"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

The fight isn't over, and based on Piccolo's speech, I think Vegeta still has a good chance at killing him. It's also worth noting that Vegeta "lost" to a fused being, not single Moro.

The only thing that vegeta could do is try to defuse Moro but ... I don't see it feasible since if that were the case I would have already done it but we'll see the merger for another chapter so ..

The fusion legit just appeared on the screen, he literally just made an appearance. Vegeta had no idea what the fuck even happened, all he saw himself getting kicked into a bunch of rocks. Even if he tries defusing them, its going to be a massive pain in the ass given how the fusion will no doubt be more cautious around Vegeta due to his powers. Unless Vegeta can do it at a distance, I imagine trying to defuse Moro is going to be a pain in the ass.

[Matches Malone]

So who is stronger between Vegeta and Goku now? Goku was far more impressive against Moro but Moro, Piccolo, and Goku all seems to think that Vegeta is superior. Despite him getting smacked around hard?

I don't think it's a matter of strength anymore, but techniques. Vegeta's technique gives him an advantage against someone like Moro, but UI can give Goku advantages over beings Vegeta's technique won't work on.

[HeroR]

So who is stronger between Vegeta and Goku now? Goku was far more impressive against Moro but Moro, Piccolo, and Goku all seem to think that Vegeta is superior. Despite him getting smacked around hard?

I thought the message here was to show how Vegeta beating Moro despite being weaker than Goku is that physical strength is not everything.

Vegeta was the smart one. He directly countered Moro's ability instead of trying to out power it like Goku. Which his frustrating when Goku knows at least two techniques that would have been useful. Even more annoying when Goku knew about this technique, but for some reason didn't think it would be great for Moro.

[Triggered Vegeta]

So who is stronger between Vegeta and Goku now? Goku was far more impressive against Moro but Moro, Piccolo, and Goku all seem to think that Vegeta is superior. Despite him getting smacked around hard?

I thought the message here was to show how Vegeta beating Moro despite being weaker than Goku is that physical strength is not everything.

Techniques aside. Goku I'd say is still physically more powerful than Vegeta.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

So who is stronger between Vegeta and Goku now? Goku was far more impressive against Moro but Moro, Piccolo, and Goku all seems to think that Vegeta is superior. Despite him getting smacked around hard?

I don't think it's a matter of strength anymore, but techniques. Vegeta's technique gives him an advantage against someone like Moro, but UI can give Goku advantages over beings Vegeta's technique won't work on.

Strength shouldn't be the main focus when you have to worry about Moro-7-3 stealing your energy or copying your powers. I don't think Vegeta's stealing technique will work on Moro due to Moro now being half artificial lifeform. Draining him would be dicey, and I have my doubts it would work. Vegeta and Goku's best bet is hoping to somehow use the defusion technique and UI to their favor and hope for the best.

[Lord Beerus]

Everyone recognizes Vegeta as a good person, the problem is that Vegeta doesn't see it that way, which is great character development IMO.

Look at it this way, if you committed a crime and payed for it (jail time, fine, community service, etc.), you're recognized by the law as "good", but will you see it that way ? Vegeta simply doesn't believe he's done enough to make up for all the terrible things he did back int he day, and is trying to right those wrongs, despite everyone believing he's made up for them.

The big problem with this is that all of Vegeta's messes have already been cleaned up. The Namekians he massacred on Namek back in the day and all the humans he killed out of spite in the Majin Boo arc were brought back to life. And Vegeta recognising he fucked up and wanted to make positive difference and atone was already done. He fucking killed himself in the vain hope of stopping an evil being he knowingly helped resurrect. And in the end he was considered a good person, and there was never any indication of him feeling like he didn't deserve it. He accepted that and moved on. Which was also largely the theme of his character arc.

This could have worked if Dragon Ball did more to establish a grey area when it comes to judging people in the afterlife. But Dragon Ball treats morality incredibly black and white. You either "good" or "bad". It's not like real life whether there are several shades of grey.

This! This is a part of Vegeta we rarely see. Self doubt and Guilt are rare traits from the prideful bastard. Even when all his friends and family, a magic dragon, and a godly ritual believe that he is a good person, Vegeta still has that feeling that he’ll never be able to make up for it.

Vegeta going through self-doubt and guilt was already done in the Freeza arc, the Cell arc and Majin Boo arc. With the endgame of his character development being that, yes, he can become a good person and is capable of thinking of the well-being of others.

[Kinokima]

I noticed some are saying Vegeta telling Goku he's better than him is character regression, but I don't see it that way. Goku and Vegeta are constantly going back and forth with each other, it doesn't mean they don't respect each other. Goku even says Vegeta being ahead is only temporary.

I've said it countless times, but the problem with a good portion of DB's fanbase is that they don't get Vegeta. They want him to be someone he's not, and they think every instance of character development should apply to the entirety of his personality.

Between taking innocuous rival banter out of context, blowing Vegeta's "villain" description out of proportion when the point of the arc is that he feels remorse and is trying to atone for past misdeeds, acting like he shouldn't expect he might go to hell when (again) the point of the arc is that he feels remorse and is trying to atone for past misdeeds, or pretending he shouldn't attempt to make peace with the Namekians despite already feeling guilt over what he did to the Earthlings in the Boo arc, there are already too many examples of people twisting context, taking statements hyper-literally, not paying attention to the story, etc.

Vegeta is a better person now. He's also a habitual shit-talker and occasional self-berater. These are not mutually exclusive concepts.

It just gets tiresome every time Vegeta brags people complain and say he regressed like he doesn’t do it every other chapter.i get people don’t like that is the direction they took Vegeta in. Hell you can even say it is repetitive


But it’s not him regressing or going back on his character development when it’s been a consistent trait of his since the start of Super (hell since the special editions of the manga)

I actually wish they would stop putting it in because I am sick to death of people complaining about it and acting like it negates all of Vegeta’s other development.

“Oh Vegeta cares about the Namekians he killed Oh but wait he still brags and cares about surpassing Goku. Development out the window.”


And yeah I’m with you on the Villain thing. Vegeta doesn’t think anything he does will atone for his past. It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. Of course Vegeta isn’t evil or a villain. And we certainly didn’t need Piccolo telling us he changed (that was the actual worst part of the chapter) . The point is Vegeta isn’t doing anything because he thinks it will make up for his past but because it’s the right thing to do.


As for Vegeta beating Moro it’s irrelevant. He proved his point Moro can not win without stealing from others. More importantly Vegeta brought back the Namekians that were killed and gave back the life force of the planets. So it’s not like all the training he did was for nothing.

[Matches Malone]

Vegeta and Goku's best bet is hoping to somehow use the defusion technique and UI to their favor and hope for the best.

Whis said not to expect the miracle of MUI, but I think that's exactly what will happen. Considering how Moro was stronger than Omen, this is the perfect time to have Goku fall into MUI while Vegeta works on separating them.

Techniques aside. Goku I'd say is still physically more powerful than Vegeta.

I think Vegeta is now equal to Omen, but that of course changes if Goku can access the Mastered form.

[The Undying]

Vegeta still thinking he's a bad person is terrible writing because it undermines circumstances in the original story

It's the exact opposite. Vegeta still thinking he's a bad person strengthens his circumstances in the original story.

This demonstrates exactly how far he's willing to go to make amends, despite what others think. "I'm a good person now, so everything's okay!" is so fundamentally not Vegeta and so thoroughly self-excusing that this is the part where I have to question if people really, truly understand this character.

Vegeta hasn't received this much development or depth since the original manga.

[Matches Malone]

Vegeta hasn't received this much development or depth since the original manga.

This is exactly what's been missing from Super, and something I hope we'll continue to see in future arcs with other characters. The fights are great and all, but it's the character development that really gets me invested in these stories.

This turn of events is why I think Vegeta deserves to kill Moro, because he's not fighting to look good or to prove a point to Goku, but to make up for his past.

[Triggered Vegeta]

But that'd mean Vegeta is relative to prime Moro in raw power.. which we know is not the case. Goku's attacks had more power than Vegeta's.

Moro only began to really feel the blows after Vegeta started to drain him. Moro Prime = UI Omen in raw power. Only problem is Goku ran out of juice.

[Matches Malone]

Only problem is Goku ran out of juice.

That wasn't it, Goku got impatient and pushed himself too hard. Had he taken his time as Merus told him to, he would've done a lot better.

[Kanassa]

2. You seem to have missed the purpose of Vegeta talking about going to Hell. Piccolo talks about how much Vegeta has changed and how much of a good guy henis now, while Vegeta doesn’t see it that way. He feels so much guilt for his past actions that he doesn’t think he can make up for it and that he is destined for Hell no matter what. That shows how noble and selfless he has become that he doesn’t think he can make up for his sins.

Urg, you just made this chapter even worse. This is not Vegeta even after his redemption, with this whole guilt bullshit be forced as all hell.

[Omniboy]

I'm okay with Vegeta shit talking Goku. That always seems to be his thing. That said I'm confused about him about him being villain. Wasn't there a wish made in the buu saga that revived all the "good" people, and it was decided that Vegeta was one of them?

Also, what's with that Moro form? I was fine with the decision to make him look young, even though I like his older look. But this looks awful. He looks like he belongs to Dragon ball heroes now. Such a shame for such an interesting design.

[Triggered Vegeta]

Only problem is Goku ran out of juice.

That wasn't it, Goku got impatient and pushed himself too hard. Had he taken his time as Merus told him to, he would've done a lot better.

Oh yeah I forgot about that. I think it was either Whis or Merus that said he wasn't using UI correctly. I really hope when he really masters it... I don't want him to burst out in rage like in the anime. Rage doesn't fit UI one bit. Should always be calm or lose the state.

[Kinokima]

Everyone recognizes Vegeta as a good person, the problem is that Vegeta doesn't see it that way, which is great character development IMO.

Look at it this way, if you committed a crime and payed for it (jail time, fine, community service, etc.), you're recognized by the law as "good", but will you see it that way ? Vegeta simply doesn't believe he's done enough to make up for all the terrible things he did back int he day, and is trying to right those wrongs, despite everyone believing he's made up for them.

The big problem with this is that all of Vegeta's messes have already been cleaned up. The Namekians he massacred on Namek back in the day and all the humans he killed out of spite in the Majin Boo arc were brought back to life. And Vegeta recognising he fucked up and wanted to make positive difference and atone was already done. He fucking killed himself in the vain hope of stopping an evil being he knowingly helped resurrect. And in the end he was considered a good person, and there was never any indication of him feeling like he didn't deserve it. He accepted that and moved on. Which was also largely the theme of his character arc.

This could have worked if Dragon Ball did more to establish a grey area when it comes to judging people in the afterlife. But Dragon Ball treats morality incredibly black and white. You either "good" or "bad". It's not like real life whether there are several shades of grey.

This! This is a part of Vegeta we rarely see. Self doubt and Guilt are rare traits from the prideful bastard. Even when all his friends and family, a magic dragon, and a godly ritual believe that he is a good person, Vegeta still has that feeling that he’ll never be able to make up for it.

Vegeta going through self-doubt and guilt was already done in the Freeza arc, the Cell arc and Majin Boo arc. With the endgame of his character development being that, yes, he can become a good person and is capable of thinking of the well-being of others.

With the exception of killing the people in the stadium Vegeta has never truly reflected on his past.


And no all of Vegeta’s past deeds have not been fixed. He was a villain for years before even coming to Earth.

[Dbzfan94]

He looks like Cell with Super Buu's pants

[Matches Malone]

I'm confused about him about him being villain. Wasn't there a wish made in the buu saga that revived all the "good" people, and it was decided that Vegeta was one of them?

Yes, but Vegeta doesn't believe he's done enough to make up for those sins, despite the dragon and his friends saying otherwise.

[TheSaiyanGod]

But that'd mean Vegeta is relative to prime Moro in raw power.. which we know is not the case. Goku's attacks had more power than Vegeta's.

Moro only began to really feel the blows after Vegeta started to drain him. Moro Prime = UI Omen in raw power. Only problem is Goku ran out of juice.

UI Omen Goku is weaker than Moro, Moro himself says that. Meanwhile, Goku put himself in an inferior position compared to Vegeta, which reinforces what Moro said about Vegeta being his best meal, implying that he is stronger than UI Omen Goku

Androids probably don’t have spirit, so this fusion will likely mean Vegeta’s new technique that he spent so much time developing just for the sake of beating Moro is probably immediately neutered in the end fight and didn’t even last and entire chapter.

Yeah Vegeta fans are just going to looooove that....

I don't see why Androids shouldn't have Spirit. At least those like 17 and 18 and possibly 7-3 too.

Thinking about it, though, no one uses it, so who knows the extent that would affect somebody else other than Moro... it might not affect them at all, or very little.

But I think that's fine. Vegeta learned this technique at this specific moment to defeat Moro. Later on he can still use it, but it's good he doesn't get something that could just end every fight anytime he fights, like UI feels. Keeps things more interesting.

Also, man, I haven't seen you in so long lol

Not sure how UI wins a fight every time when UI literally never won in the manga. Even in the anime, it only defeated Kelfa and it wasn’t even mentioned in the Broly movie.

Also, I doubt we’ll ever see this again when Toyo pretends Goku doesn’t know the Evil Containment Wave nor Hakai.

Toyo recognized SSBE and Roshi's fake UI after ToP. Mafuba is a technique that Goku was only willing to use because the enemy was immortal. In the case of Moro, he was only arrested by the Galactic Patrol because they were unable to kill him. I don't think that locking him back in a jar with Mafuba would be the best option. The only thing that was ignored was Hakai, which is also not a technique that Goku likes to use

[Lord Beerus]

Vegeta still thinking he's a bad person is terrible writing because it undermines circumstances in the original story

It's the exact opposite. Vegeta still thinking he's a bad person strengthens his circumstances in the original story.

This demonstrates exactly how far he's willing to go to make amends, despite what others think. "I'm a good person now, so everything's okay!" is so fundamentally not Vegeta and so thoroughly self-excusing that this is the part where I have to question if people really, truly understand this character.

Vegeta hasn't received this much development or depth since the original manga.

The issue is that Vegeta has already made amends. Aspects of Vegeta's character like feeling guilt for what he's done were already covered and ended naturally. And even if you wanted to go back into that well, I'm certain Vegeta has killed many more people/species than just the Namkeians and some of the people on Earth. So the buck doesn't even stop on what happened on Namek.

Trying to villainize Vegeta at this stage, when knows he's better than what he was before, is beyond reductive. If you wanted to have an character arc where Vegeta question the circumstances of his morality given his history, then this should have been done years ago. At least before it was confirmed Vegeta was a righteous person at heart. Because when the story goes out its way to show you that this person is good at heart, and have them be aware of that, you can't just all of a sudden 180 on that and have the character display some kind of self-loathing and say he's going to Hell. It's not organic storytelling. There was no foundation or build-up for this. It just come across as arbitrary and unnecessary angst. It's especially counter-intuitive for character who's personal arc was defined by him shedding the angst and bitterness he had towards others who were stronger than him.