where it feels cheery and peaceful.

The fact also that they were not hindered by making something specific for the OST but what they felt would fit the scenes on the screen and carefully created on each second really sends it a step above the traditional approach.

What do you think?

I was heavily exposed to the Faulconer score as a kid in the early 2000s and I liked it a lot then. But now I can't listen to it. It's trying to be something radically different to the point of absurdity. That combined with the obnoxious fans has made me not even like it as music anymore.

[Planetnamek]

Like when it comes to being more modern the Faulconer Productions OST has a lot more going for it than the Kikuchi score which goes for a more old-timey kind of thing. Even in the era it debuted in, it was still a mismatch of content of the time. Faulconer Production's used the latest synth tech to create an atmospheric kind of OST.

The fight scenes are easily a lot better in Faulconer's because they are more engaging, diverse, and play with more energy which matches what's being portrayed on screen vs the Kikuchi score which has a lot of very slow brass sounds "DUN DUN DUN....!".

Even the calmer music is better especially on the slice of life moments where it feels cheery and peaceful.

The fact also that they were not hindered by making something specific for the OST but what they felt would fit the scenes on the screen and carefully created on each second really sends it a step above the traditional approach.

What do you think?

I was heavily exposed to the Faulconer score as a kid in the early 2000s and I liked it a lot then. But now I can't listen to it. It's trying to be something radically different to the point of absurdity. That combined with the obnoxious fans has made me not even like it as music anymore.

There's plenty of obnoxious fans of the original score too, does not mean I hold that against it, that's just silly.

[Captain Awesome]

It's a shame the broadcast audio has all of this associated drama with it because I love that I've been able to remux my R2s with the superior audio.

If that's as good as DBZ gets I can live with it.

[Kunzait_83]

i'm just getting sick and tired of these pointless debates and the rampant elitism that always seems to come with them.

Serious, genuine question: can we like nail down a concrete, definitive answer on what exactly we all mean here when we use the word "elitism" in these kinds of conversations?

Because the word actually DOES have a real, solidly specific dictionary definition, and I've long (and I mean LONG) gotten the impression that in most all DB/anime dub vs sub discussions, people just throw it around simply as a shorthand for "you said something I disagree with and its making me feel massively insecure and hyper-defensively self-conscious to the point where I'm going to just blanket assume that you're looking down your nose at me and being condescending, regardless of whether or not you've actually said anything to indicate that even remotely".

Its the rhetorical equivalent of someone responding to an otherwise benign, inconsequential statement with "WHAT, YOU THINK YOU'RE BETTER THAN ME?! IS THAT WHAT YOU THINK?! CAUSE YOU'RE NOT BETTER THAN ME!!" Kind of like how people assume, no matter *what* the circumstances or context, than anyone who is vegan or a teetotaler is always universally judging and looking down on everyone else purely by nature of their simply being a vegan or teetotaler.

Basically, the word elitist/elitism within these sub/dub discussions has come to lose any and all meaning apart from "you said a thing I didn't like and its making me feel judged and attacked!"