Is it fair to say that Dragon Ball is no longer marketed to kids in North America?

[Robo4900]

These days, Funimation doesn't tend to market to anyone outside their core anime audience of teens and young adults.

IMO, that's a shame for Dragon Ball, which is inherently a kids' show, but it is what it is. In fairness, they have tried in the past, as recently as Kai 1.0, to great success (despite what certain "NO. BAD CENSORSHIP!!! AHHH!!"-minded people will tell you), but I'm not sure American TV is interested in anime; they want more Teen Titans Go-alikes, so Dragon Ball ends up having to sit with the other anime on Adult Swim.

So... Would be nice if Funi tried to expand out more into kids' audiences, but probably to do that, they'd have to get Dragon Ball on Netflix or something, and I hear Toei USA are quite awkward about streaming licenses, and Netflix and Funi are kind of trying to compete in the anime space anyway (one of many reasons I personally think Netflix should pick up Ocean Kai; Netflix could get a slice of the Dragon Ball pie in the UK and Canada, at least, and get some kids hooked on Dragon Ball), so I think for now, in America, Dragon Ball is a victim of poor circumstances for kids' action cartoons and anime, where the networks just aren't interested, so it's just not allowed to exist in that space anymore.

Streaming is turning this all around a little (Clone Wars and Young Justice both got revived on Netflix, and now Clone Wars has come back again, on Disney+, so action cartoons aren't totally dead), but I don't think any Dragon Ball is streaming in North America outside of FuniNow, except for subbed Super on Crunchyroll.

[Matches Malone]

These days, Funimation doesn't tend to market to anyone outside their core anime audience of teens and young adults.

Dragon Ball is a victim of poor circumstances for kids' action cartoons and anime, where the networks just aren't interested, so it's just not allowed to exist in that space anymore.

That's because American kids have become so sheltered that everyone involved would have to waste countless hours censoring everything. Action would have to be toned down, certain characters would have to be covered up, Some of the dialogue would have to be changed, etc. It just wouldn't be worth it.

[Robo4900]

These days, Funimation doesn't tend to market to anyone outside their core anime audience of teens and young adults.

Dragon Ball is a victim of poor circumstances for kids' action cartoons and anime, where the networks just aren't interested, so it's just not allowed to exist in that space anymore.

That's because American kids have become so sheltered that everyone involved would have to waste countless hours censoring everything. Action would have to be toned down, certain characters would have to be covered up, Some of the dialogue would have to be changed, etc. It just wouldn't be worth it.

American kids don't have any problem with violence, and never have.

American PARENTS have always had problems with all sorts of things they shouldn't, and networks tend to bow to their will, to avoid complaints.
But, things have improved, for instance with Steven Universe's depiction of gay relationships.

To be honest, I don't think a sudden onset of concerns about violence are the problem with action cartoons and anime (and any such ideas that kids or parents suddenly became oversensitive in the past decade is nonsense); it's more just a case of shows like Teen Titans Go being cheap and easy to produce, making fucktons of cash, and everyone wanting similar hits on their hands.
TV like Avatar The Last Airbender or Ben 10 Alien Force got thrown to the wayside for ten-minutes-a-pop comedy on lower budgets, faster turnaround, and a larger age range (Ben 10 Alien Force is really for older kids, and teens; something like Teen Titans Go is for anyone under about 13 or 14). Younger kids tend to be more prone to buying merchandise, and cartoons targetted at slightly older audiences tend to struggle to hold teenage audiences, so shows that aim younger often have larger audiences, so it's a perfect storm of incentives that leads kids' TV to lean heavily to younger-skewing programming done cheaper, and for everything to be pure comedy, no drama like Batman TAS, Avatar, Ben 10, or anything else of the like.

[Matches Malone]

American PARENTS have always had problems with all sorts of things they shouldn't, and networks tend to bow to their will, to avoid complaints.

Unfortunately, and it's resulting in a generation that doesn't know up from down. I really wish these networks would just air what they want and stop trying to satisfy everyone with access to a keyboard.

[Robo4900]

American PARENTS have always had problems with all sorts of things they shouldn't, and networks tend to bow to their will, to avoid complaints.

Unfortunately, and it's resulting in a generation that doesn't know up from down.

... What?

I really wish these networks would just air what they want and stop trying to satisfy everyone with access to a keyboard.

They air what will earn them the most money. And from that point of view, they already do air whatever they want.

[Yuli Ban]

Dragon Ball isn't aimed at kids peroid anymore.

Took me a while to stop laughing

To think Dragon Ball isn't aimed at little kids in Japan is like someone in Saudi Arabia thinking Wallace and Gromit isn't aimed at kids in Britain. Just horrifyingly, outrageously false view. You're confusing a peripheral demographic for the target demographic.


Reminder: Japan doesn't have the same puritanical culture that we did in the West. The idea that kids can't handle realistic consequences isn't a tradition there like it is here, hence why children's cartoons in Japan are perfectly fine with showing graphic injuries and sexualization, whereas children's cartoons in America for the longest time took place in ultra-escapist fantasy lands where nothing bad ever really happened besides comically mean characters and bad luck.

Shows like Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, Hunter x Hunter, and Kill la Kill, for example, were basically Saturday morning cartoons (and understood as such) in Japan, but Western nerd culture (which is obsessed which children's media) think of them as adult-oriented action shows aimed squarely at the 16+ crowd. (In fact, an example of anime aimed at adults in Japan would be things like Berserk... but also K-On! and Crayon Shin-chan)

Even amongst these, Dragon Ball is considered juvenile in Japan. Like not "Nick Jr." juvenile, but getting pretty close. It just goes to show how massive of a divide there is between our cultures.

If America had the same sort of lack of puritanism as Japan does, cartoons here wouldn't be constantly trying to "get crap past the radar" as TV Tropes put it. Think of early 2000s Cartoon Network or Nickelodeon cartoons and imagine them featuring characters who actually suffered genuine injuries, casually swore, had unfortunate camera angles on them, and whatnot. Except it was still understood as being "TV-Y7", as in shows for 7 year olds. That's basically Japanese media.

[WittyUsername]

What even constitutes an adult anime/manga series in Japan, outside of hentai?

[JulieYBM]

What even constitutes an adult anime/manga series in Japan, outside of hentai?

Otaku-driven series that typically air late at night and early morning. These series are typically about cute girls.

[Yuli Ban]

What even constitutes an adult anime/manga series in Japan, outside of hentai?

The seinen and josei demographics, simply enough.

If it's meant for adults (like watching "cute girls do cute things" or some in-depth examination of otherwise very mature themes and characterization). Nerd culture in the West has a very stunted idea of what "mature" means because of the rise of shonen anime leading to children's media suddenly being able to show off things like blood, gore, big tiddies, openly sadistic characters, and whatnot. And "adult cartoons" didn't really help matters since they doubled down on that misconception (partially to exploit the new liberal attitudes about animation at the time, which wasn't a bad thing considering that, again, cartoons were supposed to be unrealistic escapist tripe that did more to harm children's perception of the world than anything). Something meant for adults could be fluffy but not outright childish (think of Seinfeld), or definitely meant for actual examination and reflection (like, say, Twin Peaks). Anime and manga are great examples of illustrations being a medium, alongside what we've seen from French and Russian animators in the 20th century. American cartoons have struggled to break out of the animation age ghetto (because of moral guardians saying that animation is a genre, not a medium) for decades, and it was unfortunate that being over-the-top and ironically super-childish with violence, crudeness, and sexuality was the only way anyone could take it seriously for the longest time (like, say, Fritz the Cat).

My absolutely favorite memory stems back to the Sega of America forums when I asked people what a "seinen" Sonic game would be like, and people unironically said "Shadow the Hedgehog" and even defended their answer.
Or on another forum where I saw someone unironically claim that Dragon Ball is actually a seinen series "because it has blood and perverts in it." Agh......... At this rate, I'm going to become Kunzait.

[WittyUsername]

What even constitutes an adult anime/manga series in Japan, outside of hentai?

The seinen and josei demographics, simply enough.

If it's meant for adults (like watching "cute girls do cute things" or some in-depth examination of otherwise very mature themes and characterization). Nerd culture in the West has a very stunted idea of what "mature" means because of the rise of shonen anime leading to children's media suddenly being able to show off things like blood, gore, big tiddies, openly sadistic characters, and whatnot. And "adult cartoons" didn't really help matters since they doubled down on that misconception (partially to exploit the new liberal attitudes about animation at the time, which wasn't a bad thing considering that, again, cartoons were supposed to be unrealistic escapist tripe that did more to harm children's perception of the world than anything). Something meant for adults could be fluffy but not outright childish (think of Seinfeld), or definitely meant for actual examination and reflection (like, say, Twin Peaks). Anime and manga are great examples of illustrations being a medium, alongside what we've seen from French and Russian animators in the 20th century. American cartoons have struggled to break out of the animation age ghetto (because of moral guardians saying that animation is a genre, not a medium) for decades, and it was unfortunate that being over-the-top and ironically super-childish with violence, crudeness, and sexuality was the only way anyone could take it seriously for the longest time (like, say, Fritz the Cat).

My absolutely favorite memory stems back to the Sega of America forums when I asked people what a "seinen" Sonic game would be like, and people unironically said "Shadow the Hedgehog" and even defended their answer.
Or on another forum where I saw someone unironically claim that Dragon Ball is actually a seinen series "because it has blood and perverts in it." Agh......... At this rate, I'm going to become Kunzait.

I know about seinen and josei as demographics, but I’m not entirely sure how something can earn a spot in either of those demographics, when something like Death Note is apparently considered kid friendly enough to qualify as a shonen series.

[Yuli Ban]

At some point, it comes down to the nuance and content of the writing, sort of like trying to figure out the crossover points from a children's book to a young adult book and a young adult book to a "grown up" book.

[ArmenianPepsi]

What even constitutes an adult anime/manga series in Japan, outside of hentai?

...and it was unfortunate that being over-the-top and ironically super-childish with violence, crudeness, and sexuality was the only way anyone could take it seriously for the longest time (like, say, Fritz the Cat).

That's something that I hate with a passion. In the US "Adult animation" is a joke. Literally shows like Adventure Time, Regular Show, Avatar, etc, tell more mature, complex, interesting, and more "Adult" stories than anything ever shat out of something like Family Guy.

Almost every time some new "Adult cartoon" comes out, it's the same crap. Either some South Park or Family Guy rip-off, that is cheaply made, and only exists to be as crude and offensive as possible for the sake of being crude and offensive. To these writers and directors, "Adult" to them defaults to "Sex, drugs, guns, swearing and violence!1!1!!". Ironically they end up making the shows even more childish than an episode of Spongebob. 90% of the time it's all the same lazy sleazy crap. Too many to list.

[WittyUsername]

At some point, it comes down to the nuance and content of the writing, sort of like trying to figure out the crossover points from a children's book to a young adult book and a young adult book to a "grown up" book.

Death Note just seems to be completely lacking in nearly all the qualities that you would associate with a shonen series. It’s not about friendship, adventure or overcoming adversity. It’s a story about a narcissistic psychopath with a God complex who uses a book to give people heart attacks. Does simply having fantasy elements make something kid friendly by default in Japan?

[Cure Dragon 255]

These days, Funimation doesn't tend to market to anyone outside their core anime audience of teens and young adults.

Dragon Ball is a victim of poor circumstances for kids' action cartoons and anime, where the networks just aren't interested, so it's just not allowed to exist in that space anymore.

That's because American kids have become so sheltered that everyone involved would have to waste countless hours censoring everything. Action would have to be toned down, certain characters would have to be covered up, Some of the dialogue would have to be changed, etc. It just wouldn't be worth it.

American kids don't have any problem with violence, and never have.

American PARENTS have always had problems with all sorts of things they shouldn't, and networks tend to bow to their will, to avoid complaints.
But, things have improved, for instance with Steven Universe's depiction of gay relationships.

To be honest, I don't think a sudden onset of concerns about violence are the problem with action cartoons and anime (and any such ideas that kids or parents suddenly became oversensitive in the past decade is nonsense); it's more just a case of shows like Teen Titans Go being cheap and easy to produce, making fucktons of cash, and everyone wanting similar hits on their hands.
TV like Avatar The Last Airbender or Ben 10 Alien Force got thrown to the wayside for ten-minutes-a-pop comedy on lower budgets, faster turnaround, and a larger age range (Ben 10 Alien Force is really for older kids, and teens; something like Teen Titans Go is for anyone under about 13 or 14). Younger kids tend to be more prone to buying merchandise, and cartoons targetted at slightly older audiences tend to struggle to hold teenage audiences, so shows that aim younger often have larger audiences, so it's a perfect storm of incentives that leads kids' TV to lean heavily to younger-skewing programming done cheaper, and for everything to be pure comedy, no drama like Batman TAS, Avatar, Ben 10, or anything else of the like.

God I love you..r way of thinking you wonderful human being.

[JulieYBM]

'Made for kids' does not actually mean 'child appropriate', of course. I struggle to think of an anime I'd actually show my children but again, these things are all up to parental discretion.

Shows for adults are like Wataten, Violet Evergarden and modern JoJo. Dragon Ball and Boruto are series still aimed at children first, as evidence by the fact that the majority of their mechandise is aimed at kids, they air during the morning or day and are very closely associated with JUMP. We also don't get any big projects aimed at adults. Arguably The Last: Naruto the Movie and Boruto: Naruto the Movie had a bit more of a slant towards adults considering the major focus of those stories but otherwise the franchis's renewal since the end of Shippuuden is centered on bringing the story back to a younger audience. Thankfully enough, the anime staff have still tried to maintain the spirit of Naruto by tackling important themes.

[Cure Dragon 255]

What about Precure? Its gentle and innocent enough and like you said its hard to find anything that isnt Peppa Pig when it comes to innocent media.

[JulieYBM]

What about Precure? Its gentle and innocent enough and like you said its hard to find anything that isnt Peppa Pig when it comes to innocent media.

PreCure and Pokemon (maybe?) are probably the only series I can name off of the top of my head. I sure I could dig up some older stuff too if I looked but I'm tireeeeeeeedddddddddd.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

Dragon Ball isn't aimed at kids peroid anymore. Hence why Toei don't have to put a show on air to make DB relevant anymore they have established fans that aren't going anywhere. Back in Kai days more or less all the merch was aimed at kids but nowadays it's all aimed at the adult fans, heck the one release (Wafer Stickers) that Bandai actually made for kids became so popular amongst the adult collectors that Bandai begun making merch of the stickers for them ie figures, straps and what not.

Probably why Kai failed & why modern DB was so successful. Instead of trying to get a new generation into DB they should have been using the established fans they had.

(It's also crazy how when BoG came out there was basically no merch for it that year... it came out in March! Now with no show on air and the recent movie almost 2 years old DB somehow still manages to outsell most properties. Craziness)

Yep. Pretty much. And to add to that, one look at the demographic of the Broli movie says everything that needs to be said. It was the 20-40 age group that drove it to the massive success that it became both in Japan and overseas territories.

[Robo4900]

God I love you..r way of thinking you wonderful human being.

Thanks, though I don't think I'm any paragon of good. Look at half the immature, stupid shit I've said about the hard-working Funi cast who I talked shit about just 'cause I grew up on the Canadian cast, and how crazy I've got about some DVD releases that I don't like.

Spoiler:

Dragon Ball isn't aimed at kids peroid anymore. Hence why Toei don't have to put a show on air to make DB relevant anymore they have established fans that aren't going anywhere. Back in Kai days more or less all the merch was aimed at kids but nowadays it's all aimed at the adult fans, heck the one release (Wafer Stickers) that Bandai actually made for kids became so popular amongst the adult collectors that Bandai begun making merch of the stickers for them ie figures, straps and what not.

Probably why Kai failed & why modern DB was so successful. Instead of trying to get a new generation into DB they should have been using the established fans they had.

(It's also crazy how when BoG came out there was basically no merch for it that year... it came out in March! Now with no show on air and the recent movie almost 2 years old DB somehow still manages to outsell most properties. Craziness)

Yep. Pretty much. And to add to that, one look at the demographic of the Broli movie says everything that needs to be said. It was the 20-40 age group that drove it to the massive success that it became both in Japan and overseas territories.

I don't buy it.

In America, there's a huge undercurrent of people in the 18-40 "key demographic" who turn out for the show on Toonami and Crunchyroll, most of whom watched the original American run 20 years ago, but in general, Dragon Ball is still a kids' show. In Japan, its primary target is still 8-year-olds, but they know they have a huge fanbase of adults too, so they cater to nostalgia as well.
So, they earn piles of cash from kids buying toys, and piles of cash from adults going to the movies, watching it on TV, etc. It's the business model Toei uses for Dragon Ball, it's the business model Disney uses for their live-action remakes, and the MCU, and Star Wars, and pretty much all their other huge endeavours.

I think the critical sticking point for you here is that "It's for kids" doesn't mean "It's not for adults", it means "It's primarily for kids, but really it's for everyone." Understand that, and you understand that we're both right.
Batman TAS, Avatar The Last Airbender, etc. etc... They're "For kids", but really they're for everyone. Kids buy the toys, adults buy the DVDs. Saying these shows aren't for kids, just because they also cater to the adults fans, is pretty naive.

But, these days, Funimation don't really have any outlet for getting Dragon Ball to where kids tend to watch stuff, so they just cater to the audience they can reach -- nostalgic people and/or anime fans in their 20s and 30s.
Look at the marketing for DBZ Kakarot; Japan marketed a delightful journey through the magical Dragon World, American marketed a HARDCORE DEE BEE ZEE EXPERIENCE...
Would be nice if American networks and such could get Dragon Ball to kids, because that's where it should be, but right now, its audience is pretty solidly people who already liked it 20 years ago, who are still into it. And unless we get a second wave of shows like Yu-Gi-Oh, Dragon Ball, Pokémon, et al. being given prominent exposure to a new generation of kids (which was kinda attempted about ten years ago, with CW4Kids, Kai on Nicktoons, etc., but that's over now), Dragon Ball in America is gonna be pretty much stuck with its existing audience.

[TheGreatness25]

Are people trying to say that today's "America" is somehow more sheltered than in the 90s? Back then, they couldn't even allude to death or even say the word. I think in the late 90s and early 2000s, the rules of kids' TV started changing a bit. I mean, all you have to do is compare "seasons one and two" to "season three" of Dragon Ball Z and contrast how they were presented. I think people forgot just how cheesy and safe TV was in the 90s -- at least children's programming. I'm pretty sure if you put Kai's heavily censored run against the original Z, I'd bet Kai would still be less safe, whether it be with blood or a reference to death (don't know, never saw Kai airing on TV, but it's just a guess).

Children's TV has always been censored in the US. Amd I kind of get it. A network dedicated to cartoons is assumed to be aimed at kids of all ages. So, while it's okay for an eight-year-old to see some blood, it might be inappropriate and scrary for a two-year-old or a three-year-old. I don't know, I'm not a parent, but I'm pretty sure that I won't sit my three-year-old to watch Dragon Ball -- not because of violence or whatever, but more because I'd rather they watch something more productive that stimulates thought.

All I know is that apparently, Japan has become more strict with their own guidelines, but I don't think the same is true for the US.