Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

Your wrong again. What I posted is actually from the story. Saying one is dimensions above, is just another way of saying someone is way stronger; on another level;. As the entire chapter showcases and states.

Dimensions above is not the same as being much stronger no.

Move on now, you're waffling.

I'm moving on with the facts...

Spoiler:

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P12.3-4
Context: after Piccolo resigns from his and Kaioshin's match
Goku: “That much, Piccolo?...”
Piccolo: “Yeah…Our dimensions…are too different…”
Kuririn: “Yo-you’re kidding, right? Stop joking around! I-I’ve got to fight him next.”
Note: Piccolo’s line is a pretty standard way of saying that someone is stronger than you. You can find a lot of instances of people being described as in “a different dimension” throughout these quotes, like Tenshinhan talking about Super Saiyan Goku, or the narrator describing final form Freeza. In Viz the line is made vaguer (“He is a different order of being”), which makes it sound like Piccolo could just be talking about how Kaioshin is a super-god, rather than about his strength per-say. Anyway, though Piccolo is pretty much flat-out saying Kaioshin is way stronger than him here, you could still argue that he's either mistaken or lying...I guess.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=15488

So guys, Saganbo was way stronger than Gohan and 17. 17 was stated to be as strong as Goku after the TOP.
Everyone at once couldn't hold him. Yet even with all those boosts Saganbo was still no match for Blue Goku.
Where would you rank him in the TOP?

[Thunderbird]

Android 17 was not stated to be as strong as Goku. Gohan was stated to be the strongest being on Earth while Goku and Vegeta weren't there and Gohan was more than implied to be weaker than Goku anyway.

Goku > Gohan > 17

[Hugo Boss]

I think whoever said Gohan was the strongest after Goku and Vegeta assumed these two were getting stronger while they were absent. It’s not exactly a confirmation that Gohan was weaker than Goku from before Merus’ training.

And I don’t think 17 was compared only to Goku, but rather to the range of the U7 top fighters as a whole. More or less a way of saying he was a top fighter as well, probably rank #4.

[Jmass97]

Android 17 was not stated to be as strong as Goku. Gohan was stated to be the strongest being on Earth while Goku and Vegeta weren't there and Gohan was more than implied to be weaker than Goku anyway.

Goku > Gohan > 17

Yes he does, he says “he’s about as strong as us”...here’s the link.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-8 ... 7dc95b61e4

At least try to go back and read lol. I agree that Gohan is stronger than 17 especially now but during the time of the TOP and a little after they were both in the same realm of power as Goku in Blue. Not even with, just in the same realm of strength.

[Koitsukai]

I agree the comment about 17 wasn't a direct comparison to Goku but just to state his relevance, and not to be taken to heart like they are equals or anything. For instance in the spanish translation it reads "he is almost as strong as we are", another one says something like "how can he be so close to us in power?". And to be fair, based on what the ToP showed, it actually sounds like an overstatement.

I'd say Saganbo was around the False SSBBKK Goku or that Evolved SSB Vegeta.

[Jmass97]

I agree the comment about 17 wasn't a direct comparison to Goku but just to state his relevance, and not to be taken to heart like they are equals or anything. For instance in the spanish translation it reads "he is almost as strong as we are", another one says something like "how can he be so close to us in power?". And to be fair, based on what the ToP showed, it actually sounds like an overstatement.

I'd say Saganbo was around the False SSBBKK Goku or that Evolved SSB Vegeta.

I agree but I wouldn’t say it’s an overstatement. The manga just didn’t portray it properly like the anime did to be honest.

[Jmass97]

Do you guys think blue evolved Vegeta from the TOP is stronger than current improved blue goku? (In the manga of course)

[Koitsukai]

Do you guys think blue evolved Vegeta from the TOP is stronger than current improved blue goku? (In the manga of course)

I think new blue Goku should be above that, maybe if he were to fight Jiren again he wouldn't be able to beat him but he wouldn't be a joke to him either?

[Jmass97]

Do you guys think blue evolved Vegeta from the TOP is stronger than current improved blue goku? (In the manga of course)

I think new blue Goku should be above that, maybe if he were to fight Jiren again he wouldn't be able to beat him but he wouldn't be a joke to him either?

Yeah I want to say the same but it’s so hard to tell. I do agree with him probably not being so much of a Joke to Jiren but ultimately, blue just isn’t on that GOD+ level quite yet. I’m eagerly waiting for it though and hopefully it eventually happens. I wonder just how strong Vegeta will be once he arrives

[Thunderbird]

Yes he does, he says “he’s about as strong as us”...here’s the link.

"About as strong". He is not as strong. Krillin all but said that Gohan was not as strong as Goku and Gohan is stronger than 17.

[Jmass97]

Yes he does, he says “he’s about as strong as us”...here’s the link.

"About as strong". He is not as strong. Krillin all but said that Gohan was not as strong as Goku and Gohan is stronger than 17.

Did you not see the other part of my post where I said that he’s not even with Goku, but in the same realm of strength? Gohan is in that realm of strength as well. That’s backed by several different translations, narrations, etc. “About as strong” means in the same realm of power. I’m not disagreeing with what you’re saying it just sounds like your downplaying 17 a bit haha

[Miracles]

Exactly. 17 was in Goku's league. This is reinforced by Toriyama, telling TOEI, 17 has such potential, to battle Blue.
Goku even reiterates the same feeling in the manga. How 17 is about as strong as them yet doesn't even really train.

It is night and day in the Galactic Patrol arc. 17 with help is nowhere near Saganbo. He is obviously more powerful than any version of Blue Goku/Vegeta from the TOP. This really speaks to Moro's incredible battle power. Only a "smidgen" of his energy allowed him to do that.

[Jmass97]

Exactly. 17 was in Goku's league. This is reinforced by Toriyama, telling TOEI, 17 has such potential, to battle Blue.
Goku even reiterates the same feeling in the manga. How 17 is about as strong as them yet doesn't even really train.

It is night and day in the Galactic Patrol arc. 17 with help is nowhere near Saganbo. He is obviously more powerful than any version of Blue Goku/Vegeta from the TOP. This really speaks to Moro's incredible battle power. Only a "smidgen" of his energy allowed him to do that.

This. Do you think Goku will stand a chance with UI Omen?

[The Undying]

He is obviously more powerful than any version of Blue Goku/Vegeta from the TOP.

Hmm. If we're talking about Saganbo, I'm not sure I'd go that far.

17 is almost as strong as ToP Blue Goku, but the temporary power-stressed version of ToP Blue Goku is even stronger still ("temporary" is an important word here because it wasn't Goku's full power by default). I don't know how 17 compares there.

Evolved Blue Vegeta is far stronger than that, since he said his previous level of strength was nothing in comparison; therefore, 17 is nothing compared to evolved Blue Vegeta. Jiren also commented that his power was second only to Ultra Instinct Sign Goku.

I feel like there's more than enough room to put Saganbo somewhere in evolved Blue Vegeta's league. Maybe Saganbo is a bit stronger, but not necessarily by much. There's no way of telling.

This really speaks to Moro's incredible battle power. Only a "smidgen" of his energy allowed him to do that.

100% agreed. It's a good way of illustrating how much of a threat Moro actually is, as it's not just his magic that poses a problem anymore.

[Miracles]

Exactly. 17 was in Goku's league. This is reinforced by Toriyama, telling TOEI, 17 has such potential, to battle Blue.
Goku even reiterates the same feeling in the manga. How 17 is about as strong as them yet doesn't even really train.

It is night and day in the Galactic Patrol arc. 17 with help is nowhere near Saganbo. He is obviously more powerful than any version of Blue Goku/Vegeta from the TOP. This really speaks to Moro's incredible battle power. Only a "smidgen" of his energy allowed him to do that.

This. Do you think Goku will stand a chance with UI Omen?

The way the story is flowing, having Vegeta as a big instrument to combat Moro, I don't think so.

He is obviously more powerful than any version of Blue Goku/Vegeta from the TOP.

Hmm. If we're talking about Saganbo, I'm not sure I'd go that far.

17 is almost as strong as ToP Blue Goku, but the temporary power-stressed version of ToP Blue Goku is even stronger still ("temporary" is an important word here because it wasn't Goku's full power by default). I don't know how 17 compares there.

Evolved Blue Vegeta is far stronger than that, since he said his previous level of strength was nothing in comparison; therefore, 17 is nothing compared to evolved Blue Vegeta. Jiren also commented that his power was second only to Ultra Instinct Sign Goku.

I feel like there's more than enough room to put Saganbo somewhere in evolved Blue Vegeta's league. Maybe Saganbo is a bit stronger, but not necessarily by much. There's no way of telling.

Yep, you are right. I did some rechecking and I forgot about Vegeta's evolved versions stated to be nothing compared to his previous blue level. Coupled with Jiren's comment about Vegeta's new power, being second to UI omen. It's also ironic how you brought up Goku stressing his body out for more power in the TOP and he addresses Moro/Saganbo about the same mistake. Yeah, Saganbo is somewhere in between that power as you demonstrated.

100% agreed. It's a good way of illustrating how much of a threat Moro actually is, as it's not just his magic that poses a problem anymore.

I'm hyped up for Moro!

[MechaTrunks]

Exactly. 17 was in Goku's league. This is reinforced by Toriyama, telling TOEI, 17 has such potential, to battle Blue.
Goku even reiterates the same feeling in the manga. How 17 is about as strong as them yet doesn't even really train.

It is night and day in the Galactic Patrol arc. 17 with help is nowhere near Saganbo. He is obviously more powerful than any version of Blue Goku/Vegeta from the TOP. This really speaks to Moro's incredible battle power. Only a "smidgen" of his energy allowed him to do that.

???
The battle between SSJ Blue Goku and #17 was just Toei using the SSJ Blue against anyone. Heck, even Krilin fought against SSJBlue Goku fairly well in the anime!
In the manga (which is what we're speaking about when comparing #17 to Saganbo) #17 only fought vs SSJ3 Goku and it was implied to be above him, but there wasn't a single feat of him surpassing or even reaching the god form levels.

[Hugo Boss]

Obviously, Goku can’t sense 17 energy, but he can tell by their mutual experience how far 17 can go. There is nothing really supporting that Goku was wrong. His claims in this aspect are very objective.

[Miracles]

Exactly. 17 was in Goku's league. This is reinforced by Toriyama, telling TOEI, 17 has such potential, to battle Blue.
Goku even reiterates the same feeling in the manga. How 17 is about as strong as them yet doesn't even really train.

It is night and day in the Galactic Patrol arc. 17 with help is nowhere near Saganbo. He is obviously more powerful than any version of Blue Goku/Vegeta from the TOP. This really speaks to Moro's incredible battle power. Only a "smidgen" of his energy allowed him to do that.

???
The battle between SSJ Blue Goku and #17 was just Toei using the SSJ Blue against anyone. Heck, even Krilin fought against SSJBlue Goku fairly well in the anime!
In the manga (which is what we're speaking about when comparing #17 to Saganbo) #17 only fought vs SSJ3 Goku and it was implied to be above him, but there wasn't a single feat of him surpassing or even reaching the god form levels.

Goku stated 17 was as strong as him. TOEI said Toriyama gave 17 such ability to fight Blue.
This is a unanimous decision of the producers of the product. Besides, 17 didn't even fight SSJ3, the fight was stopped.

[Jmass97]

Exactly. 17 was in Goku's league. This is reinforced by Toriyama, telling TOEI, 17 has such potential, to battle Blue.
Goku even reiterates the same feeling in the manga. How 17 is about as strong as them yet doesn't even really train.

It is night and day in the Galactic Patrol arc. 17 with help is nowhere near Saganbo. He is obviously more powerful than any version of Blue Goku/Vegeta from the TOP. This really speaks to Moro's incredible battle power. Only a "smidgen" of his energy allowed him to do that.

???
The battle between SSJ Blue Goku and #17 was just Toei using the SSJ Blue against anyone. Heck, even Krilin fought against SSJBlue Goku fairly well in the anime!
In the manga (which is what we're speaking about when comparing #17 to Saganbo) #17 only fought vs SSJ3 Goku and it was implied to be above him, but there wasn't a single feat of him surpassing or even reaching the god form levels.

It’s the truth just accept it lol we were talking about the manga anyway so I don’t know what you mean exactly. I only said the anime backs up Goku’s statement from the manga as well as the creators statements. His word and the material that backs it > people who won’t accept it.

[MechaTrunks]

Goku stated 17 was as strong as him. TOEI said Toriyama gave 17 such ability to fight Blue.
This is a unanimous decision of the producers of the product. Besides, 17 didn't even fight SSJ3, the fight was stopped.

Yes, I didn't recall that statement (I don't know the DBS manga as well as the original one unfortunately) so there's nothing to be discussed here:
#17 is in the ballpark of the SSJ Blue, which unfortunately makes this Moro saga the worst written saga of the whole DBS manga and more resembling the pre-saiyan saga Dragon Ball than the level of writting we saw after it.

It’s the truth just accept it lol we were talking about the manga anyway so I don’t know what you mean exactly.

Yup, I didn't read the whole discussion so I missed the part where you said it was stated in the manga (which is effectively the case and I completely forget).
I was never a fan of #17 increasing his strength, but once he did past the SSJ3 he could also reach the God forms if the uthor desired to do so.
The problem is that fight with Saganbo now, because or:
A - Gohan, Piccolo & A18 are also in the SSJBlue levels of power, wich I would find ridiculous and impossible for Gohan & Piccolo (for 18, once it's been done for 17, it's exactly the same although I think they shouldn't be able to increase their strength) and would break what we knew about them.
B - Toyotarou hasn't thought that scenario very well (my bet).
C - We'll be given some extra explanations that we actually like (I doubt that very much).

Regards.