Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

When did G.Freeza ever smack up Dsypo? Show some clips. Meanwhile, Hit actually did smack up Dsypo even before Goku stepped in lol.:


Dsypo only went Hyper Speed mode once Gohan jumped in.

Jiren never glared Hit away at all like he did to Goku, he threw several punches at him and kept going.

You really need to watch the show again. Jiren glared at Hit and he was done then got sent into the stands by the finishing move.
Goku took the glare and the "it's over" finishing move and still had more than enough power to use Genki with BlueKKX20 in the struggle and had power to fight even the genki afterwards.
Gohan came in when Hyper Speed mode Dyspo had the advantage against Freeza. Freeza forced Dyspo to use Hyper speed mode since he was stronger and faster than the Dyspo that was beating up Hit.

Also, that image of Hit doing that to Dyspo is because Goku came. You got the narration all wrong.

You keep repeating easily debunked BS and refuse to accept reality.

Jiren took out Hit was a massive energy blast (same as the one that knocked out Berserk Kale and SSB Vegeta), not a glare. And Hit actually managed to trade Hits with Jiren, unlike SSBKK Goku in 109.

Dyspo's Hyper Speed mode only came out after Gohan jumped in, and Freeza is not faster than Dsypo (that's partly why Gohan needed to jump in).

Wow, Golden Freeza was faster than base Dyspo. This was stated. That's why Dyspo went hyper speed mode then he became faster again.

Hit was still defeated with less. He didn't even put up half the fight Goku did.

Seriously, watch the story again.

[Koitsukai]

So I'm guessing this is just for the manga while anime Beerus exceeds anime Vegito?

Yes, the quote refers to the manga version, the anime never attempted any comparison between Beerus and Vegito.
But the anime does present stronger characters, so if in the manga the fusion can be compared to Beerus, then at the very least so should the anime, I guess? Specially when manga Beerus > anime Beerus.

Though It should be noted that Vegito was only compared when charging the FKHH, an attack we know can more than double the user's power, and was not compared when trashing Zamasu. So a case could be made saying Vegito could only match Beerus with his strongest attack and not really on a one-on-one. That V-Jump quote says he has the power to rival Beerus, not that he can beat him.

[ZombieVito]

This does not back up any of the things you think it does.

Goku & Vegeta getting stronger throughout the ToP besides the new forms was outright stated and shown in the show itself (Vegeta's Pride Boost against GoD Toppo is the most obvious example). No amount of headcanon can deny this.

Second, if Black arc Vegito = Beerus, then current SSB Gogeta IS several times better than Beerus by scaling. Afterall, Broly was outright compared to Beerus in the movie & SSB Gogeta casually beat him down.

Third, your claims assume that Broly film Gogeta = Black arc Vegito, which is false and makes no sense.

Nope. Not a single line in the ToP confirms they got stronger outside of their UI and Evolution forms.

I never said Vegetto = Beerus or FT Vegetto = Broly Gogeta.

Also Gogeta is never implied to be several times stronger than Broly. He would have one shotted him otherwise.

[Miracles]

Broly was indeed on Blue Gogeta's level. Look how much it took for him to be defeated.
Also, Broly could follow Blue Gogeta.

In DB, you have to be on par in order for these to be established.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Broly was indeed on Blue Gogeta's level. Look how much it took for him to be defeated.
Also, Broly could follow Blue Gogeta.

In DB, you have to be on par in order for these to be established.

I'm pretty sure that Gogeta Blue was several times stronger than Broly. BUT only Blue Gogeta could get the job done. God Gogeta would be an even match for Broly. This is without my headcanon. With my headcanon

FPSS Broly = 30×Blue ≈ God Gogeta
Blue Gogeta = 150× Blue ≈5×God Gogeta or FPSS Broly

It's pretty much like Omega Shenron and SS4 Gogeta. SS3 Gogeta wouldn't get the job done, but the gap between said form and the next is big enough to be a stomp.

Also durability plays a huge factor.

The show has a different scaling. You didn't see Golden Freeza smack up Dyspo? Forcing him to go "hyper speed" mode?
You didn't see where Goku ENDURED more than Hit and lasted longer where Hit was done after ONE eye glare?
Hit never touched Jiren either, only with his time cage and it failed miserably.
You can watch Super for yourself, the show matches with what I'm saying.

When did G.Freeza ever smack up Dsypo? Show some clips. Meanwhile, Hit actually did smack up Dsypo even before Goku stepped in lol.:


Dsypo only went Hyper Speed mode once Gohan jumped in.

Jiren never glared Hit away at all like he did to Goku, he threw several punches at him and kept going.

You really need to watch the show again. Jiren glared at Hit and he was done. Then got sent into the stands by the finishing move.
Goku took Jiren's glare and the "it's over" finishing move and still had more than enough power to use Genki with BlueKKX20 in the struggle. Even had power to struggle with the Genki afterwards. Hit doesn't compare.
Gohan came in when Hyper Speed mode Dyspo had the advantage against Freeza. Freeza forced Dyspo to use Hyper speed mode since he was stronger and faster than the Dyspo that was beating up Hit.

Also, that image of Hit doing that to Dyspo is after Goku appeared. You got the narration all wrong.

Here, it's not that I disagree entirely, but there is a problem. We take into account how much time Hit and Goku survived against Jiren for what reason exactly?

Hit was never a brawler fighter. His durability has to be low. Freeza is a durable mf. But, Hit was able to easily overcome Dyspo after adapting to him. Freeza tanked the strikes but Hit never let Dyspo strike a vital spot either. Note how Dyspo only used his max speed in base only ONCE against Final Freeza.

Freeza goes Golden. His raw strength should be superior to Hit, his speed as well. I never denied this. Let's see. Naturally, he forces Dyspo to Ultra Light Speed Mode. His top speed. Freeza is actually being pushed back. And Dyspo has the advantage for the most part, if not for the whole fight.

Why does this matter? Once Hit figured out Dyspo he could trick him into Time Skips. At that point, Hit was the perfect counter for Dyspo, who used several times his top speed against him. Now, you may claim that he didn't force him into Light Speed Mode. You are correct. But since the episodes were months apart I can see the form not being in concept yet.

Then we must take into account that Hit also has 2 more super techniques that were not used against Dyspo. His parallel dimension and the Time Cage.

With the parallel dimension, even if Dyspo was at his best, Hit would utilize his clones to distract him and use an effective Time Skip against him. Catching him off guard with a Time Cage is game over. Only pure strength can break you free. Not speed. And definitely not Blue tier strength like Freeza's or Dyspo's.

We never saw what would happen if Gohan didn't come for the save, but I'm sure that Freeza, even by exploiting that moment, would still be at a disadvantage.

Gohan shrugged off Dyspo's attack as well. So that goes to tell that Gohan is reaching that Blue tier of strength. Albeit he would never win against True Golden Freeza. So about Dyspo, it's more that he strikes at a high speed, rather than the fact that he is strong. And that's why Gohan was keeping up with him in Freeza's death ray cage.

Back to an original point I made. You compared Goku shrugging off Jiren's attack while Hit didn't for what reason? We know that a KK×20 Blue Goku is faster and more durable than Hit will ever be. What should be in question is the effort Jiren put in both fights. With Goku he was moving around, due to the reason I stated above. Hit went for a different approach and even then Jiren rushed at him and screamed at times. And mind me, this is the same Jiren. Hit tanking punches that made Goku vomit is more impressive. And when Hit used the time cage, Jiren used a lot of effort to burst out. The Spirit Bomb may be a superior feat (although it may as well be of the same scale) but pushing it back is different than trying to break free of frozen time. A time within another dimension, since there is no time in the world of void.

So for a scale with the fighters:

Jiren ep 111-110 > Hit Time Cage ≈ Spirit Bomb > Blue KK×20 Blue > Hit > Freeza (serious vs Dyspo, unseen) ≈ Goku Blue (end of Top) > Dyspo >= Freeza (underestimating Dyspo) >= Blue Goku > Ultimate Gohan

This accounts for technique. Not just raw strength. With strategy Hit can defeat these guys behind him. Freeza tries to flex his superior strength, but Dyspo made a fool out of him. So I may say that Dyspo could have pushed Freeza off bounds, since he was underestimating Dyspo.

As for the Blue Goku = TGolden Freeza statement, it's not valid anymore since we are in the tournament rn. This Freeza compared in end of ToP Freeza. While the Blue Goku is the Goku of that time who used the KK.

But I will add end of ToP Goku just for a reference.

[Grand Marshal 1]

So I'm guessing this is just for the manga while anime Beerus exceeds anime Vegito?

But it mentions anime forms too?

In any case, Vegetto getting confirmed to rival Beerus sure is interesting. I always said Goku and Vegeta never got stronger in base during the ToP and they just got new more powerful forms to keep up. This new confirmation backs this up since Goku and Vegeta can't get dozens of times stronger after the Zamasu arc since that would make Gogeta several times stronger than Beerus if Vegetto rivals him.

Nappa said that the Saibaimen rivaled Raditz and the former are 80% of the latter so this is why I always had Vegetto at around 80% of Beerus.

Well let me through my piece of the argument into this lol

Another good example of characters getting stronger in the ToP. The Kefla fight! As a Super Saiyan (her own weird state that may not function as the normal SS) she was compared to the Spirit Bomb in power. This led us to assume that she could probably take on 1st Omen Goku with ease. But here we got Blue Goku, challenging her. What I mean by that?

Trading blows and energy attacks for 2 whole minutes straight! If that's not a roughly equal fight then what is? Only when she charges an attack does Goku use the KK. But, here's the catch.

SS Kefla=Spirit Bomb

Wouldnt that make Goku use 20 times KK right off the bat against her, when his power at that stage was the only thing comparable to his attack?

But we get the statement of a simple KK. Why use it against a single attack you may say? He was not at full power. It's not my main point, but it plays a role. He activated it momentarily. So we can assume that full potential Blue Goku = SS Kelfa is every aspect.

Goku rn cannot use the KK effectively due to his power issues. So Kefla finds an opening as wrecks him. But for Omen to be activated a second time, he doesn't have to break through that 20 KK benchmark again. He had to reach his limits and he did.

So even if we say all this. Kefla still needed SS2 to compete with 2nd Omen Goku. But her SS was as strong as the Spirit Bomb, which again is comparable to 1st Omen.

So if this isn't a hint that Goku grew at least twice as strong by that point, then I don't know what is.

After all these years I have still to see any approval that Goku used KK×20 against SS Kefla. While we got the Merged Zamasu fight where we see Blue overpowering him and a simple KK taking him down. No, even if we wanted, that was not a KK×10. If full potential Blue Goku did that against Zamasu, then a simple Kaio Ken (which it was) should through him into the ground like that.

So same applies to Kefla.

Goku and Vegeta did get strong in the ToP. Yes new shiny forms, but unless they got stronger in their bases, there wouldn't be any significant growth in their power.

As for Borly and Gogeta, people should stop thinking numerically about 'stomps'. Just because a gang of us say that it should be a stomp due to the power difference it doesn't have to be one. From a storytelling standpoint, a compelling fight is what is needed. If the plot dictates it, Broly will survive against Blue Gogeta for 10 minutes despite their power difference. Such instances must be taken into consideration. Even if, we brand it as inconsistent (it may be). But it happened. So yeah.

Apologies for my 2 responses flooding the thread.

[Sadala Elite]

This does not back up any of the things you think it does.

Goku & Vegeta getting stronger throughout the ToP besides the new forms was outright stated and shown in the show itself (Vegeta's Pride Boost against GoD Toppo is the most obvious example). No amount of headcanon can deny this.

Second, if Black arc Vegito = Beerus, then current SSB Gogeta IS several times better than Beerus by scaling. Afterall, Broly was outright compared to Beerus in the movie & SSB Gogeta casually beat him down.

Third, your claims assume that Broly film Gogeta = Black arc Vegito, which is false and makes no sense.

Nope. Not a single line in the ToP confirms they got stronger outside of their UI and Evolution forms.

I never said Vegetto = Beerus or FT Vegetto = Broly Gogeta.

Also Gogeta is never implied to be several times stronger than Broly. He would have one shotted him otherwise.

There's several lines that do, you are just in denial of them.

Vegeta's pride boost against Toppo is the biggest example of him and Goku getting stronger without getting a new form. Its also the main reason why each UI Omen was stronger than the last.

And SSB Gogeta was toying with Broly.

[ZombieVito]

So I'm guessing this is just for the manga while anime Beerus exceeds anime Vegito?

But it mentions anime forms too?

In any case, Vegetto getting confirmed to rival Beerus sure is interesting. I always said Goku and Vegeta never got stronger in base during the ToP and they just got new more powerful forms to keep up. This new confirmation backs this up since Goku and Vegeta can't get dozens of times stronger after the Zamasu arc since that would make Gogeta several times stronger than Beerus if Vegetto rivals him.

Nappa said that the Saibaimen rivaled Raditz and the former are 80% of the latter so this is why I always had Vegetto at around 80% of Beerus.

Well let me through my piece of the argument into this lol

Another good example of characters getting stronger in the ToP. The Kefla fight! As a Super Saiyan (her own weird state that may not function as the normal SS) she was compared to the Spirit Bomb in power. This led us to assume that she could probably take on 1st Omen Goku with ease. But here we got Blue Goku, challenging her. What I mean by that?

Trading blows and energy attacks for 2 whole minutes straight! If that's not a roughly equal fight then what is? Only when she charges an attack does Goku use the KK. But, here's the catch.

SS Kefla=Spirit Bomb

Wouldnt that make Goku use 20 times KK right off the bat against her, when his power at that stage was the only thing comparable to his attack?

But we get the statement of a simple KK. Why use it against a single attack you may say? He was not at full power. It's not my main point, but it plays a role. He activated it momentarily. So we can assume that full potential Blue Goku = SS Kelfa is every aspect.

Goku rn cannot use the KK effectively due to his power issues. So Kefla finds an opening as wrecks him. But for Omen to be activated a second time, he doesn't have to break through that 20 KK benchmark again. He had to reach his limits and he did.

So even if we say all this. Kefla still needed SS2 to compete with 2nd Omen Goku. But her SS was as strong as the Spirit Bomb, which again is comparable to 1st Omen.

So if this isn't a hint that Goku grew at least twice as strong by that point, then I don't know what is.

After all these years I have still to see any approval that Goku used KK×20 against SS Kefla. While we got the Merged Zamasu fight where we see Blue overpowering him and a simple KK taking him down. No, even if we wanted, that was not a KK×10. If full potential Blue Goku did that against Zamasu, then a simple Kaio Ken (which it was) should through him into the ground like that.

So same applies to Kefla.

Goku and Vegeta did get strong in the ToP. Yes new shiny forms, but unless they got stronger in their bases, there wouldn't be any significant growth in their power.

As for Borly and Gogeta, people should stop thinking numerically about 'stomps'. Just because a gang of us say that it should be a stomp due to the power difference it doesn't have to be one. From a storytelling standpoint, a compelling fight is what is needed. If the plot dictates it, Broly will survive against Blue Gogeta for 10 minutes despite their power difference. Such instances must be taken into consideration. Even if, we brand it as inconsistent (it may be). But it happened. So yeah.

Apologies for my 2 responses flooding the thread.

Kefla was toying with him the whole time. After she one shots him by kicking him on the neck she's even disappointed the fight is over that soon.

[Hugo Boss]

Just wanted to point that Jiren actually thought Goku and Hit were the best fighters below himself. So, I wouldn’t say Golden Freeza or Blue Vegeta could beat a prepared Hit, despite being faster and stronger than him. His abilities are on another level, which required a much greater raw strength to be surpassed. Hit didn’t even let Dyspo use his full speed and even if he did it, I don’t think Dyspo could make much room over that Uchiha-Obito-kamui ability or time cage.

[Miracles]

Broly was indeed on Blue Gogeta's level. Look how much it took for him to be defeated.
Also, Broly could follow Blue Gogeta.

In DB, you have to be on par in order for these to be established.

I'm pretty sure that Gogeta Blue was several times stronger than Broly. BUT only Blue Gogeta could get the job done. God Gogeta would be an even match for Broly. This is without my headcanon. With my headcanon

FPSS Broly = 30×Blue ≈ God Gogeta
Blue Gogeta = 150× Blue ≈5×God Gogeta or FPSS Broly

It's pretty much like Omega Shenron and SS4 Gogeta. SS3 Gogeta wouldn't get the job done, but the gap between said form and the next is big enough to be a stomp.

Also durability plays a huge factor.

Durability is always part of the overall power of Dragonball characters. When they power up, all attributes increase. It's called balance. If Gogeta was several times stronger, he should of gave Broly the same two punch: hitter-quitter Gohan gave Cell. Red Gogeta would of indeed lost to Green haired Broly. As Gogeta himself felt it was necessary to just go straight to Blue against FP Broly.

You really need to watch the show again. Jiren glared at Hit and he was done. Then got sent into the stands by the finishing move.
Goku took Jiren's glare and the "it's over" finishing move and still had more than enough power to use Genki with BlueKKX20 in the struggle. Even had power to struggle with the Genki afterwards. Hit doesn't compare.
Gohan came in when Hyper Speed mode Dyspo had the advantage against Freeza. Freeza forced Dyspo to use Hyper speed mode since he was stronger and faster than the Dyspo that was beating up Hit.

Also, that image of Hit doing that to Dyspo is after Goku appeared. You got the narration all wrong.


Here, it's not that I disagree entirely, but there is a problem. We take into account how much time Hit and Goku survived against Jiren for what reason exactly?

Hit was never a brawler fighter. His durability has to be low. Freeza is a durable mf. But, Hit was able to easily overcome Dyspo after adapting to him. Freeza tanked the strikes but Hit never let Dyspo strike a vital spot either. Note how Dyspo only used his max speed in base only ONCE against Final Freeza.

Freeza goes Golden. His raw strength should be superior to Hit, his speed as well. I never denied this. Let's see. Naturally, he forces Dyspo to Ultra Light Speed Mode. His top speed. Freeza is actually being pushed back. And Dyspo has the advantage for the most part, if not for the whole fight.

Why does this matter? Once Hit figured out Dyspo he could trick him into Time Skips. At that point, Hit was the perfect counter for Dyspo, who used several times his top speed against him. Now, you may claim that he didn't force him into Light Speed Mode. You are correct. But since the episodes were months apart I can see the form not being in concept yet.

Then we must take into account that Hit also has 2 more super techniques that were not used against Dyspo. His parallel dimension and the Time Cage.

With the parallel dimension, even if Dyspo was at his best, Hit would utilize his clones to distract him and use an effective Time Skip against him. Catching him off guard with a Time Cage is game over. Only pure strength can break you free. Not speed. And definitely not Blue tier strength like Freeza's or Dyspo's.

We never saw what would happen if Gohan didn't come for the save, but I'm sure that Freeza, even by exploiting that moment, would still be at a disadvantage.

Gohan shrugged off Dyspo's attack as well. So that goes to tell that Gohan is reaching that Blue tier of strength. Albeit he would never win against True Golden Freeza. So about Dyspo, it's more that he strikes at a high speed, rather than the fact that he is strong. And that's why Gohan was keeping up with him in Freeza's death ray cage.

Back to an original point I made. You compared Goku shrugging off Jiren's attack while Hit didn't for what reason? We know that a KK×20 Blue Goku is faster and more durable than Hit will ever be. What should be in question is the effort Jiren put in both fights. With Goku he was moving around, due to the reason I stated above. Hit went for a different approach and even then Jiren rushed at him and screamed at times. And mind me, this is the same Jiren. Hit tanking punches that made Goku vomit is more impressive. And when Hit used the time cage, Jiren used a lot of effort to burst out. The Spirit Bomb may be a superior feat (although it may as well be of the same scale) but pushing it back is different than trying to break free of frozen time. A time within another dimension, since there is no time in the world of void.

So for a scale with the fighters:

Jiren ep 111-110 > Hit Time Cage ≈ Spirit Bomb > Blue KK×20 Blue > Hit > Freeza (serious vs Dyspo, unseen) ≈ Goku Blue (end of Top) > Dyspo >= Freeza (underestimating Dyspo) >= Blue Goku > Ultimate Gohan

This accounts for technique. Not just raw strength. With strategy Hit can defeat these guys behind him. Freeza tries to flex his superior strength, but Dyspo made a fool out of him. So I may say that Dyspo could have pushed Freeza off bounds, since he was underestimating Dyspo.

As for the Blue Goku = TGolden Freeza statement, it's not valid anymore since we are in the tournament rn. This Freeza compared in end of ToP Freeza. While the Blue Goku is the Goku of that time who used the KK.

But I will add end of ToP Goku just for a reference.

Because taking attacks and still fighting always demonstrated the characters strength in comparison to others. Goku didn't even lose a lot of stamina after actually fighting Jiren too. Which is another example of a character being stronger than others.

Hit didn't fight Jiren head up. Because he was outclassed and had no chance. Just like Krillin said and did against Roshi in the Tenkaich Budokai. Hit only defending and still getting damaged and then falling to less than Goku shows that he is weaker than Goku in DB.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Broly was indeed on Blue Gogeta's level. Look how much it took for him to be defeated.
Also, Broly could follow Blue Gogeta.

In DB, you have to be on par in order for these to be established.

I'm pretty sure that Gogeta Blue was several times stronger than Broly. BUT only Blue Gogeta could get the job done. God Gogeta would be an even match for Broly. This is without my headcanon. With my headcanon

FPSS Broly = 30×Blue ≈ God Gogeta
Blue Gogeta = 150× Blue ≈5×God Gogeta or FPSS Broly

It's pretty much like Omega Shenron and SS4 Gogeta. SS3 Gogeta wouldn't get the job done, but the gap between said form and the next is big enough to be a stomp.

Also durability plays a huge factor.

Durability is always part of the overall power of Dragonball characters. When they power up, all attributes increase. It's called balance. If Gogeta was several times stronger, he should of gave Broly the same two punch: hitter-quitter Gohan gave Cell. Red Gogeta would of indeed lost to Green haired Broly. As Gogeta himself felt it was necessary to just go straight to Blue against FP Broly.

You really need to watch the show again. Jiren glared at Hit and he was done. Then got sent into the stands by the finishing move.
Goku took Jiren's glare and the "it's over" finishing move and still had more than enough power to use Genki with BlueKKX20 in the struggle. Even had power to struggle with the Genki afterwards. Hit doesn't compare.
Gohan came in when Hyper Speed mode Dyspo had the advantage against Freeza. Freeza forced Dyspo to use Hyper speed mode since he was stronger and faster than the Dyspo that was beating up Hit.

Also, that image of Hit doing that to Dyspo is after Goku appeared. You got the narration all wrong.


Here, it's not that I disagree entirely, but there is a problem. We take into account how much time Hit and Goku survived against Jiren for what reason exactly?

Hit was never a brawler fighter. His durability has to be low. Freeza is a durable mf. But, Hit was able to easily overcome Dyspo after adapting to him. Freeza tanked the strikes but Hit never let Dyspo strike a vital spot either. Note how Dyspo only used his max speed in base only ONCE against Final Freeza.

Freeza goes Golden. His raw strength should be superior to Hit, his speed as well. I never denied this. Let's see. Naturally, he forces Dyspo to Ultra Light Speed Mode. His top speed. Freeza is actually being pushed back. And Dyspo has the advantage for the most part, if not for the whole fight.

Why does this matter? Once Hit figured out Dyspo he could trick him into Time Skips. At that point, Hit was the perfect counter for Dyspo, who used several times his top speed against him. Now, you may claim that he didn't force him into Light Speed Mode. You are correct. But since the episodes were months apart I can see the form not being in concept yet.

Then we must take into account that Hit also has 2 more super techniques that were not used against Dyspo. His parallel dimension and the Time Cage.

With the parallel dimension, even if Dyspo was at his best, Hit would utilize his clones to distract him and use an effective Time Skip against him. Catching him off guard with a Time Cage is game over. Only pure strength can break you free. Not speed. And definitely not Blue tier strength like Freeza's or Dyspo's.

We never saw what would happen if Gohan didn't come for the save, but I'm sure that Freeza, even by exploiting that moment, would still be at a disadvantage.

Gohan shrugged off Dyspo's attack as well. So that goes to tell that Gohan is reaching that Blue tier of strength. Albeit he would never win against True Golden Freeza. So about Dyspo, it's more that he strikes at a high speed, rather than the fact that he is strong. And that's why Gohan was keeping up with him in Freeza's death ray cage.

Back to an original point I made. You compared Goku shrugging off Jiren's attack while Hit didn't for what reason? We know that a KK×20 Blue Goku is faster and more durable than Hit will ever be. What should be in question is the effort Jiren put in both fights. With Goku he was moving around, due to the reason I stated above. Hit went for a different approach and even then Jiren rushed at him and screamed at times. And mind me, this is the same Jiren. Hit tanking punches that made Goku vomit is more impressive. And when Hit used the time cage, Jiren used a lot of effort to burst out. The Spirit Bomb may be a superior feat (although it may as well be of the same scale) but pushing it back is different than trying to break free of frozen time. A time within another dimension, since there is no time in the world of void.

So for a scale with the fighters:

Jiren ep 111-110 > Hit Time Cage ≈ Spirit Bomb > Blue KK×20 Blue > Hit > Freeza (serious vs Dyspo, unseen) ≈ Goku Blue (end of Top) > Dyspo >= Freeza (underestimating Dyspo) >= Blue Goku > Ultimate Gohan

This accounts for technique. Not just raw strength. With strategy Hit can defeat these guys behind him. Freeza tries to flex his superior strength, but Dyspo made a fool out of him. So I may say that Dyspo could have pushed Freeza off bounds, since he was underestimating Dyspo.

As for the Blue Goku = TGolden Freeza statement, it's not valid anymore since we are in the tournament rn. This Freeza compared in end of ToP Freeza. While the Blue Goku is the Goku of that time who used the KK.

But I will add end of ToP Goku just for a reference.

Because taking attacks and still fighting always demonstrated the characters strength in comparison to others. Goku didn't even lose a lot of stamina after actually fighting Jiren too. Which is another example of a character being stronger than others.

Hit didn't fight Jiren head up. Because he was outclassed and had no chance. Just like Krillin said and did against Roshi in the Tenkaich Budokai. Hit only defending and still getting damaged and then falling to less than Goku shows that he is weaker than Goku in DB.

Well yeah, even if durab is part of the main power level, if the story needs Gogeta Blue to deal with FP SS Broly for 10 minutes despite the power difference it will happen. And ofc Gogeta will try to deliver a finisher.

It's not that I don't agree with any points made, but my final conclusion is that Hit can defeat Freeza.

My point is that not talking pure fighting here. Hit's Time Cage is an ability that Goku would probably defeat only by using KK×20 Blue. Of course Hit is outmatched by this kind of power. He is, after all, a blue tier character.

But it mentions anime forms too?

In any case, Vegetto getting confirmed to rival Beerus sure is interesting. I always said Goku and Vegeta never got stronger in base during the ToP and they just got new more powerful forms to keep up. This new confirmation backs this up since Goku and Vegeta can't get dozens of times stronger after the Zamasu arc since that would make Gogeta several times stronger than Beerus if Vegetto rivals him.

Nappa said that the Saibaimen rivaled Raditz and the former are 80% of the latter so this is why I always had Vegetto at around 80% of Beerus.

Well let me through my piece of the argument into this lol

Another good example of characters getting stronger in the ToP. The Kefla fight! As a Super Saiyan (her own weird state that may not function as the normal SS) she was compared to the Spirit Bomb in power. This led us to assume that she could probably take on 1st Omen Goku with ease. But here we got Blue Goku, challenging her. What I mean by that?

Trading blows and energy attacks for 2 whole minutes straight! If that's not a roughly equal fight then what is? Only when she charges an attack does Goku use the KK. But, here's the catch.

SS Kefla=Spirit Bomb

Wouldnt that make Goku use 20 times KK right off the bat against her, when his power at that stage was the only thing comparable to his attack?

But we get the statement of a simple KK. Why use it against a single attack you may say? He was not at full power. It's not my main point, but it plays a role. He activated it momentarily. So we can assume that full potential Blue Goku = SS Kelfa is every aspect.

Goku rn cannot use the KK effectively due to his power issues. So Kefla finds an opening as wrecks him. But for Omen to be activated a second time, he doesn't have to break through that 20 KK benchmark again. He had to reach his limits and he did.

So even if we say all this. Kefla still needed SS2 to compete with 2nd Omen Goku. But her SS was as strong as the Spirit Bomb, which again is comparable to 1st Omen.

So if this isn't a hint that Goku grew at least twice as strong by that point, then I don't know what is.

After all these years I have still to see any approval that Goku used KK×20 against SS Kefla. While we got the Merged Zamasu fight where we see Blue overpowering him and a simple KK taking him down. No, even if we wanted, that was not a KK×10. If full potential Blue Goku did that against Zamasu, then a simple Kaio Ken (which it was) should through him into the ground like that.

So same applies to Kefla.

Goku and Vegeta did get strong in the ToP. Yes new shiny forms, but unless they got stronger in their bases, there wouldn't be any significant growth in their power.

As for Borly and Gogeta, people should stop thinking numerically about 'stomps'. Just because a gang of us say that it should be a stomp due to the power difference it doesn't have to be one. From a storytelling standpoint, a compelling fight is what is needed. If the plot dictates it, Broly will survive against Blue Gogeta for 10 minutes despite their power difference. Such instances must be taken into consideration. Even if, we brand it as inconsistent (it may be). But it happened. So yeah.

Apologies for my 2 responses flooding the thread.

Kefla was toying with him the whole time. After she one shots him by kicking him on the neck she's even disappointed the fight is over that soon.

Classic powerful blow during lowered guard stuff for DB. These can be lethal.

And Goku didn't show any major fatigue issues with Kefla, nor was he on the pinch. He could counter her. And whilst he was weakened. There is no doubt that at full power, he would be able to deal with her without using the KK. And this very same reason is why Base Kefla seemingly surpassed SSG. So if anything he put a very good fight.

[Miracles]

I'm pretty sure that Gogeta Blue was several times stronger than Broly. BUT only Blue Gogeta could get the job done. God Gogeta would be an even match for Broly. This is without my headcanon. With my headcanon

FPSS Broly = 30×Blue ≈ God Gogeta
Blue Gogeta = 150× Blue ≈5×God Gogeta or FPSS Broly

It's pretty much like Omega Shenron and SS4 Gogeta. SS3 Gogeta wouldn't get the job done, but the gap between said form and the next is big enough to be a stomp.

Also durability plays a huge factor.

Durability is always part of the overall power of Dragonball characters. When they power up, all attributes increase. It's called balance. If Gogeta was several times stronger, he should of gave Broly the same two punch: hitter-quitter Gohan gave Cell. Red Gogeta would of indeed lost to Green haired Broly. As Gogeta himself felt it was necessary to just go straight to Blue against FP Broly.

You really need to watch the show again. Jiren glared at Hit and he was done. Then got sent into the stands by the finishing move.
Goku took Jiren's glare and the "it's over" finishing move and still had more than enough power to use Genki with BlueKKX20 in the struggle. Even had power to struggle with the Genki afterwards. Hit doesn't compare.
Gohan came in when Hyper Speed mode Dyspo had the advantage against Freeza. Freeza forced Dyspo to use Hyper speed mode since he was stronger and faster than the Dyspo that was beating up Hit.

Also, that image of Hit doing that to Dyspo is after Goku appeared. You got the narration all wrong.


Here, it's not that I disagree entirely, but there is a problem. We take into account how much time Hit and Goku survived against Jiren for what reason exactly?

Hit was never a brawler fighter. His durability has to be low. Freeza is a durable mf. But, Hit was able to easily overcome Dyspo after adapting to him. Freeza tanked the strikes but Hit never let Dyspo strike a vital spot either. Note how Dyspo only used his max speed in base only ONCE against Final Freeza.

Freeza goes Golden. His raw strength should be superior to Hit, his speed as well. I never denied this. Let's see. Naturally, he forces Dyspo to Ultra Light Speed Mode. His top speed. Freeza is actually being pushed back. And Dyspo has the advantage for the most part, if not for the whole fight.

Why does this matter? Once Hit figured out Dyspo he could trick him into Time Skips. At that point, Hit was the perfect counter for Dyspo, who used several times his top speed against him. Now, you may claim that he didn't force him into Light Speed Mode. You are correct. But since the episodes were months apart I can see the form not being in concept yet.

Then we must take into account that Hit also has 2 more super techniques that were not used against Dyspo. His parallel dimension and the Time Cage.

With the parallel dimension, even if Dyspo was at his best, Hit would utilize his clones to distract him and use an effective Time Skip against him. Catching him off guard with a Time Cage is game over. Only pure strength can break you free. Not speed. And definitely not Blue tier strength like Freeza's or Dyspo's.

We never saw what would happen if Gohan didn't come for the save, but I'm sure that Freeza, even by exploiting that moment, would still be at a disadvantage.

Gohan shrugged off Dyspo's attack as well. So that goes to tell that Gohan is reaching that Blue tier of strength. Albeit he would never win against True Golden Freeza. So about Dyspo, it's more that he strikes at a high speed, rather than the fact that he is strong. And that's why Gohan was keeping up with him in Freeza's death ray cage.

Back to an original point I made. You compared Goku shrugging off Jiren's attack while Hit didn't for what reason? We know that a KK×20 Blue Goku is faster and more durable than Hit will ever be. What should be in question is the effort Jiren put in both fights. With Goku he was moving around, due to the reason I stated above. Hit went for a different approach and even then Jiren rushed at him and screamed at times. And mind me, this is the same Jiren. Hit tanking punches that made Goku vomit is more impressive. And when Hit used the time cage, Jiren used a lot of effort to burst out. The Spirit Bomb may be a superior feat (although it may as well be of the same scale) but pushing it back is different than trying to break free of frozen time. A time within another dimension, since there is no time in the world of void.

So for a scale with the fighters:

Jiren ep 111-110 > Hit Time Cage ≈ Spirit Bomb > Blue KK×20 Blue > Hit > Freeza (serious vs Dyspo, unseen) ≈ Goku Blue (end of Top) > Dyspo >= Freeza (underestimating Dyspo) >= Blue Goku > Ultimate Gohan

This accounts for technique. Not just raw strength. With strategy Hit can defeat these guys behind him. Freeza tries to flex his superior strength, but Dyspo made a fool out of him. So I may say that Dyspo could have pushed Freeza off bounds, since he was underestimating Dyspo.

As for the Blue Goku = TGolden Freeza statement, it's not valid anymore since we are in the tournament rn. This Freeza compared in end of ToP Freeza. While the Blue Goku is the Goku of that time who used the KK.

But I will add end of ToP Goku just for a reference.

Because taking attacks and still fighting always demonstrated the characters strength in comparison to others. Goku didn't even lose a lot of stamina after actually fighting Jiren too. Which is another example of a character being stronger than others.

Hit didn't fight Jiren head up. Because he was outclassed and had no chance. Just like Krillin said and did against Roshi in the Tenkaich Budokai. Hit only defending and still getting damaged and then falling to less than Goku shows that he is weaker than Goku in DB.

Well yeah, even if durab is part of the main power level, if the story needs Gogeta Blue to deal with FP SS Broly for 10 minutes despite the power difference it will happen. And ofc Gogeta will try to deliver a finisher.

It's not that I don't agree with any points made, but my final conclusion is that Hit can defeat Freeza.

My point is that not talking pure fighting here. Hit's Time Cage is an ability that Goku would probably defeat only by using KK×20 Blue. Of course Hit is outmatched by this kind of power. He is, after all, a blue tier character.

Well yeah, if you're talking about just deciding a victor; Not just in terms of power, It's very possible that Hit could defeat Frieza.

As Cell stated...

Chapter: 410 (DBZ 216), P6.3
Context: after Gohan beats Cell up
Cell: “Unbelievable..! To think that someone like this could exist in this world…I’m completely losing in terms of power…But a battle’s outcome is a different matter…”

[Nevaeh]

Hit took the same shots SSBKK Goku did (dialogue states this) and handled them a lot better.

If Freeza got tagged with the same chest shot Jiren did, his chest would've exploded

[TheSaiyanGod]

Hit took the same shots SSBKK Goku did (dialogue states this) and handled them a lot better.

If Freeza got tagged with the same chest shot Jiren did, his chest would've exploded

SSB Goku was able to withstand several blows from Jiren, even before activating Kaioken. I don't see why Freeza wouldn't be able to do the same

And IIRC, Hit is said to be blocking all of Jiren's attacks, receiving minimal damage. It's a different approach than Goku had against Jiren

[Xeogran]

Do you guys think that current UI Omen > ToP Mastered UI? Because even though Goku trained a lot since the Tournament, I still think that'd be a stretch to say, given how much of a "Miracle" this form is, and that the Angels were looking forward to see it in the latest chapter.

[Triggered Vegeta]

Do you guys think that current UI Omen > ToP Mastered UI? Because even though Goku trained a lot since the Tournament, I still think that'd be a stretch to say, given how much of a "Miracle" this form is, and that the Angels were looking forward to see it in the latest chapter.

I once thought UI Omen was about as strong as UI(manga)(silver) but going by the latest chapter I'm not so sure.

We have Moro who transcends the Gods just like Jiren... So it's safe to assume he's about as strong as full power Jiren(manga) who out lasted UI(Silver)

Now you have Moro dominate this version of Omen... Although you could say Goku was losing a bunch of stamina by powering up so much.

Goku is certainly within that realm, but it's just not enough to defeat opponent's that strong. Until he masters UI with no drawbacks, I don't think he can effectively beat someone as strong as Jiren, Broly & Moro.

[Nevaeh]

Do you guys think that current UI Omen > ToP Mastered UI? Because even though Goku trained a lot since the Tournament, I still think that'd be a stretch to say, given how much of a "Miracle" this form is, and that the Angels were looking forward to see it in the latest chapter.

Unless directly stated I'm gonna go with no. Goku being vaguely stronger isn't enough for me

[Block88]

So I'm guessing this is just for the manga while anime Beerus exceeds anime Vegito?

Yes, the quote refers to the manga version, the anime never attempted any comparison between Beerus and Vegito.
But the anime does present stronger characters, so if in the manga the fusion can be compared to Beerus, then at the very least so should the anime, I guess? Specially when manga Beerus > anime Beerus.

Though It should be noted that Vegito was only compared when charging the FKHH, an attack we know can more than double the user's power, and was not compared when trashing Zamasu. So a case could be made saying Vegito could only match Beerus with his strongest attack and not really on a one-on-one. That V-Jump quote says he has the power to rival Beerus, not that he can beat him.

That some high level head canon that neither toyo nor v jump implied to be the case

[Koitsukai]

Though It should be noted that Vegito was only compared when charging the FKHH

That some high level head canon that neither toyo nor v jump implied to be the case

Shin literally compares Vegito's power to Beerus' just when he is at his max about to fire the attack, not before.

[Miracles]

Shouldn't get into a passionate discussion about non canon V-Jump. Which contradicts the manga and Toyotaro's own words about Beerus and Vegetto. It's simply not a factor.