Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Grimlock]

“ultimate” is a fan-made name we use to refer to that form.

You do know that Ultimate is an official name, right?

[MechaTrunks]

- Its funny how you keep dodging the simple fact that Toriyama approved of the guides. Which means that he approved of SSJ1 being 50x for now on. Of he didn't then all of these guides would say SSJ1 is 10x. Logic

You cant deny reality in favor for baseless headcanon forever lol.

It's funny how you keep dodging the fact that the author said that 50x was exaggerated and that he drew those scenes with a 10x on mind.
You can say anything you want about the guides (do I have to take your word when I needed 3 posts just to make you understand the meaning of Toriyama's words?), the thing is that the author retconed that 50x multiplier.

Anything else you say I already will answer it in my response to Sora Saiyan's message.

I can't be bothered to continue with this since you keep using one line of dialogue when countless others contradict it..so this has gotta be for the last time now, the threads getting screwed up by this.

Sorry but no, I'm using various pieces of dialogue (including your own ones) but also every single fight of the series where injuries weaken the characters.
The one saying that Freeza was an exception to the rule it's you, so you are the one that has to pove that fact and not me.

Firstly, yeah I checked the strength checker and the Viz version messed that up, my bad. But even so Freezas reaction to Goku saying that confirms that he knows his max power will drain him bad.

Freeza had never fought at 100% in his life, so yeah, he was aware that he wouldn't resist it for a long period of time.
But that doesn't mean that he could know the extent of that lack of stamina, and at which point it would make any effect. When Goku explains him the reason he quits, Freeza is surprised -he maybe hoped to last a few minutes more while fighting at max strength-.

Let's not forget that Gohan also says that Freezas Ki is getting bigger AGAIN, when Freeza starts to reveal his true power.

Because it was getting bigger, I mean, Freeza was powering up at that moment. It doesn't mean that it didn't decrese because of the injuries, just that it was increasing which is a fact.

Also instead of saying that Goku ki sensing is so awful that he can't tell where Freezas power sits, especially when we're talking about a power difference of many multiples, don't forget that this is the Goku that basically knew immediately upon Freeza stating that he could beat him with half his power that he wasn't bluffing before any blow was thrown (where are you getting that Goku needs a scouter to accurately track a fighters power at this stage?).

Goku is not awful sensing Kis, but like any other character that senses Kis, he can only sense them in relation to his own ki.
When Freeza said that with 50% of his power he could beat Goku, Goku observed how Freeza went from 25% to 50% while he was standing there so obviously he could notice that increase in strength.
But this doesn't apply when the Genkidama, because it also impacts and weakens Goku in the process.
Goku after the Genkidama was not the same Goku from BEFORE the Genkidama (he couldn't even swim by himself at that point), and after that he turns SSJ which obviously changes his PL again and his perception of Kis as a result.

In any case, the thing is that Goku and Freeza never speak in absolute terms but in relative ones.

I've already mentioned Goku stating that he was going to fight Freeza when Freeza was at his best (and not his best at that moment as the conversation with Kaio then followed up immediately with Goku talking to Freeza doesn't imply that in the slightest)

Look at his best meant that he wanted Freeza to use 100% of his strength, not that Goku would in any way heal Freeza's injuries (he wouldn't be able to do so even if he wanted).
I mean, you interprete that sentence as Goku insinuating that Freeza's power hasn't fallen at all, when Goku simply says he will wait for Freeza to use all his strength (his best at that moment).

That's just Goku. I'm referring to a Headcanon where mental gymnastics are used to fit a loose piece of dialogue when countless things contradict it later

Look the facts all points towards Freeza being weakened: every single fight in the whole series follows the same principles, and the "things" that you say contradict it are YOUR TAKE on some dialogues, but that's not a solid proof.
Those dialogues can be interpreted in different ways that don't contradict the whole logic of the series, nor Freeza stating that his power has decreased.
Furthermore, the author has told us what he thought of those scenes and those dialogues. Toriyama said that he wrote SSJ Goku in Namek as a 10-fold power up, so that dialogue that you say implies that Freeza didn't lose any power... it clearly didn't imply that becasue the author is telling you he was writting that with SSJ Goku as 10x base Goku and not the exaggerated 50x of the guides.

Also the Vegeta example is plain bad, Goku knows he can defeat Vegeta, he knew nothing of zenkais.

??? In their first fight Goku lost miserably, how could he know that he would be able to win?
Goku never cared if he would win or not BEFORE a fight (during the fight he cared a lot, of course), he just wanted to fight against the strongest oponents.

The Toriyama thing is mega awkward since it makes no sense either way. And TBF the guide we know he kept it in, is a guide where he had an absolute massive amount of input, so he could've changed it if he really saw fit.

Way to dismiss the author take on the scene.
Look, it absolutely makes sense, a different thing is that you took those dialogues in a different sense and as a result, ended having a very different impression of that fight.
But you still haven't been able to explain why Freeza's injuries shouldn't affect him when Cell was affected and every other character in the series is also affected as well either.
Regarding the guides, Toriyama may have written every single part of them except for the strength checker, and still not be aware of the numbers provided there until it was already published.
The sole fact that in a question that only asked him about the SSJ's hair color he took the opportunity to address that fact alredy proves that it wasn't his vison of the series.

The issue also lies with what Toriyama deemed as "only a 10 fold change from what it was up to that point". Did he forget about the invisible Kaioken, or just factor it into Gokus standard power as he was constantly using that power? Thus he instead pictured SSJ as a 10x increase on top of that? Thats very much in the realms of possibility, and I guess if that was the case a 50x increase on top of that would be absurd.

Toriyama says that the 50x increase was an EXAGGERATION, in other words, that it was too much. Your reasoning of the invisible KK would make that 10x increase a 100x increase, which wouldn't make even less sense in the context of the sentence.
He was addressing the 50x, there's no doubt about that.

It still doesnt make sense, but neither does the other.

It not making sense TO YOU doens't mean it doesn't make sense for ayone else. I mean, it totally does make sense to me, and I had already reached that conclusion BEFORE even knowing about the existence of this interview.

Anything that comes from Toriyama after the originals mangas run will be questionable. The best thing to do is read the series for what his intention may have been, and since he was putting words to these characters it's that SSJ definitely wasn't weaker than any KK shown prior.

It doesn't work like this. The words he put in those characters mouths never negate what Toriyama (or myself) says. It's just your way of understanding those diaogues that negates them, but then again, characters in DB never speak in absolute terms but in relative ones to the situation they're in, and that surely wasn't the first time either.

Anyway, to end this.
Chapter 329.
Cold: A small planet, wouldn't it be better if you wiped it out in one shot.
Freeza: That wouldn't satisfy me, I want to make Goku well acquainted with my powered up self

Since you're fixated on taking Freezas one throw away line of dialogue that doesn't actually confirm that his ki weakened (especially since it's constantly confirmed that his ki didn't decrease by every character present who can sense ki), we have Freeza himself stating that he's now stronger than he used to be

Chapter 330 page 9.7
Yamaha: So this guy called Freeza, has such terrible ab... absurdly large ki?
Gohan: This isn't it, he gets much stronger.

Confirming that Trunks defeated Freeza before he got to full power.. which was obvious, we know Freeza wouldn't start with his true power since he's never shown such.

1. Someone getting injured and knowing he has lost strength is a constant in the series. Freeza knew he lost strength, he didn't knew how much.
You on the other hand are at the same time arguing complete ignorance of the characters when it interests you (Freeza saying that he has lost power because of the injuries is not true because he couldn't know what every single character in the series knows) and at the same time complete, omniscient knowledge of themselves.

And what about them being right in the things they always get right, but them being able to be wrong in the situations tons of fighters have been wrong?
Vegeta thought he was stronger than Freeza even when he was able to sense both of their powers because he hadn't tested his zenkay still.
Cell thought he could beat SSJ2 Gohan despite being able to sense kis because he still hadn't tested his own ki at maximum strength.
Vegeta and Raditz are both surprised at how weakened they were in different parts of their respective fights. Are you telling me that none of them knew they had weakened? Of course they knew, it's just that they couldn't possibly knew how much weakened they were until they tried to fight at max and saw how weak their attacks were.

So again, characters are aware of changes in their state but can't ever know their state in absolute terms before testing themselves.

Another thing you're missing is that Trunks, after transforming into a SSJ, gave Freeza plenty of time to attack. And Freeza was TERRIFIED. To say that Freeza attacked while hidding most of his power is NONSENSE.
Heck, the other time Toriyama has written Freeza (RoF), he went directly to final form because as he said "he didn't want to be surprised again".
In Namek (the only time we knew Freeza) it was coky Freeza, against Trunks we have terrified Freeza. It's obvious that if he had more power he would have used it.

So he fought with all the strength he had, and he miserably lost against a SSJ that had the same power than a SSJ that had a fraction of his power in Namek.

You should provide some solid facts and other examples of your stance like I do.

Regards!

[Sora Saiyan]

Dude you're flipping things to fit your own narrative no matter what. I'm taking things more literal, but surely you must understand that that once you assume character is lying every other time they say something that doesn't fit your narrative it can't fit. Same with the Mecha Freeza line, he's lying to himself and his father for what reason? Surely Freeza knows he's stronger, like how you're arguing that he knew he was weaker before, and that line allows us to know he's now stronger thus providing information about Freezas current state as compared to what he was previously. It's pretty good when an author does that for the reader instead of making them look to deeply into everything. And unlike the thing we were arguing about before, there's no contradicting statements from.other characters with this one. Also Trunks didn't give any time for Freeza to do anything..he transformed, Freeza went into shock, and then panic blasts him, thinks he's wiped out and then gets killed by Trunks. We know from namek that Freeza takes a long ass time to power up to full, and in RoF Freeza only went final form against Goku because he grossly underestimates anybody that isn't his main target. He also didn't go golden, so again he didn't go all out then either. No need in making any more assumptions here, Freeza takes a long time to reach full power, and he states he has powered up in his Mecha form. Everything fits with the way Trunks disposed of him too. Trunks doesn't love a fight like Goku, so no contradictions in this regard so it's a perfect fit for what we, the readers, need to know.

Btw with Ki dropping in regards to Cell its a little different, Cell expanded a lot of Ki in the fight with Goku, to the point wheres he huffing after using that giant barrier. Freeza never strained the way Cell did in that fight. Also Cell did have to regenerate a lot, which proves he received a lot more damage than Freeza did from the Genki dama, ya know, since Freeza was still basically fully intact, but Cell was literally blown apart. Goku also tells us his Ki is still massive. The same happens with the final flash, in all these instances Cell is harmed more than Freeza since Freeza was still fully intact, but Cell was literally blown apart, and his ki didn't really drop.

Also arrogant characters always make sensing mistakes. They live in denial, constantly thinking they're the best, but Goku on the other hand isn't that guy, provide a time Goku overestimated himself when compared to his opponent when he was wrong, and adept at sensing ki. The dudes rather humble. He made a little mistake with Gohan once, but he wasn't wrong about Gohan being able to defeat Cell, it was just Gohans willingness to fight and unleash his rage, but Goku was dead on with the outcome when in regards to Gohans power in comparison to Cells. That dude knows fighting. Even so this has gone way too far and I can't reply in depth anymore, it's overstayed it welcome and should end.

[Sadala Elite]

- Its funny how you keep dodging the simple fact that Toriyama approved of the guides. Which means that he approved of SSJ1 being 50x for now on. Of he didn't then all of these guides would say SSJ1 is 10x. Logic

You cant deny reality in favor for baseless headcanon forever lol.

It's funny how you keep dodging the fact that the author said that 50x was exaggerated and that he drew those scenes with a 10x on mind.
You can say anything you want about the guides (do I have to take your word when I needed 3 posts just to make you understand the meaning of Toriyama's words?), the thing is that the author retconed that 50x multiplier.

Anything else you say I already will answer it in my response to Sora Saiyan's message.

I can't be bothered to continue with this since you keep using one line of dialogue when countless others contradict it..so this has gotta be for the last time now, the threads getting screwed up by this.

Sorry but no, I'm using various pieces of dialogue (including your own ones) but also every single fight of the series where injuries weaken the characters.
The one saying that Freeza was an exception to the rule it's you, so you are the one that has to pove that fact and not me.

Firstly, yeah I checked the strength checker and the Viz version messed that up, my bad. But even so Freezas reaction to Goku saying that confirms that he knows his max power will drain him bad.

Freeza had never fought at 100% in his life, so yeah, he was aware that he wouldn't resist it for a long period of time.
But that doesn't mean that he could know the extent of that lack of stamina, and at which point it would make any effect. When Goku explains him the reason he quits, Freeza is surprised -he maybe hoped to last a few minutes more while fighting at max strength-.

Let's not forget that Gohan also says that Freezas Ki is getting bigger AGAIN, when Freeza starts to reveal his true power.

Because it was getting bigger, I mean, Freeza was powering up at that moment. It doesn't mean that it didn't decrese because of the injuries, just that it was increasing which is a fact.

Also instead of saying that Goku ki sensing is so awful that he can't tell where Freezas power sits, especially when we're talking about a power difference of many multiples, don't forget that this is the Goku that basically knew immediately upon Freeza stating that he could beat him with half his power that he wasn't bluffing before any blow was thrown (where are you getting that Goku needs a scouter to accurately track a fighters power at this stage?).

Goku is not awful sensing Kis, but like any other character that senses Kis, he can only sense them in relation to his own ki.
When Freeza said that with 50% of his power he could beat Goku, Goku observed how Freeza went from 25% to 50% while he was standing there so obviously he could notice that increase in strength.
But this doesn't apply when the Genkidama, because it also impacts and weakens Goku in the process.
Goku after the Genkidama was not the same Goku from BEFORE the Genkidama (he couldn't even swim by himself at that point), and after that he turns SSJ which obviously changes his PL again and his perception of Kis as a result.

In any case, the thing is that Goku and Freeza never speak in absolute terms but in relative ones.

I've already mentioned Goku stating that he was going to fight Freeza when Freeza was at his best (and not his best at that moment as the conversation with Kaio then followed up immediately with Goku talking to Freeza doesn't imply that in the slightest)

Look at his best meant that he wanted Freeza to use 100% of his strength, not that Goku would in any way heal Freeza's injuries (he wouldn't be able to do so even if he wanted).
I mean, you interprete that sentence as Goku insinuating that Freeza's power hasn't fallen at all, when Goku simply says he will wait for Freeza to use all his strength (his best at that moment).

That's just Goku. I'm referring to a Headcanon where mental gymnastics are used to fit a loose piece of dialogue when countless things contradict it later

Look the facts all points towards Freeza being weakened: every single fight in the whole series follows the same principles, and the "things" that you say contradict it are YOUR TAKE on some dialogues, but that's not a solid proof.
Those dialogues can be interpreted in different ways that don't contradict the whole logic of the series, nor Freeza stating that his power has decreased.
Furthermore, the author has told us what he thought of those scenes and those dialogues. Toriyama said that he wrote SSJ Goku in Namek as a 10-fold power up, so that dialogue that you say implies that Freeza didn't lose any power... it clearly didn't imply that becasue the author is telling you he was writting that with SSJ Goku as 10x base Goku and not the exaggerated 50x of the guides.

Also the Vegeta example is plain bad, Goku knows he can defeat Vegeta, he knew nothing of zenkais.

??? In their first fight Goku lost miserably, how could he know that he would be able to win?
Goku never cared if he would win or not BEFORE a fight (during the fight he cared a lot, of course), he just wanted to fight against the strongest oponents.

The Toriyama thing is mega awkward since it makes no sense either way. And TBF the guide we know he kept it in, is a guide where he had an absolute massive amount of input, so he could've changed it if he really saw fit.

Way to dismiss the author take on the scene.
Look, it absolutely makes sense, a different thing is that you took those dialogues in a different sense and as a result, ended having a very different impression of that fight.
But you still haven't been able to explain why Freeza's injuries shouldn't affect him when Cell was affected and every other character in the series is also affected as well either.
Regarding the guides, Toriyama may have written every single part of them except for the strength checker, and still not be aware of the numbers provided there until it was already published.
The sole fact that in a question that only asked him about the SSJ's hair color he took the opportunity to address that fact alredy proves that it wasn't his vison of the series.

The issue also lies with what Toriyama deemed as "only a 10 fold change from what it was up to that point". Did he forget about the invisible Kaioken, or just factor it into Gokus standard power as he was constantly using that power? Thus he instead pictured SSJ as a 10x increase on top of that? Thats very much in the realms of possibility, and I guess if that was the case a 50x increase on top of that would be absurd.

Toriyama says that the 50x increase was an EXAGGERATION, in other words, that it was too much. Your reasoning of the invisible KK would make that 10x increase a 100x increase, which wouldn't make even less sense in the context of the sentence.
He was addressing the 50x, there's no doubt about that.

It still doesnt make sense, but neither does the other.

It not making sense TO YOU doens't mean it doesn't make sense for ayone else. I mean, it totally does make sense to me, and I had already reached that conclusion BEFORE even knowing about the existence of this interview.

Anything that comes from Toriyama after the originals mangas run will be questionable. The best thing to do is read the series for what his intention may have been, and since he was putting words to these characters it's that SSJ definitely wasn't weaker than any KK shown prior.

It doesn't work like this. The words he put in those characters mouths never negate what Toriyama (or myself) says. It's just your way of understanding those diaogues that negates them, but then again, characters in DB never speak in absolute terms but in relative ones to the situation they're in, and that surely wasn't the first time either.

Anyway, to end this.
Chapter 329.
Cold: A small planet, wouldn't it be better if you wiped it out in one shot.
Freeza: That wouldn't satisfy me, I want to make Goku well acquainted with my powered up self

Since you're fixated on taking Freezas one throw away line of dialogue that doesn't actually confirm that his ki weakened (especially since it's constantly confirmed that his ki didn't decrease by every character present who can sense ki), we have Freeza himself stating that he's now stronger than he used to be

Chapter 330 page 9.7
Yamaha: So this guy called Freeza, has such terrible ab... absurdly large ki?
Gohan: This isn't it, he gets much stronger.

Confirming that Trunks defeated Freeza before he got to full power.. which was obvious, we know Freeza wouldn't start with his true power since he's never shown such.

1. Someone getting injured and knowing he has lost strength is a constant in the series. Freeza knew he lost strength, he didn't knew how much.
You on the other hand are at the same time arguing complete ignorance of the characters when it interests you (Freeza saying that he has lost power because of the injuries is not true because he couldn't know what every single character in the series knows) and at the same time complete, omniscient knowledge of themselves.

And what about them being right in the things they always get right, but them being able to be wrong in the situations tons of fighters have been wrong?
Vegeta thought he was stronger than Freeza even when he was able to sense both of their powers because he hadn't tested his zenkay still.
Cell thought he could beat SSJ2 Gohan despite being able to sense kis because he still hadn't tested his own ki at maximum strength.
Vegeta and Raditz are both surprised at how weakened they were in different parts of their respective fights. Are you telling me that none of them knew they had weakened? Of course they knew, it's just that they couldn't possibly knew how much weakened they were until they tried to fight at max and saw how weak their attacks were.

So again, characters are aware of changes in their state but can't ever know their state in absolute terms before testing themselves.

Another thing you're missing is that Trunks, after transforming into a SSJ, gave Freeza plenty of time to attack. And Freeza was TERRIFIED. To say that Freeza attacked while hidding most of his power is NONSENSE.
Heck, the other time Toriyama has written Freeza (RoF), he went directly to final form because as he said "he didn't want to be surprised again".
In Namek (the only time we knew Freeza) it was coky Freeza, against Trunks we have terrified Freeza. It's obvious that if he had more power he would have used it.

So he fought with all the strength he had, and he miserably lost against a SSJ that had the same power than a SSJ that had a fraction of his power in Namek.

You should provide some solid facts and other examples of your stance like I do.

Regards!

Its funny how you still fail to post any proof of your headcanon through manga scans or anime clips, still fail to prove that Toriyama had nothing to do with the guides, still fail prove that Z Freeza was ever stronger than any SSJ or Android, and still fail to prove that Kaioken was stronger than ANY version of SSJ1. Still delusional

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

You know, ruminating on things a bit, I'm left wondering how Piccolo compares to Buu now. Are the 2 basically equal, is Big Green finally stronger, etc.

From the looks of things to me, I feel like the 2 of them are pretty close in power now, discounting Buu's Dai Kaioshin display.

[Sora Saiyan]

You know, ruminating on things a bit, I'm left wondering how Piccolo compares to Buu now. Are the 2 basically equal, is Big Green finally stronger, etc.

From the looks of things to me, I feel like the 2 of them are pretty close in power now, discounting Buu's Dai Kaioshin display.

I think Buu with that power up from Dai Kaioshin should be ahead now, but this Piccolo is definitely stronger than Buu before that. He took some shots from a ridiculously OP character. I'd want to lowball him, but I can't see how he could be any lower than SSJ3 Goku honestly.

[ZombieVito]

Goku does mention that Gohan isn't using SS2 himself, to which Gohan responds that he wants to do it differently. Presumably, SS2 Gohan would've been sufficient, but perhaps he was doing it in Ultimate in order to specifically unlock its full potential.

Unlike the Super Saiyan forms, the Ultimate state doesn't have to have a set multiplier since it's based on pulling out potential. It could be as simple as Gohan needing to unlock its further power past SS2 once he worked his regular forms up to match Goku's level in the same forms.

Gohan states he's using his full power so Ultimate his is full power there not SS2.

[Lionel]

You know, ruminating on things a bit, I'm left wondering how Piccolo compares to Buu now. Are the 2 basically equal, is Big Green finally stronger, etc.

From the looks of things to me, I feel like the 2 of them are pretty close in power now, discounting Buu's Dai Kaioshin display.

TobyS did present some counterarguments when I brought up the proxy-evidence argument of Goku's mental image sparring against Z villains as a Super Saiyan and the subsequent necessity of Super Saiyan for Vegeta to handle a beleaguered Frost, after having fought Piccolo roughly even-sidedly, two arcs later in the Champa tournament.

I would like to mention that the occasions where image training was used, the characters involved appeared to be operating at levels congruent with their actual strength. Krillin and Gohan looked evenly matched during their session on the Namekian ship -- the later outpouring of strength to dispense with Banan and Sui seem to corroborate their comparability as they both projected a PL of 1500. Some of Super's examples include Golden Freeza mentally envisioning combat scenarios where he killed an untransformed Goku and base Future Trunks being swiftly taken out by Black to the point of it physically manifesting blood loss in real life.

If the mental sparring holds any merit of indication then it would seem Frost, and by extension Piccolo, are closer to the Super Saiyans in the Champa arc than their untransformed levels would be capable of using (including Kaioken if that's even recalled at all). Can we say that exhausted Frost and Champa arc Piccolo are ahead of BOG Super Saiyans? SSJ Goku seemed poised to fight Kid Buu during his image training in the first chapter of Super.

[DBZ Macky]

SSJ Goku seemed poised to fight Kid Buu during his image training in the first chapter of Super.

Goku doesn't actually finish the fight so we don't know if he'd have proceeded to transform into SS3 or not. Not to mention, I recall his expression being visibly pretty tense when he moved from Cell to Buu.

Also guys, if anyone would like to discuss Heroes' scaling with me, I think the major factor in Heroes' horrendous scaling is the fact that SSB Kaio-Ken Vegetto couldn't defeat Base Cumber. If we ignore that, the scaling gets a lot better and simpler in my opinion. Thoughts?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

SSJ Goku seemed poised to fight Kid Buu during his image training in the first chapter of Super.

Goku doesn't actually finish the fight so we don't know if he'd have proceeded to transform into SS3 or not. Not to mention, I recall his expression being visibly pretty tense when he moved from Cell to Buu.

Also guys, if anyone would like to discuss Heroes' scaling with me, I think the major factor in Heroes' horrendous scaling is the fact that SSB Kaio-Ken Vegetto couldn't defeat Base Cumber. If we ignore that, the scaling gets a lot better and simpler in my opinion. Thoughts?

Makes sense. All the SSB-level Fusion characters are generally portrayed as equivalent to one another, and the manga showcases similar consistency.

[Lionel]

SSJ Goku seemed poised to fight Kid Buu during his image training in the first chapter of Super.

Goku doesn't actually finish the fight so we don't know if he'd have proceeded to transform into SS3 or not. Not to mention, I recall his expression being visibly pretty tense when he moved from Cell to Buu.

If he was intending to fight Kid Buu as SSJ3 then it seems odd that he would put himself in a more precarious position by transforming while rushing his opponent. The panels depict Goku assuming a combat posture before charging with an emitted aura.

[Hugo Boss]

You do know that Ultimate is an official name, right?

As official as “Super Buu“ or “Kid Buu“, which we take from video games. Though it comes from licensed products, “Ultimate” isn’t the name used in Dragon Ball Super. Full Power is how Gohan calls his strongest form, which @ZombieVito is confusing with his actual full power.

[Grimlock]

As official as “Super Buu“ or “Kid Buu“,

Not quite. Those are "official" because they are used in English material, but that's about it. No Japanese material use those terms, which is the only version that matters. It's the same thing as Freeza's race's name, "Frost Demon" (thanks to Cell), but since that's a name that only appears in the English version, Freeza's race still has no name.

The same can't be said about Ultimate, which appears in some video games (Japanese versions) and Dragon Ball Super notes (translation). I do have to encourage you to do some research before making such bold claims, you know.

Though it comes from licensed products, “Ultimate” isn’t the name used in Dragon Ball Super. Full Power is how Gohan calls his strongest form.

If you are referring to this moment, then not really. Gohan merely says that he's using all his power at that moment. It doesn't mean that that is the name of Ultimate. Super Saiyan 3 Goku could have normally said "this is my full power" to Majin Buu, it wouldn't mean "full power" would be the actual name for Super Saiyan 3. That's a generic line, nothing more.

[The Undying]

No Japanese material use those terms, which is the only version that matters.

At least two games (Shin Butoden, Ultimate Battle 22) have used 超ブウ for Super Boo. That's probably where Funimation got it from.

Kid/Chibi Boo is indeed an English fandom thing, even if I personally find it more convenient than "Pure Boo" for discussion's sake.

[MechaTrunks]

Dude you're flipping things to fit your own narrative no matter what. I'm taking things more literal

You're the one saying that Freeza is the only character in the series that doesn't lose power when he is injured but stamina (even when he loses all his power after he is cut by the kienzan to the point he can't even fly).
I mean, that alone should already be a red flag to your theory.

And nope, you're taking things out of context, which is different. I mean, my 100% meaning going all out and not having your power 100% restored is an equally literal interpretation of what Goku says in Namek.
We're both 100% respecting the meaning of the sentence, but you take it as if Goky spoke in absolute, omniscient terms while I take it as if he spoke from their POW as a character of the fiction.

but surely you must understand that that once you assume character is lying every other time they say something that doesn't fit your narrative it can't fit. Same with the Mecha Freeza line, he's lying to himself and his father for what reason?

Was Vegeta lying when he thought he could defeat Freeza? No, he wasn't lying, he was simply WRONG because he still hadn't tested his powers.
Being wrong and lying are very different things.
Freeza had no reason to lie to himself but we know he never trained so he never tested his mecha form's power before going to the earth (he didn't fight with his father, nor anything).
Freeza felt recovered (in Namek he managed to match SSJ Goku while weakened) and from the fact that he was already going at his maximum strength in his final form we also know that he had no stamina problems.

But his claims are contradicted, not just by other character's statements but also by facts:
1. Gohan senses his ki, says it's much lower than in Namek and assumes that Freeza is going supressed. But then, when Freeza fights Trunks he doesn't power up despite Trunks letting him time to do so meaning that Freeza had always been at max power (the mecha implants allowed him to do this).
The fact being stated here is that Mecha's Ki is lower, him being supressed is just Gohan's assumption because the Freeza he knew in Namek was constantly supressing his Ki.

2. He badly loses to SSJ Trunks that had the same power of SSJ Goku. Freeza in Namek was able to follow SSJ Goku's movements and fight at his same level for a few minutes. Mecha Freeza can't follow Trunks movements at all and is killed in a single blow despite being one of the most sturdy characters in the series in comparison to the PL he had.

3. His performance in the fight (the speed at dodging Trunk's attack) is the same as his father while transformed. We know that Namek Freeza was above his father for how they speak (Freeza constantly reminding everyone that HE is number 1 in the universe and his father accepting it, saying that the number 1 of the universe has to be from his family), and now Mecha Freeza barely manages to fight at his father's level.

I mean, Toriyama goes the extra mile to make very clear that Mecha and his father were wrong:
SSJ Trunks could've simply been much stronger than SSJ Namek Goku and call it a day and Goku could again surpass Trunks in the 3 year training that would follow.
But instead Gohan said Trunk's power was like his father's in Namek, Goku also says that he hasn't had time to increase his power in Yadrat and in the showdown with Trunks they're both at the same level (in fact, Goku's finger technique even makes him seem superior).

Surely Freeza knows he's stronger, like how you're arguing that he knew he was weaker before, and that line allows us to know he's now stronger thus providing information about Freezas current state as compared to what he was previously.

He FELT stronger, which is different than being stronger.

Look, the zenkays and the injuries worked in the exact same way:
When Vegeta came back from a zenkay he knew his powers had increased but didn't knew how much until he tried.
When Freeza was injured he knew he had weakened but couldn't know how much weakened he was because he had nothing to compare him to (was SSJ Goku much stronger or was he much weaker than before? He couldn't know -Goku neither, by the way-).

The only difference with Mecha is that with Mecha Freeza makes a wrong assumption (that he is totally recovered) that he doesn't bother to check.
I mean, he lost in Namek because of the stamina so he checked his stamina and saw it had improved a lot thanks to the Mecha implants and headed directly to earth with his father. And how do I know that? Becasue Freeza was at his max when he reached the earth.
And how do I know that he didn't train to see how strong he was? Because both him and his father are very wrong and get killed because of that mistake.

And unlike the thing we were arguing about before, there's no contradicting statements from.other characters with this one.

Besides Gohan sensing mecha's power and stating it was much lower, you have FACTS contradicting those statements, which is even more solid proof that they are wrong.
I mean, two statements contradicting each other is a thing, we can argue who was right and who was wrong.
But when hard facts contradict a statement, then the statement is 100% wrong for sure.

Also Trunks didn't give any time for Freeza to do anything..he transformed, Freeza went into shock, and then panic blasts him, thinks he's wiped out and then gets killed by Trunks.

Besides this not being true and Trunks saying that he would let Freeza attack with all his strength, that would be very bad writting.
So, I'm Freeza and I'm much stronger but I'm still terrorized at the fact that Trunks is a SSJ. Ok, because of the panic I fire a ki blast instead of powering up because maybe Trunks was lying when he said that he would wait for me to attack at max strength and the panic made me react in that way... and now I suddenly go from total panic to "heheheh I already killed him in one blast" without even increasing my strength and still using just a fraction of it?

I mean, nope, that's not how you write a character.
On the other hand, that's my take on the scene:
I'm Freeza and I've completely recovered from my injuries and have no more stamina problems. This time my father comes with me so no one will distract me and there won't be cheap shots like before.
But shit, what's this? There are more SSJs? And the other one is going to arrive at any moment!(terror)
Fuck it, I'll dispatch that SSJ before the other one arrives (firing a Ki blast with all my strength that I'm not aware is much lower than before because I'm Freeza and I don't train).
Oh, wow, I've already disintegrated him in one blast?

You don't need a bipolar Freeza that changes from panic to cocky without a reason to explain that scene.

Btw with Ki dropping in regards to Cell its a little different, Cell expanded a lot of Ki in the fight with Goku, to the point wheres he huffing after using that giant barrier. Freeza never strained the way Cell did in that fight.

Freeza stated to be nearly killed and badly injured after the Genkidama, Cell never stated to be badly injured in the fight.
I mean, Raditz was not huffing either and his power had decreased a ton (much more than Freeza in Namek) just because of Gohan's headbutt.

We have to go with what the manga tells, Freeza says he is badly injured and no one says "Freeza has survived the Genkidama unaffected" to contradict him.

Also arrogant characters always make sensing mistakes. They live in denial

Living in denial is one thing and being retarded another one.
Was Vegeta living in denyal when he cried in front of Freeza? Come on, he simply didn't know the extent of his power and challenged Freeza thinking he would surpass him.
Cell lives in denial, but not even he question's Gohan superiority once he has proven superior (and that's why he completely changes his fighting style). Even if he still tried to auto-convince himself tha he was the better fighter, he never denied the hard facts and surely was never cocky while Gohan had the upperhand.

Regards!

[Hugo Boss]

snip

Actually, the translation you got from Japanese Dragon Ball Super notes highlight “Ultimate” in the middle of the sentence to make it easy to distinguish from his base. It’s not a literal translation. Ask Herms if you have any doubts. And the other one is from Budokai Tenkaichi games, I suppose.

I don’t know how extensive your research is, but the anime and the manga don’t use “Ultimate”, which for the purpose of this discussion is what I would I call the official name.

The moment in question is that one, but Gohan doesn’t say he would use his literal “full power” in that moment. Subtext implies he still was suppressed and only uses his full power later. Check when he uses “zen ryoku” in front of Super Saiyan Blue. It easily comes up as a generic line, but I would encourage you to research a little more extensively.

[Sora Saiyan]

Also guys, if anyone would like to discuss Heroes' scaling with me, I think the major factor in Heroes' horrendous scaling is the fact that SSB Kaio-Ken Vegetto couldn't defeat Base Cumber. If we ignore that, the scaling gets a lot better and simpler in my opinion. Thoughts?

I think Heroes will always have issues when characters take attacks from characters that should instantly kill them. But the SSJB Vegetto thing is the biggest mess if memory serves correctly. Jiren was also displayed very poorly for me.

Also, sorry for letting the thread get so off topic guys.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

As far as Gohan vs Goku goes, I do lean more to the idea that Gohan was suppressing his Ultimate power (I use "Ultimate" because it's simple and effective at conveying the change) but putting in a lot of effort, only to really let loose once his dad gives in to his request to use more of full power.

Kinda like how Perfect Cell was suppressed against Goku during the Cell Games but was putting in a lot of effort in the fight regardless in order to test himself against a worthy opponent.

[Grimlock]

At least two games (Shin Butoden, Ultimate Battle 22) have used 超ブウ for Super Boo. That's probably where Funimation got it from.

Damn, you are right. Dragon Ball Z: Ultimate Battle 22 wasn't one I played that much, but I did play it in Japanese version. If only I had better memory.

So there is precedence when it comes "Super Buu" and more importantly, it comes right from a Japanese source. Thanks.

And the other one is from Budokai Tenkaichi games, I suppose.

Yes. What's your point?

I don’t know how extensive your research is, but the anime and the manga don’t use “Ultimate”, which for the purpose of this discussion is what I would I call the official name.

It wasn't too much extensive because finding sources where Ultimate is used in Japanese material isn't difficult. Which does get me to wonder that, if it's that easy, how can someone say Ultimate is a "fanmade" name.

The purpose of this dicussion is to use any name that was never used in-universe? Ultimate is an unnamed transformation until this day. All the sources naming it are outside ones.

Gohan doesn’t say he would use his literal “full power” in that moment. Subtext implies he still was suppressed and only uses his full power later. Check when he uses “zen ryoku” in front of Super Saiyan Blue. It easily comes up as a generic line, but I would encourage you to research a little more extensively.

That sounds more like your headcanon than anything. And I'm not into semantics here. That means absolutely nothing. One is an English term and the other is a Japanese one. "Gattai" is used for Potara and "Fyujion" is used for Metamoru. Like I said, using different words for the same thing doesn't mean anything.

[ZombieVito]

As far as Gohan vs Goku goes, I do lean more to the idea that Gohan was suppressing his Ultimate power (I use "Ultimate" because it's simple and effective at conveying the change) but putting in a lot of effort, only to really let loose once his dad gives in to his request to use more of full power.

Kinda like how Perfect Cell was suppressed against Goku during the Cell Games but was putting in a lot of effort in the fight regardless in order to test himself against a worthy opponent.

But why even do this? The whole point of their match is to test Gohans power. Supressing himself defeats the point of this.