"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[JulieYBM]

If Beers does become involved I would only like for it under the condition that he not fight but rather by viewing Vegeta defeat Moro he realizes that Vegeta is getting really close to him and he decides to begin training again. This arc has a lot of issues already and the last thing it needs is Vegeta not getting the win.

[LoganForkHands73]

Beerus contributing in some way in the end even if it's not by directly fighting would be fine seeing as he's, ya know, actually been appearing sporadically throughout the arc already.

I wouldn't want Frieza to join in on top of this already bloated roster, though. Frieza's only contribution to this arc so far has been a volume-exclusive side strip that hardly anyone will have read and contributes nothing to the plot other than to assure us nerds that, no, Frieza isn't getting involved. It was a funny little thing, but it's about as relevant as Zamasu exchanging bodies with Monaka that one time. Frieza was integral to both the Universe Survival Saga and the Broly movie, so I think it's time he was given a full rest. As ambivalent as I am towards Moro and as much as I love Frieza, having the Emperor show up to step on the goat's toes would be a bad call. What would Frieza even be able to contribute?

[Grand Marshal 1]

Seeing a GoD training would be something. But the closest we have gotten to that is Champa losing weight. So I don't think that any of the GoDs will ever be shown trying to increase their power, since they already stand at the peak of their universes, just because there are a couple of mortals who rival their strength.

And especially Beerus lol.

Besides that, as said earlier, too many characters. Remember Blueberry? I forgot about him (was that his name?). Remember Saganbo? Whatever he was doing left 0 impact. 7-3 taking the role of the third personal henchman to Moro may as well, not be that remarkable. His influence as a character is ambiguous.

[Miracles]

And what's the deal with Goku? he can go all angry in Omen like it's another form that can be stressed to the max and adds blue-ish to it?

You must of missed where Merus stated that Goku can not keep UI if he uses brute power like that.

I think he means it does not make sense in the first place.
If it's a condition to reach Omen the user may not be stressed, why should one be able to stress it (even if it does not work)?
It doesn't work backwards, he should have lost Omen right away and immediately reverted back to base.

The narrative told us UI couldn't be maintained for long. Moro said Goku reached his limit. It was fading anyway.
So when he powered up, Blue surrounded the UI aura, demonstrating it's limit.

[Matches Malone]

Like it's honestly quite insane how much has been stuffed into this arc. I think we all expected this to be a fairly small-scale arc, not a mini-Endgame for Dragon Ball. Let's do a headcount: Goku, Vegeta, Moro, Majin Buu/Daikaioshin, Esca & Namekians, Jaco, Merus, Whis, Beerus, Piccolo, Gohan, Krillin, Roshi, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Chaozu, the Androids, two sets of Yardrats, a whole army of Prisoners... The Universe Survival arc was bigger in some ways but we knew that going in.

When this started, I thought it'd be a small mini arc to buy time for whatever Toriyama was writing, never did I think it'd be its own main arc with all these pieces being moved around. I thought it'd be over on Namek, but not only is it still going, it looks like there's plenty left. This could easily last until November or December.

[LoganForkHands73]

Like it's honestly quite insane how much has been stuffed into this arc. I think we all expected this to be a fairly small-scale arc, not a mini-Endgame for Dragon Ball. Let's do a headcount: Goku, Vegeta, Moro, Majin Buu/Daikaioshin, Esca & Namekians, Jaco, Merus, Whis, Beerus, Piccolo, Gohan, Krillin, Roshi, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Chaozu, the Androids, two sets of Yardrats, a whole army of Prisoners... The Universe Survival arc was bigger in some ways but we knew that going in.

When this started, I thought it'd be a small mini arc to buy time for whatever Toriyama was writing, never did I think it'd be its own main arc with all these pieces being moved around. I thought it'd be over on Namek, but not only is it still going, it looks like there's plenty left. This could easily last until November or December.

I wouldn't be shocked if the Makaioshin showed their faces at last seeing as Toyo/Tori have already rummaged through the whole kitchen sink Nah but, seriously, this needs to end sooner... I know I'll keep reading but emotionally I've tapped out.

[The Undying]

When it comes to the result of Vegeta's fight, a lot of fans on social media are expecting him to outright kill Moro, but it's worth noting that no final fight in Super ended that easily.

I'm still baffled that so many people expect that, as it's again worth noting that similar conflict resolutions often held true for the original manga: Piccolo Jr. was spared, Raditz required teamwork, Vegeta required teamwork and was spared, Freeza survived Namek, Cell and Boo required teamwork, etc.

If Vegeta kills Moro with a straightforward victory, that would feel a lot less like Toriyama's Dragon Ball and a lot more like Bojack Unbound. I don't ever want to be reminded of Bojack Unbound.

[Matches Malone]

I'm still baffled that so many people expect that, as it's also worth noting that the same often held true for the original manga: Piccolo Jr. was spared, Raditz required teamwork, Vegeta required teamwork and was spared, Freeza survived Namek, Cell and Boo required teamwork, etc.

King Piccolo seems to be the only villain killed in a one on one fight. Everyone else in the original manga and Super either survived or required team work. Vegeta defeating Moro during their fight should be enough to satisfy Vegeta's fans, but it probably won't, as it seems like nothing counts if it's not a direct kill. After all, Vegeta did beat Golden Freeza, yet everyone seems to overlook that. I know he got blown up, but Whis rewinding time technically makes that invalid. It'd be like saying Goku didn't beat Jiren because he couldn't knock him out of the ring.

This needs to end sooner... I know I'll keep reading but emotionally I've tapped out.

I think the last chapter will be in November, while the new arc will be announced at Jump Festa in December and debut that same month.

June and July : Vegeta vs Moro.
August : 7-3 saves Moro and everyone is taken out.
September and October : The Z fighters put together a plan to take both of them out.
November : Aftermath and setup for the next arc.

[Grimlock]

Didn't he like, get asleep again?

He's sleeping again...The Galactic Patrol brought him back to Earth, he's just asleep....very convenient isn't it? Maybe he'll wake up...eventually.

He's sleeping,.

I cannot believe this bullshit. They are still using this utterly idiotic excuse? Damn...

One can only hope Toyotaro will redeem himself by bringing back Majin Buu even if it's in the very last moment.

But now I think to myself "wait, what about this new Angel? Isn't that a big thing?"

Yeah, there's that too. What the hell is this Merus? An angel? Okay, but from which Universe? Are there others like him out there? I do get the feeling this will be yet another case where they simply won't explain anything and we'll just have to roll our eyes.

People just want Vegeta to kill off he main villain because he hasn't had the chance, but I still believe the kill should be a team effort from multiple parties instead of just Goku or Vegeta finishing the fight.

I also want Vegeta to get his major kill but against Moro would be kind of... Dunno. I mean, had this saga taken place before Movie 15, then okay. Vegeta could have his kill on anyone, but since they wasted time bringing back Freeza, then that's where Vegeta should have got this much appreciation. His first major kill being a long-time revenge against someone completely related to him is way more fitting, it would give a much better feeling of "satisfying", if that makes sense. Moro seems "off". There's nothing really connecting these two characters. Majin Buu would be a much better choice for what we saw in the beginning of the saga.

I agree on the multiple parties, by the way.

He's not going to kill him. I think he'll beat him, but his death will be a lot harder than a one on one fight.

That's precisely what happened in Movie 15. I don't think it would be wise to give Vegeta this "almost kill/defeated but not killed" only for something else to happen once again. But hey, if that's enough to make people satisfied...

He killed Namakians, something vegeta said he would get him back for. Apart from that, he's clearly been the focus of the arc through his training and build up. He may not kill him outright, but this is clearly a Vegeta centric arc.

I see. But like I said above, this could happen any time before Movie 15 and it would great. But after that movie it does feel unnatural. Vegeta couldn't get this revenge/kill on Freeza but he gets to kill this bearded goat... I mean, alright then. What can we do but accept it?

[Matches Malone]

I don't think it would be wise to give Vegeta this "almost kill/defeated but not killed" only for something else to happen once again.

Vegeta couldn't get this revenge/kill on Freeza but he gets to kill this bearded goat... I mean, alright then.

There are 16 arcs between the original manga and Super, with this being the 17th, out of those 16, only twice was the villain killed in one on one combat. King Piccolo was the first, and he was killed by Goku, and the second was Cell who was killed by Gohan, and even that may not count because Vegeta distracted him. In every other battle, the antagonist either walked away, or was killed in a team effort. Why is this supposed to be different ? Vegeta defeating Moro but needing help to deliver the finishing blow is more or less what's happened in every DB story written by Toriyama.

Personally speaking, I'll be more than happy if he just beats Moro, as winning a good fight is more important to me than getting a kill. I consider what he did to Freeza a satisfying revenge, he may not have outright killed him, but he beat his face in and forced him to the ground admitting defeat. Maybe I'm just easily satisfied, but I'm surprised more fans don't talk about that when bringing up Vegeta's wins. He also beat Black and Toppo, both very strong antagonists. When fans say Moro will be Vegeta's first major victory, I look at it as his 4th. Goku may have been the one to throw the spirit bomb at Kid Buu, but the entire plan was Vegeta's, so doesn't that count as something ? it may not have been a physical win, but it was definitely a strategic one. Vegeta was also the only one able to land a hit on Beerus without SsjG, so there's that as well. He also beat everyone when he first went to earth, including Goku. Taking all that into account, Moro might be Vegeta's 5th or even 6th major win.

[Noitsnothim]

Off topic but V-Jump has revealed some info on new forms that were shown off in the T.O.P

Goku digging deep into his reserves is actually him using Kaioken (Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken's actual debut in the manga is right here)

This right here to no one's surprise (I hope) is Super Saiyan Blue Evolution but in V-Jump & The manga of Super I assume it goes by a different name It's actually called 'Evolution of Blue'

[Matches Malone]

Off topic but V-Jump has revealed some info on new forms that were shown off in the T.O.P

Goku digging deep into his reserves is actually him using Kaioken (Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken's actual debut in the manga is right here)

This right here to no one's surprise is Super Saiyan Blue Evolution but in V-Jump & The manga of Super I assume it goes by a different name It's actually called 'Evolution of Blue'

Very interesting. I always thought that Goku was just powering up, I never believed Toyotaro brought the Kaioken into the manga. I wonder why it took so long for it to be confirmed. At least now we know these forms will be part of Super 2.0 whenever it's made, as some thought they'd be dropped based on them not being part of Broly.

[emperior]

It was always obvious that Goku was using Kaioken, wasn’t it? That aura is the same as Kaioken’s and nothing like Super Saiyan Blue’s. And after Tenshinan said it was “the same principle as Kaioken” (likely he was taught something of it from King Kai, as he never witnessed the technique first hand) Krillin said “the Kaioken, after all this time?” thus confirming that Goku was indeed using it.

[Miracles]

Off topic but V-Jump has revealed some info on new forms that were shown off in the T.O.P

Goku digging deep into his reserves is actually him using Kaioken (Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken's actual debut in the manga is right here)

This right here to no one's surprise (I hope) is Super Saiyan Blue Evolution but in V-Jump & The manga of Super I assume it goes by a different name It's actually called 'Evolution of Blue'

Got an actual source for this?

[Noitsnothim]

Off topic but V-Jump has revealed some info on new forms that were shown off in the T.O.P

Goku digging deep into his reserves is actually him using Kaioken (Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken's actual debut in the manga is right here)

This right here to no one's surprise (I hope) is Super Saiyan Blue Evolution but in V-Jump & The manga of Super I assume it goes by a different name It's actually called 'Evolution of Blue'

Got an actual source for this?

https://twitter.com/JaredHendrix6/statu ... 3085258752
that's for Blue Kaioken
https://twitter.com/peraperayume/status ... 8649969664
that's for Evolution of Blue

[Miracles]

Off topic but V-Jump has revealed some info on new forms that were shown off in the T.O.P

Goku digging deep into his reserves is actually him using Kaioken (Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken's actual debut in the manga is right here)

This right here to no one's surprise (I hope) is Super Saiyan Blue Evolution but in V-Jump & The manga of Super I assume it goes by a different name It's actually called 'Evolution of Blue'

Got an actual source for this?

https://twitter.com/JaredHendrix6/statu ... 3085258752
that's for Blue Kaioken
https://twitter.com/peraperayume/status ... 8649969664
that's for Evolution of Blue

I appreciate it.

[GodVegetto91]

You must of missed where Merus stated that Goku can not keep UI if he uses brute power like that.

I think he means it does not make sense in the first place.
If it's a condition to reach Omen the user may not be stressed, why should one be able to stress it (even if it does not work)?
It doesn't work backwards, he should have lost Omen right away and immediately reverted back to base.

The narrative told us UI couldn't be maintained for long. Moro said Goku reached his limit. It was fading anyway.
So when he powered up, Blue surrounded the UI aura, demonstrating it's limit.

I think it’s more because he started to rely more on pure physical strength alone, which is in direct contradiction with his UI state, thus deluding it. It was his own bad choice, because he started getting desperate with Moro’s amazing power.
Even Merus hinted at this a second later.

[GodVegetto91]

This is the same line Imperfect Cell used against Piccolo and 17!



“While you guys were... I got carried away and became too powerful.”

Moro and Imperfect Cell, 2 characters who share MANY similarities. Especially the energy absorption one.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Off topic but V-Jump has revealed some info on new forms that were shown off in the T.O.P

Goku digging deep into his reserves is actually him using Kaioken (Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken's actual debut in the manga is right here)

This right here to no one's surprise (I hope) is Super Saiyan Blue Evolution but in V-Jump & The manga of Super I assume it goes by a different name It's actually called 'Evolution of Blue'

Now I just feel dum tbh.

I didn't try to overcomplicats things, but the freaking Manga has not be clear with the Blue forms.

It all started with Goku using Perfected Blue against Zamasu, which we initially thought was the Manga's Kaio Ken (because it could multiply blue's strength, given that it was in a weakened state).

But it has always been full potential blue.

Then fast forward to the ToP and everyone says that it looks like the KK. But it's on top this Perfected Blue. And there is no double aura (Toei did this one right tbh). So knowing that Power stressing is similar to the KK I could only assume that this was a 'Grade 2 Blue'.

Manga's Evolution also seemed different. No muscle gain, no visible pupils, different aura (probably the same color as normal blue) and again on top of this 'perfected' blue.

I get that these forms were the Manga's counterparts, but the Manga did an awful job presenting them for me. So much so that I considered them entirely different forms....

[Xeno Goku Black]

Moro and Imperfect Cell, 2 characters who share MANY similarities. Especially the energy absorption one.

Yeah that's called being uncreative.

The entire character is just bits and pieces of other antagonists. He has nothing unique for himself.