"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Michsi]

I'm curious to see if my prediction of splitting this form in two is just so that Vegeta can have his moment between Goku's first attempt and possible second and final one? I was started to agree that they might actually lead up to Vegeta having the final battle, but now I'm not so sure.

This is a good point. I think it can go 2 ways, the first being like you said, Vegeta taking over mid way through, only to lose and that being what pushes Goku into MUI. It could also go another way, Goku gives it his all like he did against Broly but never manages to tap into MUI, leaving the door open for Vegeta to take the win (with help from Merus).

The Merus and Vegeta combo doesn't make a lot of narrative sense to me since Merus spent more time with Goku, but the rest seems plausible. Goku not mastering UI fully in this arc would be a way for them to keep this form interesting longer.

I both look forward and dread Vegeta's arrival, since I fear he is either going to be overpowered or underwhelming.

[MCDaveG]

I don't know what problem people have with character reactions... People these days are like ''man, they are doing new stuff, they destroyed my childhood because blah blah...'' vs ''man, they are doing the same old stuff, I am bored because bla bla...''

Myself, I did find hilarious No. 18's comment, as everyone is on their edge and she is like: ''Damn, they don't pay us enough money.''
It is stuff like this that made me love the Director's Cut of Battle Of Gods and DB FighterZ, the characters...

I do even understand after ToP, that Roshi went to his old days as he trained himself just for that tournament as the world he loves was at brink of possible destruction and now he is back to enjoying life

[Alruneia]

I both look forward and dread Vegeta's arrival, since I fear he is either going to be overpowered or underwhelming.

Ha, yeah... In Norwegian we have a term called "å gruglede seg", which essentially translates to being both worried and excited about something that's coming up. To be... "worryxcited", I guess. And for me, at least, it's been a long time since it applied as much to something Dragon Ball-related as it does to this. I still believe that Merus will show up again at a crucial moment and be the one to trigger Goku's full UI, and Vegeta's role is pretty much unknown in that situation. So I can't wait to see what Vegeta will do, but I'm also worried it'll be too much or too little and end up being bad.

[Dragon Ball Gus]

So we're not gonna discuss the lack of Buu in the second half of this arc? Do you guys really not care about Buu?

[The Undying]

I keep thinking that UI Omen (I don't like "Sign", but I think I'll have to convert eventually) becoming a form is our fault.

It's nobody's fault. If folks are displeased with the form having two stages, that ship has long sailed.

I don't see the problem, and I think it's a far better alternative than having Goku come at Moro with a fully mastered auto-dodge mode right out of the gate. It's almost too broken. There's more tension in having him use an ability he doesn't have a firm hold on yet.

[Noitsnothim]

So we're not gonna discuss the lack of Buu in the second half of this arc? Do you guys really not care about Buu?

Feel like buu will appear to fight but as Daikaio and Seventhree will copy his abilities

[Kagari]

I don't know what problem people have with character reactions... People these days are like ''man, they are doing new stuff, they destroyed my childhood because blah blah...'' vs ''man, they are doing the same old stuff, I am bored because bla bla...''

Myself, I did find hilarious No. 18's comment, as everyone is on their edge and she is like: ''Damn, they don't pay us enough money.''
It is stuff like this that made me love the Director's Cut of Battle Of Gods and DB FighterZ, the characters...

I do even understand after ToP, that Roshi went to his old days as he trained himself just for that tournament as the world he loves was at brink of possible destruction and now he is back to enjoying life

People have a problem because Toyotarou himself has a problem of properly writing the characters and has since the manga's inception. Let's take the 18 line yo mentioned, for example. Instead of something new, she's been distilled into a moneygrubbing wretch. And that seems to be her only character trait that keeps being brought up - it's natural fans would get tired of seeing only that and nothing else from her. The same goes for things like Roshi's perversion (which really has no place being a thing in 2020), Boo's sleeping gag, perpetually naive Goku, etc.

[Michsi]

I keep thinking that UI Omen (I don't like "Sign", but I think I'll have to convert eventually) becoming a form is our fault.

It's nobody's fault. If folks are displeased with the form having two stages, that ship has long sailed.

I don't see the problem, and I think it's a far better alternative than having Goku come at Moro with a fully mastered auto-dodge mode right out of the gate. It's almost too broken. There's more tension in having him use an ability he doesn't have a firm hold on yet.

Well, yes, UI technically should mean a sure win at this point, so in this way they maintain the hype around the form while still giving Goku something new. It's just that I don't think that ending the chapter with Omen as this big reveal is a good beat since it's a half form. I just hope this isn't a case of Goku holding back and that he has indeed not had enough time and training to reach the end goal.

So we're not gonna discuss the lack of Buu in the second half of this arc? Do you guys really not care about Buu?

I actually forgot about his involvement. I like the character well enough, and I enjoyed his fight, but...I didn't miss him or anything.

[Dragon Ball Gus]

So we're not gonna discuss the lack of Buu in the second half of this arc? Do you guys really not care about Buu?

Feel like Buu will appear to fight but as Daikaio.

Let's all hope.

[ShaggyBlanco]

So we're not gonna discuss the lack of Buu in the second half of this arc? Do you guys really not care about Buu?

I was hoping for him to came back in this arc but it seems that Merus will be the one to do something outside of Goku/Vegeta
But Merus can't fight so what if Buu absorbs him to help?

[Koitsukai]

So we're not gonna discuss the lack of Buu in the second half of this arc? Do you guys really not care about Buu?

Feel like buu will appear to fight but as Daikaio and Seventhree will copy his abilities

But vs Sign UI and/or Spirit Control Vegeta, 7-3 would still be a little toddler with Buu-Daikaioshin abilities, and although it wouldn't be enough, I think he'd be better off copying Gohan's abilities again. Or, Moro's or even Goku's or Vegeta's and then maybe have UI Goku vs Spirit Control 7-3 and Vegeta vs Moro.

I should re-read that part of the arc but wasn't Buu already useless when his magic was gone? Moro is much stronger now, maybe not even his magic would work. I see him coming back only to trap Moro with his magic, but that would be stupid because Moro has to die, he can't be confined again. Not after eating half a galaxy

[Miracles]

What could the Z gang do against Saganbo when their dog pile got tossed aside? Strategy works up to a point, like it did against 7-3. That was a great team effort. However, the plot escalated, they were no longer needed. Asking for the humans to unite Power Rangers style at that point is unreasonable. It only betrays the overall narrative of DB....Constant ladder climbing to showcase Goku and Vegeta's greatness.

Have the Artificial Humans attack from afar with ki blasts at varying tempos so as to keep Saganbo's mind busy having to shift back and forth between tempos he isn't used to. This will mentally fatigue him. From there, Gohan and Piccolo can bide their time for the moments that Saganbo's footing is off and then strike him hard. If the Muten Roushi is available, have him use hypnosis to put Saganbo to sleep. Hell, have him and Tenshinhan do a combined Bikkuri Shou to keep Saganbo paralyzed so that the others can strike him hard and fast. With all that voltage hitting his brain Saganbo's motor skills will likely collapse, which will make it easier for him to fall from physical attacks, too. Have Chaozu throw some sort of new illusion technique at Saganbo, too.

Have those combinations take out Saganbo and then reveal that they won't work on Moro because he paid attention to how they work. From there, Moro can deliver a crushing morale blow: "If I hadn't seen all those techniques I would have definitely lost! But now I know your skills and you're all too fatigued as it is!" The key to building tension here is to actually make it seem like the protagonists were a simple hair from winning. This way, Moro could potentially be defeated but simply happened to not be defeated.

Loads if this were just about any other shonen series. And in those series like Dragon Ball where teamwork never works there's usually a much smaller cast and the solutions to problems aren't so obvious.

What could the Z gang do against Saganbo when their dog pile got tossed aside? Strategy works up to a point, like it did against 7-3. That was a great team effort. However, the plot escalated, they were no longer needed. Asking for the humans to unite Power Rangers style at that point is unreasonable. It only betrays the overall narrative of DB....Constant ladder climbing to showcase Goku and Vegeta's greatness.

The only limitations are the imaginations of the writers.

What could the Z gang do against Saganbo when their dog pile got tossed aside? Strategy works up to a point, like it did against 7-3. That was a great team effort. However, the plot escalated, they were no longer needed. Asking for the humans to unite Power Rangers style at that point is unreasonable. It only betrays the overall narrative of DB....Constant ladder climbing to showcase Goku and Vegeta's greatness.

The only limitations are the imaginations of the writers.

This guys gets it.

I get where you guys are coming from. The problem with your desires is that it's contrary to DB narrative. The author's imagination is limited by the plot. DB is about raw power. No amount of teamwork will overcome that. Ants can not outpace a Dinosaur. The purpose of the chapter was to show how it was over for the side characters. The story escalated in the power realm, It's time to put the kids to bed let the grown ups do work.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

I get where you guys are coming from. The problem with your desires is that it's contrary to DB narrative. The author's imagination is limited by the plot. DB is about raw power. No amount of teamwork will overcome that. Ants can not overcome a Dinosaur. The purpose of the chapter was to show how it was over for the side characters. The story escalated in the power realm, It's time to put the kids to bed let the grown ups do work.

I get that. Pretty much everyone gets that Dragon Ball is about ubermensch and how peons can never amount to anything.

My comment was pointing out that in other series where there's only one or two characters capable of contributing to a fight only those characters feature/appear. Series like Fist of the North Star and Trigun and Saint Seiya keep a tight leash on the cast. Characters who are obsolete die or otherwise remove themselves from the plot. Dragon Ball on the other hand keeps bringing them back out in every arc regardless of whether better alternatives exist. It's a really perplexing move.

[YuseiFudou]

I'm curious, is 17 any different in terms of power compared to the anime?
It just seemed a bit off to me to see 17 worn out in one of the panels.

[JulieYBM]

I get where you guys are coming from. The problem with your desires is that it's contrary to DB narrative. The author's imagination is limited by the plot. DB is about raw power. No amount of teamwork will overcome that. Ants can not outpace a Dinosaur. The purpose of the chapter was to show how it was over for the side characters. The story escalated in the power realm, It's time to put the kids to bed let the grown ups do work.

If Shin can use his telekinetic whatever to paralyze the much stronger Gohan there's no reason that four or five fighters can't defeat someone who is stronger than them individually.

Dragon Ball doesn't exist in a vacuum. We are being critical of the very fact that Toyo-tarou chooses for the plot be what it is.

[Koitsukai]

I'm curious, is 17 any different in terms of power compared to the anime?
It just seemed a bit off to me to see 17 worn out in one of the panels.

Yes, he is dramatically weaker in the manga. He is around SS3 Goku level in the manga, while in the anime he can spar with SSB Goku and aided by others fight stronger characters than himself like Toppo.

[Kagari]

I get where you guys are coming from. The problem with your desires is that it's contrary to DB narrative. The author's imagination is limited by the plot. DB is about raw power. No amount of teamwork will overcome that. Ants can not outpace a Dinosaur. The purpose of the chapter was to show how it was over for the side characters. The story escalated in the power realm, It's time to put the kids to bed let the grown ups do work.

I mean, a lot of the big conflicts in DB are solved by teamwork or unconventional means. Vegeta was a fight between Goku then Gohan, Kuririn and Yajirobe for example. Jiren was defeated by Goku, Freeza and 17. It's ignorant to count these other characters out when there is precedence for them mattering before - and some of them were given boosts in strength just in the arc prior. The only big "win" that happened out of power post Daimao is Gohan vs Cell. From Boo to everything in Super was solved using other means.

[Lionel]

I find the dinosaur/ant comparison a little odd. There's whole multitudes of varieties of both creatures. One of the smallest types of dinosaur, the Microraptor, is estimated to be only 40 cm long. Alternatively, the bulldog ant is considered to be one of the most dangerous, most aggressive, and largest varieties out there with a poison so toxic in its sting that there have been documented human fatalities from them.

It kind of alludes to the qualitative danger and tenacity of an organism, really. For someone like Gohan and Piccolo, the danger posed might have come in the form of their own esoteric abilities, namely the Mafuba. Toyotaro took the time to reincorporate back into the manga during the Future Trunks arc after not having seen it in decades. Why couldn't it have been executed here? I wonder why.

[Miracles]

I get where you guys are coming from. The problem with your desires is that it's contrary to DB narrative. The author's imagination is limited by the plot. DB is about raw power. No amount of teamwork will overcome that. Ants can not overcome a Dinosaur. The purpose of the chapter was to show how it was over for the side characters. The story escalated in the power realm, It's time to put the kids to bed let the grown ups do work.

I get that. Pretty much everyone gets that Dragon Ball is about ubermensch and how peons can never amount to anything.

My comment was pointing out that in other series where there's only one or two characters capable of contributing to a fight only those characters feature/appear. Series like Fist of the North Star and Trigun and Saint Seiya keep a tight leash on the cast. Characters who are obsolete die or otherwise remove themselves from the plot. Dragon Ball on the other hand keeps bringing them back out in every arc regardless of whether better alternatives exist. It's a really perplexing move.

I see. I don't think it's that perplexing. DB keeps bringing the humans back to be used as servants for the plot.
For growing/aiding Goku, Vegeta and the antagonists's purpose. This is why they stick around but I believe this chapter has changed that.

I get where you guys are coming from. The problem with your desires is that it's contrary to DB narrative. The author's imagination is limited by the plot. DB is about raw power. No amount of teamwork will overcome that. Ants can not outpace a Dinosaur. The purpose of the chapter was to show how it was over for the side characters. The story escalated in the power realm, It's time to put the kids to bed let the grown ups do work.

If Shin can use his telekinetic whatever to paralyze the much stronger Gohan there's no reason that four or five fighters can't defeat someone who is stronger than them individually.

Dragon Ball doesn't exist in a vacuum. We are being critical of the very fact that Toyo-tarou chooses for the plot be what it is.

That's true. However, Toyotaro can't negate what's been established in the story. Take your Shin and Gohan example for instance. Shin was strong enough to defeat someone like Freeza in one blow. So him restraining Gohan isn't far fetched. Having the Z warriors do that to someone like Saganbo, who was taking hits from UI omen Goku after laughing off the entire team at the same time would be plot suicide.

Remember that time Chautzu tried to use Telekinesis on Nappa but failed? Yeah, the Saganbo situation is the same. He is so far out their weight class they couldn't do anything to stop him.

I get where you guys are coming from. The problem with your desires is that it's contrary to DB narrative. The author's imagination is limited by the plot. DB is about raw power. No amount of teamwork will overcome that. Ants can not outpace a Dinosaur. The purpose of the chapter was to show how it was over for the side characters. The story escalated in the power realm, It's time to put the kids to bed let the grown ups do work.

I mean, a lot of the big conflicts in DB are solved by teamwork or unconventional means. Vegeta was a fight between Goku then Gohan, Kuririn and Yajirobe for example. Jiren was defeated by Goku, Freeza and 17. It's ignorant to count these other characters out when there is precedence for them mattering before - and some of them were given boosts in strength just in the arc prior. The only big "win" that happened out of power post Daimao is Gohan vs Cell. From Boo to everything in Super was solved using other means.

True. However the teamwork efforts you mentioned were circumstantial. Gohan and Krillin was against a Vegeta who was on life support. Same with Jiren against Goku and Freeza who were relatively on the same level. When the out of range opponent for the Z warriors is weakened it's a possibility they could come back in. Who knows how Moro may be defeated. The original plan to seal him up might come back into play and Piccolo can use the Mafuba maybe. However for team Z to get involved it requires such special situations.

[Skar]

I mean, a lot of the big conflicts in DB are solved by teamwork or unconventional means. Vegeta was a fight between Goku then Gohan, Kuririn and Yajirobe for example. Jiren was defeated by Goku, Freeza and 17. It's ignorant to count these other characters out when there is precedence for them mattering before - and some of them were given boosts in strength just in the arc prior. The only big "win" that happened out of power post Daimao is Gohan vs Cell. From Boo to everything in Super was solved using other means.

I think what Miracles means is that teamwork can only go so far if the power difference is too great. There aren't many examples of a group of characters defeating a stronger opponent without a technique that overpowers them. Goku and Piccolo used teamwork against Raditz but they needed the Special Beam Cannon which was far stronger than them to kill Raditz. The Z fighters used teamwork to cut off Vegeta's tail but they still needed the Spirit Bomb and Oozaru Gohan to weaken him enough so he doesn't kill them after losing Oozaru. Freeza accidentally cut himself in half because he was getting desperate after being overpowered by SSJ Goku. The teamwork used against Kid Buu was in order to buy enough time and overpower him with the Spirit Bomb. If UI Goku hadn't already weakened Jiren, the group attack against him would've been useless.