Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Jmass97]

I’ve just read the whole chapter, and I must say, Moro didn’t look that impressive. At all...! He was very clearly struggling and on the losing end to Ultra Instinct “OMEN” Goku throughout the far end majority of the fight. And only gained the upper hand near the end after he powered up to (what I suppose) is his full power. This doesn’t mean he won’t get stronger in the future though. He might pull another Namek Moro, and eat the whole planet with everyone on it and become vastly more powerful after that. But in today’s manga chapter, he was very clearly struggling with and on the losing end to UI Omen Goku throughout the majority of the fight.

I really believed Moro would totally own UIO Goku... This isn’t even full UI yet guys, lets not forget that.

To be fair, Moro wasn’t taking the fight very seriously and he’s also fighting a UI Omen Goku who is definitely stronger than the UI Omen Goku from the tournament of power due to Goku’s increases in power after the tournament of power and the events of Broly and getting beaten by Moro twice before AND training with Merus for 6 months in the chamber. We see Moro power up and it’s even said in the translations that Moro’s power surpasses that of the Gods. So I actually believe he looks really impressive, being able to fight against a more powerful UI omen Goku while holding back is no small feat. This is all after he demonstrated his power through the use of Soganbo as well.

Oh you are absolutely right that this UI Omen Goku is VASTLY superior to the one from the ToP. For all the examples you’ve mentioned. But it’s still not the state’s full power, and Moro is already losing nearly. This UI Omen Goku is definitely far superior to the MUI (silver haired version) from the ToP, no doubt about that. But still, it’s a weaker, incomplete, imperfect state that is already giving Moro trouble. That’s the point I’m trying to make.

Oh I see, well you are correct lol. But who knows maybe Moro’s full power will trash Goku Next chapter or maybe he’s not even using his true full power yet. For all we know he (hopefully) will show us some more magic abilities and then once this happens maybe Vegeta will finally show up. I’m too excited because there are so many ways they can make this pan out.

[GodVegetto91]

To be fair, Moro wasn’t taking the fight very seriously and he’s also fighting a UI Omen Goku who is definitely stronger than the UI Omen Goku from the tournament of power due to Goku’s increases in power after the tournament of power and the events of Broly and getting beaten by Moro twice before AND training with Merus for 6 months in the chamber. We see Moro power up and it’s even said in the translations that Moro’s power surpasses that of the Gods. So I actually believe he looks really impressive, being able to fight against a more powerful UI omen Goku while holding back is no small feat. This is all after he demonstrated his power through the use of Soganbo as well.

Oh you are absolutely right that this UI Omen Goku is VASTLY superior to the one from the ToP. For all the examples you’ve mentioned. But it’s still not the state’s full power, and Moro is already losing nearly. This UI Omen Goku is definitely far superior to the MUI (silver haired version) from the ToP, no doubt about that. But still, it’s a weaker, incomplete, imperfect state that is already giving Moro trouble. That’s the point I’m trying to make.

Oh I see, well you are correct lol. But who knows maybe Moro’s full power will trash Goku Next chapter or maybe he’s not even using his true full power yet. For all we know he (hopefully) will show us some more magic abilities and then once this happens maybe Vegeta will finally show up. I’m too excited because there are so many ways they can make this pan out.

I really do hope you’re right in all of that! Maybe he just “powered up”, but that it isn’t neccesarily his full power, or he starts dominating UIO Goku in the next chapter like you said.

[Hugo Boss]

This UI Omen Goku is definitely far superior to the MUI (silver haired version) from the ToP, no doubt about that.

Is this something you think or something that was actually told in the chapter?

[GodVegetto91]

This UI Omen Goku is definitely far superior to the MUI (silver haired version) from the ToP, no doubt about that.

Is this something you think or something that was actually told in the chapter?

It’s common sense.

Since then, Goku trained, fought against Broly, trained again, fought against (and lost) to Moro (twice). Trained himself to the point of near death over and over again with an Angel in a time chamber for 6 months straight. And now has gained Ultra Instinct Omen at will.

[Hugo Boss]

This UI Omen Goku is definitely far superior to the MUI (silver haired version) from the ToP, no doubt about that.

Is this something you think or something that was actually told in the chapter?

It’s common sense.

Since then, Goku trained, fought against Broly, trained again, fought against (and lost) to Moro (twice). Trained himself to the point of near death over and over again with an Angel in a time chamber for 6 months straight. And now has gained Ultra Instinct Omen at will.

All that we can infer by the end of chapter 58. I’m only missing the part where it says it’s stronger than the completed form against Jiren, because I honestly don’t understand your certainty.

[Jmass97]

Is this something you think or something that was actually told in the chapter?

It’s common sense.

Since then, Goku trained, fought against Broly, trained again, fought against (and lost) to Moro (twice). Trained himself to the point of near death over and over again with an Angel in a time chamber for 6 months straight. And now has gained Ultra Instinct Omen at will.

All that we can infer by the end of chapter 58. I’m only missing the part where it says it’s stronger than the completed form against Jiren, because I honestly don’t understand your certainty.

We’ll have to wait until next chapter. If Goku can at least hold his own for a short while against a powered up Moro who has transcended the Gods then that would at least put current UI Omen as relative to MUI from the TOP.

[Hugo Boss]

We’ll have to wait until next chapter. If Goku can at least hold his own for a short while against a powered up Moro who has transcended the Gods then that would at least put current UI Omen as relative to MUI from the TOP.

Really? Because in this very chapter Piccolo says it’s hard to tell if Goku is stronger than ever, even with he going all out. Moro also makes a subjetive claim, and even assuming he is right, Jiren also has power that transcends a god and True Ultra Instinct can dance around him quite easily.

[Triggered Vegeta]

We’ll have to wait until next chapter. If Goku can at least hold his own for a short while against a powered up Moro who has transcended the Gods then that would at least put current UI Omen as relative to MUI from the TOP.

Really? Because in this very chapter Piccolo says it’s hard to tell if Goku is stronger than ever, even with he going all out. Moro also makes a subjetive claim, and even assuming he is right, Jiren also has power that transcends a god and True Ultra Instinct can dance around him quite easily.

It's hard to tell because he's unable to sense UI Goku's ki... So he can't make an accurate comparison.

[Jmass97]

We’ll have to wait until next chapter. If Goku can at least hold his own for a short while against a powered up Moro who has transcended the Gods then that would at least put current UI Omen as relative to MUI from the TOP.

Really? Because in this very chapter Piccolo says it’s hard to tell if Goku is stronger than ever, even with he going all out. Moro also makes a subjetive claim, and even assuming he is right, Jiren also has power that transcends a god and True Ultra Instinct can dance around him quite easily.

What does Piccolo’s ability to sense Goku have to do with what you and I are visually reading in the real world and what dialogue may come about in the next chapter? Also how do you know Moro’s claim is subjective? That’s headcanon and as it goes, I’ll take what the character says (who was written by the author himself) over someone who just doesn’t want to believe it. We’ve had 2 god of destruction tier antagonists before Moro so why should I doubt that Moro is on a similar level if not higher? You also proved my point to an extent. If Masted UI Goku fought a good fight with Jiren (Jiren even beat Goku in the manga in case you forgot) and a current UI Omen Goku fights a good fight with a full power Moro who is Similar in power if not stronger than Jiren wouldn’t that logically put current UI Omen Goku at a similar level to the previous Mastered UI? You’re kinda confusing me here to be honest. I don’t think UI Omen will do great against full power Moro btw, I’m just saying if he did then that comparison is a no-brainer.

[Hugo Boss]

It's hard to tell because he's unable to sense UI Goku's ki... So he can't make an accurate comparison.

I didn’t forget it. It’s just that reading Goku’s ki is not the only way to tell if Goku is stronger. Piccolo can read Jiren’s and Moro’s ki, so he could tell by comparing how Goku fought each one. Though reading Goku’s ki would give him an easier assessment, he has his memory. He was the one that stated Super Saiyan Blue got stronger after all.

What does Piccolo’s ability to sense Goku have to do with what you and I are visually reading in the real world and what dialogue may come about in the next chapter? Also how do you know Moro’s claim is subjective? That’s headcanon and as it goes, I’ll take what the character says (who was written by the author himself) over someone who just doesn’t want to believe it. We’ve had 2 god of destruction tier antagonists before Moro so why should I doubt that Moro is on a similar level if not higher? You also proved my point to an extent. If Masted UI Goku fought a good fight with Jiren (Jiren even beat Goku in the manga in case you forgot) and a current UI Omen Goku fights a good fight with a full power Moro who is Similar in power if not stronger than Jiren wouldn’t that logically put current UI Omen Goku at a similar level to the previous Mastered UI? You’re kinda confusing me here to be honest. I don’t think UI Omen will do great against full power Moro btw, I’m just saying if he did then that comparison is a no-brainer.

The point is that none observing the fight could tell if Goku is stronger than ever, since as they can’t read his ki, they would only have the data from the fight against Jiren to compare to this one. Remember that despite not being able to read Goku’s ki, Piccolo could tell in the previous chapter that Super Saiyan Blue got stronger. And now he couldn’t tell the same thing about Ultra Instinct.

And I didn’t say I don’t believe Moro. It’s just that this line reminded me of Majin Boo when he said Goku and Vegeta couldn’t beat him even fused and he was proven wrong that time, but for the purpose of this discussion I shall consider it valid, right?

So, we have these 2 guys that are stronger than a god, Jiren and Moro. Let’s say they are on equal footing. Moro deliberately dragged the fight because he doesn’t think he can beat Goku at full power. By the way, Goku was beaten by Ultra Instinct in his fight against Jiren in case you have forgotten. It was only after the form began to take its toll that Jiren managed to even things out and only after Goku ran out of gas Jiren turned the tables. Before that happened, Goku was comfortably dominating that fight, which he isn’t doing in this one.

[Jmass97]

It's hard to tell because he's unable to sense UI Goku's ki... So he can't make an accurate comparison.

I didn’t forget it. It’s just that reading Goku’s ki is not the only way to tell if Goku is stronger. Piccolo can read Jiren’s and Moro’s ki, so he could tell by comparing how Goku fought each one. Though reading Goku’s ki would give him an easier assessment, he has his memory. He was the one that stated Super Saiyan Blue got stronger after all.

What does Piccolo’s ability to sense Goku have to do with what you and I are visually reading in the real world and what dialogue may come about in the next chapter? Also how do you know Moro’s claim is subjective? That’s headcanon and as it goes, I’ll take what the character says (who was written by the author himself) over someone who just doesn’t want to believe it. We’ve had 2 god of destruction tier antagonists before Moro so why should I doubt that Moro is on a similar level if not higher? You also proved my point to an extent. If Masted UI Goku fought a good fight with Jiren (Jiren even beat Goku in the manga in case you forgot) and a current UI Omen Goku fights a good fight with a full power Moro who is Similar in power if not stronger than Jiren wouldn’t that logically put current UI Omen Goku at a similar level to the previous Mastered UI? You’re kinda confusing me here to be honest. I don’t think UI Omen will do great against full power Moro btw, I’m just saying if he did then that comparison is a no-brainer.

The point is that none observing the fight could tell if Goku is stronger than ever, since as they can’t read his ki, they would only have the data from the fight against Jiren to compare to this one. Remember that despite not being able to read Goku’s ki, Piccolo could tell in the previous chapter that Super Saiyan Blue got stronger. And now he couldn’t tell the same thing about Ultra Instinct.

And I didn’t say I don’t believe Moro. It’s just that this line reminded me of Majin Boo when he said Goku and Vegeta couldn’t beat him even fused and he was proven wrong that time, but for the purpose of this discussion I shall consider it valid, right?

So, we have these 2 guys that are stronger than a god, Jiren and Moro. Let’s say they are on equal footing. Moro deliberately dragged the fight because he doesn’t think he can beat Goku at full power. By the way, Goku was beaten by Ultra Instinct in his fight against Jiren in case you have forgotten. It was only after the form began to take its toll that Jiren managed to even things out and only after Goku ran out of gas Jiren turned the tables. Before that happened, Goku was comfortably dominating that fight, which he isn’t doing in this one.

Okay I understand your point...but my point still stands that we won’t know the full extent of Goku’s current strength until next chapter that was my point of my original post. So I’m not saying that him being stronger than TOP MUI is true but I am saying that it’s very likely that he’s at least approaching that realm of strength. Nothing proves it yet but nothing has disproven it either.

[Thani]

Let's not forget that Goku postulated that "But still... If you were just stalling for time, that means you don't think you can beat me when I'm at full power, huh?", with Moro's response being a surprised silence. As seen below:

Spoiler:

So, for NOW, we can assume that UIO Goku can eventually defeat Moro the way he is, if he can just manage to last long enough to do so.

Which, to me, means he's not on Jiren's level quite yet, who straight up defeated UI Goku. I like that. Moro's whole gimmick is to empower himself and defeat his enemies by combining his raw power with his cunning and spells. It shouldn't be suddenly different now.

I think you meant “fight back”, which he only does in the definitive stage of Ultra Instinct. But that happened after Jiren released his full strength. It’s (kinda) implied Jiren would be able to do something if Goku didn’t go the full process, no? Just to be consistent with what happens in the anime.

To be fair, Jiren did do something. He straight up bested/outlasted Goku after he completed Ultra Instinct. He took a massive toll, yes, but he won that specific fight. So I would assume he would manage the same against "just" Omen.

[Hugo Boss]

To be fair, Jiren did do something. He straight up bested/outlasted Goku after he completed Ultra Instinct. He took a massive toll, yes, but he won that specific fight. So I would assume he would manage the same against "just" Omen.

You are right, but by “doing something”, I meant straight overwhelming the “sign” level instead of outlasting it.

Though, currently I lean towards the notion that Moro, Jiren and Goku could be on a similar level, considering everything that was told in this chapter (Moro saying his power surpass the gods, Goku saying his very best can beat Moro) and in the one in which Toppo defeated Goku (Jiren’s battle power being greater than Vermoud’s).

[Thani]

As of now, I'm not certain. Moro could be boasting, after all, but we'll see in later chapters (although him being able to fight UIO Goku like that is a veeeeery compelling argument). I'm personally of the opinion that manga!Goku could now very well defeat Jiren in his completed UI state, but I wonder how "Omen" would fare.

[Nevaeh]

As of now, I'm not certain. Moro could be boasting, after all, but we'll see in later chapters (although him being able to fight UIO Goku like that is a veeeeery compelling argument). I'm personally of the opinion that manga!Goku could now very well defeat Jiren in his completed UI state, but I wonder how "Omen" would fare.

Going off Piccolo's statement current Omen loses and maybe even current UI lol

[Thani]

I dunno, Piccolo just said it's hard to tell. But after all that training, he MUST have gotten stronger. Heck, his blue form was stated to be "way stronger than last time I saw it".

[TheSaiyanGod]

Let's not forget that Goku postulated that "But still... If you were just stalling for time, that means you don't think you can beat me when I'm at full power, huh?", with Moro's response being a surprised silence. As seen below:

Spoiler:

So, for NOW, we can assume that UIO Goku can eventually defeat Moro the way he is, if he can just manage to last long enough to do so.

Which, to me, means he's not on Jiren's level quite yet, who straight up defeated UI Goku. I like that. Moro's whole gimmick is to empower himself and defeat his enemies by combining his raw power with his cunning and spells. It shouldn't be suddenly different now.

I think you meant “fight back”, which he only does in the definitive stage of Ultra Instinct. But that happened after Jiren released his full strength. It’s (kinda) implied Jiren would be able to do something if Goku didn’t go the full process, no? Just to be consistent with what happens in the anime.

To be fair, Jiren did do something. He straight up bested/outlasted Goku after he completed Ultra Instinct. He took a massive toll, yes, but he won that specific fight. So I would assume he would manage the same against "just" Omen.

That's just what Goku thinks anyway. Moro himself is excited after seeing that Goku still has more power left.

And in the manga Jiren does not defeat MUI Goku, Goku is unable to maintain that form and he returns to normal.
A good comparison is the fact that Jiren's punch is not even able to disturb UIO Goku during the ToP, while a suppressed Moro punch made Goku feel pain. Not to mention the fact that current UIO Goku is massively stronger than during the tournament.

So I would say that Moro must be at a level close to Jiren's level (at least at Jiren's level before facing MUI Goku)

[Miracles]

This isn't even up for debate. Moro's normal state is already at a suppressed UI omen level.
Not to mention a much stronger Goku than the one Jiren fought two arcs ago at that.

[Sadala Elite]

Dude you're flipping things to fit your own narrative no matter what. I'm taking things more literal

You're the one saying that Freeza is the only character in the series that doesn't lose power when he is injured but stamina (even when he loses all his power after he is cut by the kienzan to the point he can't even fly).
I mean, that alone should already be a red flag to your theory.

And nope, you're taking things out of context, which is different. I mean, my 100% meaning going all out and not having your power 100% restored is an equally literal interpretation of what Goku says in Namek.
We're both 100% respecting the meaning of the sentence, but you take it as if Goky spoke in absolute, omniscient terms while I take it as if he spoke from their POW as a character of the fiction.

but surely you must understand that that once you assume character is lying every other time they say something that doesn't fit your narrative it can't fit. Same with the Mecha Freeza line, he's lying to himself and his father for what reason?

Was Vegeta lying when he thought he could defeat Freeza? No, he wasn't lying, he was simply WRONG because he still hadn't tested his powers.
Being wrong and lying are very different things.
Freeza had no reason to lie to himself but we know he never trained so he never tested his mecha form's power before going to the earth (he didn't fight with his father, nor anything).
Freeza felt recovered (in Namek he managed to match SSJ Goku while weakened) and from the fact that he was already going at his maximum strength in his final form we also know that he had no stamina problems.

But his claims are contradicted, not just by other character's statements but also by facts:
1. Gohan senses his ki, says it's much lower than in Namek and assumes that Freeza is going supressed. But then, when Freeza fights Trunks he doesn't power up despite Trunks letting him time to do so meaning that Freeza had always been at max power (the mecha implants allowed him to do this).
The fact being stated here is that Mecha's Ki is lower, him being supressed is just Gohan's assumption because the Freeza he knew in Namek was constantly supressing his Ki.

2. He badly loses to SSJ Trunks that had the same power of SSJ Goku. Freeza in Namek was able to follow SSJ Goku's movements and fight at his same level for a few minutes. Mecha Freeza can't follow Trunks movements at all and is killed in a single blow despite being one of the most sturdy characters in the series in comparison to the PL he had.

3. His performance in the fight (the speed at dodging Trunk's attack) is the same as his father while transformed. We know that Namek Freeza was above his father for how they speak (Freeza constantly reminding everyone that HE is number 1 in the universe and his father accepting it, saying that the number 1 of the universe has to be from his family), and now Mecha Freeza barely manages to fight at his father's level.

I mean, Toriyama goes the extra mile to make very clear that Mecha and his father were wrong:
SSJ Trunks could've simply been much stronger than SSJ Namek Goku and call it a day and Goku could again surpass Trunks in the 3 year training that would follow.
But instead Gohan said Trunk's power was like his father's in Namek, Goku also says that he hasn't had time to increase his power in Yadrat and in the showdown with Trunks they're both at the same level (in fact, Goku's finger technique even makes him seem superior).

Surely Freeza knows he's stronger, like how you're arguing that he knew he was weaker before, and that line allows us to know he's now stronger thus providing information about Freezas current state as compared to what he was previously.

He FELT stronger, which is different than being stronger.

Look, the zenkays and the injuries worked in the exact same way:
When Vegeta came back from a zenkay he knew his powers had increased but didn't knew how much until he tried.
When Freeza was injured he knew he had weakened but couldn't know how much weakened he was because he had nothing to compare him to (was SSJ Goku much stronger or was he much weaker than before? He couldn't know -Goku neither, by the way-).

The only difference with Mecha is that with Mecha Freeza makes a wrong assumption (that he is totally recovered) that he doesn't bother to check.
I mean, he lost in Namek because of the stamina so he checked his stamina and saw it had improved a lot thanks to the Mecha implants and headed directly to earth with his father. And how do I know that? Becasue Freeza was at his max when he reached the earth.
And how do I know that he didn't train to see how strong he was? Because both him and his father are very wrong and get killed because of that mistake.

And unlike the thing we were arguing about before, there's no contradicting statements from.other characters with this one.

Besides Gohan sensing mecha's power and stating it was much lower, you have FACTS contradicting those statements, which is even more solid proof that they are wrong.
I mean, two statements contradicting each other is a thing, we can argue who was right and who was wrong.
But when hard facts contradict a statement, then the statement is 100% wrong for sure.

Also Trunks didn't give any time for Freeza to do anything..he transformed, Freeza went into shock, and then panic blasts him, thinks he's wiped out and then gets killed by Trunks.

Besides this not being true and Trunks saying that he would let Freeza attack with all his strength, that would be very bad writting.
So, I'm Freeza and I'm much stronger but I'm still terrorized at the fact that Trunks is a SSJ. Ok, because of the panic I fire a ki blast instead of powering up because maybe Trunks was lying when he said that he would wait for me to attack at max strength and the panic made me react in that way... and now I suddenly go from total panic to "heheheh I already killed him in one blast" without even increasing my strength and still using just a fraction of it?

I mean, nope, that's not how you write a character.
On the other hand, that's my take on the scene:
I'm Freeza and I've completely recovered from my injuries and have no more stamina problems. This time my father comes with me so no one will distract me and there won't be cheap shots like before.
But shit, what's this? There are more SSJs? And the other one is going to arrive at any moment!(terror)
Fuck it, I'll dispatch that SSJ before the other one arrives (firing a Ki blast with all my strength that I'm not aware is much lower than before because I'm Freeza and I don't train).
Oh, wow, I've already disintegrated him in one blast?

You don't need a bipolar Freeza that changes from panic to cocky without a reason to explain that scene.

Btw with Ki dropping in regards to Cell its a little different, Cell expanded a lot of Ki in the fight with Goku, to the point wheres he huffing after using that giant barrier. Freeza never strained the way Cell did in that fight.

Freeza stated to be nearly killed and badly injured after the Genkidama, Cell never stated to be badly injured in the fight.
I mean, Raditz was not huffing either and his power had decreased a ton (much more than Freeza in Namek) just because of Gohan's headbutt.

We have to go with what the manga tells, Freeza says he is badly injured and no one says "Freeza has survived the Genkidama unaffected" to contradict him.

Also arrogant characters always make sensing mistakes. They live in denial

Living in denial is one thing and being retarded another one.
Was Vegeta living in denyal when he cried in front of Freeza? Come on, he simply didn't know the extent of his power and challenged Freeza thinking he would surpass him.
Cell lives in denial, but not even he question's Gohan superiority once he has proven superior (and that's why he completely changes his fighting style). Even if he still tried to auto-convince himself tha he was the better fighter, he never denied the hard facts and surely was never cocky while Gohan had the upperhand.

Regards!

There's so much headcanon and nonsense in your post that I don't know where to start.

- Nowhere was Toriyama trying to imply that Mecha Freeza and King Cold where wrong about his new power. (Especially since Toriyama himself in interviews and guides said that Mecha Freeza is stronger than Namek Freeza) That's just your headcanon, especially when they have scouters and other technology to measure Mecha Freeza's new strength. Freeza not powering up when fighting Trunks is simply plot induced stupidity, not evidence of him being at max power. None of your arguments make any logical sense.

- Nowhere was it ever stated or shown that Freeza was massively needed by the Spirit Bomb, especially when he himself as well as King Kai and Goku didnt sense any power decrease, and the simple fact that Freeza was still able to go 100%. SSJ1 being weaker than Kaioken 20x is stupid and contradicts every we see and hear about both forms, however, SSJ1 being 50x fits perfectly.

- Literally everything in the OG manga and Z anime points to the Androids being massively stronger than Z Freeza. No amount of mental gymnastics can say otherwise.

[Sadala Elite]

This isn't even up for debate. Moro's normal state is already at a suppressed UI omen level.
Not to mention a much stronger Goku than the one Jiren fought two arcs ago at that.

True. Moro at his normal state has to be at least on par with Supressed Jiren from the early ToP.