"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[MCDaveG]

Why? He has Yusuke's Spirit Gun now!

Why wouldn't he ? he's probably a fan just like us.

Well, if Vegeta is fan of Yu Yu Hakusho, I thought he will be more of a Hiei fan.

[Kagari]

Resurrection 'F' did happened and he was confronted by the man who not only blew up his race, but also is basically everything he hates about his past self. Yet, in that moment, Vegeta treated Freeza, a new toy to play with or that annoying guy that came back to life.

I agree, Vegeta should've had some character reflection and development when standing in front of Freeza.

How was it about him from the start when the main point was Boo being taken?

That's something Goku should have been doing as the main character who already knows about their techniques and about controlling genki.

And what major thing has Buu done since he was taken ? nothing. In terms of Vegeta, if you can't see how the story has constantly been focusing on him more than anyone else then...OK.

(insert name here) should've gotten X, Y, & Z because he or she is the main character is the absolute worst argument anyone can make. The reason Goku went with Merus instead is because he wants to master the technique of the angles, UI. I guess you would've preferred for Goku to train with both Merus and the Yardratians while Vegeta just went back home and waited to be kicked around with the other Z fighters.

Grand Supreme Kai was just an excuse to give Moro some background and a tenuous connection to the main cast, as well as an excuse to see Buu do something.

I think it was the right move. It shows that there's more to the Kais than just their fight with Buu. I also prefer the idea of Moro being someone already established within the lore over just showing up out of nowhere.

The problem with that is that Goku outright knew about a technique that could hard counter Moro in that he not only knew exactly what Vegeta was doing even how it worked despite not actually seeing it. So you're telling me that Goku, despite even seeing a Yadrate just an arc ago, couldn't come to the same conclusion as Vegeta? Instead, he thought auto-dodge with a stamina draining form was the answer. What's worse, Goku spent nearly a year on Yadrate making him not seeming to remember this extremely useful technique even more mind-numbing and honestly hard to believe.

What more, Vegeta asking to go to Yadrate to begin with was random. Like, what exactly made Vegeta think of the Yadrates in that moment? And even more, he didn't even know that they would have anything that would helped him. He went there on a wing and a pray, and got lucky. Having Goku, who went to Yadrate and knew what their other techniques were but could only master one at the time, makes far better sense than inserting Vegeta in there.

Maybe if we had a panel or two of Goku and Vegeta throwing shit against the wall and Goku mentioned Yadrate in passing and Vegeta gets an idea, it may work better, although just barely, instead of Vegeta seemingly to think of going to Yadrate seemingly out of nowhere. Which is honestly a trope you see all the time in fanfiction when the author forces a story point, but the story point is unnatural for the character that they give it to.

Pretty much. DB is Goku's story after all, but you can remove him from this arc and nothing would change. He's just stood around as a background piece for a good part of it, and the only idea Toyo decided to come up with for him was UI? Against someone who can just steal energy? Why didn't he have Goku try to find a counter solution to that. Y'know, Goku who tends to be very pragmatic with those sorts of things.

[Noitsnothim]

Anyone else feel like Vegeta could've stopped Moro from Absorbng Seventhree had he used Instant Transmission?

[DiscountDabi]

Anyone else feel like Vegeta could've stopped Moro from Absorbng Seventhree had he used Instant Transmission?

He could have just blasted the ship while he was flying up too

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

Let's be honest, common sense and dragon ball character's don't mix well sometimes. Vegeta probably wasn't thinking that far ahead, he probably just assumed he'd be able to kill Moro easily. He really should've killed Moro while monologuing, but alas it's Vegeta and he needed to rant about that villain and hell stuff.

[DiscountDabi]

My Best Hope for this Arc is that Vegeta does something similar to this and then Gamma Burst Flashes Moro to Hell.

https://imgur.com/ZRWPprW

[Miracles]

I wish the design didn't look like Perfect Cell. This is basically their way of saying, "Hey its Cell but not actually, just Moro and 7-3 together! Look how cool Moro is now as he just used his backup plan!" This is basically Cell without his spots and tail. given him Moro's fur coat, pants and 7-3's horns and gem.

Yeah. I just hate it cause it's ugly, secondly, It undermines Moro as the main opponent. Moro's personality and design is what we've been battling all this arc. He is at the forefront of what forced our protagonists to go and better themselves for the obstacles that he brought. The one with the eons of vendetta's against the Dai Kai and Galactic Patrol. That goat face that I've come to love and hate. Now it's a shove in the face of a villain who has established such a stage, taking a back seat to a character who is nothing more than his used minion.

Wow, you'd think that 7-3 wouldn't be so dominate in the fusion. Toyotaro's fanfic really came out with flying colors here. I highly doubt Toriyama himself would let something like this out of his store

I don't understand how 7-3 and Moro make Perfect Cell with Moro's features and a gem. I swear, Moro might as well call himself,"Perfect Moro". Since he has a knack for absorbing androids, he might as well go after 17-18 if he can't drain them. He's already Perfect Cell at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if Moro tried absorbing another person while like this.

I've seen worse, but it just looks like something I'd see while I'm browsing Deviantart and see one of those Super saiyan Oc's or those android Oc's that everyone makes. The fact that first form Janemba(the fat blob) looks more like a hellspawn than Moro says something, seeing as Moro does act like a demon and used to look like one until now.

I don't see Perfect Cell so much. But I do see the design as ugly. I doubt Toriyama drew this but I have no doubt that Toriyama let Toyotaro put it into the story. Toriyama has been telling Toyotaro to do his own thing for a while now. Especially if Toriyama really isn't writing the story. Even tho Toyotaro said he is teaming up with Toriyama on this arc and getting praise as he [Toyotaro] makes it [the story].

I just know that Toriyama's tastes are really good and he won't let something like this out and consider it as "cool."

[Lord Beerus]

No, that happened for other characters observing Vegeta.

You understand that other people believing Vegeta did enough to redeem himself doesn't mean Vegeta thinks that, right? You do realize Goku telling him that he was revived by Porunga because Porunga considered him good isn't just magically going to relieve any and all personal grievances, right?

That's not how redemption works. Vegeta didn't get baptized and automatically wash all of his problems away.

Well, unfortunately, that is basically what happened. Vegeta never carried any baggage from what happened after the Majin Boo arc, because the major casualties were negated. Vegeta learned his lesson, he became a person, and everyone moved on. It was there anytime to have some inward commentary about Vegeta's stance, it should have been before Battle Of Gods made it clear to the audience, and the character himself, are made aware of how much of a righteous person.

How about disqualifying Vegeta from the Super Saiyan God ritual because he wasn't considered a righteous person, or have Vegeta comment on whether he went to hell of heaven when Freeza blew up the planet in Resurrection F, or have Vegeta state that he plans on reviving Universe 6 with the Super Dragon Balls if he wins the Tournament of Power and have Freeza or Piccolo comment on why he's only caring about another universe and not taking into consideration about what he did in his own universe. All of those scenarios could have provided a great opportunity to explore Vegeta's moral ambiguity, as well how much he think about his pasts sins. It could have given some profound internal commentary, or at the least, provided some solid narrative foundation for Vegeta saying he's villain and he's bound for hell for what's done.

The idea that it's ever "too late" to atone is insincere in itself, and completely misconstrues what atonement is.

Whatever Vegeta would have wished for at the Tournament of Power is irrelevant because he didn't win the Tournament of Power. The Namekians are brought up now because Vegeta's current dilemma involves the Namekians. It is story convenience, but there's nothing wrong with that.

There is a lot wrong with his "atonement" stemming solely from plot convenience. Character development shouldn't stem from what the plot wants, it should from the character wants. And it ties back into my comment of being too late. In the 5+ years that Vegeta had to make up for all the horrible things he did as space pirate, he never even entertained that idea in the slightest. Hell, he finds himself attached to another universe, than caring more for the terrible shit he's done in his own universe.

This all reminds me so much of that episode of Bojack Horseman where Bojack decides to apologise to Herb for not supporting him when was outed as gay, and only apologises when he finds out he's dying of caner... 20 years later. This is a similar situation. It doesn't feel genuine, it doesn't feel earned, it just feels like something Vegeta is doing out of convenience and that the timing won't be any better.

This is what I mean when I say there's a whole lot of "completely lacking perspective and misunderstanding Vegeta" going on here.

That is exactly the kind of shit you say when you've spent the first several decades of your life committing mass murder, becoming a better person, and already feeling guilt just from killing a tiny fraction of those previous genocides at a tournament. Those are exactly the burdens someone like Vegeta would carry. That's exactly not something that people simply get over.

Vegeta's self-assessment and Piccolo's exposition both spell this out. Vegeta being a good guy isn't equivalent to Vegeta personally thinking he's "good enough". That's a bold move for the character that just so happens to align with his philosophy on growth and self-improvement.

I don't have a problem with Vegeta having self-doubt, the problem is complete lack of foundation there is for this kind of commentary. Dragon Ball has never been the kind of story to have characters angst over their terrible past. It's always been about characters moving forward and not letting the past define their future. Vegeta still believing he's no that much of better person than he was in the Majin Boo arc and taking his past deeds into account for whether he will go to heaven on hell is an interesting narrative concept, it's just too bad it had to happen in a story that:

a. Informed the character he is a righteous person
b. Has three sets of wish granting balls that could have been used at any given time to revive people en-masse
c. Provided zero context for Vegeta has any personal turmoil over his old life

Wanting to have character development in this fashion can't be done in a fleeting moment brought up in a few pages in a matter of pure happenstance. Tenshinhan killing himself to avenge Chiaotzu, Gohan defying Chi Chi orders to go to Namek, Goku sacrificing his life to prevent Cell from blowing up the planet, Vegeta nuking himself in a last ditch attempt to kill Majin Boo... these are all incredibly poignant and powerful character moments that worked so well because of the context the narrative previously provided in making moments like those seem to be a natural continuation and/or conclusion of personal development. Vegeta's personal assessment towards Moro doesn't work like those scenarios because the story never gave a single hint that Vegeta felt like this at any point after the Majin Boo arc.

Vegeta saying he's villain and is going to hell just comes across as a terrible blankest statement. It's arbitrary, hamfisted and contradictory.

[DiscountDabi]

Wait a second, why isn’t Moro Dead? He’s only survived this long because of the energy he’s absorbed. With Vegeta striping away Moro’s Energy, he shouldn’t have any left and should have died.

Man these plot holes.

[Miracles]

Wait a second, why isn’t Moro Dead? He’s only survived this long because of the energy he’s absorbed. With Vegeta striping away Moro’s Energy, he shouldn’t have any left and should have died.

Man these plot holes.

Moro does have his own energy too.

[Kagari]

No, that happened for other characters observing Vegeta.

You understand that other people believing Vegeta did enough to redeem himself doesn't mean Vegeta thinks that, right? You do realize Goku telling him that he was revived by Porunga because Porunga considered him good isn't just magically going to relieve any and all personal grievances, right?

That's not how redemption works. Vegeta didn't get baptized and automatically wash all of his problems away.

Well, unfortunately, that is basically what happened. Vegeta never carried any baggage from what happened after the Majin Boo arc, because the major casualties were negated. Vegeta learned his lesson, he became a person, and everyone moved on. It was there anytime to have some inward commentary about Vegeta's stance, it should have been before Battle Of Gods made it clear to the audience, and the character himself, are made aware of how much of a righteous person.

How about disqualifying Vegeta from the Super Saiyan God ritual because he wasn't considered a righteous person, or have Vegeta comment on whether he went to hell of heaven when Freeza blew up the planet in Resurrection F, or have Vegeta state that he plans on reviving Universe 6 with the Super Dragon Balls if he wins the Tournament of Power and have Freeza or Piccolo comment on why he's only caring about another universe and not taking into consideration about what he did in his own universe. All of those scenarios could have provided a great opportunity to explore Vegeta's moral ambiguity, as well how much he think about his pasts sins. It could have given some profound internal commentary, or at the least, provided some solid narrative foundation for Vegeta saying he's villain and he's bound for hell for what's done.

The idea that it's ever "too late" to atone is insincere in itself, and completely misconstrues what atonement is.

Whatever Vegeta would have wished for at the Tournament of Power is irrelevant because he didn't win the Tournament of Power. The Namekians are brought up now because Vegeta's current dilemma involves the Namekians. It is story convenience, but there's nothing wrong with that.

There is a lot wrong with his "atonement" stemming solely from plot convenience. Character development shouldn't stem from what the plot wants, it should from the character wants. And it ties back into my comment of being too late. In the 5+ years that Vegeta had to make up for all the horrible things he did as space pirate, he never even entertained that idea in the slightest. Hell, he finds himself attached to another universe, than caring more for the terrible shit he's done in his own universe.

This all reminds me so much of that episode of Bojack Horseman where Bojack decides to apologise to Herb for not supporting him when was outed as gay, and only apologises when he finds out he's dying of caner... 20 years later. This is a similar situation. It doesn't feel genuine, it doesn't feel earned, it just feels like something Vegeta is doing out of convenience and that the timing won't be any better.

This is what I mean when I say there's a whole lot of "completely lacking perspective and misunderstanding Vegeta" going on here.

That is exactly the kind of shit you say when you've spent the first several decades of your life committing mass murder, becoming a better person, and already feeling guilt just from killing a tiny fraction of those previous genocides at a tournament. Those are exactly the burdens someone like Vegeta would carry. That's exactly not something that people simply get over.

Vegeta's self-assessment and Piccolo's exposition both spell this out. Vegeta being a good guy isn't equivalent to Vegeta personally thinking he's "good enough". That's a bold move for the character that just so happens to align with his philosophy on growth and self-improvement.

I don't have a problem with Vegeta having self-doubt, the problem is complete lack of foundation there is for this kind of commentary. Dragon Ball has never been the kind of story to have characters angst over their terrible past. It's always been about characters moving forward and not letting the past define their future. Vegeta still believing he's no that much of better person than he was in the Majin Boo arc and taking his past deeds into account for whether he will go to heaven on hell is an interesting narrative concept, it's just too bad it had to happen in a story that:

a. Informed the character he is a righteous person
b. Has three sets of wish granting balls that could have been used at any given time to revive people en-masse
c. Provided zero context for Vegeta has any personal turmoil over his old life

Wanting to have character development in this fashion can't be done in a fleeting moment brought up in a few pages in a matter of pure happenstance. Tenshinhan killing himself to avenge Chiaotzu, Gohan defying Chi Chi orders to go to Namek, Goku sacrificing his life to prevent Cell from blowing up the planet, Vegeta nuking himself in a last ditch attempt to kill Majin Boo... these are all incredibly poignant and powerful character moments that worked so well because of the context the narrative previously provided in making moments like those seem to be a natural continuation and/or conclusion of personal development. Vegeta's personal assessment towards Moro doesn't work like those scenarios because the story never gave a single hint that Vegeta felt like this at any point after the Majin Boo arc.

Vegeta saying he's villain and is going to hell just comes across as a terrible blankest statement. It's arbitrary, hamfisted and contradictory.

Well said. I think some people want Dragon Ball to be something it's not... which is fine if you're writing a fan fiction or something, but the main series tends to stay fairly cemented in the concepts you described. Imagine if a future story focused on Gohan going after his dad for being absent all those years, and Goku having to reflect on those actions. It'd be just as out of place and nonsensical because it's just not something Toriyama's version of the characters ever held on to. But I'm sure there'd be people who like it, just as with this Vegeta angst.

[Dragon Wukong]

Well said. I think some people want Dragon Ball to be something it's not... which is fine if you're writing a fan fiction or something, but the main series tends to stay fairly cemented in the concepts you described. Imagine if a future story focused on Gohan going after his dad for being absent all those years, and Goku having to reflect on those actions. It'd be just as out of place and nonsensical because it's just not something Toriyama's version of the characters ever held on to. But I'm sure there'd be people who like it, just as with this Vegeta angst.

I might agree if the thought process for Vegeta felt shoe-horned or hamfisted, but it progresses naturally from Vegeta arriving onto Namek. It's well within reason that, IF Vegeta is a good guy now then he'd feel SOME level of guilt over what happened, and Moro arriving there offered the perfect opportunity to explore that, and this chapter was just a natural progression of that. To suggest that he should feel nothing would actually feel like regression to who he was before the Buu arc.

[Lord Beerus]

Well said. I think some people want Dragon Ball to be something it's not... which is fine if you're writing a fan fiction or something, but the main series tends to stay fairly cemented in the concepts you described. Imagine if a future story focused on Gohan going after his dad for being absent all those years, and Goku having to reflect on those actions. It'd be just as out of place and nonsensical because it's just not something Toriyama's version of the characters ever held on to. But I'm sure there'd be people who like it, just as with this Vegeta angst.

It's a classic case of looking for depth that was never there to begin with. Vegeta's character arc is over. It doesn't need to be revised, especially at this stage. Why can't fans just move on already?

If you want to add complexity to the storytelling of Dragon Ball, do it with a new cast. Because the current cast, creatively specially from a narrative sense, are beyond exhausted. Battle Of Gods was really the last time some of the original cast went through any significant exploration of their character that didn't feel like a dolled-up retread.

[The Undying]

this chapter was just a natural progression of that.

Not only was it a natural progression of that, it was progression for one of the most introspective and self-reflective characters in the original series. Toriyama wrote him that way, not Toyotaro.

Some people just want Vegeta to be someone he's not.

The reason Vegeta is acting this way now is because this is the first time he's been put in such a situation. It wouldn't make sense for him to think about his past crimes during either of the tournaments, or while fighting Broly.

Right, and while I find it absurd that what you posted even needs to be said, perhaps those divisive reactions illuminate exactly why Vegeta is one of the more compelling characters in Dragon Ball.

I think it would have been far more unnatural to give Vegeta such a prominent role in a story arc featuring the Namekian race without him having addressed it, so I see it as a risk more or less worth taking.

Well, unfortunately, that is basically what happened.

But that's not what happened.

There are scenes where Vegeta unequivocally expresses remorse for past misdeeds well after already being revived for becoming the "good guy". There are scenes where he not only doesn't hesitate to make up for prior atrocities, but even openly explains his act of atonement (like when he resurrected the Earthlings). There are even scenes of heavy introspection on Vegeta's part. It's all right there at the end of the Boo arc, so anyone claiming that this isn't an extension of that role is already arguing on logically shaky ground.

Vegeta carries baggage, even post-redemption. That's absolutely in-character, but he's also not the kind of person to just bring it up unless the situation prompts that kind of reaction. This is why his "story convenience" in the current arc is a necessity - characters, especially characters like Vegeta, don't bring up long-held grievances out of nowhere. They do so in response to specific stimuli.

Character development is quite literally dictated by the story, the circumstances of the plot, and the character's motivation in that story. Characterization without the story's facilitation is just as narratively out-of-place, vapid and as pointless as story without any characterization; we're not reading RP bios here.

How about *snip*

Yeah, how about that? I actually wouldn't have minded some of your ideas. I don't agree with disqualifying Vegeta from the God ritual, but I think even your best hypothetical examples illustrate why Super as a whole (and not necessarily the Moro arc in particular) often failed to capitalize on opportunities that could have further explored Vegeta's character.

As much as I thoroughly disagree with the prospect of Vegeta's progression coming "too late", I'd nonetheless say better late than never. We're talking about a character who received major development in every arc of the original series.

Having Vegeta stagnate is a disservice to Vegeta.

[TheNingen]

No, that happened for other characters observing Vegeta.

You understand that other people believing Vegeta did enough to redeem himself doesn't mean Vegeta thinks that, right? You do realize Goku telling him that he was revived by Porunga because Porunga considered him good isn't just magically going to relieve any and all personal grievances, right?

That's not how redemption works. Vegeta didn't get baptized and automatically wash all of his problems away.

Well, unfortunately, that is basically what happened. Vegeta never carried any baggage from what happened after the Majin Boo arc, because the major casualties were negated. Vegeta learned his lesson, he became a person, and everyone moved on. It was there anytime to have some inward commentary about Vegeta's stance, it should have been before Battle Of Gods made it clear to the audience, and the character himself, are made aware of how much of a righteous person.

How about disqualifying Vegeta from the Super Saiyan God ritual because he wasn't considered a righteous person, or have Vegeta comment on whether he went to hell of heaven when Freeza blew up the planet in Resurrection F, or have Vegeta state that he plans on reviving Universe 6 with the Super Dragon Balls if he wins the Tournament of Power and have Freeza or Piccolo comment on why he's only caring about another universe and not taking into consideration about what he did in his own universe. All of those scenarios could have provided a great opportunity to explore Vegeta's moral ambiguity, as well how much he think about his pasts sins. It could have given some profound internal commentary, or at the least, provided some solid narrative foundation for Vegeta saying he's villain and he's bound for hell for what's done.

The idea that it's ever "too late" to atone is insincere in itself, and completely misconstrues what atonement is.

Whatever Vegeta would have wished for at the Tournament of Power is irrelevant because he didn't win the Tournament of Power. The Namekians are brought up now because Vegeta's current dilemma involves the Namekians. It is story convenience, but there's nothing wrong with that.

There is a lot wrong with his "atonement" stemming solely from plot convenience. Character development shouldn't stem from what the plot wants, it should from the character wants. And it ties back into my comment of being too late. In the 5+ years that Vegeta had to make up for all the horrible things he did as space pirate, he never even entertained that idea in the slightest. Hell, he finds himself attached to another universe, than caring more for the terrible shit he's done in his own universe.

This all reminds me so much of that episode of Bojack Horseman where Bojack decides to apologise to Herb for not supporting him when was outed as gay, and only apologises when he finds out he's dying of caner... 20 years later. This is a similar situation. It doesn't feel genuine, it doesn't feel earned, it just feels like something Vegeta is doing out of convenience and that the timing won't be any better.

This is what I mean when I say there's a whole lot of "completely lacking perspective and misunderstanding Vegeta" going on here.

That is exactly the kind of shit you say when you've spent the first several decades of your life committing mass murder, becoming a better person, and already feeling guilt just from killing a tiny fraction of those previous genocides at a tournament. Those are exactly the burdens someone like Vegeta would carry. That's exactly not something that people simply get over.

Vegeta's self-assessment and Piccolo's exposition both spell this out. Vegeta being a good guy isn't equivalent to Vegeta personally thinking he's "good enough". That's a bold move for the character that just so happens to align with his philosophy on growth and self-improvement.

I don't have a problem with Vegeta having self-doubt, the problem is complete lack of foundation there is for this kind of commentary. Dragon Ball has never been the kind of story to have characters angst over their terrible past. It's always been about characters moving forward and not letting the past define their future. Vegeta still believing he's no that much of better person than he was in the Majin Boo arc and taking his past deeds into account for whether he will go to heaven on hell is an interesting narrative concept, it's just too bad it had to happen in a story that:

a. Informed the character he is a righteous person
b. Has three sets of wish granting balls that could have been used at any given time to revive people en-masse
c. Provided zero context for Vegeta has any personal turmoil over his old life

Wanting to have character development in this fashion can't be done in a fleeting moment brought up in a few pages in a matter of pure happenstance. Tenshinhan killing himself to avenge Chiaotzu, Gohan defying Chi Chi orders to go to Namek, Goku sacrificing his life to prevent Cell from blowing up the planet, Vegeta nuking himself in a last ditch attempt to kill Majin Boo... these are all incredibly poignant and powerful character moments that worked so well because of the context the narrative previously provided in making moments like those seem to be a natural continuation and/or conclusion of personal development. Vegeta's personal assessment towards Moro doesn't work like those scenarios because the story never gave a single hint that Vegeta felt like this at any point after the Majin Boo arc.

Vegeta saying he's villain and is going to hell just comes across as a terrible blankest statement. It's arbitrary, hamfisted and contradictory.

You've worded my own problems and thoughts on this magnificently. Much agreed.

[Kinokima]

The Vegeta line about being a villain and hell was one short scene and we are literally writing pages and pages about it

I do feel called out about the angst thing because I love angst lol but that moment with Vegeta was hardly what I would call angst and it’s barely even much of a self reflection.

It was basically Vegeta judging himself too harshly but still wanting to help others because he IS good now. That’s all there really is to it.

[HeroR]

No, that happened for other characters observing Vegeta.

You understand that other people believing Vegeta did enough to redeem himself doesn't mean Vegeta thinks that, right? You do realize Goku telling him that he was revived by Porunga because Porunga considered him good isn't just magically going to relieve any and all personal grievances, right?

That's not how redemption works. Vegeta didn't get baptized and automatically wash all of his problems away.

Well, unfortunately, that is basically what happened. Vegeta never carried any baggage from what happened after the Majin Boo arc, because the major casualties were negated. Vegeta learned his lesson, he became a person, and everyone moved on. It was there anytime to have some inward commentary about Vegeta's stance, it should have been before Battle Of Gods made it clear to the audience, and the character himself, are made aware of how much of a righteous person.

How about disqualifying Vegeta from the Super Saiyan God ritual because he wasn't considered a righteous person, or have Vegeta comment on whether he went to hell of heaven when Freeza blew up the planet in Resurrection F, or have Vegeta state that he plans on reviving Universe 6 with the Super Dragon Balls if he wins the Tournament of Power and have Freeza or Piccolo comment on why he's only caring about another universe and not taking into consideration about what he did in his own universe. All of those scenarios could have provided a great opportunity to explore Vegeta's moral ambiguity, as well how much he think about his pasts sins. It could have given some profound internal commentary, or at the least, provided some solid narrative foundation for Vegeta saying he's villain and he's bound for hell for what's done.

The idea that it's ever "too late" to atone is insincere in itself, and completely misconstrues what atonement is.

Whatever Vegeta would have wished for at the Tournament of Power is irrelevant because he didn't win the Tournament of Power. The Namekians are brought up now because Vegeta's current dilemma involves the Namekians. It is story convenience, but there's nothing wrong with that.

There is a lot wrong with his "atonement" stemming solely from plot convenience. Character development shouldn't stem from what the plot wants, it should from the character wants. And it ties back into my comment of being too late. In the 5+ years that Vegeta had to make up for all the horrible things he did as space pirate, he never even entertained that idea in the slightest. Hell, he finds himself attached to another universe, than caring more for the terrible shit he's done in his own universe.

This all reminds me so much of that episode of Bojack Horseman where Bojack decides to apologise to Herb for not supporting him when was outed as gay, and only apologises when he finds out he's dying of caner... 20 years later. This is a similar situation. It doesn't feel genuine, it doesn't feel earned, it just feels like something Vegeta is doing out of convenience and that the timing won't be any better.

This is what I mean when I say there's a whole lot of "completely lacking perspective and misunderstanding Vegeta" going on here.

That is exactly the kind of shit you say when you've spent the first several decades of your life committing mass murder, becoming a better person, and already feeling guilt just from killing a tiny fraction of those previous genocides at a tournament. Those are exactly the burdens someone like Vegeta would carry. That's exactly not something that people simply get over.

Vegeta's self-assessment and Piccolo's exposition both spell this out. Vegeta being a good guy isn't equivalent to Vegeta personally thinking he's "good enough". That's a bold move for the character that just so happens to align with his philosophy on growth and self-improvement.

I don't have a problem with Vegeta having self-doubt, the problem is complete lack of foundation there is for this kind of commentary. Dragon Ball has never been the kind of story to have characters angst over their terrible past. It's always been about characters moving forward and not letting the past define their future. Vegeta still believing he's no that much of better person than he was in the Majin Boo arc and taking his past deeds into account for whether he will go to heaven on hell is an interesting narrative concept, it's just too bad it had to happen in a story that:

a. Informed the character he is a righteous person
b. Has three sets of wish granting balls that could have been used at any given time to revive people en-masse
c. Provided zero context for Vegeta has any personal turmoil over his old life

Wanting to have character development in this fashion can't be done in a fleeting moment brought up in a few pages in a matter of pure happenstance. Tenshinhan killing himself to avenge Chiaotzu, Gohan defying Chi Chi orders to go to Namek, Goku sacrificing his life to prevent Cell from blowing up the planet, Vegeta nuking himself in a last ditch attempt to kill Majin Boo... these are all incredibly poignant and powerful character moments that worked so well because of the context the narrative previously provided in making moments like those seem to be a natural continuation and/or conclusion of personal development. Vegeta's personal assessment towards Moro doesn't work like those scenarios because the story never gave a single hint that Vegeta felt like this at any point after the Majin Boo arc.

Vegeta saying he's villain and is going to hell just comes across as a terrible blankest statement. It's arbitrary, hamfisted and contradictory.

Well said. I think some people want Dragon Ball to be something it's not... which is fine if you're writing a fan fiction or something, but the main series tends to stay fairly cemented in the concepts you described. Imagine if a future story focused on Gohan going after his dad for being absent all those years, and Goku having to reflect on those actions. It'd be just as out of place and nonsensical because it's just not something Toriyama's version of the characters ever held on to. But I'm sure there'd be people who like it, just as with this Vegeta angst.

I personally do find the question if Vegeta can go to heaven after everything is said or done, or is he’s just good enough to be reborn to be interesting. I also would like a story arc about a survivor of one of the many races Vegeta wipes out coming to make him answer for his past and Vegeta dealing with someone who has legitimate issues with him.

But such a subject matter would require a far better writer than Toyo. Toyo already took the easy way out on Namek by having the Namekians say ‘we don’t hold grudges’ instead of something to the extent ‘we know you change, but we can’t forget what you did’.

[Gogeta SSJ Blue]

Well, my opinion is that Vegeta talks too much!

He let Cell get stronger, let Golden Frieza blow up the planet and now just gave an opportunity to Moro recover too.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

Well, my opinion is that Vegeta talks too much!

He let Cell get stronger, let Golden Frieza blow up the planet and now just gave an opportunity to Moro recover too.

Yeah honestly, Vegeta legit went on and on and I'm like, he's still going? He legit monologues to the point Moro got the chance to use his backup plan.

[Matches Malone]

The Vegeta line about being a villain and hell was one short scene and we are literally writing pages and pages about it .

People at this point are just complaining about nothing. Toyotaro is unfortunately in a position where he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

It's a classic case of looking for depth that was never there to begin with.

What's wrong with that ? If an author has a story worth telling that's deeper than usual, then what's the issue with said story being told ? I don't see anyone complaining about the Future Trunks special, that was very different from the usual stories we got up to that point.

Wait a second, why isn’t Moro Dead? He’s only survived this long because of the energy he’s absorbed. With Vegeta striping away Moro’s Energy, he shouldn’t have any left and should have died.

Man these plot holes.

It's not a plot hole, Moro made a backup copy of his energy within 7-3, which is why he "fused" with him. Not only did he get his energy back, he also got 7-3's energy and ability.

DB is Goku's story after all, but you can remove him from this arc and nothing would change.

With a franchise as big as DB, Goku taking a back seat for ONE arc isn't going to hurt anything. Don't worry, the next arc will more than likely be very Goku focused. There's also the fact that the arc isn't over, so Goku could still play a very major role in it, maybe even taking down Moro with MUI, although I think that's being saved for later.