Moro Arc

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
experted_luke
Newbie
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:48 pm

Moro Arc

Post by experted_luke » Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:33 pm

How are you guys liking the Moro Arc so far? What are your current high and low points of it? How does the development of the characters suit you? Who do you think will defeat Moro? Is there anything we, as the readers, should be worried about?

User avatar
JulieYBM
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 13294
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:25 pm
Contact:

Re: Moro Arc

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:47 pm

I think it's too poorly structured. The arc is about fifteen chapters long and we still don't have any sort of real character growth or resolved story threads. Toyo-tarou is too concerned with resolving things at the story climax. When your only two plot threads are: "Gokuu trains to learn to achieve Ultra Instinct at will" and "Vegeta trains to learn a technique that will defeat Moro" and none of this sees any resolution until the fifteenth monthly chapter of an arc there is a real issue. Each chapter is 45 pages but they all just feel like Toyo-tarou is running around in circles. There's no focus on investment in the fights between Piccolo and Moro's men.
She/Her | Bisexual | Fujoshi | Twitter: JulieYBM

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3024
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Moro Arc

Post by Miracles » Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:43 pm

Don't really care for it. Slow building, no good flow, it's not Toriyama like.
More modern Shounen esq, something you read out of one piece.
The more it went on the more I feel that Toyotaro is writing this letter himself.

I'm excited where we are now at this point in the story tho.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

User avatar
Grimlock
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6124
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Conton City

Re: Moro Arc

Post by Grimlock » Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:09 pm

Well, albeit I'm not following it closely, I can say that its high points were the beginning with the Dai Kaioshin and Majin Buu stuff and the Yadorats with the Dragon Ball Online's design (as it should be anyway).

Other than those, this saga doesn't seem any different from what we've seen countless times before. At first, I was interested in Moro as he could be Dragon Ball's Unicron/Galactus, but it turned out that he doesn't really eat planets like those two, he just eats their energy, which is "meh". My interest in him quickly died out as he doesn't use magic abilities too, which was something that could make him stand out from the other villains.

Right now I'm just patiently waiting for the saga to end to see what's next, hoping there won't be a next unless it is set around or after AGE 784.

User avatar
Robo4900
I Live Here
Posts: 3678
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:24 pm
Location: In another time and place...

Re: Moro Arc

Post by Robo4900 » Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:50 pm

To quote a certain NPC whose name I have long since forgotten, in the classic dystopian sci-fi comedy point and click adventure game Beneath A Steel Sky:
It's crap, son.
A somewhat self-indulgent thesis on my current outlook on Dragon Ball fandom, which I feel should be below every post I make from now on:

User avatar
Peach
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 283
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:57 am

Re: Moro Arc

Post by Peach » Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:03 am

I think it's very poorly written, much like the Zamasu arc and Tournament of Power. I would be much happier if Dragon Ball stuck to movies for new canon content.

User avatar
Robo4900
I Live Here
Posts: 3678
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:24 pm
Location: In another time and place...

Re: Moro Arc

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:37 am

Peach wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:03 am
I think it's very poorly written, much like the Zamasu arc and Tournament of Power. I would be much happier if Dragon Ball stuck to movies for new canon content.
Agreed. Their track record for movies is much better.

Plus, for an interquel whose stories are generally presented as standalones, it makes much more sense to present them as individual movies, instead of an ongoing series with no real continuity.
A somewhat self-indulgent thesis on my current outlook on Dragon Ball fandom, which I feel should be below every post I make from now on:

User avatar
Peach
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 283
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:57 am

Re: Moro Arc

Post by Peach » Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:23 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:37 am
Peach wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:03 am
I think it's very poorly written, much like the Zamasu arc and Tournament of Power. I would be much happier if Dragon Ball stuck to movies for new canon content.
Agreed. Their track record for movies is much better.

Plus, for an interquel whose stories are generally presented as standalones, it makes much more sense to present them as individual movies, instead of an ongoing series with no real continuity.
The movies have a quick, concise stories. They never drag on longer than they need to. I love them. If we got one every couple of years, that would be awesome.

They're definitely milking the fact that the Moro saga is monthly. Much like Toei did with the Tournament of Power being a saturday morning cartoon.

User avatar
Robo4900
I Live Here
Posts: 3678
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:24 pm
Location: In another time and place...

Re: Moro Arc

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:54 pm

Peach wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:23 pm
The movies have a quick, concise stories. They never drag on longer than they need to. I love them. If we got one every couple of years, that would be awesome.
Agreed. :thumbup:
Peach wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:23 pm
They're definitely milking the fact that the Moro saga is monthly. Much like Toei did with the Tournament of Power being a saturday morning cartoon.
Indeed.

I really wish the manga had instead just adapted the Broly storyline.
A somewhat self-indulgent thesis on my current outlook on Dragon Ball fandom, which I feel should be below every post I make from now on:

User avatar
Matches Malone
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1271
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:12 am

Re: Moro Arc

Post by Matches Malone » Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:14 pm

So far so good. Vegeta has gotten some character development. Moro has interesting abilities. Buu finally got to do something other than fall asleep. I really like Goku and Vegeta going their own ways with their training. I think it was a great idea to bring the Yardratians back into the picture. On the flip side, I think things have slowed down a bit too much since the last fight with Moro . I'm also not a fan of Goku mastering UI this fast. If they can stick the landing and end things on a high note, this will be a great move forward for modern DB, so let's hope they don't pull a Zamasu arc and mess it up.

User avatar
Lionel
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1822
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:54 am

Re: Moro Arc

Post by Lionel » Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:37 pm

Interesting premise but iffy execution. I liked the idea of incorporating Buu. Moro's esoteric modus operandi did take Goku and Vegeta by surprise but I feel like more could have been done to flesh out and diversify his abilities -- as it stands I'm probably more impressed by Babidi's magic because of its applications than Moro's, believe it not.

I would have liked to have seen something long-term come out of the humans, Gohan, and Piccolo training in preparation for this threat. Maybe there's still a chance. However, as it stands we seem poised to have things transition into the climax of the arc.

User avatar
Lord Beerus
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20935
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: A temple on a giant tree
Contact:

Re: Moro Arc

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:05 pm

I recently re-read this arc and...

...It's not holding up well in some aspects:
- Moro is terribly underwritten in terms of characterisation. Like, I thought Jiren was an under-cooked antagonist, but it took MONTHS before Moro displayed any kind of unique personality or quirks. And that would be at least excusable if there had been some kind of backstory to latch onto, but he doesn't have that.
- Dai Kaioshin bows out of the arc WAY too soon. Toyotaro could have use this as a great opportunity to provide some character growth for Majin Boo.
- The pacing is awful. There are too many chapters were large chunks of them have absolutely nothing of importance going on or the plot progressing in any way.
- Meerus felt like more of a prop than an actual character. He certainly served his purpose in the arc, but he had no discernible personality to latch onto or get invested in. The endgame of his character was basically to make Goku more powerful and help him master Ultra Instinct. And I felt that was more of a role that Beerus or Whis could have fulfilled.
- The introduction of the Galactic Prisoners feels like a waste. I can barely remember anything interesting about them, whether its characterisation or abilities.

..But it is holding up in other aspects:
- Moro brings a decent mythos with him and his abilities have led to some unique dynamics in terms of fighting him.
- Vegeta and Goku's character writing (for the most part) has been fantastic
- Everything about Chapter 52. The reveal of the Yardrats, the reveal of the Room Of Spirit & Time-esque domain that Goku and Meerus train in, the introduction of Spirit Control... all A+ material.
- The Earthlings fighting the Galactic Patrol was fun even if it very filler-ish and fanservice-y.

SSJgogeto
Regular
Posts: 594
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:11 pm

Re: Moro Arc

Post by SSJgogeto » Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:30 pm

While I like some things here and there, I can't say I like this arc as a whole.

User avatar
LoganForkHands73
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 182
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:54 pm

Re: Moro Arc

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:37 pm

It's been a weird one for sure. Simultaneously bold yet safe. I'd say it's been very enjoyable overall, but not always for the right reasons I guess. Like many have said, the structure has felt weaker than thin ribbons. First we're on Namek with Buu and Daikaioh and sinister old Moro and the Galactic Patrol, now we're on Earth with all the Z-Fighters with all these prisoner mooks and a less charismatic Moro. It almost feels like a different arc entirely, like we're stuck on a Universal Studios ride of "Dragon Ball's Best Bits" that's moved onto a different area.

But all that said, reading chapters every month has been a treat. Merus was a great little mystery and a cool new addition, there's been tonnes of lore and I have enjoyed all the appearances from past characters as a guilty pleasure, even if they've mostly been sidelined now. Their appearances were all worth it for the series' first true pan-global battle. It's been a genuinely pleasant surprise to see the stakes of this arc gradually increase to the current point.

I get the feeling that Toyo is trying to find his own style, his own stories to tell but he's still stuck in Toriyama's shadow. You can tell the pungent stench of a Dragon Ball fanboy had a role in the writing, since the initial set up of the characters going to New Namek with Buu and a villain that absorbs others sounds eerily similar to an unpublished fanfic logline I drafted out several years ago. So yeah...

User avatar
batistabus
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:55 pm
Location: Western Massachusetts

Re: Moro Arc

Post by batistabus » Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:23 pm

I think it's about as good as it could've been.

Toyotaro is by far the best we've seen at writing a Dragon Ball story aside from Toriyama. That has been the case throughout Super and it still is the case. He understands the characters and he understands the tone. Aside from effectively conveying the essence of Dragon Ball, Toyotaro is concerned with weaving together a lot of elements in clever ways. "Fan service" feels justified and not just shoehorned in haphazardly. Above all, the arc is fun. Even if there is some unnecessary "padding", or elements we know won't go anywhere, GT's biggest sin for me was that it was irredeemably boring. That's not the case here.

Even though I really enjoy Toyotaro's art, I do acknowledge that it does not live up to the work of Akira Toriyama. Would the manga have looked better in someone else's hands? Possibly. It hasn't been proven that DragonGarrowLee, Ooishi, or even YoungJiji can keep up a story with this many pages on such a tight schedule. The official continuation of Dragon Ball deserves a professional manga artist, not just a promoted fan artist, but who knows if they could handle the story side of things. Taking everything into consideration, I'm plenty satisfied with Toyotaro. Even if some of those other artists have a better technical understanding of illustration, or are better at mimicking Toriyama's style from certain periods, Toyotaro's works have an energy that I feel the others lack, and I'm comfortable saying that he is a solid cartoonist.

It seems that Toriyama is taking a back seat with this story, but we don't really now how involved he is. I haven't seen a lot of people confidently pin down which ideas are Toyo's and which are Tori's. We know it was Toriyama's idea to make Merus an angel, and that Toyotaro did the character design for Moro and Merus, but not much else.

I've really enjoyed Merus' role in the story. The reaction he got out of the community was fun to watch. Because he was a random alien that was so strong out of nowhere (and was seemingly a Toyotaro original character), anything "cool" could be interpreted as having a feeling of "fanfiction"/"OC bias". After the angel reveal (and frankly, the "Toriyama's Idea" seal of approval), attitudes seemed to change. I always thought he was cool...

My biggest complaint is that it's extremely derivative. It is to the strength and detriment of the arc. For obsessed fans like us who know the original series like the back of our hand, there's not a lot here that we haven't seen before and better. On the other hand, we're getting answers to decades-old questions and living out a part of the Dragon Ball Universe which we always knew about but could only imagine. The way the old lore is adapting to the new is interesting to watch. We know that this story has to match up with another film by Toriyama, and eventually the EoZ epilogue, so that inherently limits how wild and free this story can be.

I wonder how much planning of the story is done by the Dragon Ball Room. A lot of children are experiencing Dragon Ball for the first time with Super, so incorporating the "greatest hits" in this new story could be something desired from a business perspective. Still, despite the retread, there's enough different to keep me from rolling my eyes.

Either way, I think the Moro arc is a very interesting product. I think the story is fun, funny, and cool, but I'm equally interested in the meta aspect. As someone who has been so focused on the work of Toriyama, to see someone like Toyotaro take up the mantle is such an interesting dynamic. Their relationship, the way each of their visions comes through the story, and what will come next...

If this arc is animated, I expect it will be very popular.

User avatar
The Undying
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 167
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:47 pm

Re: Moro Arc

Post by The Undying » Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:58 pm

This is a bipolar story arc. If you asked me how I perceive it as a whole, I'd tell you it's my least favorite in the DBS manga by far, but I would also tell you it's rapidly getting better and has a fair bit to enjoy.

Its emphasis on secondary characters is confusing at best and totally frivolous at worst. It wants you to think Dai Kaioshin has some importance, but then he just... disappears, and Boo falls asleep again. It wants you to think the Earthling fighters matter, but 95% of the time they're barely contributing anything beyond fighting some fodder mooks for fanservice.

Its emphasis on primary characters is one of its strongest points. Their progression feels natural and in keeping with how Toriyama writes stories, Vegeta gets a damn solid continuation of his personal arc throughout DB and Super, and in general, all the characters are in-character. I wouldn't expect anything less from the Toyo-Tori duo.

Its Baphomet-inspired villain and Angel protagonist are interesting in theory but derivative in execution, although to their credit, they became more thematically involved as the story progressed.

Its pacing and structure are Toei levels of bad, with many chapters ending basically the same way they began, but it's still a more cohesively written package than anything Toei has done with Super. Said pacing has also improved dramatically in recent chapters, so that's a plus.

Its handling of DB lore and worldbuilding has been fantastic. Not much to say there.

That's my immediate comes-to-mind commentary. I don't want Toyotaro "coming into his own" if this somewhat middling level of quality is what can be expected from that. I want him to continue to work as collaboratively as humanly possible with Toriyama, and as someone who thoroughly enjoyed the manga's take on the Tournament of Power, I want him to continue employing similar pacing and plot structure as the manga's previous story arcs.
Formerly Marlowe89.

User avatar
Peach
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 283
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:57 am

Re: Moro Arc

Post by Peach » Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:19 am

The Undying wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:58 pm
This is a bipolar story arc. If you asked me how I perceive it as a whole, I'd tell you it's my least favorite in the DBS manga by far, but I would also tell you it's rapidly getting better and has a fair bit to enjoy.

Its emphasis on secondary characters is confusing at best and totally frivolous at worst. It wants you to think Dai Kaioshin has some importance, but then he just... disappears, and Boo falls asleep again. It wants you to think the Earthling fighters matter, but 95% of the time they're barely contributing anything beyond fighting some fodder mooks for fanservice.

Its emphasis on primary characters is one of its strongest points. Their progression feels natural and in keeping with how Toriyama writes stories, Vegeta gets a damn solid continuation of his personal arc throughout DB and Super, and in general, all the characters are in-character. I wouldn't expect anything less from the Toyo-Tori duo.

Its Baphomet-inspired villain and Angel protagonist are interesting in theory but derivative in execution, although to their credit, they became more thematically involved as the story progressed.

Its pacing and structure are Toei levels of bad, with many chapters ending basically the same way they began, but it's still a more cohesively written package than anything Toei has done with Super. Said pacing has also improved dramatically in recent chapters, so that's a plus.

Its handling of DB lore and worldbuilding has been fantastic. Not much to say there.

That's my immediate comes-to-mind commentary. I don't want Toyotaro "coming into his own" if this somewhat middling level of quality is what can be expected from that. I want him to continue to work as collaboratively as humanly possible with Toriyama, and as someone who thoroughly enjoyed the manga's take on the Tournament of Power, I want him to continue employing similar pacing and plot structure as the manga's previous story arcs.
I'm pretty disappointed by how the side characters are treated. It's almost exactly like their roles in the Frieza movie. Nothing more than glorified cameos, really.

I really like how Hunter x Hunter utilized its side characters. The narrative was split evenly. They made me care about this octopus being caught just as much as the two main characters. That's what i want in Dragon Ball. Characters fighting for their lives. Meaningful character development. Getting the edge with tactics. Not quick cameos.

User avatar
Koitsukai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1183
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Moro Arc

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:51 pm

I'm enjoying it, although I can't tell if it's because of reading one chapter every month and not following it closely or because it's actually good. I doubt the latter though, because many chapters (and characters) seem like they could be written out or done off-panel like Toyo seems to enjoy doing. It also calls for suspension of disbelief in order to make sense as much as any other arc of his and the off-panel fighting seems like is still a thing.

The pacing is really awful, it has gone nowhere for the past semester until last month which is crazy, Moro isn't really that attractive as an antagonist to spend chapters and chapters without him and I'm starting to have a problem with having now 15 chapters and no background on Moro. I'm wondering what are Beerus and Shin doing about this because after the ToP you'd expect they'd be more invested in what lowers the ranking of their universe, and they are aware of Moro because Whis is.

How I think it'll play out: we are getting two potential winners and one enemy, but one minion (7-3) is being save for some reason, I guess we could have a refreshing final fight with a 2 vs 2, if 7-3 grabs Goku, Vegeta or Moro.
I don't think Buu or Dai kaioshin will come back, considering Gohan and 17's input is already useless.
I'm not so sure I would like Merus to come back because his only contribution would have to be a stomp, and that'd be similar to the worst conclusion I've ever read/watched in fictional material (FT arc), because an angel, trainee or not, would still act like the Zeno on Zamasu. He is a nice addition though but if he only served to train Goku, that could've been done by Whis. So I don't know where to stand with him, if he comes back it has to be to fight (and of course take the win, he is an angel) but if he doesn't then his inclusion was just capricious.

Except for BoG, to me DBS has the worst conclusions possible in every arc, so this one has the chance to have the best one of the entire series if done right, I just hope they don't go all DBS on it, they haven't dropped the ball yet.

User avatar
Dragon Wukong
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 399
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:06 am

Re: Moro Arc

Post by Dragon Wukong » Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:27 pm

I like all the Buu/Grand Supreme Kai stuff, Moro as a villain, the resurgence of a few species we saw in the U6 tournament, but in U7, and the stuff with Merus. The Gohan/Piccolo teamwork was pretty cool, but besides that, all the earthling fights were meh. The issue is, it's hard for there to really be tension in general when we know for a fact everything is gonna be fine in the end.

theherodjl
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1513
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:12 pm
Location: The Planes of Lexington

Re: Moro Arc

Post by theherodjl » Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:52 pm

Moro was great...until he probably fucked himself by letting Goku & Vegeta complete their training as well as not wishing for immortality. I could see MUI Goku beating Moro in a one-on-one fight and Vegeta having learned some new way to nullify or resist Moro's energy absorption, then we got fusion which is undoubtedly a death sentence for Moro. Beerus could also just Hakai Moro and his entire posse away into oblivion so unfortunately, Goatboy doesn't stand a chance now due to his ego.
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - The Mad Hatter :think:

Post Reply