Xeno Goku Black wrote: ↑Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:42 pm
Well of the bunch and to go into more detail I'd say from weakest to strongest
Super Saiyan Kefla - Because Base Kefla was weaker than Super Saiyan Blue
Super Saiyan Broly - Because Base Broly was a little weaker than Super Saiyan Blue
Ultra Instinct Goku (First Time) - Because it was said to be weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Kefla
Super Saiyan 2 Kefla - For the reason above.
God of Destruction Toppo - Maybe? It just seems like being the second main antagonist after Jiren and being a God of Destruction should put him higher than a Super Saiyan 2 Fusion when fellow God of Destruction Beerus was Super Saiyan Blue Fusion level.
Evolved Blue Vegeta - Because he beat him.
Ultra Instinct Goku (Second Time) - Because he used this level of power initially against Jiren also and performed better than you'd think Vegeta would have.
Jiren - Because he was stronger.
Ultra Instinct Goku (Third Time) - Or just after he powered up and eventually surpassed Jiren.
You can somewhat argue that Blue Evolution and GoD Toppo, kinda scale off of 3rd Omen. As in, it had been a while since Kefla was defeated and the fights were quite intense, peaking with 3rd Omen.
But ofc, 2nd Omen is strong too.
And then there is the idea that Kefla even in her overloaded SS2, may not be able to overcome Toppo's energy of destruction with her attacks, or be smart enough to utilize her Ki the same way as Vegeta (although there may also be the implication that only God Ki can nullify energy of destruction).
Thani wrote: ↑Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:56 pm
I would just add that the Blue Evolution Vegeta that defeated GoD Toppo is not his usual realm of power. Afterwards, he was again stuck to perform more or less the same as SSBKKx20 Goku against Jiren. So, to me, that "power up" from pride was a temporary deal.
I don't think the pride boost was temporary. Even wounded, Vegeta's punch was praised by Jiren, who said he understood why he had been able to defeat Toppo. Since this only became possible after the boost, then I believe he has maintained that power
I've been meaning to get my thoughts out on this for a long time, and it’s been a good excuse to re-watch the latter half of the Tournament of Power, so I hope this post is helpful.
Detailing the insane power boosts in the Tournament of Power:
The first notable instance of a “tournament stress induced power increase” is Android 18 against Ribrianne, but let’s jump ahead to Episode 122 for now.
Spoiler:
SSB Vegeta performs much, much better against Jiren than SSB Goku (even with the Kaio-Ken x20), to the point that someone like Shin thinks that he might be winning, and even Belmod is worried. It's clearly stated that this was simply because Vegeta made a point to observe Jiren's fighting style when he was fighting against Goku.
Spoiler:
SSB Vegeta (Adapting) > SSB Kaio-Ken x20 Goku
But that's not all, it's also stated that Vegeta got a massive surge in power afterwards when Jiren challenged his pride. It's a large enough increase to the point that one could argue Vegeta's Final Flash was more powerful than Goku's prior Genkidama, since Belmod and co. seem more worried about Vegeta’s attack then they ever were regarding the Genkidama. Not to mention Jiren feels the need to quickly brace himself and block the attack rather than… you know, pushing it back by staring at it.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Belmod’s reaction to the Genki-Dama:
Belmod’s reaction to the Final Flash:
Vegeta’s Final Flash > Goku’s Genkidama
After this event, Vegeta goes to unlock "SSB Evolution", so you could argue that all this power Vegeta demonstrated was just a glimpse of his SSBE power, and Vegeta was just slowly approaching it with his regular SSB.
But then somehow even SSB Goku is able to perform much better against Jiren than he did before.
Jiren powers up beyond anything we've seen before.
Spoiler:
Jiren (Vs. Goku and Vegeta) > Jiren (Vs. UI Goku)
And then Goku's able to trade blows with him, even without Blue Kaio-Ken.
Spoiler:
SSB Goku (Adapting) > SSB Kaio-Ken x20 Goku
Later on, when both Goku and Vegeta power-up, there's a clear visual indication implying that SSB Goku is slightly stronger than SSB Vegeta even with the power boost the latter is noted to have gained. Notice how Goku’s Ki flares slightly higher than Vegeta’s when both of them power up.
Spoiler:
SSB Goku (Adapting) >= SSB Vegeta (Adapting)
Finally, Goku uses Kaio-Ken on top of this strength as a last resort, and Vegeta unlocks his SSB Evolution form. Jiren notes that both of their attacks are sharper than before.
Spoiler:
SSB Goku (Kaio-Ken x20) >=< SSBE Vegeta >> SSB Goku (Adapting) >= SSB Vegeta (Adapting)
Fighting together with their unconventional style of teamwork, they actually pressurize Jiren. Everyone on Universe 7’s side is hopeful that both of them might just defeat Jiren, even though the latter has powered up beyond his prior strength against UI Goku.
Spoiler:
Jiren (Vs. Goku and Vegeta) >= SSB Kaio-Ken x20 Goku & SSBE Vegeta (fighting together) > Jiren (Vs. UI Goku) > UI Goku
After that the focus shifts to Toppo. And a tl;dr on GoD Toppo’s strength is that his Hakai energy overpowers Vegeta’s Final Flash, but then Vegeta gets yet another “Pride Boost”, goes shirtless and overpowers Toppo.
Spoiler:
It’s implied that SSBE Vegeta is still around this heightened realm of power when he fights a further powered up Jiren, as Jiren commends Vegeta’s punch and acknowledges that he’d be able to defeat Toppo.
After it comes down once again to just Goku vs Jiren, things become a lot clearer.
Goku approaches Jiren’s power but is still weaker with his third “Omen” as Jiren starts actually using his Full Power. This holds true until Goku powers up and gains control over the offensive side of Ultra Instinct, at which point he’s at Jiren’s level followed by further attaining what we call the “Mastered Ultra Instinct” form, going shirtless and finally overpowering Jiren.
MUI Goku > Jiren (Full Power) >= UI Goku (3rd Omen, Powered Up) > Jiren (Vs. Goku and Vegeta) >= UI Goku (3rd Omen)
Jiren taps into his past trauma, at which point he goes shirtless (which as we’ve seen twice earlier, signifies that you’re stronger than the other guy now) and begins holding his own against Goku. Goku seems to get another boost when Jiren tries harming Goku’s friends though, and finally defeats Jiren.
MUI Goku (Powered Up) > Jiren (Shirtless) > MUI Goku (Initial) > Jiren (Prior Full Power)
Now, at this point the fight is over, Goku has won. But, with the fight over, the point of “breaking your limits” suddenly sets home when it ends up breaking Goku’s body, reverting him back to his base form. However, not only being battered down, but also having lost his spirit, at this point Jiren is much weaker than he was before.
Spoiler:
How much weaker? It’s enough that while it takes both Golden Freeza and Android 17 to defeat the weakened Jiren, 17 says that Freeza could’ve done it even if 17 wasn’t there.
Even Freeza should surely be weakened after the ass-whooping he got from Toppo, but he’s still implied to be stronger than 17.
17 even though he was damaged, is an infinite-energy model Android. So while he might be in bad enough shape that he’s barely standing on his legs, his Ki Blasts should still pack the same amount of punch as they would if 17 was completely healthy.
After this however, Jiren regains his spirit and is just strong enough that 17 and Golden Freeza alone can’t hold back his attack. They need Base Goku to hop in for the three of them to cancel out Jiren’s attack.
How is the likes of Base Goku a deciding factor between the beam struggle of characters who should be around Blue Goku’s level?
The simplest answer is indeed that the power boost reflected in SSB Goku also carries over to Base Goku.
Spoiler:
Even Freeza who has reverted to his True Form is able to keep up. He’s weakened enough to the point that he’s weaker than “Golden Freeza” but stronger than he would regularly be in his True form.
Jiren is weakened enough, and Goku and Frieza have powered up enough, that they can actually outmaneuver Jiren with their teamwork, and finally defeat him when Goku gets a last minute power-up and transforms into a Super Saiyan.
Why these power boosts were most likely temporary:
So here’s the interesting part: it’s not just Goku and Vegeta, almost everyone else in the Tournament of Power clearly goes beyond their limits as well. Ergo, it’s not just a Saiyan thing.
It’s even clearly spelled out by Goku right here if you missed it somehow:
Spoiler:
This leads me to believe that these boosts were most likely temporary, and should not be considered outside the tournament of Power. It’s similar to the thing about the Saiyans closing the gap between them and stronger opponents, but virtually anyone can do it under the same circumstances.
If Goku (after the Tournament of Power) were to fight another Goku (before the Tournament of Power), it would still be a close fight. Because neither of them would break through their limits against an opponent weaker or equal to them. And if they did, then both of them eventually would.
At most, you could argue that someone who “broke their limit” once might have an easier time doing the same in the future, but it’s too far-fetched to assume that Current Base Goku is stronger than Pre-ToP SSB Goku.
First case in point: Goku vs Hit in the Universe 6 Tournament
Spoiler:
Base Goku is able to actually damage Hit and keep up with him, displaying a much better performance than SSB Vegeta just because he was aware of Hit’s technique and his fighting style. But even when he goes Super Saiyan Blue himself, he isn’t suddenly magnitudes stronger than Hit.
You don’t see anyone arguing Base Goku > SSB Vegeta now do you?
Second case in point: Base Goku vs Sidra’s Hakai Energy
Spoiler:
This same Hakai energy made True Golden Frieza actually exert effort to resist it, and yet Base Goku resists it all the same.
We’ve seen it time and again in the Movies and what not. Goku and Vegeta sometimes just don’t transform till the last minute, yet they can keep up with stronger opponents. The implication seems to be that while they can’t defeat a stronger opponent in a weaker form, they can still hold their own for a while after they’re comfortable fighting at that level.
My interpretation of why any of the characters never powered up like this before the Tournament of Power:
Simply put, it’s the setting and the rules of the Tournament of Power that allowed even weaker characters to power up by such absurd amounts.
It’s a combination of these two factors:
1. Killing is prohibited in the Tournament. Ergo, while in a different setting, a weaker character might instantly evaporate after eating a stronger Ki Blast, here they actually have a chance to adapt to their opponent’s fighting style since their opponent won’t actively use their full power to kill them.
2. The time limit in the tournament as well as the high stakes of your entire universe getting erased should give the fighters in the tournament an adrenaline boost unlike any other.
Keeping all of this in mind, here’s how a power scale would look like for all these characters from strongest to weakest:
MUI Goku (Powered Up)
Jiren (Super Full Power)
MUI Goku
Jiren (Full Power)
UI Goku (Third Omen)
Jiren (Vs. Goku, Vegeta & 17)
Jiren (Vs. Goku & Vegeta)
SSBE Vegeta (Beyond Limits)
GoD Toppo
SSBKKx20 Goku (Beyond Limits)
SSBE Vegeta
Jiren (Vs. UI Goku)
UI Goku (First Omen)
Vegeta’s Final Flash
Goku’s Genkidama
SSB Goku (Beyond Limits)
SSB Vegeta (Beyond Limits)
SSBKKx20 Goku
Jiren (Weakened)
SSB Goku
Golden Frieza
SSB Vegeta
Jiren (Weakened + Spirit Broken)
Frieza (Beyond Limits)
Goku (Beyond Limits)
Android 17
SS Goku
Frieza
Goku
DBZ Macky wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:43 pm
I've been meaning to get my thoughts out on this for a long time, and it’s been a good excuse to re-watch the latter half of the Tournament of Power, so I hope this post is helpful.
Detailing the insane power boosts in the Tournament of Power:
The first notable instance of a “tournament stress induced power increase” is Android 18 against Ribrianne, but let’s jump ahead to Episode 122 for now.
Spoiler:
SSB Vegeta performs much, much better against Jiren than SSB Goku (even with the Kaio-Ken x20), to the point that someone like Shin thinks that he might be winning, and even Belmod is worried. It's clearly stated that this was simply because Vegeta made a point to observe Jiren's fighting style when he was fighting against Goku.
Spoiler:
SSB Vegeta (Adapting) > SSB Kaio-Ken x20 Goku
But that's not all, it's also stated that Vegeta got a massive surge in power afterwards when Jiren challenged his pride. It's a large enough increase to the point that one could argue Vegeta's Final Flash was more powerful than Goku's prior Genkidama, since Belmod and co. seem more worried about Vegeta’s attack then they ever were regarding the Genkidama. Not to mention Jiren feels the need to quickly brace himself and block the attack rather than… you know, pushing it back by staring at it.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Belmod’s reaction to the Genki-Dama:
Belmod’s reaction to the Final Flash:
Vegeta’s Final Flash > Goku’s Genkidama
After this event, Vegeta goes to unlock "SSB Evolution", so you could argue that all this power Vegeta demonstrated was just a glimpse of his SSBE power, and Vegeta was just slowly approaching it with his regular SSB.
But then somehow even SSB Goku is able to perform much better against Jiren than he did before.
Jiren powers up beyond anything we've seen before.
Spoiler:
Jiren (Vs. Goku and Vegeta) > Jiren (Vs. UI Goku)
And then Goku's able to trade blows with him, even without Blue Kaio-Ken.
Spoiler:
SSB Goku (Adapting) > SSB Kaio-Ken x20 Goku
Later on, when both Goku and Vegeta power-up, there's a clear visual indication implying that SSB Goku is slightly stronger than SSB Vegeta even with the power boost the latter is noted to have gained. Notice how Goku’s Ki flares slightly higher than Vegeta’s when both of them power up.
Spoiler:
SSB Goku (Adapting) >= SSB Vegeta (Adapting)
Finally, Goku uses Kaio-Ken on top of this strength as a last resort, and Vegeta unlocks his SSB Evolution form. Jiren notes that both of their attacks are sharper than before.
Spoiler:
SSB Goku (Kaio-Ken x20) >=< SSBE Vegeta >> SSB Goku (Adapting) >= SSB Vegeta (Adapting)
Fighting together with their unconventional style of teamwork, they actually pressurize Jiren. Everyone on Universe 7’s side is hopeful that both of them might just defeat Jiren, even though the latter has powered up beyond his prior strength against UI Goku.
Spoiler:
Jiren (Vs. Goku and Vegeta) >= SSB Kaio-Ken x20 Goku & SSBE Vegeta (fighting together) > Jiren (Vs. UI Goku) > UI Goku
After that the focus shifts to Toppo. And a tl;dr on GoD Toppo’s strength is that his Hakai energy overpowers Vegeta’s Final Flash, but then Vegeta gets yet another “Pride Boost”, goes shirtless and overpowers Toppo.
Spoiler:
It’s implied that SSBE Vegeta is still around this heightened realm of power when he fights a further powered up Jiren, as Jiren commends Vegeta’s punch and acknowledges that he’d be able to defeat Toppo.
After it comes down once again to just Goku vs Jiren, things become a lot clearer.
Goku approaches Jiren’s power but is still weaker with his third “Omen” as Jiren starts actually using his Full Power. This holds true until Goku powers up and gains control over the offensive side of Ultra Instinct, at which point he’s at Jiren’s level followed by further attaining what we call the “Mastered Ultra Instinct” form, going shirtless and finally overpowering Jiren.
MUI Goku > Jiren (Full Power) >= UI Goku (3rd Omen, Powered Up) > Jiren (Vs. Goku and Vegeta) >= UI Goku (3rd Omen)
Jiren taps into his past trauma, at which point he goes shirtless (which as we’ve seen twice earlier, signifies that you’re stronger than the other guy now) and begins holding his own against Goku. Goku seems to get another boost when Jiren tries harming Goku’s friends though, and finally defeats Jiren.
MUI Goku (Powered Up) > Jiren (Shirtless) > MUI Goku (Initial) > Jiren (Prior Full Power)
Now, at this point the fight is over, Goku has won. But, with the fight over, the point of “breaking your limits” suddenly sets home when it ends up breaking Goku’s body, reverting him back to his base form. However, not only being battered down, but also having lost his spirit, at this point Jiren is much weaker than he was before.
Spoiler:
How much weaker? It’s enough that while it takes both Golden Freeza and Android 17 to defeat the weakened Jiren, 17 says that Freeza could’ve done it even if 17 wasn’t there.
Even Freeza should surely be weakened after the ass-whooping he got from Toppo, but he’s still implied to be stronger than 17.
17 even though he was damaged, is an infinite-energy model Android. So while he might be in bad enough shape that he’s barely standing on his legs, his Ki Blasts should still pack the same amount of punch as they would if 17 was completely healthy.
After this however, Jiren regains his spirit and is just strong enough that 17 and Golden Freeza alone can’t hold back his attack. They need Base Goku to hop in for the three of them to cancel out Jiren’s attack.
How is the likes of Base Goku a deciding factor between the beam struggle of characters who should be around Blue Goku’s level?
The simplest answer is indeed that the power boost reflected in SSB Goku also carries over to Base Goku.
Spoiler:
Even Freeza who has reverted to his True Form is able to keep up. He’s weakened enough to the point that he’s weaker than “Golden Freeza” but stronger than he would regularly be in his True form.
Jiren is weakened enough, and Goku and Frieza have powered up enough, that they can actually outmaneuver Jiren with their teamwork, and finally defeat him when Goku gets a last minute power-up and transforms into a Super Saiyan.
Why these power boosts were most likely temporary:
So here’s the interesting part: it’s not just Goku and Vegeta, almost everyone else in the Tournament of Power clearly goes beyond their limits as well. Ergo, it’s not just a Saiyan thing.
It’s even clearly spelled out by Goku right here if you missed it somehow:
Spoiler:
This leads me to believe that these boosts were most likely temporary, and should not be considered outside the tournament of Power. It’s similar to the thing about the Saiyans closing the gap between them and stronger opponents, but virtually anyone can do it under the same circumstances.
If Goku (after the Tournament of Power) were to fight another Goku (before the Tournament of Power), it would still be a close fight. Because neither of them would break through their limits against an opponent weaker or equal to them. And if they did, then both of them eventually would.
At most, you could argue that someone who “broke their limit” once might have an easier time doing the same in the future, but it’s too far-fetched to assume that Current Base Goku is stronger than Pre-ToP SSB Goku.
First case in point: Goku vs Hit in the Universe 6 Tournament
Spoiler:
Base Goku is able to actually damage Hit and keep up with him, displaying a much better performance than SSB Vegeta just because he was aware of Hit’s technique and his fighting style. But even when he goes Super Saiyan Blue himself, he isn’t suddenly magnitudes stronger than Hit.
You don’t see anyone arguing Base Goku > SSB Vegeta now do you?
Second case in point: Base Goku vs Sidra’s Hakai Energy
Spoiler:
This same Hakai energy made True Golden Frieza actually exert effort to resist it, and yet Base Goku resists it all the same.
We’ve seen it time and again in the Movies and what not. Goku and Vegeta sometimes just don’t transform till the last minute, yet they can keep up with stronger opponents. The implication seems to be that while they can’t defeat a stronger opponent in a weaker form, they can still hold their own for a while after they’re comfortable fighting at that level.
My interpretation of why any of the characters never powered up like this before the Tournament of Power:
Simply put, it’s the setting and the rules of the Tournament of Power that allowed even weaker characters to power up by such absurd amounts.
It’s a combination of these two factors:
1. Killing is prohibited in the Tournament. Ergo, while in a different setting, a weaker character might instantly evaporate after eating a stronger Ki Blast, here they actually have a chance to adapt to their opponent’s fighting style since their opponent won’t actively use their full power to kill them.
2. The time limit in the tournament as well as the high stakes of your entire universe getting erased should give the fighters in the tournament an adrenaline boost unlike any other.
Keeping all of this in mind, here’s how a power scale would look like for all these characters from strongest to weakest:
MUI Goku (Powered Up)
Jiren (Super Full Power)
MUI Goku
Jiren (Full Power)
UI Goku (Third Omen)
Jiren (Vs. Goku, Vegeta & 17)
Jiren (Vs. Goku & Vegeta)
SSBE Vegeta (Beyond Limits)
GoD Toppo
SSBKKx20 Goku (Beyond Limits)
SSBE Vegeta
Jiren (Vs. UI Goku)
UI Goku (First Omen)
Vegeta’s Final Flash
Goku’s Genkidama
SSB Goku (Beyond Limits)
SSB Vegeta (Beyond Limits)
SSBKKx20 Goku
Jiren (Weakened)
SSB Goku
Golden Frieza
SSB Vegeta
Jiren (Weakened + Spirit Broken)
Frieza (Beyond Limits)
Goku (Beyond Limits)
Android 17
SS Goku
Frieza
Goku
Exceptional work. I fully stand by this scale. Good job!
DBZ Macky: Your missing important narration points. Vegeta did not outperform Goku because it was noted that Jiren was sandbagging against Vegeta compared to Goku.
Miracles wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:32 pmDBZ Macky: Your missing important narration points. Vegeta did not outperform Goku because it was noted that Jiren was sandbagging against Vegeta compared to Goku.
That's just as much of a vague statement tho. Vegeta observed Goku's fight with Jiren while in 1st Omen. Ofc he would refer to the greatest example of Jiren's might up until then.
Vegeta claimed he (Jiren) was stronger and faster when facing Goku, in which Jiren responds by unleashing more power, which Vegeta tanked and countered, so much so that he got another boost in power to deliver the Final Flash, whereas KK×20 Blue Goku previously got owned by Jiren's punches, not by a powered blast.
So it makes sense, narratively for Vegeta Blue to be at that level, as he had no KK to showcase against Jiren and his evolution happened later.
Miracles wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:32 pmDBZ Macky: Your missing important narration points. Vegeta did not outperform Goku because it was noted that Jiren was sandbagging against Vegeta compared to Goku.
That's just as much of a vague statement tho. Vegeta observed Goku's fight with Jiren while in 1st Omen. Ofc he would refer to the greatest example of Jiren's might up until then.
Vegeta claimed he (Jiren) was stronger and faster when facing Goku, in which Jiren responds by unleashing more power, which Vegeta tanked and countered, so much so that he got another boost in power to deliver the Final Flash, whereas KK×20 Blue Goku previously got owned by Jiren's punches, not by a powered blast.
So it makes sense, narratively for Vegeta Blue to be at that level, as he had no KK to showcase against Jiren and his evolution happened later.
It was outright/blatantly stated by Vegeta that Jiren was stronger against Goku. There is no interpretation needed.
Miracles wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:32 pmDBZ Macky: Your missing important narration points. Vegeta did not outperform Goku because it was noted that Jiren was sandbagging against Vegeta compared to Goku.
That's just as much of a vague statement tho. Vegeta observed Goku's fight with Jiren while in 1st Omen. Ofc he would refer to the greatest example of Jiren's might up until then.
Vegeta claimed he (Jiren) was stronger and faster when facing Goku, in which Jiren responds by unleashing more power, which Vegeta tanked and countered, so much so that he got another boost in power to deliver the Final Flash, whereas KK×20 Blue Goku previously got owned by Jiren's punches, not by a powered blast.
So it makes sense, narratively for Vegeta Blue to be at that level, as he had no KK to showcase against Jiren and his evolution happened later.
It was outright/blatantly stated by Vegeta that Jiren was stronger against Goku. There is no interpretation needed.
And Vegeta was doing quite well against him.... Until Jiren got more serious, in which not even Vegeta could respond. It's not like he is stronger than 1st Omen, but at the very least comparable to KK×20 Blue from early ToP
That's just as much of a vague statement tho. Vegeta observed Goku's fight with Jiren while in 1st Omen. Ofc he would refer to the greatest example of Jiren's might up until then.
Vegeta claimed he (Jiren) was stronger and faster when facing Goku, in which Jiren responds by unleashing more power, which Vegeta tanked and countered, so much so that he got another boost in power to deliver the Final Flash, whereas KK×20 Blue Goku previously got owned by Jiren's punches, not by a powered blast.
So it makes sense, narratively for Vegeta Blue to be at that level, as he had no KK to showcase against Jiren and his evolution happened later.
It was outright/blatantly stated by Vegeta that Jiren was stronger against Goku. There is no interpretation needed.
And Vegeta was doing quite well against him.... Until Jiren got more serious, in which not even Vegeta could respond. It's not like he is stronger than 1st Omen, but at the very least comparable to KK×20 Blue from early ToP
Not the case. Especially when the directors stated that Vegeta's Blue evolution is only around the power of Blue KK.
It was outright/blatantly stated by Vegeta that Jiren was stronger against Goku. There is no interpretation needed.
And Vegeta was doing quite well against him.... Until Jiren got more serious, in which not even Vegeta could respond. It's not like he is stronger than 1st Omen, but at the very least comparable to KK×20 Blue from early ToP
Not the case. Especially when the directors stated that Vegeta's Blue evolution is only around the power of Blue KK.
That happened later. It is irrelevant to the power scale before Vegeta's fight with Jiren. As shown in the scale, Goku also grew in strength and the 2 were roughly on the same terms again, before growing even more for a last time.
It's as Miracles said. The moment Jiren got "serious", as in, by context, showed the same output he used agains UI Omen Goku, he was wiping the floor with both Goku and Vegeta at the same time. And this was before Vegeta tried the super charged Final Flash.
Both SSBKK and SSBE were consistently portrayed as offering the same increase in power, making Goku and Vegeta finally equals in the anime.
However, until their evolution, both were in normal Blue. So there is definitely a power increase there. Keep what you want from this, but it doesn't change the fact that both got stronger by that time.
Thani wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:35 pm
It's as Miracles said. The moment Jiren got "serious", as in, by context, showed the same output he used agains UI Omen Goku, he was wiping the floor with both Goku and Vegeta at the same time. And this was before Vegeta tried the super charged Final Flash.
I didn't bring up Jiren sandbagging against Vegeta because it's pretty much irrelevant. When Jiren was sandbagging, Vegeta was legitimately pushing him back and winning. It's kind of implicit that Jiren must've held back less when he actually delivers the blow to Vegeta that sends him flying.
Jiren might've been using less power against the SSBs than he did against UI Goku, but Vegeta clearly had a much better performance.
Nothing to mention of the fact that Belmod was able to sense Ki, as he sensed the rise in Jiren's power. Why the hell would he be worried about the Final Flash if Vegeta didn't power up greatly? They make it a point to state that not only is Vegeta is adapting to Jiren's fighting style, but he does indeed get a massive surge of energy as well.
Thani wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:35 pm
Both SSBKK and SSBE were consistently portrayed as offering the same increase in power, making Goku and Vegeta finally equals in the anime.
By the time Goku and Vegeta fight Jiren together, Goku's Ki is shown to be greater through visual indication. So sure, it makes sense that with Kaio-Ken he could be around SSBE's level.
Though personally I feel that SSBE was shown to be much stronger in the Tournament, as when both of them were fighting Jiren, Vegeta was more on the offensive than Goku, but it could go either way. They were most likely on the same level.
Current SSB Goku with Kaio-Ken = Current SSBE Vegeta is something I have no problems with.
It seemed like Moro was clearly much stronger than Vegeta until Vegeta started to use his new technique, and that technique wouldn't do anything to Goku we can presume. And Goku and Moro seemed pretty even in strength, it's just that ultra instinct sign has a big stamina problem.
But then there's comments from Goku that he'll "surpass [vegeta] again" in the future.
Jack Bz wrote: ↑Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:38 am
Is Vegeta actually stronger than Goku now?
It seemed like Moro was clearly much stronger than Vegeta until Vegeta started to use his new technique, and that technique wouldn't do anything to Goku we can presume. And Goku and Moro seemed pretty even in strength, it's just that ultra instinct sign has a big stamina problem.
But then there's comments from Goku that he'll "surpass [vegeta] again" in the future.
It has been evident in the Manga that Blue Evo Vegeta ranked between Goku's strongest Blue and Omen. But seeing his performance here, despite Goku just using a power Stressed Omen to match Moro is raw strength (and ability to an extend, cause it was still Omen) Vegeta may as well have the edge.
Moro is quite the special enemy tho. He was both weakened and Vegeta was fighting him with far more efficiency. But at the very least, the strongest Vegeta is comparable to normal Omen Goku now.
Ofc if Goku can't use Omen at will even after all this, Vegeta blows him away.
Moro is surprised by Vegeta's increased power and says he would be his greatest meal.And Goku says in the same chapter that he would need to overcome Vegeta now.
So it seems that SSBE Vegeta, in addition to the new technique, is also stronger than UI Omen Goku
Hes not stronger than Ultra Instinct Sign Goku. Goku actually hurt Moro and made him bleed, gave him some trouble and it was only his own power failing him that caused him to lose so badly at the end.
Meanwhile Vegeta didn't really hurt Moro at all as was said. It was just that Vegeta drained his energy away from him to weaken him was what gave him the upperhand.
He surpassed Goku with a superior technique and achieving something that Goku did not but in a one on one fight as long as Goku could maintain his power he'd win for sure.
Goku pretty much admitted Vegeta is ahead now, since Vegeta’s move only works on those who rely on the power of others. But, if Goku manages to use the definitive version of Ultra Instinct..
