Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

[JulieYBM]

I can’t imagine that there would’ve been very many trans actors in places like New York or Texas back in the late 90s/2000s. Maddie Blaustein seems to have been the exception, and as far as I know, she was mostly cast as male characters.

Come to think of it, how common are trans anime characters anyway? I would assume that Japan probably wouldn’t be very sympathetic to the transgender community.

Lily from Zombie Land Saga is the character that immediately comes to mind. She literally dies and becomes a zombie because her gender dysphoria from facial hair shocks her. It's a gag that if handled inappropriately could really come off as tasteless but going off what little of the series I've seen--ADHD is a bitch--the Lily character seems to be handled with a lot of care from a purely writing-level. I mean, hell, I'd have probably written something similar since facial dysphoria really is just that scary.

As I mentioned before, there's the very transphobic scene from Yuu Yuu Hakusho, too, where main character Yuusuke sexually assaults the transgender woman Miyuki.

Hunter x Hunter also has a trans character in Alluka, Killua's younger sister. She is constantly deadnamed and misgendered by anyone not Killua.

All three are played by cis women. I'm sure there are other anime out there I'm forgetting about, too.

There are also a lot of anime or series with trans-coded characters, like Pretty Cure. Dirty Pair (1985) also had a trans character, albeit she was a one-off character.

For Kamen Rider Wizard there was a trans-coded character named Kamimura Yuu played by KABA-chan. After the series KABA-chan came out as a trans women herself.

I'm sure that I'm missing a lot of trans characters, too. Keep in mind, though, that cis authors are so often poor at understanding queer issues--especially for us trans folks--that they wind up just appropriating our aesthetics for cis characters.

Queer people exist both inside and out of Japan. Queer Japanese people are still fighting the same battles we fight in the US for representation and rights. In Japan a trans woman cannot change her legal gender to properly reflect her real gender until she has had gender affirmation surgery. The thing is, not all trans women want gender affirmation surgery. Some times hormone is enough, some times a trans person doesn't want either, they want only to socialize and present as their gender. Trans people and non-binary people are valid, no matter how they present or what their medical history is and to codify the necessity of surgery just goes to show not only the ignorance of cisgender people but also the obsession cisgender people have with the trans body.

[Locust]

Queer people exist both inside and out of Japan. Queer Japanese people are still fighting the same battles we fight in the US for representation and rights. In Japan a trans woman cannot change her legal gender to properly reflect her real gender until she has had gender affirmation surgery. The thing is, not all trans women want gender affirmation surgery. Some times hormone is enough, some times a trans person doesn't want either, they want only to socialize and present as their gender. Trans people and non-binary people are valid, no matter how they present or what their medical history is and to codify the necessity of surgery just goes to show not only the ignorance of cisgender people but also the obsession cisgender people have with the trans body.

Quick addition - not just trans women. Trans men too.
In addition, you are not allowed to be married (if already married, you need to get a divorce) or have kids under 20 if you want to legally change gender in Japan

[JulieYBM]

Queer people exist both inside and out of Japan. Queer Japanese people are still fighting the same battles we fight in the US for representation and rights. In Japan a trans woman cannot change her legal gender to properly reflect her real gender until she has had gender affirmation surgery. The thing is, not all trans women want gender affirmation surgery. Some times hormone is enough, some times a trans person doesn't want either, they want only to socialize and present as their gender. Trans people and non-binary people are valid, no matter how they present or what their medical history is and to codify the necessity of surgery just goes to show not only the ignorance of cisgender people but also the obsession cisgender people have with the trans body.

Quick addition - not just trans women. Trans men too.
In addition, you are not allowed to be married (if already married, you need to get a divorce) or have kids under 20 if you want to legally change gender in Japan

Ah, I kind of figure that would be the case, too, but since I'm trans fem I didn't want to speak about something I haven't had the chance to dig into.

Also, Jesus fucking Christ, that is so disgusting. Goddamn motherfucking perverted asshole bastard rat-fucking shit stains.

[Locust]

Ah, I kind of figure that would be the case, too, but since I'm trans fem I didn't want to speak about something I haven't had the chance to dig into.

Also, Jesus fucking Christ, that is so disgusting. Goddamn motherfucking perverted asshole bastard rat-fucking shit stains.

I get that, I just wanted to bring it up since trans men are so often left out of conversations - I know you didn't purposely do that I know you're not the type to do that - just wanted to give more info

Yeah it's a real shitshow -
Since gay marriage is also illegal in Japan (there's partnership certificates for same sex couples in certain areas but they don't mean anything legally, it's just a symbolic thing...) that's why people can't get married/have to divorce
And the whole "you might confuse a child/be a bad parent if you change gender! So wait until they're an adult" - bleh

Real awful stuff, but if there's any glimmer of hope - my generation, and younger generations - are more accepting of LGBT+ people, so we can only hope things change for the better ASAP

[JulieYBM]

Ah, I kind of figure that would be the case, too, but since I'm trans fem I didn't want to speak about something I haven't had the chance to dig into.

Also, Jesus fucking Christ, that is so disgusting. Goddamn motherfucking perverted asshole bastard rat-fucking shit stains.

I get that, I just wanted to bring it up since trans men are so often left out of conversations - I know you didn't purposely do that I know you're not the type to do that - just wanted to give more info

Yeah it's a real shitshow -
Since gay marriage is also illegal in Japan (there's partnership certificates for same sex couples in certain areas but they don't mean anything legally, it's just a symbolic thing...) that's why people can't get married/have to divorce
And the whole "you might confuse a child/be a bad parent if you change gender! So wait until they're an adult" - bleh

Real awful stuff, but if there's any glimmer of hope - my generation, and younger generations - are more accepting of LGBT+ people, so we can only hope things change for the better ASAP

Aaah, yeah, no, I just meant that at a line of clarification for others, not you specifically.

But yeah, ugh, mega yikes. I really hope things change for Gender, Sex and Romance Minorities soon.

[Melee_Sovereign]

This is how cisgender people wind up play trans characters, telling our stories and getting accolades--while presenting as their own gender--and being seen and associated with roles.

1. Gender and race aren't the same thing. One is a biological thing that actually exists, and the other is a social construct.

2. Actors aren't creators of the story. They're not "telling" your story. They're acting it out. If you're concern is an understanding of transgender people going into the work, your concern would lie more with the writer and director, and maybe several consultants on the project, not the actor (this can vary obviously).

Are you concerned with whether Sean Schemmel or Masako Nozawa are martial arts experts? Should Matt Damon have actually gotten a Ph.D in botany before playing a botanist in The Martian? Should women stop playing boy children because, well they're not boys and don't understand anything about being a boy growing up? I mean jeez, the entire hallmark of acting is to play something you're not! That's why its called acting! You're playing a role!

3. The logic wouldn't work out in reverse. My guess is you wouldn't want transgender voice actors being only confined to playing transgender characters. You wouldn't want black voice actors being confined to only playing black characters. No one batted an eye when a black guy, Christopher Judge played Kratos from God of War, but god forbid a white woman, Laura Bailey plays Nadine Ross from Uncharted (who also played Kid Trunks, a boy).

4. I did say "for the most part". Meaning sometimes there's an obvious advantage to getting an actor to play a character they share commonalities with (this point is more of an extension of 2). However, its a case-by-case thing.

[Super Sonic]

A big reason non-LGBT actors get awards for playing LGBT characters is because there's a bias in Hollywood awards to give them to showier roles. You can substitute "Most" for "Best" and you have the biggest criterion for how performances are judged.

Was going to also say voice wise if Funimation started casting J. Michael Tatum and David Wald as only flamboyant ambiguous characters, even though neither of them are the flamboyant gay type, it'd be like bad typecasting.

[JulieYBM]

This is how cisgender people wind up play trans characters, telling our stories and getting accolades--while presenting as their own gender--and being seen and associated with roles.

1. Gender and race aren't the same thing. One is a biological thing that actually exists, and the other is a social construct.

2. Actors aren't creators of the story. They're not "telling" your story. They're acting it out. If you're concern is an understanding of transgender people going into the work, your concern would lie more with the writer and director, and maybe several consultants on the project, not the actor (this can vary obviously).

Are you concerned with whether Sean Schemmel or Masako Nozawa are martial arts experts? Should Matt Damon have actually gotten a Ph.D in botany before playing a botanist in The Martian? Should women stop playing boy children because, well they're not boys and don't understand anything about being a boy growing up? I mean jeez, the entire hallmark of acting is to play something you're not! That's why its called acting! You're playing a role!

3. The logic wouldn't work out in reverse. My guess is you wouldn't want transgender voice actors being only confined to playing transgender characters. You wouldn't want black voice actors being confined to only playing black characters. No one batted an eye when a black guy, Christopher Judge played Kratos from God of War, but god forbid a white woman, Laura Bailey plays Nadine Ross from Uncharted (who also played Kid Trunks, a boy).

4. I did say "for the most part". Meaning sometimes there's an obvious advantage to getting an actor to play a character they share commonalities with (this point is more of an extension of 2). However, its a case-by-case thing.

1. A) Remember how a White man played a Black man as the lead of his own series? B) Yet trans people (of all races) and Black people (cis or otherwise) are still murdered for their gender or race.

2. I can hold the millionaire actor accountable for agreeing to take the role of a trans person, to tell stories about the lives trans people live--which are more often than not the stories where we all suffer, get raped and die.

Your career-related argument is in no way comparable. Martial arts is a thing people do, it's not an immutable piece of who they are, nor do you have fucking martial artists getting for being Black or being a Black trans woman. Where's Matt Damon being bullied into committing suicide because he's a goddamn botanist?

3. A White actor playing a Black character? Yikes. A Black actor playing a White character? Cool by me, as I previously mentioned in the thread. The 'White victim of minority progression' narrative is creepy as fuck.

[Melee_Sovereign]

1. A) Remember how a White man played a Black man as the lead of his own series? B) Yet trans people (of all races) and Black people (cis or otherwise) are still murdered for their gender or race.

What does this have to do with who gets to play certain roles?

2. I can hold the millionaire actor accountable for agreeing to take the role of a trans person, to tell stories about the lives trans people live--which are more often than not the stories where we all suffer, get raped and die.

Not every actor is a millionaire (certainly not voice actors). And again, actors are not telling the story. They're acting out a role. The writer is telling the story. The actor is just the actor.

Your career-related argument is in no way comparable. Martial arts is a thing people do, it's not an immutable piece of who they are, nor do you have fucking martial artists getting for being Black or being a Black trans woman. Where's Matt Damon being bullied into committing suicide because he's a goddamn botanist?

All the same, the concern is whether the actor has an understanding of the type of character they are playing. The argument is perfectly compatible.

3. A White actor playing a Black character? Yikes. A Black actor playing a White character? Cool by me, as I previously mentioned in the thread. The 'White victim of minority progression' narrative is creepy as fuck.

Not sure what the bolded means, but this whole statement is a double-standard.

[MyVisionity]

3. A White actor playing a Black character? Yikes. A Black actor playing a White character? Cool by me, as I previously mentioned in the thread. The 'White victim of minority progression' narrative is creepy as fuck.

Not sure what the bolded means, but this whole statement is a double-standard.

White actors voicing Black characters is the opposite of minority progression. There's no "double standard" here. Or at least not one that matters.

[JulieYBM]

What does this have to do with who gets to play certain roles?

It means they're immutable things about a person. They're real. They're what lead to cis peoples' discrimination, sexual assaulting and murdering of us. How and who portray minorities in media is important.

Not every actor is a millionaire (certainly not voice actors). And again, actors are not telling the story. They're acting out a role. The writer is telling the story. The actor is just the actor.

That comment is in reference to the individual examples I named but sure, I'll also die on the hill that struggle White cis actors can fuck off if they want to take minority roles.

You get positive change through by being critical of people. Don't single out the actor, I'm critical of everyone involved all the way up to the jackass executive that cuts the checks.

All the same, the concern is whether the actor has an understanding of the type of character they are playing. The argument is perfectly compatible.

No it is not. Mayama Ako and Laura Bailey (whom I'm sure are a lovely people otherwise) doesn't know what it's like to have her womanhood not simply questioned but outright refuted because of her genitalia. Eddie Redmayne doesn't know what it's like to feel like a complete stranger in his body, his social life and his life in general. It's performing trans-ness¹ as opposed to a trans person performing a character.

¹'Trans-ness' literally means anything. There's no set definition of what it means to perform being trans. All types of trans people are valid, this is just a phrase to try to get across an idea.

Not sure what the bolded means, but this whole statement is a double-standard.

It means stop acting like cishet White people are being victimized here for the simplest of push-back at their playing the roles of marginalized people as opposed to those roles going to those same marginalized people.

[WittyUsername]

For all this talk about representation, it does beg the question, should disabled characters be required to be played by people with those very disabilities? For example, Mike Henry stepped down as the voice of Cleveland from Family Guy, due to not being black, but no one ever seems to bring up that Joe Swanson is not voiced by a paraplegic, or that Peter Griffin is not voiced by a plus sized individual.

I mean, last week when Mike Henry stepped down from his role, there were some tweets that mockingly suggested that Patrick Warburton should also step down, but I haven’t seen any serious calls for such a thing.

[ABED]

No it is not. Mayama Ako and Laura Bailey (whom I'm sure are a lovely people otherwise) doesn't know what it's like to have her womanhood not simply questioned but outright refuted because of her genitalia. Eddie Redmayne doesn't know what it's like to feel like a complete stranger in his body, his social life and his life in general. It's performing trans-ness1 as opposed to a trans person performing a character.

I get your point, and casting agents should put more effort into seeking out actors that aren't just straight white people, but knowing what something feels like is not a prerequisite for ANY role. It's called acting for a reason. Sometimes actors will have overlapping experiences with their characters but many don't. That's also part of the joy of being an actor - getting in the shoes of another person.

[Melee_Sovereign]

How and who portray minorities in media is important.

You cross that bridge when you get to it, not before it. (The bridge being the audition sessions)

You don't decide ahead of time who is right for the role. Well I mean you could, but you'll run into problems that way.

No it is not. Mayama Ako and Laura Bailey (whom I'm sure are a lovely people otherwise) doesn't know what it's like to have her womanhood not simply questioned but outright refuted because of her genitalia.

They don't necessarily need to understand. They're the actors. The need for understanding largely lies with the writers and directors.

Also, I'm not aware of Laura Bailey playing a transgender. I was pointing out that she played an African woman.

It means stop acting like cishet White people are being victimized here for the simplest of push-back at their playing the roles of marginalized people as opposed to those roles going to those same marginalized people.

I'm not acting like they're victimized. I'm acting like I disagree with the logic intrinsically, regardless of who's a victim and who isn't.

[Melee_Sovereign]

White actors voicing Black characters is the opposite of minority progression. There's no "double standard" here. Or at least not one that matters.

All double standards matter. And that's not the opposite of progression. That's literally just someone getting the job because they're qualified for it.

[Locust]

White actors voicing Black characters is the opposite of minority progression. There's no "double standard" here. Or at least not one that matters.

All double standards matter. And that's not the opposite of progression. That's literally just someone getting the job because they're qualified for it.

We don't live in a meritocracy
Not everyone gets a job because they're the most qualified

I'm gonna just quote myself here -

I don't have stats for voice acting in particular, but it's pretty well known that people with "ethnic", "Black", etc sounding names - that can affect whether or not they even get an interview, due to racial biases

The book Freakonomics went into this some, and if you google around, you'll find quite a lot of articles about this

Link me to those articles, please.

https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-w ... interviews
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... rimination
https://www.raconteur.net/hr/ethnic-name-bias
https://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html

and many many more can be found if you do a quick search

Obviously, the ideal would be that everyone has a level playing field and can just get a job based on their own skills - but that's not reality

[JulieYBM]

For all this talk about representation, it does beg the question, should disabled characters be required to be played by people with those very disabilities? For example, Mike Henry stepped down as the voice of Cleveland from Family Guy, due to not being black, but no one ever seems to bring up that Joe Swanson is not voiced by a paraplegic, or that Peter Griffin is not voiced by a plus sized individual.

I mean, last week when Mike Henry stepped down from his role, there were some tweets that mockingly suggested that Patrick Warburton should also step down, but I haven’t seen any serious calls for such a thing.

I don't know anything about that specific character but I do know that if you want to tell a story about a disabled person actually consulting a disabled person is the first step. A good consultant is going to be the person actually doing the performing. Abled people making jokes about disabled people is not funny or entertaining.

No it is not. Mayama Ako and Laura Bailey (whom I'm sure are a lovely people otherwise) doesn't know what it's like to have her womanhood not simply questioned but outright refuted because of her genitalia. Eddie Redmayne doesn't know what it's like to feel like a complete stranger in his body, his social life and his life in general. It's performing trans-ness1 as opposed to a trans person performing a character.

I get your point, and casting agents should put more effort into seeking out actors that aren't just straight white people, but knowing what something feels like is not a prerequisite for ANY role. It's called acting for a reason. Sometimes actors will have overlapping experiences with their characters but many don't. That's also part of the joy of being an actor - getting in the shoes of another person.

Trans people are specifically passed up on these roles because they "don't look trans enough". This #Thespians bullshit culture is in part built upon the fact that all the people with power want to portray us as old white men in dresses.

The whole system is rigged.

[Melee_Sovereign]

We don't live in a meritocracy

Its more of a meritocracy than it isn't.

Not everyone gets a job because they're the most qualified

I'm talking about a situation where someone DOES get the job because they're qualified.

but it's pretty well known that people with "ethnic", "Black", etc sounding names - that can affect whether or not they even get an interview, due to racial biases

This is wrong and it shouldn't happen. You solve this by getting rid of it directly, not by implementing some double-standard as some murky way of counter-balancing it. That's just asinine, and counterproductive to say the least.

In a sense, its an attempt to solve it by continually putting black people in a box, which is just gonna propagate more racism.

Obviously, the ideal would be that everyone has a level playing field and can just get a job based on their own skills - but that's not reality

This is reality. Most of the time. People do get the job because of merit. Most of the time.

But because its not all the time, that some how makes it wrong when people do get the job because of merit. If you attack people who do get the job because of merit, because racism also exists, you are attacking the wrong thing.

[ABED]

I think the people in charge need to take a step back and rethink their decision making process. On Fatman Beyond, Marc Bernardin brought up a statistic that the length of time between a female director's first and second film is three times as long as men's first and second movies. It's not because they are more discerning in their choices for projects. I don't think it's necessarily malicious but very often a small pool of talent gets a good number or roles because they have connections and or a track record. And even if they fail, they are given more chances at bat. Patty Jenkins passed on Thor 2 even though it would've been a HUGE deal because she didn't like the script and if she messed it up, it wouldn't just set her career back, but fewer women would get such an opportunity because "see we let a woman direct a big action blockbuster and look what happened." I don't know all the answers and I don't think decisions like diversity should be based on quotas and box checking, but I think people in power should stop for a second and take an honest look at their assumptions.

[Locust]

Its more of a meritocracy than it isn't.

Need proof of that, cause as a minority that sure as hell ain't my experience

This is wrong and it shouldn't happen. You solve this by getting rid of it directly, not by implementing some double-standard as some murky way of counter-balancing it. That's just asinine, and counterproductive to say the least.

In a sense, its an attempt to solve it by continually putting black people in a box, which is just gonna propagate more racism.

Affirmative action (using the generalized meaning of the word rather than the specifically American meaning) is an attempt to give minorities equal footing - how is that a double standard?
To be frank, this line of argument sounds like the tired old "these minorities just want special treatment, if they just worked harder they could get to where the majority is!"
I'm sure that's NOT what you mean but that's the vibe I'm getting

I do not agree with bullshitty diversity hires.
That is not a way to progress - that making real humans into statistics, based on their ID. That's quite dehumanizing in it's own way.
What I simply want is a more honest discussions about racism within various industries. I do not see how suggesting casting agencies look at people from more diverse backgrounds is a wrong thing. I'd really like to understand.

This is reality. Most of the time. People do get the job because of merit. Most of the time.

Perhaps your reality. I don't know what race you are. What your gender is. What your sexuality is. But these all have impact on how the world treats you.

But because its not all the time, that some how makes it wrong when people do get the job because of merit. If you attack people who do get the job because of merit, because racism also exists, you are attacking the wrong thing.

I'm not attacking anyone?
I want casting agencies to have a look at their policies, if they're making their industry really an open and welcoming place