Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[DBZ Macky]

- SSG to me was above BoG SS3 Vegito, or at least above SS Vegito.
- Base Goku in RoF has to be high Z tier. Freeza in his 1st form one-shot Gohan, so his final form has to be around Buutenks/Buuhan level of power, and Goku was slightly above that.
- Cabba seemed equal in base and somewhat below SS Vegeta, which going with RoF's base form would make Cabba a beast that eats Z alive, and that sounds weird.
- Goku I think surpassed Beerus with MUI. With Sign I think he got up there with him, give or take a kiri.

Yeah, that makes sense to me, I have mostly the same opinion.
About RoF Freeza though, we know that 100% Freeza is roughly 225x First Form Freeza, and considering that First Form Freeza could one-shot SS Gohan, I'd say Base Goku and Freeza might be around Vegito's level easily, and perhaps even Super Vegito's because of that weirdly scaled fight against Tagoma with Base Gohan having a better performance than Piccolo and possibly even being as strong as his Ultimate Form.

I too have difficulty accepting Cabba and co. being stronger than Buu even in their base form, especially considering how they always make a big deal out of Buu's power level.
Not to mention, Beerus complementing an Enraged SS2 Vegeta on being incredibly strong would make absolutely no sense if there are dozens of characters from the neighbouring universe that are tens to hundreds of times stronger than that.
It always seemed to me personally that guys like Hit and Goku were outliers, and most of the weaker ToP roster was around Namek Freeza level (the strongest natural guy in Universe 7) with the stronger characters ranging largely between that level and the level of the gods.

I agree. I don't think Mecha Freeza has to be much stronger than his Namek self, being already in control of his FP could be enough to consider himself "stronger". Definitely not weaker though. Goku while not training on Yadrat, sure must gotten a huge zenkai boost after Namek.

I'm pretty sure there's a guide somewhere that basically states "Zenkai's weren't a thing anymore after Freeza / after Goku attaining Super Saiyan", paraphrasing of course, so I wouldn't think that it would've been a significant factor.
I can dig up a source if you don't know what I'm talking about

[ankokudaishogun]

About RoF Freeza though, we know that 100% Freeza is roughly 225x First Form Freeza

No, we don't.

Unlike SS transformations that have a minimum known multiplier, Freeza's forms are Holding Back™ forms without a stated specific multiplier.

There is nothing suggesting he was holding back the same amount as in Namek.

I mean: yeah, it's likely. But we don't _KNOW_ it for sure.

[Sadala Elite]

-Nah, DB has mechanically enhanced characters being much stronger than their previous self. Cyborg Tao was 5x stronger, the androids from humans to defeating SS, and of course Mecha Freeza with much, much, more advanced technology is not going to be the exception. Specially if he is so sure about it.
-Nobody said he was using a fraction of his power, not even Freeza boasted about it. Gohan saying he can become even stronger than the power they felt does not equate to your claims, after a year who wouldn't expect him to be able to do that? About Freeza, I'll go with Freeza's claim over Gohan's.

In the Cell saga the strongest of the androids was the only one that didn't had any mechanised part, so that argument can be spinned and is not a solid proof by itself.
I judge every character by the statements and feats/facts, and it's obvious that in terms of battle-androids, Guero's technology was above anything the Freezer army ever achieved.

We have a conflict of statements regarding Mecha Freezer: on one hand he is convinced he is stronger now, on the other, the ones sensing his energy think he isn't.
So besides siding with who we think is right (I would argue Gohan is the one being right, since Freezer can't sense energies and has no means of measuring kis), we have to look at the facts: Mecha Freezer was completely obliterated by someone with a strength comparable to SSJ Namek Goku, a fighter he was able to match in Namek despite being badly injured.

Injured 100% Namek Freezer = SSJ Namek Goku = SSJ Trunks >>>> Mecha Freezer going by the feats (and Gohan's statements).

-Trunks DID NOT exaggerate, there would be no need, they are not pacifists or skeptical and he already got Goku's trust, he would only need to bloat Goku's illness if anything.

I disagree on that. Even if they're not pacifists, they still were killed in the future TL because they weren't strong enough.
Trunks wanted to avoid the future repeating in the same way at any cost, and even if the z-warriors wouldn't have stopped training even if not being warned of the danger, with such an imposing menace it's obvious that they would double their efforts in preparing for the fight.

But Trunks exaggerating the strength of the androids makes a lot of sense once we know what his goal was and how he was as a character (he's not like the rest of the z-warriors. He tried to kill Cell while transforming, he tried to kill the androids in the lab before they could escape. He didn't want to enjoy a good fight, he just wanted to protect the future at any cost).

His comment after fight meant he never was one-shot like that, the future androids do not compare to the present ones, that's the subtext of it, not that he's been misinforming people all along. We know nothing about Cell's original timeline, we know power fluctuates from timeline to timeline, those assumptions are yours and yours only.

Trunks KILLED the future androids, that's why Cell had to come to the past in the first place.
If it was only Trunks's statement saying that (and even then, Trunks says he could fight the androids fairly well, implying that he was close to both of them, otherwise you wouldn't use that expresion to describe it), but the fact of him destroying the androids further proves that he was not exagerating: he could really fight the future androids with chances to win.

-Cell is made of Freeza, his dad, and the people that killed him. Being weaker as an adult than one of his donors is illogical and supported by nothing.

Perfect Cell was the best of the best of all of his donators, I never said that he was below Freezer.
Imperfect Cell was still not completed, he stil was not the perfect fighter he was designed to be, so he clearly could be inferior to any of his donators.

-The original timeline had SS Goku coming from Yadrat and killing Freeza and King Cold, that means Freeza's new power aided by his dad didn't prevent them from dying. And I bet they took Goku seriously that time. Even in Namek, Goku told him to heal, train and try it again some other time. He can't touch super saiyans, sorry.

True, but also had him dying much sooner implying that the SSJ wasn't enough to deafeat Cold.
Since Mecha Freezer only had a fraction of his original strength he would've been killed in the future TL as easily as he was in the Present one, just with Goku (or even Vegeta or Piccolo) ending his misery.

Nothing supports Freeza being powerwise relevant after Trunks was introduced.

On the opposite, Cell having Freezer cells is still spoken as a big deal by everyone, and knowing how many people had to absorb Cell in order to surpass kami-colo and the androids also gives us the reference we need to estimate the power of the SSJs.
It's in the cell saga that we can realise how injured Freezer was after the Genkidama and how strong he really was in comparison to regular, untrained SSJ.

Mecha Freeza was frequently stated and shown to be stronger than Namek saga Freeza in both the actual series and in every official guide like the Daizenshuu. Mecha Freeza was suppressed on Earth before the fight with Trunks began.

Frequently? Mecha Freezer only appears for a couple of chapters and he's never mentioned again.
And the official guide contradicted the manga in dozens of places, it's not a source that can be used when the manga points towards a different direction.

Mecha Freezer was NOT supressed, he was scared of Trunks, no one attacks suppressing his own strength if he is scared of his opponent.

So that means that any possible argument for Mecha Freeza being weaker can be dismissed (if he was weaker then he would have never considered invading Earth to fight Goku again).

The whole point of that scene is that neither Freezer nor his father are aware of Freezer's real strength.
What doesn't make any sense is for Freezer to fight supressed as you say when he was scared of the SSJ. He fought with all his strength (the one he already had) which was what Gohan considered to be him going supressed.

And the fact that SSJ1 Trunks killed him easily in his debut proves that he was already way stronger than Namek arc SSJ1 Goku.

But then we have SSJ Goku matchin SSJ Trunks in strength while stating that he hasn't had time to train besides learning a new technique and to transform at will.
And we also have Gohan stating that Trunks has the same Ki as his father in Namek.
I mean, this happens even if you don't like it.

Future Trunks was weaker than Future Gohan before training in the ROSAT. This was stated and shown in both the original manga and the History of Trunks anime.

Future Trunks was able to fight agains the future androids, so he had to be at least at the same level as future Gohan when he was killed if not stronger.
And never in the manga it's said that future Gohan was stronger than Future Trunks, in fact it's the opposite, the last time Trunks tries to fight the androids he is confident because he has surpased Gohan.

To say Future Gohan got no training is false headcanon because it doesn't make any sense (he wouldn't have survived as long as he did if that was the case) .

Goku died before the androids appeared and every other z-warrior died in the fight against them.
The training Gohan could have gotten in that context is minimal. We also know that Goku didn't force Gohan to train (the first training Gohan ever had was with Piccolo) so he wouldn't have trained as much as he did in the present TL to prepare for the androids.
That's not head-canon, it's simply common sense.

And to say that Future Trunks exaggerated the strength of the Androids is nonsense headcanon because the series shows the exact opposite: Trunks was completely surprised by the apparent greater power of the Present Androids.

He literally says that he could fight the androids fairly well and, in fact, he actually managed to destroy the androids in his original Time Line.
I mean, what more proofs do you need? HE DESTROYED THE ANDROIDS! How was he able to do that if he, according to you, was no match for them?
And he did that without any RoSat training, we're speaking of the exact same Trunks that says what he says in the present TL.

SSJ1 Vegeta at the early Android arc was shown (and stated by Piccolo) to have been stronger than post 3 years training SSJ1 Goku (who even before the 3 years of training was already stronger than Z-Freeza)

SSJ1 Goku was implied to be much inferior to Z-Freeza, unless you somehow ignore every single writting rule regarding fights in DB.
I mean, a badly injured Freezer fought at the same level of a SSJ, in Dragon Ball this means that Freezer was much above them.

And in fact, Toriyama himself confirmed that Goku SSJ had just 1/4 the strength of Namek Freezer in an interview. If the manga itself wasn't alone, we have the author confirming this himself.

Regards!

- Official confirmation that Mecha Freeza > Namek Freeza: https://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t23 ... wer-level/

- Nowhere has Toriyama ever said that SSJ1 Goku nor any SSJ1 was 1/4 Freeza. You just made that up.

- The only reason Trunks was able to hold his own in the Future was because the Androids were juse toying with him. He was never their equal before the ROSAT.

- Trunks was only able to kill the Androids in the original timeline because he had the remote control device to turn them off. If Trunks was simply stronger than them then he would have killed 1st form Cell when they met (1st Form Cell was weaker than Android 17 in his 1st appearance).

- If the Androids were weaker than Namek Freeza, then the SSJ1 after 3 years of training should have easily stomped the Cyborg twins.

[MechaTrunks]

- Official confirmation that Mecha Freeza > Namek Freeza: https://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t23 ... wer-level/

This is as official as the Daizenshuu, and the problem this guide has is that it's inconsitent with it's own statements and the stated facts from the manga.
I mean, that guide says:
Mecha Freezer: he is considerably stronger than before, but still can't reach the levels of a SSJ.
Trunks: he was as strong as Goku SSJ in Namek (something that's true).

The problem here is that Freezer, in Namek, completely managed to match Goku's power while Trunks completely masacred Mecha Freezer. That guide's explanation contradicts the manga, the only truly official dragon ball source of information.

- Nowhere has Toriyama ever said that SSJ1 Goku nor any SSJ1 was 1/4 Freeza. You just made that up.

Toriyama adressed in an interview that when he drew Goku SSJ in Namek, he thought of that power up as a 10x compared to Goku's base power.
We know that Freezer was 40x base Goku more or less, so do the maths yourself.

- The only reason Trunks was able to hold his own in the Future was because the Androids were juse toying with him. He was never their equal before the ROSAT.

Stop trying to force your head canon into the series. Trunks not only said that he could fight both androids fairly well, he actually KILLED them in his TL.
I mean, what more proof do you want? Were A17 and A18 killed while still playing? Both of them? Does this make any sense to you?

- Trunks was only able to kill the Androids in the original timeline because he had the remote control device to turn them off.

That's nonsense! Future Trunks didn't know even the location of Dr. Guero's normal lab, let alone Dr. Guero's secret lab that not even the androids knew about.
He wasn't even looking for the android's plans when he found them, so it's not as if finding that remote control was an idea that would ever cross his mind (he didn't even know the androids had an emergency stop mechanism).
In future Trunk's TL there's no Cell to explain him the location of the secred lab, that theory of yours is as if I say that Bu killed the future androids.

If Trunks was simply stronger than them then he would have killed 1st form Cell when they met (1st Form Cell was weaker than Android 17 in his 1st appearance).

1. We don't know how Cell killed Trunks, he could've attacked him by surprise since Trunks wasn't expecting him.
2. Cell only looked for Trunks after he got stronger than the Androids (probably the present ones, since that's the data he would probably have). So he could have killed Trunks even if he attacked normally.

- If the Androids were weaker than Namek Freeza, then the SSJ1 after 3 years of training should have easily stomped the Cyborg twins.

The SSJ doesn't improve with regular training and the difference with Freezer was brutal (Freezer would have been 4 times stronger, if not for his injuries), so nope, I don't think so.

Regards!

[Sadala Elite]

- Official confirmation that Mecha Freeza > Namek Freeza: https://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t23 ... wer-level/

This is as official as the Daizenshuu, and the problem this guide has is that it's inconsitent with it's own statements and the stated facts from the manga.
I mean, that guide says:
Mecha Freezer: he is considerably stronger than before, but still can't reach the levels of a SSJ.
Trunks: he was as strong as Goku SSJ in Namek (something that's true).

The problem here is that Freezer, in Namek, completely managed to match Goku's power while Trunks completely masacred Mecha Freezer. That guide's explanation contradicts the manga, the only truly official dragon ball source of information.

- Nowhere has Toriyama ever said that SSJ1 Goku nor any SSJ1 was 1/4 Freeza. You just made that up.

Toriyama adressed in an interview that when he drew Goku SSJ in Namek, he thought of that power up as a 10x compared to Goku's base power.
We know that Freezer was 40x base Goku more or less, so do the maths yourself.

- The only reason Trunks was able to hold his own in the Future was because the Androids were juse toying with him. He was never their equal before the ROSAT.

Stop trying to force your head canon into the series. Trunks not only said that he could fight both androids fairly well, he actually KILLED them in his TL.
I mean, what more proof do you want? Were A17 and A18 killed while still playing? Both of them? Does this make any sense to you?

- Trunks was only able to kill the Androids in the original timeline because he had the remote control device to turn them off.

That's nonsense! Future Trunks didn't know even the location of Dr. Guero's normal lab, let alone Dr. Guero's secret lab that not even the androids knew about.
He wasn't even looking for the android's plans when he found them, so it's not as if finding that remote control was an idea that would ever cross his mind (he didn't even know the androids had an emergency stop mechanism).
In future Trunk's TL there's no Cell to explain him the location of the secred lab, that theory of yours is as if I say that Bu killed the future androids.

If Trunks was simply stronger than them then he would have killed 1st form Cell when they met (1st Form Cell was weaker than Android 17 in his 1st appearance).

1. We don't know how Cell killed Trunks, he could've attacked him by surprise since Trunks wasn't expecting him.
2. Cell only looked for Trunks after he got stronger than the Androids (probably the present ones, since that's the data he would probably have). So he could have killed Trunks even if he attacked normally.

- If the Androids were weaker than Namek Freeza, then the SSJ1 after 3 years of training should have easily stomped the Cyborg twins.

The SSJ doesn't improve with regular training and the difference with Freezer was brutal (Freezer would have been 4 times stronger, if not for his injuries), so nope, I don't think so.

Regards!

1. Toriyama only said that he originally intended for SSJ1 to a 10x multiplier but he changed his mind to make it 50x (for good reason, because a 10x boost would make SSJ1 Goku weaker than Kaioken x20 which makes no sense).

That's why literally every official guide (including Toriyama himself in that same interview) says that SSJ1 is a 50x multipier. You are in denial.

They also said than SSJ1 Namek Goku's PL is 150 Million and that 100% Namek Freeza was 120 Million.

2. YOU are the one projecting headcanon. Watch the History of Trunks movie, its clear that the Future Androids were only toying with Future Trunks and that he was weaker than Future Gohan

Trunks only killed the Androids in the Original Timeline due to using the remote device (stated in guides and the series itself), NOT do to fighting them. And Trunks was NOT caught off guard when he fought Cell in the Original Timeline if you watch the Anime. He charged him head-on.

3. Cell himself told Piccolo I'm his 1st appearance that he's weaker than Android 17. That's why he went sneeking around early on. If the Androids were weaker than Freeza (as you say) then there's no way 1st form Cell could have killed Trunks (logically).


4. Transformations are NOT fixed tiers of power, they are multipliers of a person's base power. And they DO improve with training.

Hell, SSJ1 Goku in the Buu saga is MUCH stronger than SSJ1 Goku from Namek and even the Cell Games for example.

5. Freeza on Namek was NOT weakened by injuries. It is pure headcanon to assume that he was weaken. Both actually series and every guide said that Freeza was still able to use his 100% power against SSJ1 Goku despite his injuries.

Androids > Early SSJ1 > Z Freeza is a fact.

[Hugo Boss]

This thread is getting in the same direction of this one, by the page 4 and so on. Remind here is about Dragon Ball Super.

[Koitsukai]

snip to keep posts short

Regards!

- Actually it does, in order to break that trend you'd need to explicitly say so; it was not. Tori loves technology and in his work (Dr Slump included) it improves the characters. Gohan's opinion on his power cannot be compared to Freeza speaking about his power.
He can't sense ki but he sure knew in Namek just how much percentage he was using, pretty accurate, he knows how strong he is. You are basing all on a kid's comment and dismissing the actual protagonist of the situation. Also dismissing Toriyama's knack for mechanical improvements.

And Freeza didn't rush anything, he went a year after Namek. Badly injured means incapable of performing, like Gohan vs Cell, or Vegeta when Fat Buu blew up, or Freeza being cut in half. Freeza was in better shape than Goku after the genki dama. He survived on his own, Goku almost drowned and was saved by Piccolo.

-Trunks was NOT exaggerating. The androids killed everyone, SS Gohan lost an arm, Trunks barely escaped. Present androids are so strong that Z-senshi can't even last a minute against them, not even being 4 vs 2, that's what he is telling, he is not contradicting himself or making room for people to assume he was exaggerating for Goku to bait. That is your headcanon.
They are weaker but not weaker than himself, he would've taken back Goku immediately with him and both would've killed the androids in a heartbeat if that were the case.

-Again, nobody knows what happened in Cell's timeline, not even Cell. Therefore anything you say about it is your headcanon. I'm literally making no assumptions, but I can do that too: Trunks and Bulma found Gero's underground lab and de-activated them and was going to the past to share the remote. There. We don't know what happened so you can't prove it one way or the other.

-Cell wasn't a finished product but a finished android. As an android he already was an adult and could do everything his donors could. Not being perfect does not equate to not being developed in his original form. That was Cell, that's the result of the cloning, that was what took the computer so long. Perfect Cell is the result of absorbing other androids, it had nothing to do with his donors anymore.
When you clone 5 guys and blend them together the result must be better than the donors.

-Goku used KK to kill Freeza and Cold? what? where did you get that from? and Cold's true form? we don't know any of that, who is to say Cold has more forms? he should've used them when his empire was being threaten like never before.
Freeza is a prodigy, for all we know he is the only one having so many forms. And yes, Freeza is much more evil than Vegeta. Proof? Vegeta redeemed himself, Freeza will never. Vegeta has pride, Freeza will throw it out the window to win, like Cell when he blew up.

This will be my last post about this because like Hugo said, it's not the thread and because I see it's going nowhere.
Regards, man!

- SSG to me was above BoG SS3 Vegito, or at least above SS Vegito.
- Base Goku in RoF has to be high Z tier. Freeza in his 1st form one-shot Gohan, so his final form has to be around Buutenks/Buuhan level of power, and Goku was slightly above that.
- Cabba seemed equal in base and somewhat below SS Vegeta, which going with RoF's base form would make Cabba a beast that eats Z alive, and that sounds weird.
- Goku I think surpassed Beerus with MUI. With Sign I think he got up there with him, give or take a kiri.

Yeah, that makes sense to me, I have mostly the same opinion.
About RoF Freeza though, we know that 100% Freeza is roughly 225x First Form Freeza, and considering that First Form Freeza could one-shot SS Gohan, I'd say Base Goku and Freeza might be around Vegito's level easily, and perhaps even Super Vegito's because of that weirdly scaled fight against Tagoma with Base Gohan having a better performance than Piccolo and possibly even being as strong as his Ultimate Form.

I too have difficulty accepting Cabba and co. being stronger than Buu even in their base form, especially considering how they always make a big deal out of Buu's power level.
Not to mention, Beerus complementing an Enraged SS2 Vegeta on being incredibly strong would make absolutely no sense if there are dozens of characters from the neighbouring universe that are tens to hundreds of times stronger than that.
It always seemed to me personally that guys like Hit and Goku were outliers, and most of the weaker ToP roster was around Namek Freeza level (the strongest natural guy in Universe 7) with the stronger characters ranging largely between that level and the level of the gods.

I agree. I don't think Mecha Freeza has to be much stronger than his Namek self, being already in control of his FP could be enough to consider himself "stronger". Definitely not weaker though. Goku while not training on Yadrat, sure must gotten a huge zenkai boost after Namek.

I'm pretty sure there's a guide somewhere that basically states "Zenkai's weren't a thing anymore after Freeza / after Goku attaining Super Saiyan", paraphrasing of course, so I wouldn't think that it would've been a significant factor.
I can dig up a source if you don't know what I'm talking about

I'm with you on the DBS part. Freeza and Goku should be Super Vegito tier or close at least. I would also put Frost up there too. Assault form Frost makes him go SS, which would make FF Frost stronger than Super Vegito. Now this isn't that crazy because Freeza also is up there, although weaker, but considering he was 10 years dead I can give Frost the edge.

Cabba to me should be like Cell saga level, considering they have no SS or tails in U6 so maybe their base is way stronger and the ape power is more accessible. This is all weird because Cabba sort of matches Vegeta, who should have like Goku a crazy base, so this puts Cabba waaay higher on the list. Unless Vegeta's base isn't like Goku's but it really should be. Also base Vegeta fighting Gotenks implies they both share a crazy base form. For the ToP I think it all was retconned. I always thought the crazy base form was temporary or something, like it wore off with time. By the FT arc it was gone, Goku should be in base enough for FP SS2 Trunks but he needed equal forms, and we know Trunks does not have a high base because he fought Dabura but couldn't save Shin.


About the zenkai, the first mention of zenkai not working was when Gohan was fighting Buutenks, but I see your point, it seems like it was dropped for the android saga (forgotten by the author I'd say), at least on a relevant level. But still, I would give Goku a zenkai after the hell he went through on Namek.

[Hugo Boss]

I would give Goku a zenkai after the hell he went through on Namek.

Daizenshuu 7 seems to indicate that, after the battle with Freeza on Namek, this kind of power-up didn't get substantial, but it could amount to a little bit. Though, considering how Vegeta powered-up after training on Yardrat, I think most of Goku's gains came from that spirit control training.

[MechaTrunks]

1. Toriyama only said that he originally intended for SSJ1 to a 10x multiplier but he changed his mind to make it 50x (for good reason, because a 10x boost would make SSJ1 Goku weaker than Kaioken x20 which makes no sense).

That's why literally every official guide (including Toriyama himself in that same interview) says that SSJ1 is a 50x multipier. You are in denial.

They also said than SSJ1 Namek Goku's PL is 150 Million and that 100% Namek Freeza was 120 Million.

You have the interview translated in this page:
"Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.

No, he's not saying that he initially planed it to be a 10x change but that when he reached that scene he had to draw it as a 50x boost, he literally says that his feelings as the author when drawing those scenes was a 10x increase of strength for Goku.

The 50x of the guides is precisely WHAT HE IS ADRESSING in the interview, and that's precisely why using the numbers provided by the guides (guides that contradict themselves as I've already demonstrated to you) are wrong.

2. YOU are the one projecting headcanon. Watch the History of Trunks movie, its clear that the Future Androids were only toying with Future Trunks and that he was weaker than Future Gohan

The anime version of the history of Trunks changes a lot of things compared to the manga version of it (where the Trunks vs androids fight is off-paneled for a reason), it's like using anime DBS to discuss manga DBS.

Trunks only killed the Androids in the Original Timeline due to using the remote device (stated in guides and the series itself), NOT do to fighting them. And Trunks was NOT caught off guard when he fought Cell in the Original Timeline if you watch the Anime. He charged him head-on.

It's impossible that Trunks could have a remote device of any kind to kill the androids. in fact, the guides explanatioin of the different TLs in the Cell saga is so wrong that they aren't even coherent in the amount of TL they end with and the times Trunks travels to the past!

3. Cell himself told Piccolo I'm his 1st appearance that he's weaker than Android 17. That's why he went sneeking around early on. If the Androids were weaker than Freeza (as you say) then there's no way 1st form Cell could have killed Trunks (logically).

Are you aware that Cell had to revert to it's egg phase in order to fit into the time-machine?
He resets himself and starts from 0 again when he comes to the present, he explains it pretty well to Piccolo: In the future he absorbed humans until he was strong enough to absorb the androids, but when he started to look for them he found Trunks had already killed them, so he killed Trunks and went back to the future reverting to his egg state to fit into the ship!

4. Transformations are NOT fixed tiers of power, they are multipliers of a person's base power. And they DO improve with training.

In which I agree, what I say is that the SSJ doesn't improve with regular training which is proven in the RoSat.
Vegeta trains for an extra year while starting from a much higher level than the one Goku had when he entered the RoSat, and still was much below him when he came out.
Goku inside the RoSat was training like Vegeta until he realised that he was getting no progress and decided to redo all his training plan with the "always in SSJ" rule in mind, because to improve the SSJ forms what's key is to master it's violent nature and get a high degree of ki control while on it.

Hell, SSJ1 Goku in the Buu saga is MUCH stronger than SSJ1 Goku from Namek and even the Cell Games for example.

But that improvement didn't arribe until Goku decided to change the way he trained the SSJ. In the 3 years leading to the androids, Goku's improvements were so marginal that Vegeta managed to surpass him as soon as he was able to turn into a SSJ.
Then after Goku changed his training method, Vegeta wasn't able to come close to him even having trained 1 extra year in the most brutal conditions.

5. Freeza on Namek was NOT weakened by injuries. It is pure headcanon to assume that he was weaken.

If every single character of the series gets weakened when he is injured, no, it's not headcanon that this happens to Freezer as well.
And even less when the manga states it twice:
"Even now I'm still able to kill you all" is the first thing Freezer says after coming back from the Genkidama. What the hell do you think that this "even now" means, if not that he can kill them all despite being weaker?
And if that wasn't enough, after sending SSJ Goku to the bottom of a lake Freezer says: "I have to leave the planet, I'll lose even more strength if I'm stuck in the explosion".

I mean, unless you try to spin the manga as much as Toriyama's words, I don't see how you can contradict those statements!

- Actually it does, in order to break that trend you'd need to explicitly say so; it was not.

It couldn't be more explicit in reality:
1. The androids didn't emit any Ki because their source of energy was artificial. Mecha Freezer's Ki was sensed as if he was a live being, so more than an android he was just Freezer with mechanical protesis.
2. Mecha Freezer lost badly against SSJ Trunks who is stated to have the same strength as SSJ Namek Goku who Freezer was able to fight against despite being injured.
3. Gohan says Mecha Freezer's power is nothing and assumes he is hidding his true potential despite Mecha Freezer not powering up even once in his fight against Trunks.

Badly injured means incapable of performing, like Gohan vs Cell, or Vegeta when Fat Buu blew up, or Freeza being cut in half.
Freeza was in better shape than Goku after the genki dama. He survived on his own, Goku almost drowned and was saved by Piccolo.

It's Freeza the one using the badly injured term, I'm still giving him 1/4 of his maximum battle power after reaching his 100%.
1/4 of his maximum battle power is still more than what Vegeta had when he fought enraged kid Gohan (Vegeta had less than 1/6th of his strength) and he still was performing well enough.
The problem is that you want to dismiss those injuries completely, as if they didn't happen or if Freezer was like kid Bu or A17, which clearly wasn't the case.
Between the Genkidama and the beating SSJ Goku gives him while Freeza is still in his 50%, making Freezer lose 3/4 of strength (still capable of giving a good fight, of course) is coherent with the rest of the series. What's not coherent is to say that Freezer didn't lose any strength!

Regarding the injuries, yes, Goku was much worse than Freezer prior to the rage boost. But Goku had a rage boost that replenished his Ki and Freezer didn't have it.
Gohan was also very weakened vs Vegeta but his rageboost completely refilled him. That's what happened to Goku as well.

Both actually series and every guide said that Freeza was still able to use his 100% power against SSJ1 Goku despite his injuries.

Look using the 100% just means that he is using all his power.
Vegeta was also able to use all of his power after being destroyed by the genkidama in the earth, it's just that his maximum power was very weak.
We have CELL, which does the exact same thing than Freezer (he fights while hiding his power against Goku), and Goku gives him a senzu just so he can recover the strength he had lost.

If I'm running at half my maximum intensity, and that's let's say 10km/h, then when running at full speed I should be able to reach 20km/h.
But if I break my leg, my full speed will probably be 4km/h, even if it's still MY FULL SPEED.
Full speed, full power, 100% of power... everything is the same and it just means "going all out".

Wasn't Freezer still at his 100% when Goku quit the fight because he could no longer keep up? Of course he was at his 100%, just much weaker because of his lack of stamina!

He can't sense ki but he sure knew in Namek just how much percentage he was using, pretty accurate, he knows how strong he is.

Even I can tell at a simple glance if I'm runing at maximum speed or more or less at half speed, which is what Freezer was doing.
Now, good luck in measuring if your maximum speed is 20 or 25 km/h without a crono and a fixed distance you could do your maths with.

Gohan is the crono here, and the crono is telling us that Freezer is not as fast as before, despite him being convinced he is. Then he's beaten to the pulp by someone who he should at the very least be able to have an even fight with proving who was right and who wasn't.

-Trunks was NOT exaggerating. The androids killed everyone, SS Gohan lost an arm, Trunks barely escaped. Present androids are so strong that Z-senshi can't even last a minute against them, not even being 4 vs 2, that's what he is telling, he is not contradicting himself or making room for people to assume he was exaggerating for Goku to bait. That is your headcanon.

The androids killing everyone when none of the z-warriors were SSJs or at the SSJ level of power (Piccolo surely was much weaker in the future TL) proves nothing.
We also don't know how Gohan lost his arm (it was in a fight against the androids, but we don't even know if he was fighting as a SSJ there), and the fact that Trunks barely escaped doesn't contradict that he could fight both androids fairly well (you can fight someone at his level and still lose, especially if they have unlimited energy).
But he killed those androids in one of the TLs, which reinforces his claim of being at their very same level.

If you say that Trunks was not exaggerating when he said that he could do nothing even against 1 single android, then why he retcons this and says that he could fight both androids fairly well?
I mean, he contradicts himself for a reason! If it was not him exaggerating then why did he do it? To see if the present z-warriros would get scared?

They are weaker but not weaker than himself, he would've taken back Goku immediately with him and both would've killed the androids in a heartbeat if that were the case.

He in fact killed the androids in one of the TLs. Taking Goku to the futrue I doubt it, but he probably took some senzu beans from the past which is what Toriyama hinted that happened in the manga.
Something in TL3 happened that changed that (I think the manga gives enough hints to know exactly what happened in the relevant points of every single TL) and Trunks came back from the future without killing the androids.

-Again, nobody knows what happened in Cell's timeline, not even Cell. Therefore anything you say about it is your headcanon. I'm literally making no assumptions, but I can do that too: Trunks and Bulma found Gero's underground lab and de-activated them and was going to the past to share the remote. There. We don't know what happened so you can't prove it one way or the other.

Trunks couldn't find something he didn't know it even existed in a place he didn't know even existed.
I mean the fact is that Trunks killed the androids and that Trunks told you that he could fight aginst the future androids fairly well.
You don't like this to be true and want the future androids to be much stronger than Trunks, but then you'll have to explain why Trunks lied and how he could suddenly gain information on an abandoned lab that he never tried to locate prior to his second trip to the past (so, events that he didn't experience in the first trip to the past)?

Daizenshuu 7 seems to indicate that, after the battle with Freeza on Namek, this kind of power-up didn't get substantial, but it could amount to a little bit. Though, considering how Vegeta powered-up after training on Yardrat, I think most of Goku's gains came from that spirit control training.

Even if I don't think that the Yadrat training Vegeta got in super was what Toriyama had on mind for Goku in Yadrat (he explicitly stated that he didn't had time to train which wouldn't be the case if he really increased his Ki like Vegeta did), the zenkay powers for a saiyan were implied to disappear after the saiyan reached the limits of the base state.
This is further confirmed in Super, where it's directly stated in the Black Saga (Goku and Vegeta have no more zenkays because they've already reached their limits).

Regards!

[Sadala Elite]

1. Toriyama only said that he originally intended for SSJ1 to a 10x multiplier but he changed his mind to make it 50x (for good reason, because a 10x boost would make SSJ1 Goku weaker than Kaioken x20 which makes no sense).

That's why literally every official guide (including Toriyama himself in that same interview) says that SSJ1 is a 50x multipier. You are in denial.

They also said than SSJ1 Namek Goku's PL is 150 Million and that 100% Namek Freeza was 120 Million.

You have the interview translated in this page:
"Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.

No, he's not saying that he initially planed it to be a 10x change but that when he reached that scene he had to draw it as a 50x boost, he literally says that his feelings as the author when drawing those scenes was a 10x increase of strength for Goku.

The 50x of the guides is precisely WHAT HE IS ADRESSING in the interview, and that's precisely why using the numbers provided by the guides (guides that contradict themselves as I've already demonstrated to you) are wrong.

2. YOU are the one projecting headcanon. Watch the History of Trunks movie, its clear that the Future Androids were only toying with Future Trunks and that he was weaker than Future Gohan

The anime version of the history of Trunks changes a lot of things compared to the manga version of it (where the Trunks vs androids fight is off-paneled for a reason), it's like using anime DBS to discuss manga DBS.

Trunks only killed the Androids in the Original Timeline due to using the remote device (stated in guides and the series itself), NOT do to fighting them. And Trunks was NOT caught off guard when he fought Cell in the Original Timeline if you watch the Anime. He charged him head-on.

It's impossible that Trunks could have a remote device of any kind to kill the androids. in fact, the guides explanatioin of the different TLs in the Cell saga is so wrong that they aren't even coherent in the amount of TL they end with and the times Trunks travels to the past!

3. Cell himself told Piccolo I'm his 1st appearance that he's weaker than Android 17. That's why he went sneeking around early on. If the Androids were weaker than Freeza (as you say) then there's no way 1st form Cell could have killed Trunks (logically).

Are you aware that Cell had to revert to it's egg phase in order to fit into the time-machine?
He resets himself and starts from 0 again when he comes to the present, he explains it pretty well to Piccolo: In the future he absorbed humans until he was strong enough to absorb the androids, but when he started to look for them he found Trunks had already killed them, so he killed Trunks and went back to the future reverting to his egg state to fit into the ship!

4. Transformations are NOT fixed tiers of power, they are multipliers of a person's base power. And they DO improve with training.

In which I agree, what I say is that the SSJ doesn't improve with regular training which is proven in the RoSat.
Vegeta trains for an extra year while starting from a much higher level than the one Goku had when he entered the RoSat, and still was much below him when he came out.
Goku inside the RoSat was training like Vegeta until he realised that he was getting no progress and decided to redo all his training plan with the "always in SSJ" rule in mind, because to improve the SSJ forms what's key is to master it's violent nature and get a high degree of ki control while on it.

Hell, SSJ1 Goku in the Buu saga is MUCH stronger than SSJ1 Goku from Namek and even the Cell Games for example.

But that improvement didn't arribe until Goku decided to change the way he trained the SSJ. In the 3 years leading to the androids, Goku's improvements were so marginal that Vegeta managed to surpass him as soon as he was able to turn into a SSJ.
Then after Goku changed his training method, Vegeta wasn't able to come close to him even having trained 1 extra year in the most brutal conditions.

5. Freeza on Namek was NOT weakened by injuries. It is pure headcanon to assume that he was weaken.

If every single character of the series gets weakened when he is injured, no, it's not headcanon that this happens to Freezer as well.
And even less when the manga states it twice:
"Even now I'm still able to kill you all" is the first thing Freezer says after coming back from the Genkidama. What the hell do you think that this "even now" means, if not that he can kill them all despite being weaker?
And if that wasn't enough, after sending SSJ Goku to the bottom of a lake Freezer says: "I have to leave the planet, I'll lose even more strength if I'm stuck in the explosion".

I mean, unless you try to spin the manga as much as Toriyama's words, I don't see how you can contradict those statements!

- Actually it does, in order to break that trend you'd need to explicitly say so; it was not.

It couldn't be more explicit in reality:
1. The androids didn't emit any Ki because their source of energy was artificial. Mecha Freezer's Ki was sensed as if he was a live being, so more than an android he was just Freezer with mechanical protesis.
2. Mecha Freezer lost badly against SSJ Trunks who is stated to have the same strength as SSJ Namek Goku who Freezer was able to fight against despite being injured.
3. Gohan says Mecha Freezer's power is nothing and assumes he is hidding his true potential despite Mecha Freezer not powering up even once in his fight against Trunks.

Badly injured means incapable of performing, like Gohan vs Cell, or Vegeta when Fat Buu blew up, or Freeza being cut in half.
Freeza was in better shape than Goku after the genki dama. He survived on his own, Goku almost drowned and was saved by Piccolo.

It's Freeza the one using the badly injured term, I'm still giving him 1/4 of his maximum battle power after reaching his 100%.
1/4 of his maximum battle power is still more than what Vegeta had when he fought enraged kid Gohan (Vegeta had less than 1/6th of his strength) and he still was performing well enough.
The problem is that you want to dismiss those injuries completely, as if they didn't happen or if Freezer was like kid Bu or A17, which clearly wasn't the case.
Between the Genkidama and the beating SSJ Goku gives him while Freeza is still in his 50%, making Freezer lose 3/4 of strength (still capable of giving a good fight, of course) is coherent with the rest of the series. What's not coherent is to say that Freezer didn't lose any strength!

Regarding the injuries, yes, Goku was much worse than Freezer prior to the rage boost. But Goku had a rage boost that replenished his Ki and Freezer didn't have it.
Gohan was also very weakened vs Vegeta but his rageboost completely refilled him. That's what happened to Goku as well.

Both actually series and every guide said that Freeza was still able to use his 100% power against SSJ1 Goku despite his injuries.

Look using the 100% just means that he is using all his power.
Vegeta was also able to use all of his power after being destroyed by the genkidama in the earth, it's just that his maximum power was very weak.
We have CELL, which does the exact same thing than Freezer (he fights while hiding his power against Goku), and Goku gives him a senzu just so he can recover the strength he had lost.

If I'm running at half my maximum intensity, and that's let's say 10km/h, then when running at full speed I should be able to reach 20km/h.
But if I break my leg, my full speed will probably be 4km/h, even if it's still MY FULL SPEED.
Full speed, full power, 100% of power... everything is the same and it just means "going all out".

Wasn't Freezer still at his 100% when Goku quit the fight because he could no longer keep up? Of course he was at his 100%, just much weaker because of his lack of stamina!

He can't sense ki but he sure knew in Namek just how much percentage he was using, pretty accurate, he knows how strong he is.

Even I can tell at a simple glance if I'm runing at maximum speed or more or less at half speed, which is what Freezer was doing.
Now, good luck in measuring if your maximum speed is 20 or 25 km/h without a crono and a fixed distance you could do your maths with.

Gohan is the crono here, and the crono is telling us that Freezer is not as fast as before, despite him being convinced he is. Then he's beaten to the pulp by someone who he should at the very least be able to have an even fight with proving who was right and who wasn't.

-Trunks was NOT exaggerating. The androids killed everyone, SS Gohan lost an arm, Trunks barely escaped. Present androids are so strong that Z-senshi can't even last a minute against them, not even being 4 vs 2, that's what he is telling, he is not contradicting himself or making room for people to assume he was exaggerating for Goku to bait. That is your headcanon.

The androids killing everyone when none of the z-warriors were SSJs or at the SSJ level of power (Piccolo surely was much weaker in the future TL) proves nothing.
We also don't know how Gohan lost his arm (it was in a fight against the androids, but we don't even know if he was fighting as a SSJ there), and the fact that Trunks barely escaped doesn't contradict that he could fight both androids fairly well (you can fight someone at his level and still lose, especially if they have unlimited energy).
But he killed those androids in one of the TLs, which reinforces his claim of being at their very same level.

If you say that Trunks was not exaggerating when he said that he could do nothing even against 1 single android, then why he retcons this and says that he could fight both androids fairly well?
I mean, he contradicts himself for a reason! If it was not him exaggerating then why did he do it? To see if the present z-warriros would get scared?

They are weaker but not weaker than himself, he would've taken back Goku immediately with him and both would've killed the androids in a heartbeat if that were the case.

He in fact killed the androids in one of the TLs. Taking Goku to the futrue I doubt it, but he probably took some senzu beans from the past which is what Toriyama hinted that happened in the manga.
Something in TL3 happened that changed that (I think the manga gives enough hints to know exactly what happened in the relevant points of every single TL) and Trunks came back from the future without killing the androids.

-Again, nobody knows what happened in Cell's timeline, not even Cell. Therefore anything you say about it is your headcanon. I'm literally making no assumptions, but I can do that too: Trunks and Bulma found Gero's underground lab and de-activated them and was going to the past to share the remote. There. We don't know what happened so you can't prove it one way or the other.

Trunks couldn't find something he didn't know it even existed in a place he didn't know even existed.
I mean the fact is that Trunks killed the androids and that Trunks told you that he could fight aginst the future androids fairly well.
You don't like this to be true and want the future androids to be much stronger than Trunks, but then you'll have to explain why Trunks lied and how he could suddenly gain information on an abandoned lab that he never tried to locate prior to his second trip to the past (so, events that he didn't experience in the first trip to the past)?

Daizenshuu 7 seems to indicate that, after the battle with Freeza on Namek, this kind of power-up didn't get substantial, but it could amount to a little bit. Though, considering how Vegeta powered-up after training on Yardrat, I think most of Goku's gains came from that spirit control training.

Even if I don't think that the Yadrat training Vegeta got in super was what Toriyama had on mind for Goku in Yadrat (he explicitly stated that he didn't had time to train which wouldn't be the case if he really increased his Ki like Vegeta did), the zenkay powers for a saiyan were implied to disappear after the saiyan reached the limits of the base state.
This is further confirmed in Super, where it's directly stated in the Black Saga (Goku and Vegeta have no more zenkays because they've already reached their limits).

Regards!

- Then explain why, in every official guide (including ones Toriyama himself co-wrote) list SSJ1 as 50x boost? It means he changed his mind because its a plot hole for SSJ1 to be only 10x (it would have made Goku weaker than Kaioken and even 50% Freeza).

You seem to lack reading comprehension, because that interview Toriyama is clearly saying that he only orginally intended SSJ1 to be 10x but changed his mind afterwards.

The guides are all consistent with each other and approved by Toriyama himself. You can't deny it just for your headcanon.

- The only real change between the manga and anime versions is Trunks unlocking SSJ1 before Gohan dies. Everything else is shown and implied to be the same.

- There's nothing impossible about Trunks from the original timeline discovering Gero's lab and making the remote device. You never gave any proof of that never happening.

- Cell never said that he got weaker when reverting himself into a large. That's just your headcanon.

- SSJ DOES improve with training. Where do you think the different grades of SSJ1 come from? The SSJ1 Goku used against Cell (Grade 4) is different from the ine he used against Freeza (Grade 1).

- You are ignoring Freeza's durability. This is the same guy who can survive getting cut in half. Freeza himself said in the series that he's using his full power as 100% against SSJ1 Goku (so does every guide). It is pure headcanon to deny this.

- Mecha Freeza is officially confirmed stronger than Namek Freeza. And SSJ1 Trunks was STRONGER (not equal) than Namek arc SSJ1 Goku. Its pure headcanon to argue otherwise.

- Future Vegeta was clearly shown to be a SSJ1 when killed by the Androids in the anime. There no reason to assume that he didn't achieve it.

- Trunks said that he could hold his own against the Androids because the Androids were obviously toying with him.

- Watch the series, read the manga. Android 18 easily stomped SSJ1 Vegeta, who got 3 years of training was stated to be stronger than 3 years of training Goku, who even before the 3 years was already stronger than Z-Freeza.

This logically means that thr Androids were massively stronger than Freeza in Z.

[Dragon Wukong]

Personally, I've become of the opinion that SSG Goku wasn't necessarily above SS3 Vegito in Battle of Gods. Neither would be able to beat Beerus, and that inability of fusion to do that was why they relied on SSG in the first place.

I also think Gohan by the time of Resurrection F had gotten ridiculously weaker, to the point he couldn't use SS2, let alone his true Ultimate potential. While I think base form Goku at this point had been intended to be SSG-level, "Saiyan beyond God" has pretty much been retconned at this point to where I'd say Goku and Frieza were probably around Cell saga SS2-level in their base and final forms, but honestly I think even that contradicts with most of Super from then on to the point I just wanna ignore Resurrection F when discussing any kind of power scaling. The movie was designed with a certain idea in mind (Saiyan Beyond God) and the rest of the series has very clearly chosen to ignore that.

IMO in the U6 tournament, everyone feels like they were probably written to be around their Buu saga levels as far as base forms/super saiyan go. Frost being above Piccolo but him being able to fight back would tell me he's probably around Semi-Perfect Cell's level at least (given there's no indication Piccolo has gotten ridiculously stronger, and Goku as a Super Saiyan could easily trounce him if Frost didn't resort to tricks.) And this interpretation feels relatively consistent for the rest of Super, minus some weird outliers, like base Copy Vegeta vs SS3 Gotenks, which felt like another "Saiyan Beyond God" moment, and was in a "filler" arc (as in not part of the arcs outlined by Toriyama for the main story) anyhow. I get the vibe everyone stayed at relatively that same level until the ToP, where namely only Frieza Gohan and 17 were written as having gotten way stronger prior to the tournament. Tenshinhan's taking out of the sniper was said by one of the writers to be a feat on par with when he held back Semi-Perfect Cell, so I'd assume he's still at the same level he was back then in the Buu saga too.

Really though, it becomes somewhat hard to discuss strength when there's levels of inconsistency in writing. Not even getting into how vastly different in power anime Goku is from manga Goku, you have stuff like SSB Goku getting tossed around by Berserk Kale before she gets a new power up and struggles with SSG.

There's really quite a lot of ambiguity.

[Miracles]

SSG was stated by Toriyama to Yamammuro to be “a being that surpasses everything.” Fusion was indeed weaker than god.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... -yamamuro/

As for Resurrection F...Goku's base indeed only got stronger from Whis training in RoF. Since it was after he got an overall power boost from absorbing SSJG and made the form his own in BoG...

Spoiler:

There is no "retcon." Especially since Goku's base could handle FF Frieza, which was handling the same base Goku, who was able to tussle with Beerus in BoG. Goku definitely got stronger from BoG and frieza matched him. Since there was no mention of Goku losing such power the characters were just that strong as the story went on.

[Sadala Elite]

Personally, I've become of the opinion that SSG Goku wasn't necessarily above SS3 Vegito in Battle of Gods. Neither would be able to beat Beerus, and that inability of fusion to do that was why they relied on SSG in the first place.

I also think Gohan by the time of Resurrection F had gotten ridiculously weaker, to the point he couldn't use SS2, let alone his true Ultimate potential. While I think base form Goku at this point had been intended to be SSG-level, "Saiyan beyond God" has pretty much been retconned at this point to where I'd say Goku and Frieza were probably around Cell saga SS2-level in their base and final forms, but honestly I think even that contradicts with most of Super from then on to the point I just wanna ignore Resurrection F when discussing any kind of power scaling. The movie was designed with a certain idea in mind (Saiyan Beyond God) and the rest of the series has very clearly chosen to ignore that.

IMO in the U6 tournament, everyone feels like they were probably written to be around their Buu saga levels as far as base forms/super saiyan go. Frost being above Piccolo but him being able to fight back would tell me he's probably around Semi-Perfect Cell's level at least (given there's no indication Piccolo has gotten ridiculously stronger, and Goku as a Super Saiyan could easily trounce him if Frost didn't resort to tricks.) And this interpretation feels relatively consistent for the rest of Super, minus some weird outliers, like base Copy Vegeta vs SS3 Gotenks, which felt like another "Saiyan Beyond God" moment, and was in a "filler" arc (as in not part of the arcs outlined by Toriyama for the main story) anyhow. I get the vibe everyone stayed at relatively that same level until the ToP, where namely only Frieza Gohan and 17 were written as having gotten way stronger prior to the tournament. Tenshinhan's taking out of the sniper was said by one of the writers to be a feat on par with when he held back Semi-Perfect Cell, so I'd assume he's still at the same level he was back then in the Buu saga too.

Really though, it becomes somewhat hard to discuss strength when there's levels of inconsistency in writing. Not even getting into how vastly different in power anime Goku is from manga Goku, you have stuff like SSB Goku getting tossed around by Berserk Kale before she gets a new power up and struggles with SSG.

There's really quite a lot of ambiguity.

- SSG in BoG was designed from the beginning to be stronger than any Z character. Goku even stated after his 1st fight with Beerus that fusion wouldn't be enough, but was confident about using SSG.

- "Saiyan beyond God" was never retconned (the very idea that it was is baseless headcanon) RoF alone is proof of that. 1st form Freeza (who was weaker than Namek saga Piccolo in Z) in that movie was already far stronger than anyone from the Buu saga (with characters saying that Gotenks couldn't take him on), yet base Goku (post-BoG) could take on Final form Freeza who's over 200x stronger than his 1st form. That alone should show that Goku & Vegeta's bases are far beyond what they were in the Buu arc. There's also Togama (who's equal to Mystic Gohan from the Buu arc) who got casually one-shot by base Vegeta.

There's also the time Base Goku matched Fit Buu (strongest Buu ever) right before the ToP started. That wouldn't be possible if "Saiyan Beyond-God" was retconned.

- The notion that nobody got much stronger before the ToP is easily debunked by the Black arc, which features Goku, Vegeta and Trunks getting several power boost throughout the saga.

Hell, in the anime Goku Black was already the strongest non-fused character (below the GoDs) when he 1st revealed the SSJ Rose form according to Toei (which means that he was already stronger than SSBKKx10 Goku and Hit from the U6 arc). Both Goku and Vegeta in just their regular SSB forms (and SSJ Rage Trunks) far surpassed that Black halfway through the Black arc.

- There's no such thing as "filler" in Super, since neither the anime nor the manga are an adaption of another thing. This means that the Copy-Vegeta arc
counts whether you like it or not.

- "Tenshinhan's taking out of the sniper was said by one of the writers to be a feat on par with when he held back Semi-Perfect Cell, so I'd assume he's still at the same level he was back then in the Buu saga too."

That writer wasn't trying to powerscale. That wasn't what he meant.

- The myth that Saiyan beyond-God was retconned is based purely on biases and incredulity about how strong certain characters are suppose to be. Assuming Saiyan beyond-God ever got retconned actually creates even more inconsistencies than the opposite.

[ZombieVito]

Heyo everyone, so my designated Powar Levuls channel just hit its 4th year anniversary this week!
And... with the recent state of things with the quarantine and all, I guess this is as good of a time as I'll ever get to expend my unused brain cells on Dragon Ball Super's horrendous power scaling after a such a long time!

I'd say most of the fellas here with their own power level lists have similar opinions on the scaling for the "Z" portion of the series. Of course, I can't say for everyone, but I've seen ZombieVito's list for example, as well as Kaboom's list, and I can pretty much agree with everything there.

The main points of contention arise as soon as Super Saiyan God appears, and even more so when it abruptly disappears only to reappear again. It's 2020 and we still don't know how strong exactly the Base Saiyans are supposed to be after Goku "absorbs Super Saiyan God's power" / trains with Whis.

Some people like Kaboom straight up opted to never touch the scaling for Dragon Ball Super, and I can understand why.

Some peeps like myself, Marlowe89 and ChiefWamsutta had proposed a "Two Base Theory" at the time of Super's run, and some of us might've changed our opinion on that, but it seemed to be the best way to make sense of Goku and Vegeta's inconsistent power level at the time. Basically, it boiled down to Goku and Vegeta being able to range from not being much stronger than their Boo arc bases to being as strong as SS God's power in their base forms (and sometimes, everything in between).

I've read the latest few posts and it's really wholesome to see a few familiar names from back in the day when Super was airing, still scratching their heads over the scaling, and it's also great to see some new names as well.

I would really like to hear you guys' current thoughts on the general power scaling of Super now that we've had over an year or two since the last episode. Y'know, thoughts on the usual questions like:
How strong do you think SSG was?
How strong was SSB/Base Goku in RoF?
How strong were Cabba and the other Universes' fighters compared to Goku and co.?
(When) did Goku actually surpass Beerus? etc.

Hope we're able to get the discussion going! And I suppose I should share my two cents on the latest posts as well.

Hey thanks for the shoutout. This reminds me that I should upload my new list. It's not finished but it is somewhat different.

As for your questions:

How strong do you think SSG was?

Stronger than SS3 Vegetto from the BoG arc.

How strong was SSB/Base Goku in RoF?

Controversial but I have them weaker than Ultimate Gohan from the Boo arc. I don't like bloat and a post 3 year RoSaT base Vegeta couldn't one shot SS3 Gotenks so he shouldn't be dozens of times stronger. SSB is 50 times stronger than SSG.

How strong were Cabba and the other Universes' fighters compared to Goku and co.?

Botamo: Just a guess but I have him under Piccolo.
Frost: Stronger than anyone from Z except SS Vegetto. 30% or so of U6 arc SS Vegeta.
Magetta: 80% or so of U6 arc SS Vegeta.
Cabba: Equal to U6 arc Vegetta.
Hit: 80% of SSB Goku.

(When) did Goku actually surpass Beerus? etc.

Ultra Instinct of course.

[MechaTrunks]

- Then explain why, in every official guide (including ones Toriyama himself co-wrote) list SSJ1 as 50x boost? It means he changed his mind because its a plot hole for SSJ1 to be only 10x (it would have made Goku weaker than Kaioken and even 50% Freeza).

Toriyama didn't co-write anything, he just wrote an introductory paragraph on the guides because he was paid to do so to sell the products.

You seem to lack reading comprehension, because that interview Toriyama is clearly saying that he only orginally intended SSJ1 to be 10x but changed his mind afterwards.

Ok, we're reaching obvious points of dishonesty here. Let's analyse what Toriyama says because one thing is to disagree with him, and another, very diferent think to invent a pararlel reality where he says the opposite of what he said.
What he said is this:

Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.

Let's dissect it part by part, because it seems that two sentences at the same time is too difficult:
Part 1:

It was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration.

This means that most of the fans (probably because of the guides) understood the SSJ was a 50x increase, BUT THAT WAS AN EXAGGERATION.
To that 50x increase, what Toriyama says is that IT WAS AN EXAGGERATION, not that this is what he wanted to do. He is clearly saying that the 50x is WRONG.

Part 2:

My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.

This means that the power up he had on mind for SSJ Goku was 10x.

Now let's try to add both parts.
Part 1: Most people thought it was a 50x, but that was exaggerated.
Part 2: When I drew those scenes, I did it with a 10x power up on mind.
Part 1+2: 50x was too much, it's 10x.

I mean, it seruously can't be that difficult to accept reality and what Toriyama said. If you disagree with him it's ok, but don't spin his words to make him say the opposite of what he actually said.


Regarding the debate of the SSGod form, how I think it works:
1. DBZ Super Movies canon: SSG form got absorbed into the base state.
2. Anime canon: tried to follow the logic of the movies, but every saga after RoF was written with the manga canon on mind -at least the general script given by Toriyama- and that's why it's an inconsistent mess impossible to understand. They tried to follow the movie canon with scripts written to retcon them.
3. Manga canon (& DBS:Broly movie): Goku absorbs the SSGod form and can access it as if it was a SSJ transformation.

In terms of strength, I think the movie verion of it was above it's manga counterpart. I don't think Vegetto SSJ3 would be able to defeat him in any version, but movie SSG was said to be at around 60% the power of Bills (which is clearly retconned in both the anime and the manga).

Regards!

[Sadala Elite]

- Then explain why, in every official guide (including ones Toriyama himself co-wrote) list SSJ1 as 50x boost? It means he changed his mind because its a plot hole for SSJ1 to be only 10x (it would have made Goku weaker than Kaioken and even 50% Freeza).

Toriyama didn't co-write anything, he just wrote an introductory paragraph on the guides because he was paid to do so to sell the products.

You seem to lack reading comprehension, because that interview Toriyama is clearly saying that he only orginally intended SSJ1 to be 10x but changed his mind afterwards.

Ok, we're reaching obvious points of dishonesty here. Let's analyse what Toriyama says because one thing is to disagree with him, and another, very diferent think to invent a pararlel reality where he says the opposite of what he said.
What he said is this:

Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.

Let's dissect it part by part, because it seems that two sentences at the same time is too difficult:
Part 1:

It was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration.

This means that most of the fans (probably because of the guides) understood the SSJ was a 50x increase, BUT THAT WAS AN EXAGGERATION.
To that 50x increase, what Toriyama says is that IT WAS AN EXAGGERATION, not that this is what he wanted to do. He is clearly saying that the 50x is WRONG.

Part 2:

My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.

This means that the power up he had on mind for SSJ Goku was 10x.

Now let's try to add both parts.
Part 1: Most people thought it was a 50x, but that was exaggerated.
Part 2: When I drew those scenes, I did it with a 10x power up on mind.
Part 1+2: 50x was too much, it's 10x.

I mean, it seruously can't be that difficult to accept reality and what Toriyama said. If you disagree with him it's ok, but don't spin his words to make him say the opposite of what he actually said.


Regarding the debate of the SSGod form, how I think it works:
1. DBZ Super Movies canon: SSG form got absorbed into the base state.
2. Anime canon: tried to follow the logic of the movies, but every saga after RoF was written with the manga canon on mind -at least the general script given by Toriyama- and that's why it's an inconsistent mess impossible to understand. They tried to follow the movie canon with scripts written to retcon them.
3. Manga canon (& DBS:Broly movie): Goku absorbs the SSGod form and can access it as if it was a SSJ transformation.

In terms of strength, I think the movie verion of it was above it's manga counterpart. I don't think Vegetto SSJ3 would be able to defeat him in any version, but movie SSG was said to be at around 60% the power of Bills (which is clearly retconned in both the anime and the manga).

Regards!

Toriyama DID co-wrote and approved the Daizenshuu guides (and others like the Super exciting guides), its a fact that you are denying. And they ALL say SSJ1 is 50x. If Toriyama always wanted SSJ1 to be only 10x then the guides that he co-write would say so.

SSJ1 being only 10x is a plot hole and contradiction, because that would make it weaker than Kaioken x20. There's no SSJ1 could have neared even 50% Freeza if SSJ1 was only 10x. And no, Freeza was never weakened on Namek nor as a Cyborg. You have been debunked.

[Dragon Wukong]

- SSG in BoG was designed from the beginning to be stronger than any Z character. Goku even stated after his 1st fight with Beerus that fusion wouldn't be enough, but was confident about using SSG.

- "Saiyan beyond God" was never retconned (the very idea that it was is baseless headcanon) RoF alone is proof of that. 1st form Freeza (who was weaker than Namek saga Piccolo in Z) in that movie was already far stronger than anyone from the Buu saga (with characters saying that Gotenks couldn't take him on), yet base Goku (post-BoG) could take on Final form Freeza who's over 200x stronger than his 1st form. That alone should show that Goku & Vegeta's bases are far beyond what they were in the Buu arc. There's also Togama (who's equal to Mystic Gohan from the Buu arc) who got casually one-shot by base Vegeta.

There's also the time Base Goku matched Fit Buu (strongest Buu ever) right before the ToP started. That wouldn't be possible if "Saiyan Beyond-God" was retconned.

- The notion that nobody got much stronger before the ToP is easily debunked by the Black arc, which features Goku, Vegeta and Trunks getting several power boost throughout the saga.

Hell, in the anime Goku Black was already the strongest non-fused character (below the GoDs) when he 1st revealed the SSJ Rose form according to Toei (which means that he was already stronger than SSBKKx10 Goku and Hit from the U6 arc). Both Goku and Vegeta in just their regular SSB forms (and SSJ Rage Trunks) far surpassed that Black halfway through the Black arc.

- There's no such thing as "filler" in Super, since neither the anime nor the manga are an adaption of another thing. This means that the Copy-Vegeta arc
counts whether you like it or not.

- "Tenshinhan's taking out of the sniper was said by one of the writers to be a feat on par with when he held back Semi-Perfect Cell, so I'd assume he's still at the same level he was back then in the Buu saga too."

That writer wasn't trying to powerscale. That wasn't what he meant.

- The myth that Saiyan beyond-God was retconned is based purely on biases and incredulity about how strong certain characters are suppose to be. Assuming Saiyan beyond-God ever got retconned actually creates even more inconsistencies than the opposite.

SSG failed though, and in the first place how strong Beerus is in that arc got retconned in the anime immediately.

Saiyan Beyond God is based on SSG being absorbed in Resurrection F, along with Toriyama's statement after Battle of Gods that he wouldn't use SSG again and would instead evolve his Super Saiyan, which came to a head with SSGSS in Resurrection F and was undone when Goku tossed out SSG in the U6 tournament in the manga and the ToP in the anime. It's not baseless at all to say it's a retcon, what I describe is exactly what happened. The Gotenks quote itself is something that was added in the anime, which itself got contradicted/retconned in DBS Broly with Frieza having no clue what Fusion is.

When I refer to no one getting stronger until the ToP, I'm referring to the characters that aren't Saiyans (and 17), besides the fact Krillin's new "power-up" literally amounted to nothing and wasn't used in the ToP.

And that depends on your definition of filler. Filler generally describes secondary arcs/material outside the main story developed by the author to pad things out between arcs in an animated adaptation, even if the anime isn't an adaptation of the manga, plenty of episodes and arcs like the "Copy Vegeta" arc weren't written by Toriyama and just pad things out between the U6 tournament and Goku Black arc, so while you can disagree, I consider it filler.

Fair enough, the writer may not have been trying to directly power scale, but it's still a feat given a direct comparison to another feat in the series, so it's ambiguous enough to take that as you will.

REGARDLESS of whether or not Saiyan Beyond God is retconned or not the story contains various inconsistencies in strength regarding characters. Honestly the most egregious of which probably being Trunks and Kale's various power boosts that suddenly get negated despite them somehow getting "stronger" (I.E. Kale winning against SSB Goku, then struggling against SSG Goku, or Trunks' power-up taking on Black and Zamasu at the same time before failing to do what he did in a previous episode), or sometimes just not making sense in the first place in regard to Trunks.

The story is left ambiguous enough by various factors (and honestly, whichever continuity you prefer) that a statement like "SSG Goku is below SS3 Vegito" isn't necessarily incorrect, because there's nothing in the series that makes you definitively sure, only that both would be below Beerus.

Well, it's all dependent on continuity anyhow. I kinda prefer the manga where SSG and SSB are implied to be relatively close in power (based on Goku's fight with Toppo/Zamasu's statements) Beerus isn't vastly above said forms, and SSB doesn't actually gain any max-power strength until Vegeta's evolution in the ToP and Goku's training with Merus.

[Sadala Elite]

- SSG in BoG was designed from the beginning to be stronger than any Z character. Goku even stated after his 1st fight with Beerus that fusion wouldn't be enough, but was confident about using SSG.

- "Saiyan beyond God" was never retconned (the very idea that it was is baseless headcanon) RoF alone is proof of that. 1st form Freeza (who was weaker than Namek saga Piccolo in Z) in that movie was already far stronger than anyone from the Buu saga (with characters saying that Gotenks couldn't take him on), yet base Goku (post-BoG) could take on Final form Freeza who's over 200x stronger than his 1st form. That alone should show that Goku & Vegeta's bases are far beyond what they were in the Buu arc. There's also Togama (who's equal to Mystic Gohan from the Buu arc) who got casually one-shot by base Vegeta.

There's also the time Base Goku matched Fit Buu (strongest Buu ever) right before the ToP started. That wouldn't be possible if "Saiyan Beyond-God" was retconned.

- The notion that nobody got much stronger before the ToP is easily debunked by the Black arc, which features Goku, Vegeta and Trunks getting several power boost throughout the saga.

Hell, in the anime Goku Black was already the strongest non-fused character (below the GoDs) when he 1st revealed the SSJ Rose form according to Toei (which means that he was already stronger than SSBKKx10 Goku and Hit from the U6 arc). Both Goku and Vegeta in just their regular SSB forms (and SSJ Rage Trunks) far surpassed that Black halfway through the Black arc.

- There's no such thing as "filler" in Super, since neither the anime nor the manga are an adaption of another thing. This means that the Copy-Vegeta arc
counts whether you like it or not.

- "Tenshinhan's taking out of the sniper was said by one of the writers to be a feat on par with when he held back Semi-Perfect Cell, so I'd assume he's still at the same level he was back then in the Buu saga too."

That writer wasn't trying to powerscale. That wasn't what he meant.

- The myth that Saiyan beyond-God was retconned is based purely on biases and incredulity about how strong certain characters are suppose to be. Assuming Saiyan beyond-God ever got retconned actually creates even more inconsistencies than the opposite.

SSG failed though, and in the first place how strong Beerus is in that arc got retconned in the anime immediately.

Saiyan Beyond God is based on SSG being absorbed in Resurrection F, along with Toriyama's statement after Battle of Gods that he wouldn't use SSG again and would instead evolve his Super Saiyan, which came to a head with SSGSS in Resurrection F and was undone when Goku tossed out SSG in the U6 tournament in the manga and the ToP in the anime. It's not baseless at all to say it's a retcon, what I describe is exactly what happened. The Gotenks quote itself is something that was added in the anime, which itself got contradicted/retconned in DBS Broly with Frieza having no clue what Fusion is.

When I refer to no one getting stronger until the ToP, I'm referring to the characters that aren't Saiyans (and 17), besides the fact Krillin's new "power-up" literally amounted to nothing and wasn't used in the ToP.

And that depends on your definition of filler. Filler generally describes secondary arcs/material outside the main story developed by the author to pad things out between arcs in an animated adaptation, even if the anime isn't an adaptation of the manga, plenty of episodes and arcs like the "Copy Vegeta" arc weren't written by Toriyama and just pad things out between the U6 tournament and Goku Black arc, so while you can disagree, I consider it filler.

Fair enough, the writer may not have been trying to directly power scale, but it's still a feat given a direct comparison to another feat in the series, so it's ambiguous enough to take that as you will.

REGARDLESS of whether or not Saiyan Beyond God is retconned or not the story contains various inconsistencies in strength regarding characters. Honestly the most egregious of which probably being Trunks and Kale's various power boosts that suddenly get negated despite them somehow getting "stronger" (I.E. Kale winning against SSB Goku, then struggling against SSG Goku, or Trunks' power-up taking on Black and Zamasu at the same time before failing to do what he did in a previous episode), or sometimes just not making sense in the first place in regard to Trunks.

The story is left ambiguous enough by various factors (and honestly, whichever continuity you prefer) that a statement like "SSG Goku is below SS3 Vegito" isn't necessarily incorrect, because there's nothing in the series that makes you definitively sure, only that both would be below Beerus.

Well, it's all dependent on continuity anyhow. I kinda prefer the manga where SSG and SSB are implied to be relatively close in power (based on Goku's fight with Toppo/Zamasu's statements) Beerus isn't vastly above said forms, and SSB doesn't actually gain any max-power strength until Vegeta's evolution in the ToP and Goku's training with Merus.

- That fact that Goku understood immediately that Buu arc Fusion wouldn't be enough against Beerus, yet was more confident with SSG is logical proof that SSG Goku was beyond all of Z. (Plus there was a guide from Toei in 2013 that talked about SSG being the strongest power up so far.) If SSG was weaker than Buu arc Vegito then Goku would have never thought that he could take on Beerus with it at all. All versions of the BoG story make it clear that SSG is beyond anything from before.

- Toriyama never said that Goku wouldn't use SSG ever again after BoG. And your argument about SSB makes no sense, because SSB is simply what happens when you combine SSG with SSJ1. So if Goku couldn't use SSG again after BoG then SSB would have never existed.

And feats & statements from the RoF arc supports Saiyan beyond God still being a thing and never retconned.

Also, no, Goku did NOT absorb the SSG transformation in BoG (a common misconception), he absorbed the POWER that he had with the form at the time into his base (that's what Beerus said). That's why Goku could still use SSG again after BoG with his improved Base (and Vegeta's base would reach that level after 6 months of traininh with Whis).

- Toriyama himself came up with the Copy-Vegeta arc, so the "its just filler" argument doesn't work. Plus, the events of so called "filler" arcs like Copy-Vegeta and the Hit rematch arc were referenced in later arcs, which means that they absolutely happened and can't be ignored.

- Your Kale and F.Trunks examples fail, because it fails to take into the fact that there opponents also get stronger as the arcs go on (Goku gets a power boost after every time he uses UI, so a stronger Kale losing to a later SSG Goku makes sense. Goku Black was outright stated and shown to be getter stronger at a faster rate than any of the heroes).

- Beerus IS massively above even Complete SSB in the manga (he easily one-shots CSSB Vegeta after the latter gets said form, which is equal to M.Zamasu in the manga).

[Grimlock]

- Toriyama himself came up with the Copy-Vegeta arc

Source?

[DBZ Macky]

With a little suspension of belief, I don't care if Cabba and co. are stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks in Base.

It's just that Super tries to make Krillin, Tenshinhan and Roshi relevant, as well as Future Trunks who barely defeated Dabra a few years back.
Am I seriously supposed to believe that these guys were able to fight on par with opponents who are at Gotenks' level at a bare minimum?