The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

[Cure Dragon 255]

I know there are many of these threads here on Kanzenshuu but something I saw in an extremely awesome and informative by Mr Vegetto EX himself concerning the hills and battles he's big on with Dragon Ball.

I know I've been regurgitating mine a lot over the years but I want to start by showing mine.

1-Dragon Ball is a kids show and it should be available to children

I really think children are the future and I think Dragon Ball belongs to them. I really hate this really lazy way Funimation shifted demographics to peddle a fun kids show to cynical adults. I think Pop and The CW were doing God's work of showing the show to the real demographic.

Masako Nozawa: There was one family who made a request. They wanted me to do a recording for a boy who was in a coma as the result of a car accident. It was like a miracle. When they played Son Gokou's (my) voice, he gave reactions to the voice. Gokou is just a picture, but he's always there for children who believe in him. Therefore, I also learned from my experience with Dragon Ball, that anime's power extends beyond pictures. It is bigger than anyone can believe. However, if you don't believe in it's power, then you won't be able to see it. A good work is defined by how much adults can appreciate it, along with kids, this is rare today. Basically anime should be made so that children can appreciate it too.

2-The edits that were made to the show arent the ultimate evil they are portrayed as. As long as there are uncuts I dont mind edits and neither should you.

Sure there was the extremely dark era where all that was available was the horrid Funimation dub without no actual way to watch the show uncut with or without subs. I really dont think kids care for the edits, I dont think they NEED the edits. The ones that need the edits are the censors of any given channel or network Broadcast Standards And Practices.

3-Despite all the above I think Dragon Ball dubs should be as faithful as possible.

I am a purist I dont believe Dragon Ball is inherently unmarketable to children in its original form. I think Nicktoons (And to a lesser extent Toonzai and Vortexx) despite all the edits proved a major point Chris Psaros a made long time ago. Kids didnt hate the Kikuchi score. Kids didnt get bored by it. KIds loved being treated like actual human beings and not being talked down to with corny jokes. Kids are smart and dont need to be coddled when it comes to anime. Kids will eat the show up NO MATTER WHAT so if you can make it close to the original make it so.

[ABED]

Dragon Ball is Goku's story and no DB series should be centered on the next generation.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Care to elaborate on that?

[ABED]

Sure. Dragon Ball is the story of Son Goku's journey to be the best martial artist he can be. A series set in the same world without him as the lead (aside from occasional one offs) won't have the same sort of resonance.

[Kunzait_83]

Mine are pretty obvious by now, but I'll throw them out here in a proper list regardless.

1) Dragon Ball is and has ALWAYS been from beginning to end a martial arts fantasy serial. Whether you want to call it Wuxia or not, Dragon Ball's core nucleus has always been ancient Chinese fantasy myths and stories about mastering the martial arts to literally god-like levels (and beyond). While the series obviously takes influence and inspiration from all sorts of modern and contemporary genres, including Western ones, the heart and soul of Dragon Ball above and beyond all of that has always been and continues to be rooted in Taoist mythology and in classic kung fu cinema storytelling.

Anyone who doesn't understand or grasp this is missing what is THE most important, key part of the series that makes it what it is and separates it well far apart from general "sci fi/action/superhero" stories as something altogether distinct and unique from those. This is what ultimately not only gives the series its very identity, but its what ultimately gives the story its whole center of gravity from which everything else stems from and revolves around. The sci fi aspects, while obvious and also prominent, are when all's said and done basically just surface level window dressing, and are in no way what the root of the narrative is ultimately bound to.

Anything Dragon Ball related that is missing these key ingredients would be Dragon Ball in name only.


2) Both the FUNimation dub and moreover its marketing (particularly in its first decade or so) has been the root of almost ALL of the most damaging aspects of Western mainstream Dragon Ball fandom. All the way down to the fact that my first point above is something that is in any way contentious or needs to be stressed in any way at all. It is VERY unique and in no way "normal" for the very baseline genre of a given work to be not simply a point of debate, but to be all but TOTALLY unknown and outright ignored, dismissed, and be totally misconstrued/mischaracterized by such a significant portion of the work's core fanbase at large. This is indicative of, and by no means the full extent of, the total rational disconnect that's at the heart of what makes most DB fan discourse such a frustrating and seemingly endlessly circular endeavor.

These problems go well beyond merely the series' basic genre identity, and go all the way down to details from basic characterizations of major characters and broadly major plot points, to granular, nitpicky details, and everything in between: all the way up to the constant fixation and obsessing over "Power Levels", which had always been prior to FUNimation an ABSURDLY minor point of the series even among its most diehard fans of the early/mid 90s. I can almost 100% guarantee that without a number of factors that were completely specific to FUNimation's handling of the series, the whole mania and subculture in DB fandom surrounding "Power Levels" would simply NOT have ever been a thing.

Any and every way you slice it or dice it, FUNimation's dub - and more importantly, its marketing and "brand image" for the series in its first decade+ - has been at the root cause of nearly all of the biggest misconceptions, mistakes, and fandom dysfunction that has marred and marked Dragon Ball in the Western/English speaking world since roughly the late 90s or thereabouts all the way up through to this very day.

Regardless of whether you personally enjoy it or prefer it, that has NO bearing whatsoever on the fact that it paints among the least accurate and most deliberately misleading popular images of the series and has done irreparable harm to its basic-most conception in the popular consciousness and to baseline-level discourse within its own core fanbase. This I would say is 100% iron clad, inarguable fact at this point, and goes well beyond mere personal preferences or taste.


3) Shonen isn't a genre. Shonen has NEVER, EVER been a genre. Shonen does not have "tropes" or "storytelling devices" or "themes" that are endemic to it. Shonen is nothing more than a simple target demographic/audience. All Shonen means is "this story was written, aimed at, and sold primarily to young boys of elementary school age". Anywhere from around roughly 5 to 13 on average. Shonen can encompass (and indeed very much has encompassed) literally ANYTHING and EVERYTHING from detective mysteries to sports dramas to slapstick screwball comedies to sci fi, horror, general action/adventure stories, and fantasy and so on and so on. Dragon Ball's genre is martial arts fantasy (or Wuxia if you like): Shonen is its target audience.

The idea of Shonen being its own genre with its own tropes is and has always been 100% a total fabricated invention of much, much latter day fans of DB and similar-such anime & manga titles circa the turn of the millennium: particularly in Western territories outside of Japan and Southeast Asia. This misconception/fabrication is predicated almost entirely around a total lack of basic historical awareness of wider anime and manga industry/artistic history beyond or outside of a certain and VERY narrow set of mega-popular Shonen titles of the last 25 to 30 years or so.: particularly those made in the wake of Dragon Ball attempting to copy/emulate it and cash in on its popularity.

Most of what people mistake for "Shonen genre tropes" (everything from arc-based villains, to secret fighting techniques that characters' scream out the names of, to lengthy training storylines, to themes of friendship and adventure, and so on) fall into one of three basic categories:

A) Broadly used martial arts fantasy storytelling tropes that DB (as a martial arts fantasy story) likewise made use of: i.e. secret/forbidden fighting techniques with fancy names, long training sagas, heated rivalries between fighters, and even things like various side/ancillary characters all gathered around watching and commenting on a major fight as it happens, etc. Fans aren't recognizing this stuff due to their ignorance of/inexperience with other martial arts stories outside of DB.

B) Are simply things more specific to DB itself that it helped popularize (and not even necessarily invent in all or most cases) that other Shonen franchises made afterward just blatantly copied simply to ride off of DB's coattails. Things like arc based villain story structure or "Sagas" and whatnot.

And C) Things that aren't even present within Dragon Ball itself all that much that most fans simply retroactively project onto it after the fact that are more prominent and more of a thing in other Shonen franchises made after DB had ended. Things like the focus around "friendship" and camaraderie and whatnot. Look all you want in DB, outside of maybe a couple of key moments, this stuff REALLY just isn't fucking there and never has been.

Fans are instead pulling this stuff almost entirely from their love for other Shonen properties like Naruto, One Piece, etc. (that are blatant knockoffs of DB in numerous other areas, but not this one) and retroactively projecting it onto DB: this seems to be partly helped along due to how much creators of those other works talk up their love for and influence by DB, and how much DB is marketed alongside those other properties by Weekly Shonen Jump/Toei/Shueisha and whatnot. People mass lump this stuff in together, even where it obviously doesn't apply across the board.

All of these things however are in NO WAY endemic or specific to Shonen as a broader whole, and NEVER have been, EVER at ANY point in anime & manga history. What most people in America/English speaking territories are largely most familiar with as "Shonen" (i.e. franchises like Bleach, Yu Yu Hakusho, Hunter x Hunter, Yu Gi Oh, Fairy Tail, Naruto, One Piece, etc.) actually in the grander scheme of things makes up an INCREDIBLY small, limited set of titles (albeit ones that sell like hotcakes and are VERY visibly popular) relative to the MUCH broader swath of stuff that has been and continues to this day to be published for and under the Shonen market.

Likewise, Shonen is FAR from the sole, only demographic that anime and manga are made under: Shojo, Seinen, and Josei are also things that do indeed exist and have had their share of massive hits and iconic, culturally significant titles (certainly in Japan at least) as well.

A certain audience (in this case, nerds across the United States and other English territories) not being intimately familiar with something is IN NO WAY the same thing as that very same something either not existing or not being relevant and prominent across other kinds of audiences elsewhere. See also: Wuxia, yet again. Basically, what you personally know and are most familiar with is NOT necessarily reflective of the broader world around you. Reality does not stop at, and indeed WELL far exceeds, your own personal/cultural periphery.


And of course everyone's favorite by now:

4) The contemporary Dragon Ball fanbase, alongside the broader contemporary anime fanbase, along with the broader contemporary "nerd culture" as a broader whole, has long, long, LONG by now had a MASSIVE fucking problem with moving their general sphere of interests past childhood favorite properties, and indeed past works that are made for and sold primarily/exclusively to children. This problem - which goes back well more than 15 years now, at least - extends further into an issue that many (again, NOT ALL, but a GREAT deal many) people have with forming any kind of interest in, and indeed any remote shred of basic intellectual curiosity for, works that are aimed at a mature, adult audience only.

Once again: there is NOTHING the LEAST bit wrong with a grown adult still liking and having a deep attachment and invested interest in some (key word, SOME) works made for/aimed at children. This only becomes a problem however when a grown adult is largely if not SOLELY focused on works that are made exclusively for children, and indeed is so much so that it genuinely hampers their ability to move their focus or interests on to other, more challenging works for an older audience.

This goes from an individual problem to a MUCH more concerning widespread issue when it isn't just a few people here or there, but when its a LARGE, sizable chunk of a fairly large, sizable mass of people. Which is where DB fandom (and indeed, anime fandom/ nerd culture more broadly) has been for well over a decade and change.

And again: I have ZERO interest what-so-fucking-ever in micro-policing people's individual tastes and preferences. That isn't what this is or has ever been about, and I cannot even begin to stress how much more clearer I can possibly make that point. This is about a much more broad, fandom cultural issue where the mass, overall aggregate of people have over the years OVERWHELMINGLY moved the needle of broad cultural focus and attention AWAY from genuinely mature, challenging works for an emotionally & intellectually developed audience, and instead over onto almost all but SOLELY works that are featherweight light entertainment for incredibly young, small children well early into their developmental stages.

This I would argue is a MUCH worse and FAR more damaging extreme than folks who never, ever engage with ANY kind of children's works but stick solely to works seen as the "highest of high brow" or whatnot. Those folks can, at the worst of times at least, be sometimes insufferably snobby and narrow-minded: I totally agree and am with that sentiment. The FLIPSIDE of those folks however - i.e. those whose focus is almost exclusively within the kiddie realm at the expense of more mature and challenging media - are something that is FAR more troubling and intellectually self-destructive in comparison.

And indeed, that flipside has long been for most of the 21st century thus far, been a MUCH bigger problem insofar as the mass cultural consciousness goes than some elitist, hoity-toity snoots who only swear by anything made before the 19th century or whatnot.

At the risk of going too far down this rabbit hole (that I once again REALLY need to get around to making its own, whole thread), I certainly think there's an element of this issue that's related and tied into a massive over-reactionary swing against the whole "animation age ghetto" in the West that folks in parts like this love to still wring their hands over.

Where people have rebelled SO hard against the idea that "All children's works, particularly animation, is inherently worthless" that they've worked themselves over into the exact reverse extreme: the idea that "children's works, particularly in animation, are the ONLY things that are of ANY worth at all". Which isn't just equally as wrong as the former wrongheaded extreme, it is I would argue FAR more fraught with MUCH deeper and vastly more damaging pitfalls.

Again though, that's a whole deeper convo. The point ultimately though is that this fanbase's deeper problems with challenging and further developing their adult minds and adult sensibilities with more mature art and subject matter rests at the heart of a LOT of (if not almost the ENTIRETY of) its other problems. Its the problem that's behind most - possibly all - of the other problems that have plagued this community for decades now, and its also a good deal of why most people in this community were unable to connect DB to its more Chinese/martial arts/Taoist roots, and also why so many are unable to move past an incredibly limited array of popular Shonen works and delve much deeper into older-skewing works of Japanese anime & manga (of which there are SUCH a dizzying, absurd amount of out there).

For a microcosm of what I'm talking about here: we all by now are long well aware of the crucial, important role that Journey to the West played in Dragon Ball's initial conception and influence. But honest question folks: how many of you here have actually sat down and READ Journey to the West? Not a synopsis or a Wikipedia entry or an essay about it: I mean how many of you have hunkered down and actually read the fuckin' books themselves, beginning to end? There are indeed English translations of it out there, and have long been for quite some time now. Indeed, how many of you have even ever once, even fleetingly, so much as thought to do so? I know that VegettoEX and Herms obviously have since quite some time ago: but what of the rest of you all?

Me personally, I must've done a complete read-through of it more than twice now: once when I was still fairly little (circa mid-1990s, via a rough, not at all ideal translation), and a second time in high school around 2000/2001 or so (MUCH better translation that time around). And I've been gradually/slowly working my way through it again presently off and on over the past several months now, making this at least my third full go-round with it. And that's hardly counting the many, many countless times throughout my life where I'd go back to favorite bits and read through notable sections in quick bursts.

No, I'm not trying to "flex" my literary chops here or what have you: what I'm saying is that, as someone who's read through it quite a few times now, I can certainly attest that there is a LOT in this story that would ABSOLUTELY and unquestionably hook in and appeal to a TREMENDOUS amount of adult-age, mature Dragon Ball fans. The idea that only the first arc (Pilaf) of DB is relevant to Journey to the West is and has always been complete and utter nonsense: not only are there still references to the books littered all throughout later arcs of the series (man will one specific stretch of JTTW make you look at the original Goku vs Tenshinhan Budokai fight in a WHOLE other light), but also just the very key, core, central themes and throughline of the story are almost a PERFECT match for one another.

At the end of the day, Son Goku and Sun Wukong are very much fueled by a strikingly similar motivation: constantly challenging and testing the upper limits of their strength and moving beyond it, through a seemingly never-ending gauntlet of increasingly bizarre, powerful opponents, many of whom are outright Eastern gods & deities, or roughly equivalent to them in power.

While there are constant interludes and asides/digressions in the story (including a lot of very beautiful, strikingly memorable poetry) Wukong, while a lot more mischievous and impish than Goku (at least Goku when he gets older: Kid Goku and Wukong are a pretty good match for one another in basic disposition) and certainly more outwardly intelligent, he is still VERY MUCH in the same general wheelhouse of martial arts fantasy protagonists as Goku is ultimately: that of a tireless wanderer, constantly seeking new challenges and meeting new and increasingly powerful teachers & opponents who can further raise the bar of his skills as a warrior.

And for as much as the story takes its time to set the tone, place, and mindset of various characters, there's still a LOT of actual fighting and action present as well: much if it VERY much every bit as over the top as anything you'll ever see in DBZ (and in some cases, arguably more so: some of the fighting techniques get positively out there). While it certainly has its luls (as any epic-length work is prone to), it is in its overall totality far, FAR from a dry read, especially for such an old, classical work.

So many of the concepts and setpieces within it are so one-of-a-kind unique and strikingly strange and surreal, that its frankly little wonder that it had grown to become such a cultural milestone and foundational work for COUNTLESS other fantasy stories for centuries to come, to this very day. Including the very one that we're all gathered together in this forum discussing.

While the first arc of DB is the one with the most outwardly blatant references to JTTW, they nonetheless share in many instances a remarkably similar creative DNA that is ever-present throughout the VAST overwhelming bulk of Dragon Ball (Toriyama's however is obviously WAY more irreverent and prone to taking the piss out of itself just for laughs, while JTTW is a lot more "straight-faced" about itself in comparison: nonetheless however, Wukong is indeed certainly a humorous little ball-buster in his own right).

And of course for all their baseline similarities, Journey to the West is of course made for a MUCH more mature audience, so there are MUCH deeper ideas and concepts, particularly related to Buddhist and Taoist philosophies, principals, and ideals, that are still delved into a great deal and present wonderful opportunities - particularly for a bunch of Westerners here with little to NO knowledge or exposure to any of this stuff - for people to learn more and become much better educated.

Hell, Wukong himself technically isn't even THE main character of the story: the traveling Buddhist monk Tang Sanzang (aka Tripitaka) is technically the nominal main character, who's search for a set of ancient Buddhist scriptures sets off and threads much of the story. Again: a quest for a set of mystical Chinese McGuffins that causes a civilized scholar and wild monkey martial artist to meet and from there helps spark the latter's never-ending quest to better himself as a fighter against a series of stronger opponents. Hmmmm....

What I'm saying here is, yes Dragon Ball is ultimately a dumb (if lovable and timelessly cool), fluffy little children's fantasy kung fu comic: but it has a wildly diverse array of artistic DNA threads that lead to all KINDS of other incredible, and awesome works that are FAR less dumb, fluffy, and childish in comparison: and Journey to the West is one of the biggest elephants (or great apes perhaps?) sitting flush in the middle of that particular room.

Imagine if we had the kind of adult fanbase who, instead of Dragon Ball functioning as their big gateway into other, similarly (if not increasingly) dumb, vapid Shonen action manga and that's where it all stops and ends, DB instead functioned as their gateway into first Journey to the West, then other Wuxia/martial arts fantasy media, and from there into all kinds of classic Chinese/Southeast Asian literature and film, etc.?

Imagine how WILDLY different this fanbase would be today if instead of constantly harping on about One Piece and Naruto in the same breath as DB and obsessing over merchandise sales figures and whatnot, we instead were all taking deep dives together into Chinese Taoist/martial arts literary themes across countless other similar works: many if not most not at all aimed at children or made primarily to move toy sales and keep a handful of gazillionaire investors happy?

I dunno: I've personally LONG thought for decades now that this fanbase, by obsessing so much over the most childish minutia of their (overall and largely) sheltered and insulated upbringings, has LONG been missing out on this MUCH more enriching, as well as vastly intellectually and emotionally healthy and constructive way of viewing and talking about even something as fundamentally silly and lightweight as Dragon Ball well into their adult years.

One of the most key, important things about children's media or art is that its made for a still DEVELOPING young mind: meaning that its supposed to function as a stepping stone towards greater and more rewarding things, not just be an endpoint unto themselves where a person's imagination stops dead at.

Anyways, those are my four big "Dragon Ball hills to die on". As I've certainly made plenty clear by now.

[JulieYBM]

Currently dying on the hill that Dragon Ball fandom needs to start poppin' some Estradiol and Spironolactone.

Also, English-speaking fandom needs to develop a better understanding of Otaku, animation and comics history to better understand the potential of the series going forward. Also, they need to do all that so I don't have to continually repeat myself any time I post.

Also dying on the hill that Movie #20 Broli should knock me up.

[Locust]

I guess my hill is - I can't blame people from looking at Dragon Ball from a Western perspective if they are Westerners, if you're not Japanese/Asian you can only really go by what you were raised in
But I have seen discussions about LGBT+ issues, race issues, etc - often with the focus of representation - within Dragon Ball and people dismissing it as "applying Western sensibilities to a Japanese series" as if there isn't LGBT Japanese people, as if there isn't racial issues in Japan. As if shonen manga has never ever talked about such topics - and frankly - it's embarrassing
You're humiliating yourself if you say shit like this so I'm almost begging people to get a grip and actually get a clue about the realities of modern Japanese society.

For a microcosm of what I'm talking about here: we all by now are long well aware of the crucial, important role that Journey to the West played in Dragon Ball's initial conception and influence. But honest question folks: how many of you here have actually sat down and READ Journey to the West? Not a synopsis or a Wikipedia entry or an essay about it: I mean how many of you have hunkered down and actually read the fuckin' books themselves, beginning to end? There are indeed English translations of it out there, and have long been for quite some time now. Indeed, how many of you have even ever once, even fleetingly, so much as thought to do so? I know that VegettoEX and Herms obviously have since quite some time ago: but what of the rest of you all?

I read it -
It's a very, very good story and absolutely everyone should read it at least once. It's a classic for a reason.
Read Journey to the West y'all.
It's been a hot minute since I read it, I really should do a re-read, so thanks for the push

[LoganForkHands73]

BIG OLD SNIPSNIP

Might wanna give your shift button a rest there, bud.

But honestly, I've come to agree with the final point especially. I went on a rant recently about how modern animation fans are always so intent on overselling their favourite kid-friendly properties to try and justify to themselves why they're so obsessed with them. We all loved Disney (EDIT: Not the company, but some of the films they've made in the past) and Pixar at some point in our lives, they have all produced great works of art... but they're not the be-all-end-all, especially not for animation. Fans get so insanely defensive of their childhood properties that they lose sight of themselves. The Gargoyles fanbase for instance seem to be under the impression it's a dark, adult drama and an undeniable fuck you to the Animation Age Ghetto, ignoring the patently obvious fact that it's a fucking dumb TMNT-esque action show about magic cartoon gargoyles coming to life and fighting crime in Manhattan, with a villain that builds a castle on his personal skyscraper. I can understand enjoying it, I can understand being a fan of it, but it's not deep, high art. There's no need to pretend it is! It's absolutely fine for it not to be! That may have sounded like a weird target, but I saw an article where someone was discussing why more emphasis should be put on the true artistic innovators in animation such as Jan Svankmejer and the writer dared to throw shade on Gargoyles, invoking the fanbase's wrath. I wish people would just accept things for what they are rather than trying to justify their hobbies and interests insincerely.

Your point about Journey to the West really hit me. I've only read excerpts of it at a museum, I've seen various other adaptations (Monkey Magic FTW lol) but it's a damn good point that I and many others haven't truly ever got the full experience with it. I'm equally guilty of overlooking this massive cultural phenomenon that heavily inspired the entire franchise this forum is dedicated to. I had a New Years Resolution to read more, so I'd better put it on the list.

The thing is, art is hard. Our culture has never been great at encouraging people to explore art beyond the popular consensus. The vast majority of people don't go out of their way to find music, film, literature etc with the intent to challenge or enlighten themselves. But modern western culture has deified nostalgic, child-friendly properties so much that people have convinced themselves they mean more than they do. I mean, kids who grew up in the '50s may have some nostalgic attachment to Muffin the Mule, but they don't pretend it was a deep show with secretly adult themes in the same way that 2000s kids (and adults) glorify, say, My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic. Both shows served the exact same purpose: to entertain little girls with pretty equine characters, nothing more.

[JulieYBM]

Might wanna give your shift button a rest there, bud.

But honestly, I've come to agree with the final point especially. I went on a rant recently about how modern animation fans are always so intent on overselling their favourite kid-friendly properties to try and justify to themselves why they're so obsessed with them. We all love Disney and Pixar, they have all produced great works of art... but they're not the be-all-end-all, especially not for animation. Fans get so insanely defensive of their childhood properties that they lose sight of themselves. The Gargoyles fanbase for instance seem to be under the impression it's a dark, adult drama and an undeniable fuck you to the Animation Age Ghetto, ignoring the patently obvious fact that it's a fucking dumb TMNT-esque action show about magic cartoon gargoyles coming to life and fighting crime in Manhattan, with a villain that builds a castle on his personal skyscraper. I can understand enjoying it, I can understand being a fan of it, but it's not deep, high art. There's no need to pretend it is! It's absolutely fine for it not to be! That may have sounded like a weird target, but I saw an article where someone was discussing why more emphasis should be put on the true artistic innovators in animation such as Jan Svankmejer and the writer dared to throw shade on Gargoyles, invoking the fanbase's wrath. I wish people would just accept things for what they are rather than trying to justify their hobbies and interests insincerely.

Greg Weisman--the show runner of the first two seasons--is kind of responsible for this. He's kept a slow drip of teases and fanbase interaction for decades that has essentially allowed a dead, mediocre cartoon from 199X to keep going and going. It's the Cult of World-building. Western fans--in my experience--tend to subscribe in vocal numbers to an ideology that 'world-building' is somehow integral to creating a work. Look at this very forum and all of the thread about world-building. Hell, look at that bitch J.K. Rowling and her dumb-shit tidbits that she makes up about Harry Potter after the fact. I mean, hell, Weisman drew up a huge in-universe timeline for Young Justice to work with and while that series was dead would slowly release tidbits to 'keep the dream alive'. I mean, I'm not necessarily one to talk considering I have my own 32+ page timeline for what I'd do if I ever had a chance to create my own DC Universe but that's mostly because my disabilities don't give me the focus to form a proper outline for a specific project.

I mean, kids who grew up in the '50s may have some nostalgic attachment to Muffin the Mule, but they don't pretend it was a deep show with secretly adult themes in the same way that 2000s kids (and adults) glorify, say, My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic. Both shows served the exact same purpose: to entertain little girls with pretty equine characters, nothing more.

The funny thing is, My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic is the series where you go in a cishet boy and either come out a bisexual trans woman or a fascist pig. I don't think Muffin the Mule can say anything similar.

[Kunzait_83]

But I have seen discussions about LGBT+ issues, race issues, etc - often with the focus of representation - within Dragon Ball and people dismissing it as "applying Western sensibilities to a Japanese series" as if there isn't LGBT Japanese people, as if there isn't racial issues in Japan. As if shonen manga has never ever talked about such topics - and frankly - it's embarrassing
You're humiliating yourself if you say shit like this so I'm almost begging people to get a grip and actually get a clue about the realities of modern Japanese society.

This times a billion.

These people are in the same exact wheelhouse as folks who complain that politics need to be kept out of all video games, comic books, anime, and nerd media, and insist that there's only been a RECENT push for putting political themes in nerd media... and within the same exact breath will then express their undying fandom for things like like Metal Gear Solid, X-Men, Akira, and so on.

Protip: Political themes have ALWAYS been present across a DIZZYING assortment of media, nerdy or otherwise, since literally forever and ever and ever ago, long before any of us were born. This isn't the least bit new or unremarked upon, and with some notable exceptions, they've ALWAYS typically tended to skew overwhelmingly Leftward overall. For the simple reason that Left-leaning political ideals tend to usually go hand with artists/creatives (again, some notable exceptions notwithstanding).

That some of you haven't noticed this until roughly the past 5 years or whatever has nothing to do whatsoever with there being a sudden wave of "SJWs" or what have you coming along and "ruining" everything, and more to do with you're being completely fucking clueless. Words like "embarrassing" and "humiliating" don't even come vaguely close to covering the sheer, overpowering levels of cringing stupidity these folks are openly and obliviously revealing about how little critical thought or basic, elementary observation of their own surroundings has been going on under the hood for them all this time up till now.

Japan, like EVERYWHERE else in the modern world, has political themes and issues raised across their media, nerdy/anime/gaming-centric and otherwise. Up to and including racial and LGBTQ issues. They ALWAYS have: yes, even in various Shonen stories. Turns out, little kids (both in Japan and elsewhere) consume media with political themes in them too, and have been right along all this time! Turns out, gay & trans people have always existed in Japan all this time as well, and have been written about and depicted extensively across their own media for literally DECADES now!

(Obligatory note for folks to check out an important/iconic 1969 Japanese film called Funeral Parade of Roses, a modernized Japanese take on the classic Greek tragedy Oedipus Rex that deals quite extensively with the Japanese LGBTQ counterculture of the time: its a personal favorite, and a milestone film for Japanese LGBTQ representation)

The only thing these folks are ultimately revealing is their own hideous, crushing degrees of ignorance about incredibly basic realities of the world around them that have been blindingly obvious to most of the rest of us for pretty much our entire lives.

I read it -
It's a very, very good story and absolutely everyone should read it at least once. It's a classic for a reason.
Read Journey to the West y'all.
It's been a hot minute since I read it, I really should do a re-read, so thanks for the push

[Locust]

That some of you haven't noticed this until roughly the past 5 years or whatever has nothing to do whatsoever with there being a sudden wave of "SJWs" or what have you coming along and "ruining" everything, and more to do with you're being completely fucking clueless. Words like "embarrassing" and "humiliating" don't even come vaguely close to covering the sheer, overpowering levels of cringing stupidity these folks are openly and obliviously revealing about how little critical thought or basic, elementary observation of their own surroundings has been going on under the hood for them all this time up till now.

Yes, I was really being nicer than I should be with my choice of words - this kind of attitude plays into the rather constantly infantilization of Japanese people - that "oh you know Japanese people, stuck on that island, they don't know the outside world, you can't get mad about problematic (or straight up bigoted) Japanese media, they just don't know teehee!"
It's just so fucking insulting, it's the modern day, we actually have the internet - Japan isn't a closed off fortress anime wonderland
It's also so belittling to the hard work activists in Japan do on the daily

It's infuriating

[JulieYBM]

It also goes to show just how little history about fandom is even known. 'Otaku'--which westerners have taken for themselves--refers to queer 'men', originally used as a slur for feminine 'men' and 'crossdressers'. Queers issues would appear to be at the very heart of Japanese animation, comics and game fandom.

Yeah, not getting off this hill, I guess.

[Kunzait_83]

But honestly, I've come to agree with the final point especially. I went on a rant recently about how modern animation fans are always so intent on overselling their favourite kid-friendly properties to try and justify to themselves why they're so obsessed with them. We all loved Disney (EDIT: Not the company, but some of the films they've made in the past) and Pixar at some point in our lives, they have all produced great works of art... but they're not the be-all-end-all, especially not for animation. Fans get so insanely defensive of their childhood properties that they lose sight of themselves. The Gargoyles fanbase for instance seem to be under the impression it's a dark, adult drama and an undeniable fuck you to the Animation Age Ghetto, ignoring the patently obvious fact that it's a fucking dumb TMNT-esque action show about magic cartoon gargoyles coming to life and fighting crime in Manhattan, with a villain that builds a castle on his personal skyscraper. I can understand enjoying it, I can understand being a fan of it, but it's not deep, high art. There's no need to pretend it is! It's absolutely fine for it not to be!

Gargoyles is certainly indeed a massive, massive central focal point for many of the folks that I'm talking about here and has been for a long, long time now. Similarly so is Batman: The Animated Series and the DCAU/Timmverse as a whole, which are likewise perfectly serviceable children's action shows that people have DRASTICALLY blown the fuck up into these be-all, end-all examplars of sophisticated adult storytelling and art... often without themselves in ANY WAY having done even a shred of time experiencing some actual for-real examples of sophisticated adult storytelling.

Anyways, this was all wonderfully, perfectly stated. Spot-on.

That may have sounded like a weird target, but I saw an article where someone was discussing why more emphasis should be put on the true artistic innovators in animation such as Jan Svankmejer and the writer dared to throw shade on Gargoyles, invoking the fanbase's wrath. I wish people would just accept things for what they are rather than trying to justify their hobbies and interests insincerely.

Certainly not at all a weird tangent, as like I said, Gargoyles has long been a constant go-to example of this sort of thing.

Anyway, shout out to the Jan Svankmejer namedrop: Svankmejer is without question one of the true all time greats in all of animation, and anyone who's never checked out his classic work is doing themselves a gargantuan fucking disservice. His 1988 Alice in particular is easily one of my absolute, all time favorite Lewis Carroll adaptations (for as much shit as I give children's media as a broader whole, Carroll's original Alice books are indeed some of my absolute most dearly beloved, favorite children's literature of all time), certainly head and shoulders infinitely superior to Disney's various cracks at it over the years in both animation and live action.

I have a near complete collection at this point of almost every major Svankmejer film and a great deal of his shorts too: he's one of the greatest talents in all of animation history, and its fucking criminal that so many purported animation enthusiasts have either never heard of him at all or refuse to take any real look into his work.

Your point about Journey to the West really hit me. I've only read excerpts of it at a museum, I've seen various other adaptations (Monkey Magic FTW lol) but it's a damn good point that I and many others haven't truly ever got the full experience with it. I'm equally guilty of overlooking this massive cultural phenomenon that heavily inspired the entire franchise this forum is dedicated to. I had a New Years Resolution to read more, so I'd better put it on the list.

Awesome! Really glad to hear!

The thing is, art is hard. Our culture has never been great at encouraging people to explore art beyond the popular consensus. The vast majority of people don't go out of their way to find music, film, literature etc with the intent to challenge or enlighten themselves. But modern western culture has deified nostalgic, child-friendly properties so much that people have convinced themselves they mean more than they do. I mean, kids who grew up in the '50s may have some nostalgic attachment to Muffin the Mule, but they don't pretend it was a deep show with secretly adult themes in the same way that 2000s kids (and adults) glorify, say, My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic. Both shows served the exact same purpose: to entertain little girls with pretty equine characters, nothing more.

This is all sadly all too accurate, and lies at the heart of a lot of this.

The funny thing is, My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic is the series where you go in a cishet boy and either come out a bisexual trans woman or a fascist pig. I don't think Muffin the Mule can say anything similar.

This I would argue has much less to do with anything deeper going on in MLP (it ain't there), and much more to do with how utterly beyond broken and emotionally stunted an entire recent generation of young people have been left by totally gutted social institutions that have collectively completely fucking failed them at almost every level.

MLP is indeed little more than just a dumb, vapid, empty and hollow little girl's magic pony show: its whole "Brony" phenomenon is a by-product of MUCH darker and more gravely serious societal failures horrifically impacting various swathes of young people who've been left grotesquely unequipped and unprepared (both practically and emotionally) to deal with the realities of the world and their own internal problems (so much so that they're left clinging to a dumb, empty, vapid pony cartoon for emotional solace and support rather than actual family or friends), not anything the least bit "special" about the show itself.

[Thanos]

Dragon Ball is Goku's story and no DB series should be centered on the next generation.

This 100%! I was always put off by all the ideas people had of the torch truly being passed to Gohan after Cell. Like, I'm just going to say it... Gohan is kind of boring. I like the character, but he doesn't even have much of a personality aside from "BAD THING HAPPENS, I'M ANGRY!" or "STUDYING GOOD", at least not enough of one to carry a series like Dragon Ball. Aside from the Saiyaman stuff, he's too much of a straight man and too worldly and intelligent to carry the series. Goku is very much an extension of the universe--ultimately goofy and his sensibilities just fit that perfectly.

[LoganForkHands73]

Greg Weisman--the show runner of the first two seasons--is kind of responsible for this. He's kept a slow drip of teases and fanbase interaction for decades that has essentially allowed a dead, mediocre cartoon from 199X to keep going and going. It's the Cult of World-building. Western fans--in my experience--tend to subscribe in vocal numbers to an ideology that 'world-building' is somehow integral to creating a work. Look at this very forum and all of the thread about world-building. Hell, look at that bitch J.K. Rowling and her dumb-shit tidbits that she makes up about Harry Potter after the fact. I mean, hell, Weisman drew up a huge in-universe timeline for Young Justice to work with and while that series was dead would slowly release tidbits to 'keep the dream alive'. I mean, I'm not necessarily one to talk considering I have my own 32+ page timeline for what I'd do if I ever had a chance to create my own DC Universe but that's mostly because my disabilities don't give me the focus to form a proper outline for a specific project.

I mean, kids who grew up in the '50s may have some nostalgic attachment to Muffin the Mule, but they don't pretend it was a deep show with secretly adult themes in the same way that 2000s kids (and adults) glorify, say, My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic. Both shows served the exact same purpose: to entertain little girls with pretty equine characters, nothing more.

The funny thing is, My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic is the series where you go in a cishet boy and either come out a bisexual trans woman or a fascist pig. I don't think Muffin the Mule can say anything similar.

JK "TERF" Rowling can keep both her in and out-of-universe "tidbits" to herself.

I can appreciate the imagination that goes into creating these fictional cartoon universes but as you say, it shows that these are primarily shrewd business decisions designed to create comforting, money-spinning properties with dedicated cult followings. It works almost every time. The problem is that it has led people to conflate "deep" worldbuilding with genuine maturity.

Muffin the Mule basically encapsulates what most kids' TV is: an unconvincing horse marionette prancing to dank piano tunes in front of a camera for ten minutes. "It ain't much but it's honest work." Don't know if it affected people's sexuality or views on societal regimentation, I'll have to get back to you on that one...

[JulieYBM]

This I would argue has much less to do with anything deeper going on in MLP (it ain't there), and much more to do with how utterly beyond broken and emotionally stunted an entire recent generation of young people have been left by totally gutted social institutions that have collectively completely fucking failed them at almost every level.

MLP is indeed little more than just a dumb, vapid, empty and hollow little girl's magic pony show: its whole "Brony" phenomenon is a by-product of MUCH darker and more gravely serious societal failures horrifically impacting various swathes of young people who've been left grotesquely unequipped and unprepared (both practically and emotionally) to deal with the realities of the world and their own internal problems, not anything the least bit "special" about the show itself.

I don't know anything about My Little Pony. My only interactions with it are seeing a few snippets on TV when my niece was younger, owning a cute bishoujo Pinkie Pie (gosh, I'm gay) and reading bimbofication erotica. The visuals and audio are not pleasing to my eyes and ears. If it somehow helps people, I don't really care. I'm not being forced to interact with the series and Christ, my medical bills, cell phone bill and general lack of having any money to my name is far more distressing to me in this moment.

On the subject of Bronies, which I understand simply to be male fans of the franchise, I don't see the issue. It's none of my business to be telling men how to define and operate the parameters of their gender, even if I think the franchise is poorly constructed and wholly unimpressive. A big piece of what helped me with my gender during a difficult time in my life was Hugtto! PreCure, in which I got to see a loving lesbian relationship between two characters that embodied aspects of myself I kept buried and even a gender non-conforming (and likely trans fem) character, all while the main character raised a baby, fought her husband from the future and then had said baby twelve years in the future. If My Little Pony helps some men (and closeted trans women) come to terms with who they are somehow it's really none of my business to say otherwise.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EbNE8eSUcAc ... &name=orig

[VegettoEX]

I appreciate the comparisons and enthusiasm, but let's do try to keep it within the scope of and tangentially related to Dragon Ball / Toryiama fandom as much as we can. Thanks!

(And, yes, read Journey to the West. Read books.)

[Kunzait_83]

It also goes to show just how little history about fandom is even known.

English-speaking fandom needs to develop a better understanding of Otaku, animation and comics history

Julie, I'll always have your back 1000% whenever any knuckle-dragging transphobes slime their way out from under their rocks and try to start shit with you (or any other LGBTQ members of this community): but all due respect, and at the risk of coming across as "mansplaining" here or whatnot, I would also strongly suggest that you perhaps maybe heed some of your own advice a bit more on this particular matter.

Not trying to be an ass here or anything: just saying as a word of legitimately friendly advice that there's definitely and without a doubt still an awful LOT about Otaku/anime fan culture history that you yourself seem to have some noticeably glaring blind spots about that are also fairly relevant and important to many of the Feminist and LGBTQ-centric issues that you're (totally understandably and justifiably) focused on.

[JulieYBM]

Apologies for the tangent.

Uh...yeah, I'm also going to die on the hill of even 1990s Yamamuro Tadayoshi being kind of a Hashtag Bad Choice for being a leading animator for the series. Yamamuro corrected others too much even then and his own animation isn't particularly spectacular. Dragon Ball really had too many lines going on. Drawings might make for pretty stills but to load down movement and restrict animation techniques is kind of lame. Dragon Ball's animation as a whole really felt like it was losing steam outside of the odd Hisada, Tate or Shimanuki fight and that definitely became a reality in the movies and Majin Buu arc.

Also, yikes, Dragon Ball GT's fights (aside from Baby Gohan versus Vegeta) were really bad. I don't think storyboard artists really had much steam left in them at that point but I also can't think of any big name action directors at Toei Animation at the time that could have replaced them. Meanwhile, you have all the wild shit that Yuu Yuu Hakusho was doing at the time, combined with Ninku and some other titles. Older Dragon Ball really doesn't age too well in that respect. That said, one can say the same thing about relying on Shida Naotoshi as much as modern Dragon Ball but at least modern Dragon Ball has also tried to get other good animators to provide their battles.

I dunno. Maybe Dragon Ball just sucks balls? *Three Stooges noises*

[Polyphase Avatron]

I don't see what's wrong with liking 'kids' media. The following quote comes to mind:

“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

- C. S. Lewis

Anyway to get back on topic, I think the memes coming from the various dubs and fan works are mostly fine, and not the horrible scourge some people like to paint them as. ('Over 9000' got old fast, though).