How strong is 17 exactly?

[Peach]

I've heard people say he's weaker than Gohan, but keeps up with his unlimited stamina.

See people say he's just as strong as Super Saiyan Blue.

Some say he's stronger than Super Saiyan Blue because he hurt Jiren.


What's your take. Just how strong is this guy?

[DragonBallFoodie]

Wasn't the Tournament of Power proof that as an android/cyborg he had limitless power and could keep up with the best of its fighters?

The only question on my side is if he's immortal. He may last till the end of the universe.

[Lionel]

Both the manga and anime mediums paint a different picture, albeit both do have in common the gross elevation of his power.

You could argue that in one #17 is comparable to the blue Saiyans while in the other it's more contained with him only being a match for SSJ3. Considering all of what Goku has been been through by the time of that scuffle, it still implies that #17 has improved leaps and bounds over his original strength. The manga itself acknowledges this development later on when the other characters ask about what training he underwent.

[Hugo Boss]

17 and Gohan are about as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku from the recruitment episodes. Goku left them behind after he trained in the gravity chamber with Whis.

[Psajdak]

He is above even the likes of Vikal, and Kakunsa.

[TobyS]

Stronger than SS2 probably, or enough to stress Goku into wanting to end it with SS3.
If not on par with SS3.

Anime wise he's way up on Red god tier as he scraps with a holding back blue. Maybe around blue tier, certainly below kkx20 blue.

[Sadala Elite]

Anime - Definitely SSB level

Manga - Somewhat stronger than SSJ3

[Peach]

Anime - Definitely SSB level

Manga - Somewhat stronger than SSJ3

How strong is Super Saiyan 3 now? Stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan or SSJ3 Gottenks?

[Lionel]

Anime - Definitely SSB level

Manga - Somewhat stronger than SSJ3

How strong is Super Saiyan 3 now? Stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan or SSJ3 Gottenks?

Adding my own thoughts if it's not a problem, some would argue that standard old Super Saiyan had surpassed Kid Buu as early as the beginning of BOG arc thanks to some of the impressions made in the first chapter of the manga. From there the stakes, and by extension the power levels, have only risen.

Super Saiyan 3 by now is probably greater than anything from the Buu arc. You could make an argument for the BOG arc as well.

[Matches Malone]

As strong as the current writer wants him to be. In one arc he's holding his own against the likes of Jiren and destroyer Toppo, in the next he's barely holding on against Moro's henchmen.

[Koitsukai]

In the manga, 17 is seen being on SS3 Goku level and not even being at his full power, and during the ToP his strongest opponent is Dyspo, who after that fight was depleted enough to the point where he couldn't return back to the arena when trying to save Toppo.
Manga Dyspo isn't anime Dyspo, he was too fast for SS2 Goku but when he went blue, he was just a joke. Vs 17, although off-screen like Toyo loves so much, no clear winner was implied and both seemed even. I would venture both 17 and Dyspo range somewhere between ss3 and ssgod with 17 having the edge which could be his infinite stamina The manga didn't care much about giving him a proper fight. Also after the ToP Goku wonders how could he be almost on his level just by park ranging. So, closer to God I'd say.

Anime 17 is seen sparring with blue Goku, defeats Aniraza but can't do a thing vs base Toppo, not even with Gohan's help. He is low ssb tier, he can trade blows with them but when they get serious he is out of his league.

[SSJgogeto]

IMO he is stronger than Blue but weaker than Blue + Kaioken times 20.

[FoolsGil]

He's as strong as the plot needs him to be. More so than Freeza and Master Roshi even.

[Tai Lung]

I've heard people say he's weaker than Gohan, but keeps up with his unlimited stamina.

See people say he's just as strong as Super Saiyan Blue.

Some say he's stronger than Super Saiyan Blue because he hurt Jiren.


What's your take. Just how strong is this guy?

Piccolo hurt frieza off guard
jiren's is not relevant ... jiren was not able to sense his presence
17 = Gohan
like an anime writer said ...

so ...
Gohan = Dyspo = Goku God Red

[Peach]

I've heard people say he's weaker than Gohan, but keeps up with his unlimited stamina.

See people say he's just as strong as Super Saiyan Blue.

Some say he's stronger than Super Saiyan Blue because he hurt Jiren.


What's your take. Just how strong is this guy?

Piccolo hurt frieza off guard
jiren's is not relevant ... jiren was not able to sense his presence
17 = Gohan
like an anime writer said ...

so ...
Gohan = Dyspo = Goku God Red

The second time he hurt Jiren, Jiren wasn't off guard.

I just rewatched some of the final episodes and he blocked a kick meant for SSB Evolution Vegeta too. ...Gohan got knocked out with that kind of power sparring before the tournament.

17 also dealt with Jiren and Top/Toppo much easier than Frieza..

[Tai Lung]

I've heard people say he's weaker than Gohan, but keeps up with his unlimited stamina.

See people say he's just as strong as Super Saiyan Blue.

Some say he's stronger than Super Saiyan Blue because he hurt Jiren.


What's your take. Just how strong is this guy?

Piccolo hurt frieza off guard
jiren's is not relevant ... jiren was not able to sense his presence
17 = Gohan
like an anime writer said ...

so ...
Gohan = Dyspo = Goku God Red

The second time he hurt Jiren, Jiren wasn't off guard.

I just rewatched some of the final episodes and he blocked a kick meant for SSB Evolution Vegeta too. ...Gohan got knocked out with that kind of power sparring before the tournament.

17 also dealt with Jiren and Top/Toppo much easier than Frieza..

jiren and toppo hold back when fighting with 17 so as not to kill him, besides they can't feel his ki
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VuafQTaOYg&t=70s

This is the only time that 17 hurts him
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ffg6uEHSmw&t=9s

the latter should no longer count, jiren no longer had all his power was much weaker
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMufycHukHk

this scene seems clear to me, when gohan stops his attack because he is afraid to kill him
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDUMkhbeebM

[dragonball0900]

Much weaker than SSB tier given he couldn't do anything against Base Toppo, even with Gohan's help. But he should be stronger than SSG.