Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Sadala Elite
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sadala Elite » Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:09 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:01 pm
They are not natural as in non-biological. Kaioken is a technique not a transformation, and UI is something that transcends the self
How is Ultra Instinct non-biological? The power Goku uses in that form comes from himself. Whether or not UI "transcends the self" is irrelevant. You're pulling weird headcanons out your ass to justify the idea that fusions by default are stronger than the user's strongest form. Please, please pull up some actual evidence of that statistic. At least pull up a Daizenshuu statement or anime quote or something that supports your argument, because you're saying all this stuff to backup that fusion idea with 0 weight or proof behind it. The fact that UI is a non-voluntary limit breaker power suggest that it isn't natural like the SSJ forms
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:01 pm
SSB doesn't have the same stamina problem in the anime as it does in the manga
Well, first of all, you're outright wrong on Blue's stamina issue being exclusive not being in the anime, if you read my post and bothered to take a 5 second google.

Image

This scene was from the tournament to explain why Goku wasn't using Super Saiyan Blue at that time. It's also brought up later, when Super Saiyan God comes back. So, what gives? Are you going to tell me Whis is wrong now? Please, tell me again that Goku just used Blue against Kale because? I don't know? Some reason you pulled out your ass instead of an actual statement in the series?
Goku & Vegeta has NEVER been shown to suffer major fatigue from using SSB in the anime, they were constantly shown spamming the form with no consequence, especially the in ToP, where Vegeta could still use SSBE even after his self-destruct attack lmao
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:01 pm
and you failed yo address the main point that Goku didn't receive any major damage from Berzerk Kale
Since when was that a main point? And Kale was tossing Goku around ragged and charged through his Kamehameha? yet the fact that Goku took no major damage from her suggest she ain't SSB level in Berzerk The main point was that Whis' statement confirmed that Goku wouldn't have used Super Saiyan Blue unless he had to. Yet later episodes prove that she he didn't have to (unless he got some post-Omen boost after the hour special)
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:03 am
Yet Mastered Berzerk/SSJ2 Kale in so.113 explicitly stated/shown as a power increase compared to Berzerk, which SSJ2 Goku could hold off in that same episode.
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:01 pm
If you accept that SSB Goku wasn't going all out against Berzerk Kale then it isn't a contradiction at all, simple
It's a contradiction either way, because Whis says Goku was pacing himself and not using Super Saiyan Blue unless necessary. No it isn't because him using SSB against her already has a built-in explanation either way, you are just in denial But I guess you didn't watch the entire arc or something, because you don't seem to know (and outright deny) that that was a thing.yet there's not a single instance in the anime where stamina issues from SSB are a thing of consequence, unlike the manga
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:01 pm
Berzerk Kale was seen as threat in the anime mostly because she was outta control, not so much because of strength (the fact that SSJ2 Goku could hold her off in ep.113 proves that
Which again, goes against Whis' statement on Goku's usage of Blue in the tournament.
No it doesn't. The fact that you cling to Whis essentially irrelevant statement which is never proven by shown events speaks volumes
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:01 pm
Completely missed the point of the argument lmao
No one is going to understand the point of your argument if you're tossing invalid statements inside it. You didn't even respond with what the point of your argument was.
Learn 2 read bro lpl
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:01 pm
You just contradicted your earlier paragraph about the promotional manga.
??? When? I said most promotional content makes it into the volumes. Resurrection F's promotional manga didn't because it's not considered part of the Super manga. You keep making vague statements about how I "missed the point" or "contradicted myself" and you don't explain your reasoning at all. So why should I take you seriously?
You clearly seem to fail basic logic smh
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:01 pm
They were wrong for the same reason, because Beerus never said in any version that Goku absorbed the form itself
Absorbing the strength of the form, followed by the form not appearing for nearly 100 episodes gives a pretty clear vision of what was originally intended to be the case. They never had any reason to use SSG in the anime prior to the ToP, so your argument is weak here. At no point before the ToP anime di they fight character thats stronger than SSJ3 but notably weaker than SSB. And the fact that Goku & Vegeta's bases were constantly shown to be >>>>>Z even after the Black arc shows how wrong you are
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:01 pm
and still are lol
If you say so lol
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:01 pm
Where's the contradiction? Source?
It's various little things throughout Super. Base form Goku/Vegeta having any level of trouble with opponents who end up being dealt with by far less powerful people in Super, like the sniper that ended up being taken out by Tien. They weren't even going all out in base, weak argument bro lolOr Goku needing to use any transformation against Trunks, who only had access to SS2 and was never said to have another power-up (like Gohan's justification) until midway through the arc. This is a fallacy. SSJ2 Trunks in Super is NOT Buu-arc SSJ2 level in power. This is a Trunks that had 10+ years of training after getting rid of Future Dabura (and we all know how in Super characters get massive off-screen power-ups from training lol) You can disagree, but these are inconsistencies for some people.
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:01 pm
False. You're forgetting how Base Goku early in the ToP arc was able to match Fit Buu (the strongest Buu ever). That wouldn't be possible if "Saiyan-Beyond God" wasnt a thing anymore
Sure, and you have a point there, but Buu's strength since his fission from Kid Buu has been a point of vagueness anyhow. You're definitely pulling "strongest Buu ever" out your ass if you think Buu was stronger than when he absorbed Ultimate Gohan though.You are pulling BS out of your ass if you think Fit Buu is weaker than Buuhan. If Base Goku in DBS is only where he was in the Buu arc then Fit Buu should have flicked him easily, and if Fit Buu was weaker than Buuhan then Saiyan-Beyond God Goku should have easily flicked. So your argument fails either way, Base Goku vs Fit Buu only makes sense if both characters are far beyond their Z selves
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:01 pm
The only you think it was retconned is that you don't like the idea that 90% of the ToP fodder would solo Z by scaling
Since I'm getting to that point later, I may as well point out that this is an ad hominem.
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:01 pm
That's literally the same explanation, you're argument sounds so dumb lol


Saying those explanations are the same thing is saying "Saiyan Beyond God" is the same thing as Super Saiyan God. But ok if you want to say I'm the one who's dumb without reading back what the image actually says, you're free to do so.
Yes, your argument is dumb lol. Arguing that "the power of SSG" in RoF doesn't refer to the SSG transformation itself is dumb. Arguing that SSB is just "SSJ1 with God ki" is REALLY dumb lol
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:01 pm
You failed to point out any Ad hominems in my previous post.
Well if you want me to do it now, this is the ad hominem statement I was referring to in my previous post.
Sadala Elite wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:39 pm
Your whole view seem to be based on you simply not liking the idea of base Goku/Vegeta being that strong at all and being in denial, without any real logic or proof.[/b]
Thats not an Ad hominem lol

So, ultimately, I don't think you actually paid attention when watching Dragon Ball Super (if you did you would address Whis' statements in the tournament, which you still haven't). Yet Whis' statement failed to be validated by the sequence of events shown in the anime, a fact that you fail to see. If character statements don't match what is actually shown or are never backed up in any credible way then they are false. If Whis were to say "Goku is a deer" in an episode that doesn't make it fact since we can clearly see that it's a false claim lol.

In addition to that, you ignore any valid points or concerns brought up in an argument to tout your personal, baseless headcanons as facts Youre projecting lol, and you attempt to discourage and shutdown any valid argument with "You only think this way because you want it to be this way." Mind you I'M the one pulling up quotes, using episodes, statements and pulling up multiple fight examples to justify my arguments. Your only response is and continues to be "You're wrong because I say it is." to justify the statement "base form fusions are always stronger than the strongest form" when as far as I can tell, that was never stated in any medium. Please, provide some evidence that that statement has any backing, and isn't just something you wish is true.
https://pm1.narvii.com/6789/9384a27c622 ... 4v2_hq.jpg

There also the fact that there hasn't been a single Base Saiyan fusion that wasn't portrayed as being stronger than their individual half's best natural form.


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Dragon Wukong
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:10 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
The fact that UI is a non-voluntary limit breaker power suggest that it isn't natural like the SSJ forms
You realize that Super Saiyan was originally non-voluntary as well, right? And that Goku literally just began learning how to tap into Ultra Instinct at will? You know, the same way he did with Super Saiyan? Which Goku said he struggled to do at will at first too? So what new statement are you gonna pull out your ass to try and justify that "Ultra Instinct doesn't count" for me to contradict?
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
Goku & Vegeta has NEVER been shown to suffer major fatigue from using SSB in the anime, they were constantly shown spamming the form with no consequence, especially the in ToP, where Vegeta could still use SSBE even after his self-destruct attack lmao
So? Regardless of what feats show, we're told through the story's expositionary piece that, again. 1. Uses up stamina. And 2. Is only being used by Goku as needed. You have yet to address Whis' statements. If your response is "well their feats in the tournament seems to contradict that," then my response is "well Whis in the same arc contradicts that."
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
yet the fact that Goku took no major damage from her suggest she ain't SSB level in Berzerk
I never said that it showed she was SSB level, the most obvious thing to gather from that fight is that Super Saiyan God wasn't enough, which was my original damned point. Keep up.
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
Yet later episodes prove that she he didn't have to (unless he got some post-Omen boost after the hour special)
That's the only way you can justify it, but the episodes make it explicit that Goku's actually weaker than he was at the start of the tournament during that period because of his fatigue. So the only way you can actually justify it is acknowledging that it's an inconsistency.
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
No it isn't because him using SSB against her already has a built-in explanation either way, you are just in denial
What "built-in" explanation are you referring to exactly? How is me using statements from the arc as basis for my argument me being "in denial"? You're the one who sounds kiiiiinda in denial, saying Whis, the guy who's been training them who only really exists as an expository piece is somehow wrong.
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
yet there's not a single instance in the anime where stamina issues from SSB are a thing of consequence, unlike the manga
Which makes it more inconsistent that "SSB has stamina issues" is something that's been stated in the anime ever since the U6 tournament arc, and is repeated twice more in the Tournament of Power. Just because the effects aren't generally shown, doesn't mean the anime didn't make it clear that those effects still exist. Anyhow, the fatigue is noted when Goku uses Kaioken on top of it in both arcs.
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
No it doesn't. The fact that you cling to Whis essentially irrelevant statement which is never proven by shown events speaks volumes
"Irrelevant statement" lol
"never proven" lol
Ok so statements made within the series by characters with authority on relevant topics don't matter to you. It's good to know your arguments don't actually matter then lol
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
Learn 2 read bro lpl
Learn to relay information bro lmao
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
You clearly seem to fail basic logic smh
If you say so. Most other people with eyes seem to agree that Resurrection F's promotional manga isn't in Dragon Ball Super volume 1 though. Or any Dragon Ball Super volume for that matter.
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
They never had any reason to use SSG in the anime prior to the ToP, so your argument is weak here. At no point before the ToP anime di they fight character thats stronger than SSJ3 but notably weaker than SSB. And the fact that Goku & Vegeta's bases were constantly shown to be >>>>>Z even after the Black arc shows how wrong you are
By your same logic that "they never had any reason to use SSG in the anime prior to the ToP," they never had any reason to use SSG in the ToP lol. Literally every opponent that Goku used Super Saiyan God against, except Caulifla (and the weird inconsistency with SS2 Kale), was SSB tier. Or are you going to suggest that Frieza shouldn't have had to use his Golden form against Dyspo? Or that Hit should never have struggled against Dyspo in the first place? Not to mention the times he chose to use SSG against Jiren or (in a particularly unnecessary case) Anilaza. It would have honestly been fine for Goku to use SSG against Zamasu at the very least, who was likely above SS3 but still weaker than SSB Goku.

Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
They weren't even going all out in base, weak argument bro lol
If you want to say so. But this was already mid-way through the tournament and Goku had already gone Blue several times, so being "slow-to-start" isn't really a valid excuse in this instance.
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
This is a fallacy. SSJ2 Trunks in Super is NOT Buu-arc SSJ2 level in power. This is a Trunks that had 10+ years of training after getting rid of Future Dabura (and we all know how in Super characters get massive off-screen power-ups from training lol)
That would make Trunks the only Saiyan/Earthling who got a god-tier level power-up exclusively from training, which suspends some level of disbelief. You could be right, MAYBE Trunks is just as strong as a "Saiyan Beyond God" now for absolutely no reason. But other people can just draw my conclusion that it's an inconsistency with how strong Goku's base form is. OR people can just assume he was using SS3 but "held back" the same way he did against Krillin. Either way, it's far from being a fallacy as you describe.
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
You are pulling BS out of your ass if you think Fit Buu is weaker than Buuhan. If Base Goku in DBS is only where he was in the Buu arc then Fit Buu should have flicked him easily, and if Fit Buu was weaker than Buuhan then Saiyan-Beyond God Goku should have easily flicked. So your argument fails either way, Base Goku vs Fit Buu only makes sense if both characters are far beyond their Z selves
If you say so lol
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:09 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:01 pm
The only you think it was retconned is that you don't like the idea that 90% of the ToP fodder would solo Z by scaling
Since I'm getting to that point later, I may as well point out that this is an ad hominem.
May as well take a moment again to say that you didn't comment on this bit. I caught your response attacking my opinions (ones made-up by you mind you) instead of my position and reasoning, and since it makes you look bad you'd rather just ignore it. Well too bad, I'm not so kind as to just let that slip by.
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
Yes, your argument is dumb lol. Arguing that "the power of SSG" in RoF doesn't refer to the SSG transformation itself is dumb. Arguing that SSB is just "SSJ1 with God ki" is REALLY dumb lol
You didn't seem to read the image. So let me read it back to you.

"It is said that Saiyans can gain control of god-like power without changing form." This refers to "Saiyan Beyond God," and not the Super Saiyan God transformation. Pay special note to the statement "god-like power without changing form." "But if those god-like Saiyans change into Super Saiyans, then the power of Super Saiyan God SS is born!" This suggests that in Resurrection F, the original intention was Super Saiyan God SS replaced Goku and Vegeta using Super Saiyan entirely, while all the power from Super Saiyan God remained with them in their base form.

"Saiyan Beyond God", as well as the mechanics of SSGSS itself were slowly retconned through Super. It's not the Super Saiyan form someone who attained the power of Super Saiyan God in base anymore, (which, if you can't read, that image makes very clear was once the case,) now it's just Super Saiyan on top of Super Saiyan God.
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:39 pm
Your whole view seem to be based on you simply not liking the idea of base Goku/Vegeta being that strong at all and being in denial, without any real logic or proof.
Thats not an Ad hominem lol
You attempted to discredit my arguments on the grounds of me "not liking the idea of base Goku/Vegeta being that strong" instead of a proper debate against my position. That's an ad hominem.
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
Yet Whis' statement failed to be validated by the sequence of events shown in the anime, a fact that you fail to see. If character statements don't match what is actually shown or are never backed up in any credible way then they are false. If Whis were to say "Goku is a deer" in an episode that doesn't make it fact since we can clearly see that it's a false claim lol.
If you say so lol
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
Youre projecting lol
Given all the evidence to the contrary, I don't think I am? Well, if you say so, I must be. You're just so right about everything else.
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
https://pm1.narvii.com/6789/9384a27c622 ... 4v2_hq.jpg

There also the fact that there hasn't been a single Base Saiyan fusion that wasn't portrayed as being stronger than their individual half's best natural form.
First of all, literally nothing in that image supports your argument. The only thing stated is that Vegito was stronger than a Super Saiyan 3. Nothing in that image states or even suggests that it's a blanket case for fusions that "the base form of a fusion always surpasses the strongest form of the user."

There's also the fact that you're wrong (lol,) because Gogeta's base form isn't stronger than Ultra Instinct Goku, as well as the contradiction with Kefla.

Anyways, if you want to continue being a douche when discussing this topic, go right on ahead and I can respond in kind. You continue to bring nothing to the table of any weight or value for debate, and you continue making up new headcanons and continue discrediting statements within the series to justify your position as well. Feel free to keep going.

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Koitsukai
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:44 pm

DBZ Macky wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:41 am
Similarly, if Goku was really getting overpowered by Kale, he should've used the Kaio-Ken.

Goku can go from getting hurt from bullets to being able to damage Blue tier opponents. In his Base Form, he can injure Hit and tank Sidra's Hakai Energy that even Golden Freeza had trouble handling.
I always felt Kale was showing a glimpse of the potential Kefla would get access to later, not mentioning it was a blatant wink to M8. Jiren with no effort put her down, while real SSB level characters required a little more from Jiren. Also the "recton" her power got, pretty much ranked her below SSG. So if I were to drop one scene in order to make sense of Toei's mess, it'd be the M8 nod one.
The manga makes Kale actually reach blue level for real, so it seems Toei went a different route while including Toriyama's outline. The whole thing is a mess in both media because Kale's fusion ends up being a match for Gohan...
DBZ Macky wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:41 am

There are only two explanations that make sense to me:

1. Goku and Vegeta (without the God forms) aren't actually much stronger than their Buu era counterparts, but are able to contend with God tier opponents by the sheer difference in skill. This is supported by the fact that this is the literal explanation given in the Anime when Base Goku fights on par with SS2 Caulifla, who herself was fighting on par with SS2 Goku earlier.

2. Goku and Vegeta are much stronger than almost everyone even in their Base forms. The only reason they might appear weaker is because they actively handicap themselves. Why? Either to save stamina, or to actually enjoy a fight since they are in an awkward position where they're much stronger than the lower tiers like Gohan, Piccolo etc. while being much weaker than the higher tiers like Jiren and the Gods.

There's no middle ground, pick your poison.
I would have to say the 1st option is definitely for the manga, there is nothing implying their bases are crazy (except for Vegeta who in SS2 can beat up SS Black who in base surpasses SS3 Goku... good one Toyo)

While the 2nd one is for the anime up until the FT arc where SS2 Trunks is a match for SS2 Goku. Before, the base saiyans were clearly on a league of their own, although U6 arc puts every enemy on the SS vecinity but you could make a case saying they are actually that strong, way stronger than Z saiyans. Just because it sounds crazy stupid doesn't mean it can't be.

Goku still has some crazy feats after FT arc, you mentioned resisting a hakai energy in his base for a long time, he fought Fit Buu (he'd had to be above Z SS2 level for that), and in his tired base form took on SS2 Caulifla, and then as a tired SS2 fought SS2 Caulifla and SS Kale at once. I would say Toei took their bases down a notch, less Toei-y and more like the manga, not as weak, but not as strong as before either.

--

And regarding Gogeta and UI, Goku didn't have access to it, he still doesn't (except Sign) so I don't see a problem there.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:31 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:44 pm
And regarding Gogeta and UI, Goku didn't have access to it, he still doesn't (except Sign) so I don't see a problem there.
Fair enough point. But I highly doubt that the second Goku unlocks UI at will it'll mean Gogeta/Vegito in their base forms are suddenly stronger than it as well. I just don't understand why someone would tout that line of reasoning as though it's some absolute fact, where to deny it makes one "stupid."

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by miguelnuva1 » Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:04 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:31 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:44 pm
And regarding Gogeta and UI, Goku didn't have access to it, he still doesn't (except Sign) so I don't see a problem there.
Fair enough point. But I highly doubt that the second Goku unlocks UI at will it'll mean Gogeta/Vegito in their base forms are suddenly stronger than it as well. I just don't understand why someone would tout that line of reasoning as though it's some absolute fact, where to deny it makes one "stupid."
The fusions so far have all gotten lucky that the fusion base power exceeds the fusees highest form used.

In the same argument however depending on the continuity rules you could argue

Blue kkx20 and SSBE>Gogeta base> SS Blue.

You can also argue that while Fusion and Potara now have the same multiplier as they were stated equal trump cards Gogeta's base is made from Blue as that is Goku and Vegeta's highest equal form,

Where as Vegito's base would be made from SSBE and UI sign as Vegito's base just takes the max avaible power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:11 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:06 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:16 pm
You are on point in that. The AxB logic, as far as I remember, only works on the fusions between Goku and Vegeta, because they make a perfect balanced fusion. Kibito and Shin don’t have that chemistry. Maybe not even Goten and Trunks. But I think you can get the idea that since Goku and Vegeta are the ones being discussed, it’s safe to apply this rule to their fusions.

Just to clarify, I’m not saying Goku keeping the powerlevel of SSGod in his base form is a thing. It’s only notable that he makes massive gains from training with Whis and his various battles throughout Dragon Ball Super. If he didn’t, we wouldn’t see Base Vegeta stomping SS3 Gotenks or Base Goku playing around with Freeza or Majin Boo.
To be fair, my general assumption was base Vegeta against Gotenks and whatnot came from before they decided to retcon the "absorbed SSG" stuff.
You still have Base Goku being able to do sporting matches with Piccolo and Majin Boo. Both were in their prime. In retrospect, Piccolo probably can be paired with Majin Boo the way he is in Top Arc. So, even if they don’t have the power of SSGod, they are at least beyond the SS2s from Boo Arc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:37 pm

In my opinion, there's absolutely no way to make sense of the power discrepancies in the anime other than retcons, and even then it's wildly confusing. The second Goku used super saiyan in the U6 tournament I had no idea what to make of anything. Goku goes super saiyan...is he 50x more powerful than the saiyan beyond god that fought frieza in the previous arc?? Just how big of a boost is blue then? This Cabba character, he's being written as inexperienced and can't even turn super saiyan, but is as strong as a super saiyan god in his base form? What the hell is going on?

And then there's super saiyan 3 Gotenks not even being able to make base copy-vegeta even flinch when attacked. So Cabba, the inexperienced saiyan who can't transform, should logically be so much more powerful than a fused ssj3 that he can take his attacks head on without reacting?

It's clear to me that the anime was following the power rules established by the movies, which weren't being followed by the manga and presumably Toriyama's new vision of the story. And there was just...a terrible communication with all parties.

There's also the fact that everyone was treating Frost like he was inexperienced, when to me it seemed like he was contending with a Goku who has the power of a ssj god in his base form. He made Goku have to transform! Frost was apparently stronger than boo arc Vegito but still a rookie??

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:28 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:11 pm
You still have Base Goku being able to do sporting matches with Piccolo and Majin Boo. Both were in their prime. In retrospect, Piccolo probably can be paired with Majin Boo the way he is in Top Arc. So, even if they don’t have the power of SSGod, they are at least beyond the SS2s from Boo Arc.
You do have a point. Though one thing to keep in mind is that at least originally, it was possible (I believe it may have actually been stated in a Toriyama interview somewhere, or possibly in the background info provided for DBO. Can anyone fact check me on that?) Fat Buu was weakened from being fissioned by Kid Buu. And Piccolo isn't necessarily suggested to have surpassed Goku and Vegeta as Super Saiyans in the Buu arc (or what was once the case in Super.) Though, I wouldn't find it too surprising either way if say, even after post-retcon justification Goku and Vegeta had trained their base forms beyond what was Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 in the Buu arc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:26 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:44 pm
I would have to say the 1st option is definitely for the manga, there is nothing implying their bases are crazy (except for Vegeta who in SS2 can beat up SS Black who in base surpasses SS3 Goku... good one Toyo)
Yeah, I go with option 1 for the Manga as well.
Though SS2 Vegeta being much stronger than SS3 Goku is actually consistent with the rage boost Vegeta got back in the BoG arc, so I'd actually praise Toyotarou for remembering that rather than seeing it as bad scaling.
Jack Bz wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:37 pm
In my opinion, there's absolutely no way to make sense of the power discrepancies in the anime other than retcons, and even then it's wildly confusing. The second Goku used super saiyan in the U6 tournament I had no idea what to make of anything. Goku goes super saiyan...is he 50x more powerful than the saiyan beyond god that fought frieza in the previous arc?? Just how big of a boost is blue then? This Cabba character, he's being written as inexperienced and can't even turn super saiyan, but is as strong as a super saiyan god in his base form? What the hell is going on?

And then there's super saiyan 3 Gotenks not even being able to make base copy-vegeta even flinch when attacked. So Cabba, the inexperienced saiyan who can't transform, should logically be so much more powerful than a fused ssj3 that he can take his attacks head on without reacting?

It's clear to me that the anime was following the power rules established by the movies, which weren't being followed by the manga and presumably Toriyama's new vision of the story. And there was just...a terrible communication with all parties.

There's also the fact that everyone was treating Frost like he was inexperienced, when to me it seemed like he was contending with a Goku who has the power of a ssj god in his base form. He made Goku have to transform! Frost was apparently stronger than boo arc Vegito but still a rookie??
Thank you, I couldn't have worded it better myself but these are my exact feelings towards the new fighters introduced in Super (other than Hit, Jiren, etc. of course).

Before the U6 vs U7 Tournament we see Goku hyping up someone like Buu to no end, and even after the tournament he still keeps up the same hype around him and thinks that they definitely need him for the Tournament of Power - which would make absolutely no sense if Buu was massively outclassed by Base Cabba.

We know how humongous the gap between Buu Saga characters and God tiers is, we've seen Beerus "fight" Buu and absolutely destroy him. This same Beerus later had trouble against Vegeta's "My Bulma!" power-up, and Goku & Vegeta have just gotten stronger since.
For all intents and purposes, Buu should be closer to Tenshinhan and Yamcha's level than Super Saiyan God's level.

Not to mention - you mean to tell me Piccolo, who didn't even enter the RoSaT the second time around against Cell because he didn't think he'd make a difference, is now able to fight on par with opponents on the same level as a Super Saiyan God?
Like damn, Piccolo could've just done a few push-ups while Super Buu was making his way towards the lookout, and the Manga could've ended a lot sooner.

I can accept a few fighters like Hit and Toppo being above Super Saiyan God, since Dragon Ball's message as a whole seems to be "There's always someone better", but there's no way the "literal-who"s in the Tournament of Power are on the level of the prophesied Super Saiyan God that made Beerus actually want to wake up and do something.
miguelnuva1 wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:04 pm
The fusions so far have all gotten lucky that the fusion base power exceeds the fusees highest form used.

In the same argument however depending on the continuity rules you could argue

Blue kkx20 and SSBE>Gogeta base> SS Blue.

You can also argue that while Fusion and Potara now have the same multiplier as they were stated equal trump cards Gogeta's base is made from Blue as that is Goku and Vegeta's highest equal form,

Where as Vegito's base would be made from SSBE and UI sign as Vegito's base just takes the max avaible power.
Yep, it's most likely just coincidence and/or confirmation.
All Base Vegito actually does is get a cheap shot on Zamasu in the Manga.

And what Base Gogeta does in the Movie...
Goku and Vegeta hold their own against Broly before distracting him with Freeza and escaping
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMu3WCt662o
Time stamp - 1:28

Base Gogeta literally doing less than what Goku and Vegeta could do, and transforming into Super Saiyan to outclass Broly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LehvY__pLYY
Time stamp - 1:01
...is actually less impressive than what SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta do.
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:31 pm
Fair enough point. But I highly doubt that the second Goku unlocks UI at will it'll mean Gogeta/Vegito in their base forms are suddenly stronger than it as well. I just don't understand why someone would tout that line of reasoning as though it's some absolute fact, where to deny it makes one "stupid."
Yeah, I don't see how the forms available to the fusees should affect the Base power of the Fusion. If it really worked that way, Goku should've just fused with Satan, or hell he could've fused with the dog and still reap a 400x boost and absolutely demolish Buu.
It was just pure coincidence that the fusion ended up being as strong as it did.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:51 am

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:28 pm
Piccolo isn't necessarily suggested to have surpassed Goku and Vegeta as Super Saiyans in the Buu arc (or what was once the case in Super.)
Piccolo actually beat SS2 Gohan in combat strength and managed to trick even Ultimate Gohan. So, I don’t think those SSs have a chance against this version of Piccolo. Furthermore, Piccolo gets stronger and even his supercharged shockwave can barely make Goku put a guard. This is the same Goku that was able to match Majin Boo in combat strength and speed, but lost to his wise.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:01 pm

DBZ Macky wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:26 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:44 pm
I would have to say the 1st option is definitely for the manga, there is nothing implying their bases are crazy (except for Vegeta who in SS2 can beat up SS Black who in base surpasses SS3 Goku... good one Toyo)
Yeah, I go with option 1 for the Manga as well.
Though SS2 Vegeta being much stronger than SS3 Goku is actually consistent with the rage boost Vegeta got back in the BoG arc, so I'd actually praise Toyotarou for remembering that rather than seeing it as bad scaling.
I'd argue that considering Goku and Vegeta post-BoG were dead even, with the manga implying Goku is one step ahead, it makes no sense to have one of the guys in a lesser form sooooo much stronger than the other guy's higher form. The gap implied is too much, way bigger than in BoG.

SS2 Trunks/SS3 Goku 400
base Black 500
SS Black 5000
SS2 Vegeta 5100

And that is with SS Black being 10x, not 50x, and the least difference between them. Lowballing, SS2 Vegeta is at least 10x stronger than SS3 Goku!!
The subtext of BoG's feat was to have SS2 Vegeta match or even surpass SS3 Goku (which never happened in the manga), more like SS2 Trunks was doing. SS2 Vegeta should've been around that, not stronger than the 10-50x boost SS Black got.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:10 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:01 pm
DBZ Macky wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:26 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:44 pm
I would have to say the 1st option is definitely for the manga, there is nothing implying their bases are crazy (except for Vegeta who in SS2 can beat up SS Black who in base surpasses SS3 Goku... good one Toyo)
Yeah, I go with option 1 for the Manga as well.
Though SS2 Vegeta being much stronger than SS3 Goku is actually consistent with the rage boost Vegeta got back in the BoG arc, so I'd actually praise Toyotarou for remembering that rather than seeing it as bad scaling.
I'd argue that considering Goku and Vegeta post-BoG were dead even, with the manga implying Goku is one step ahead, it makes no sense to have one of the guys in a lesser form sooooo much stronger than the other guy's higher form. The gap implied is too much, way bigger than in BoG.

SS2 Trunks/SS3 Goku 400
base Black 500
SS Black 5000
SS2 Vegeta 5100

And that is with SS Black being 10x, not 50x, and the least difference between them. Lowballing, SS2 Vegeta is at least 10x stronger than SS3 Goku!!
The subtext of BoG's feat was to have SS2 Vegeta match or even surpass SS3 Goku (which never happened in the manga), more like SS2 Trunks was doing. SS2 Vegeta should've been around that, not stronger than the 10-50x boost SS Black got.
Unless if ig we use headcanon to say that Vegeta was always using Quake of Fury SS2....?
P O W E R

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:15 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:01 pm
I'd argue that considering Goku and Vegeta post-BoG were dead even, with the manga implying Goku is one step ahead, it makes no sense to have one of the guys in a lesser form sooooo much stronger than the other guy's higher form. The gap implied is too much, way bigger than in BoG.

SS2 Trunks/SS3 Goku 400
base Black 500
SS Black 5000
SS2 Vegeta 5100

And that is with SS Black being 10x, not 50x, and the least difference between them. Lowballing, SS2 Vegeta is at least 10x stronger than SS3 Goku!!
The subtext of BoG's feat was to have SS2 Vegeta match or even surpass SS3 Goku (which never happened in the manga), more like SS2 Trunks was doing. SS2 Vegeta should've been around that, not stronger than the 10-50x boost SS Black got.
Honestly, I stopped viewing hard multipliers as an actual thing after Frieza. It's clear we're just at the stage of "things are vaguely stronger or weaker than other things". If hard multipliers were still a thing, things like "his SS2 got stronger" wouldn't really make much sense. Multipliers at this point just lead to overthinking things imo. (Though, SSBKK technically brought them back in the anime.)

Honestly the way it was handled in the anime got particularly egregious, with Beerus saying SS2 Vegeta made him have to use 10% of his power. (And unlike with Goku, there's no rhyme or reason to think that he lied given the context.) Anime-wise, knowing SSBKKx10 Goku (and possibly SSBKKx20) is still weaker than Beerus, if things were consistent that would put Vegeta's power output as an SS2 as somewhere within the leagues of a post-Resurrection F SSGSS Goku at least. Though we obviously know that isn't true.

Ultimately, things just don't make sense.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by miguelnuva1 » Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:50 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:15 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:01 pm
I'd argue that considering Goku and Vegeta post-BoG were dead even, with the manga implying Goku is one step ahead, it makes no sense to have one of the guys in a lesser form sooooo much stronger than the other guy's higher form. The gap implied is too much, way bigger than in BoG.

SS2 Trunks/SS3 Goku 400
base Black 500
SS Black 5000
SS2 Vegeta 5100

And that is with SS Black being 10x, not 50x, and the least difference between them. Lowballing, SS2 Vegeta is at least 10x stronger than SS3 Goku!!
The subtext of BoG's feat was to have SS2 Vegeta match or even surpass SS3 Goku (which never happened in the manga), more like SS2 Trunks was doing. SS2 Vegeta should've been around that, not stronger than the 10-50x boost SS Black got.
Honestly, I stopped viewing hard multipliers as an actual thing after Frieza. It's clear we're just at the stage of "things are vaguely stronger or weaker than other things". If hard multipliers were still a thing, things like "his SS2 got stronger" wouldn't really make much sense. Multipliers at this point just lead to overthinking things imo. (Though, SSBKK technically brought them back in the anime.)

Honestly the way it was handled in the anime got particularly egregious, with Beerus saying SS2 Vegeta made him have to use 10% of his power. (And unlike with Goku, there's no rhyme or reason to think that he lied given the context.) Anime-wise, knowing SSBKKx10 Goku (and possibly SSBKKx20) is still weaker than Beerus, if things were consistent that would put Vegeta's power output as an SS2 as somewhere within the leagues of a post-Resurrection F SSGSS Goku at least. Though we obviously know that isn't true.

Ultimately, things just don't make sense.
Beerus is using 10% of the power he deemed appropriate for that time. 10% of BOG Beerus could be 1% of Full power Beerus for example.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:58 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:50 pm
Beerus is using 10% of the power he deemed appropriate for that time. 10% of BOG Beerus could be 1% of Full power Beerus for example.
"10% of the power he deemed appropriate for that time."

That sounds kiiiiiinda arbitrary. Either he's using 10% of actual power or he isn't. The latter makes that statement meaningless for Beerus to bring up at all, especially given the context of the scene.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by miguelnuva1 » Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:32 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:58 pm
miguelnuva1 wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:50 pm
Beerus is using 10% of the power he deemed appropriate for that time. 10% of BOG Beerus could be 1% of Full power Beerus for example.
"10% of the power he deemed appropriate for that time."

That sounds kiiiiiinda arbitrary. Either he's using 10% of actual power or he isn't. The latter makes that statement meaningless for Beerus to bring up at all, especially given the context of the scene.
I forgot to say could be. Anyway Beerus's power is being retconned is one main problem Super has. He could have been using 10% of his power at the time but power scaling has altered that to either 10% of what ever he is using at the time or 10% of Beerus's power is not simply 10x weaker than his 100%.

Goku getting kaioken back has really screwed up Beerus's power as Goku is at minimum 40x stronger in the TOP againts Jiren then he is against Beerus and God Goku should atleast double angry Vegeta.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:30 pm

I always viewed it as "Suppressed Beerus" used 10% of his power against Vegeta, and used 100% of his power against Goku.
Of course, Suppressed Beerus is likely actually not even 0.01% as strong as Beerus, but it doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility to me that the gap between Enraged Vegeta and SSG Goku might be as small as 10x.

If you feel 10x is a bit too close for your liking, then you could argue the Galick Gun was what amped Vegeta's power enough to actually make Suppressed Beerus use 10% of his power. In any case, if Vegeta's going to get a crazy "Rage Boost" out of left field anyways, might as well take it all the way.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:37 am

DBZ Macky wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:30 pm
I always viewed it as "Suppressed Beerus" used 10% of his power against Vegeta, and used 100% of his power against Goku.
Of course, Suppressed Beerus is likely actually not even 0.01% as strong as Beerus, but it doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility to me that the gap between Enraged Vegeta and SSG Goku might be as small as 10x.

If you feel 10x is a bit too close for your liking, then you could argue the Galick Gun was what amped Vegeta's power enough to actually make Suppressed Beerus use 10% of his power. In any case, if Vegeta's going to get a crazy "Rage Boost" out of left field anyways, might as well take it all the way.
The thing is, he's not saying he's using 100% of his suppressed power against Goku, he's just lying outright about his output in that moment, which Whis specifically notes he was lying about his full power to Goku (to try and push as much as he could out of him), not the comment made to Vegeta.

Plus, honestly, the idea that Beerus at no point was using more than "0.01%" also feels egregious to me.

Granted, these might be the only ways to justify an otherwise ridiculous power inconsistency in the anime.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:13 am

miguelnuva1 wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:32 pm
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:58 pm
miguelnuva1 wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:50 pm
Beerus is using 10% of the power he deemed appropriate for that time. 10% of BOG Beerus could be 1% of Full power Beerus for example.
"10% of the power he deemed appropriate for that time."

That sounds kiiiiiinda arbitrary. Either he's using 10% of actual power or he isn't. The latter makes that statement meaningless for Beerus to bring up at all, especially given the context of the scene.
I forgot to say could be. Anyway Beerus's power is being retconned is one main problem Super has. He could have been using 10% of his power at the time but power scaling has altered that to either 10% of what ever he is using at the time or 10% of Beerus's power is not simply 10x weaker than his 100%.

Goku getting kaioken back has really screwed up Beerus's power as Goku is at minimum 40x stronger in the TOP againts Jiren then he is against Beerus and God Goku should atleast double angry Vegeta.

Beerus power for Beerus vs SsjG Goku.

I’d imagine Beerus used anywhere 1-5% of his power against Goku during the BoG fight. Probably 5% for Goku and 1-2% for Vegeta when he raged out.

Goku’s power comparing to Beerus.
RoF: SsjB Goku= 8-10% Beerus
U6: SsjB Goku= 10-12% with KKx10= 20-35%
Black: Ssjb Goku= 15-20%
ToP: SsjB Goku= 20-25%, KKx20= 40-45%, UIO1= 60%, UIO3= 110% MUI= 150%
Broly: SsjB Goku= 30-35%
Moro: SsjB Goku= 40-45%, UIO4= 120%

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sadala Elite » Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:32 am

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:10 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
The fact that UI is a non-voluntary limit breaker power suggest that it isn't natural like the SSJ forms
You realize that Super Saiyan was originally non-voluntary as well, right? And that Goku literally just began learning how to tap into Ultra Instinct at will? You know, the same way he did with Super Saiyan? Which Goku said he struggled to do at will at first too? So what new statement are you gonna pull out your ass to try and justify that "Ultra Instinct doesn't count" for me to contradict?
Yet you forget that SSJ is a biological ability tied to Goku's race, making it wholly natural unlike UI which is a wholly transcendent transformation. Its not a 1 to 1 comparison
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
Goku & Vegeta has NEVER been shown to suffer major fatigue from using SSB in the anime, they were constantly shown spamming the form with no consequence, especially the in ToP, where Vegeta could still use SSBE even after his self-destruct attack lmao
So? Regardless of what feats show, we're told through the story's expositionary piece that, again. 1. Uses up stamina. And 2. Is only being used by Goku as needed. You have yet to address Whis' statements. If your response is "well their feats in the tournament seems to contradict that," then my response is "well Whis in the same arc contradicts that."
Thats a stupid response lol. You ever heard show don't tell? If a audience never sees visual evidence of something, they have no reason to believe it. The only one being contradicting is you
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
yet the fact that Goku took no major damage from her suggest she ain't SSB level in Berzerk
I never said that it showed she was SSB level, the most obvious thing to gather from that fight is that Super Saiyan God wasn't enough, which was my original damned point. Keep up.
Yes you did. By arguing that Goku needed SSB at all, you a basically saying that Kale is SSB level. You can't even follow your own logic lmao
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
Yet later episodes prove that she he didn't have to (unless he got some post-Omen boost after the hour special)
That's the only way you can justify it, but the episodes make it explicit that Goku's actually weaker than he was at the start of the tournament during that period because of his fatigue. So the only way you can actually justify it is acknowledging that it's an inconsistency. If Goku got some post-Omen boost or if Goku was holding back in ep.101, the it obviously wasn't an inconsistency. Logic 101 lmao
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
No it isn't because him using SSB against her already has a built-in explanation either way, you are just in denial
What "built-in" explanation are you referring to exactly? See above lolHow is me using statements from the arc as basis for my argument me being "in denial"? Since when is using unsubstantiated statements a valid argument?You're the one who sounds kiiiiinda in denial, saying Whis, the guy who's been training them who only really exists as an expository piece is somehow wrong. There's no demonstrated evidence of him being right about that in the anime version. If Krillin were to at one point say some crap like "Tien is an alcoholic" yet we never see him even drink, then that statement can be dismissed. Show don't tell
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
yet there's not a single instance in the anime where stamina issues from SSB are a thing of consequence, unlike the manga
Which makes it more inconsistent that "SSB has stamina issues" is something that's been stated in the anime ever since the U6 tournament arc, and is repeated twice more in the Tournament of Power. Just because the effects aren't generally shown, doesn't mean the anime didn't make it clear that those effects still exist. Yes it does, its stupid to argue otherwise. Show dont tellAnyhow, the fatigue is noted when Goku uses Kaioken on top of it in both arcs. That fatigue is due to Kaioken, not SSB
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
No it doesn't. The fact that you cling to Whis essentially irrelevant statement which is never proven by shown events speaks volumes
"Irrelevant statement" lol
"never proven" lol
Ok so statements made within the series by characters with authority on relevant topics don't matter to you. It's good to know your arguments don't actually matter then lol
Show don't tell bro, only an idiot couldn't understand this simple rule. If the audience never sees a demonstrated example of something stated, then it doesn't count. Your argument fails lol
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
Learn 2 read bro lpl
Learn to relay information bro lmao
Learn not to deflect bro lol
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
You clearly seem to fail basic logic smh
If you say so. Most other people with eyes seem to agree that Resurrection F's promotional manga isn't in Dragon Ball Super volume 1 though. Or any Dragon Ball Super volume for that matter.
And if most believed that 2+2=5 it would still be wrong
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
They never had any reason to use SSG in the anime prior to the ToP, so your argument is weak here. At no point before the ToP anime di they fight character thats stronger than SSJ3 but notably weaker than SSB. And the fact that Goku & Vegeta's bases were constantly shown to be >>>>>Z even after the Black arc shows how wrong you are
By your same logic that "they never had any reason to use SSG in the anime prior to the ToP," they never had any reason to use SSG in the ToP lol.This is a retarded argument lmao. Literally no one Goku or Vegeta fought before the ToP in the anime was above SSJ3 but below SSB Literally every opponent that Goku used Super Saiyan God against, except Caulifla (and the weird inconsistency with SS2 Kale), was SSB tier only in the ToP arc lol, never before. Or are you going to suggest that Frieza shouldn't have had to use his Golden form against Dyspo?stupid argument lol. Dsypo didn't go all-out against Goku like he did against Freeza & Gohan Or that Hit should never have struggled against Dyspo in the first place?another dumb argument lol. Neither fighter went all-ouy Not to mention the times he chose to use SSG against Jiren or (in a particularly unnecessary case) Anilaza Again, both examples are from the ToP, and Goku was testing the waters to see how strong they were. It would have honestly been fine for Goku to use SSG against Zamasu at the very least, who was likely above SS3 but still weaker than SSB Goku. Future Zamasu in the anime was clearly low SSB tier based on feats

Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
They weren't even going all out in base, weak argument bro lol
If you want to say so. But this was already mid-way through the tournament and Goku had already gone Blue several times, so being "slow-to-start" isn't really a valid excuse in this instance.
That doesn't make any sense, how is Goku using SSB previously meaning that he wasn't holding back? There's no logic to your argument
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
This is a fallacy. SSJ2 Trunks in Super is NOT Buu-arc SSJ2 level in power. This is a Trunks that had 10+ years of training after getting rid of Future Dabura (and we all know how in Super characters get massive off-screen power-ups from training lol)
That would make Trunks the only Saiyan/Earthling who got a god-tier level power-up exclusively from training, which suspends some level of disbelief. Gohan did the same thingYou could be right, MAYBE Trunks is just as strong as a "Saiyan Beyond God" now for absolutely no reason. But other people can just draw my conclusion that it's an inconsistency with how strong Goku's base form is."other people agree with me" isnt a valid argument OR people can just assume he was using SS3 but "held back" the same way he did against Krillin. Either way, it's far from being a fallacy as you describe. Its a massive fallacy
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
You are pulling BS out of your ass if you think Fit Buu is weaker than Buuhan. If Base Goku in DBS is only where he was in the Buu arc then Fit Buu should have flicked him easily, and if Fit Buu was weaker than Buuhan then Saiyan-Beyond God Goku should have easily flicked. So your argument fails either way, Base Goku vs Fit Buu only makes sense if both characters are far beyond their Z selves
If you say so lol
So you admit you can't prove me wrong and resort to ad hominems lol
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:09 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:01 pm
The only you think it was retconned is that you don't like the idea that 90% of the ToP fodder would solo Z by scaling
Since I'm getting to that point later, I may as well point out that this is an ad hominem.
thats not an ad hominem lol

May as well take a moment again to say that you didn't comment on this bit. I caught your response attacking my opinions (ones made-up by you mind you) instead of my position and reasoning I did attack your bad logic, you just refused to acknowledge that fact, and since it makes you look bad you'd rather just ignore it projecting much?. Well too bad, I'm not so kind as to just let that slip by.
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
Yes, your argument is dumb lol. Arguing that "the power of SSG" in RoF doesn't refer to the SSG transformation itself is dumb. Arguing that SSB is just "SSJ1 with God ki" is REALLY dumb lol
You didn't seem to read the image. So let me read it back to you.

"It is said that Saiyans can gain control of god-like power without changing form." This refers to "Saiyan Beyond God," and not the Super Saiyan God transformation. Pay special note to the statement "god-like power without changing form." "But if those god-like Saiyans change into Super Saiyans, then the power of Super Saiyan God SS is born!" This suggests that in Resurrection F, the original intention was Super Saiyan God SS replaced Goku and Vegeta using Super Saiyan entirely, while all the power from Super Saiyan God remained with them in their base form.
Yet in all continuities both Goku & Vegeta could use regular SSJ1 again post-RoF........
"Saiyan Beyond God", as well as the mechanics of SSGSS itself were slowly retconned through Super. It's not the Super Saiyan form someone who attained the power of Super Saiyan God in base anymore, (which, if you can't read, that image makes very clear was once the case,) now it's just Super Saiyan on top of Super Saiyan God. Which is exactly what I've been saying SSB is thus whole thread lmao. After all this back and forth you now admit I'm right lmao.
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:39 pm
Your whole view seem to be based on you simply not liking the idea of base Goku/Vegeta being that strong at all and being in denial, without any real logic or proof.
Thats not an Ad hominem lol
You attempted to discredit my arguments on the grounds of me "not liking the idea of base Goku/Vegeta being that strong" instead of a proper debate against my position. That's an ad hominem.
Its a factual observation
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
Yet Whis' statement failed to be validated by the sequence of events shown in the anime, a fact that you fail to see. If character statements don't match what is actually shown or are never backed up in any credible way then they are false. If Whis were to say "Goku is a deer" in an episode that doesn't make it fact since we can clearly see that it's a false claim lol.
If you say so lol
Cant refute basic logic I see lol
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
Youre projecting lol
Given all the evidence to the contrary, I don't think I am? Well, if you say so, I must be. You're just so right about everything else.
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:06 pm
https://pm1.narvii.com/6789/9384a27c622 ... 4v2_hq.jpg

There also the fact that there hasn't been a single Base Saiyan fusion that wasn't portrayed as being stronger than their individual half's best natural form.
First of all, literally nothing in that image supports your argument. The only thing stated is that Vegito was stronger than a Super Saiyan 3 which was Goku's strongest form in the Buu saga. Nothing in that image states or even suggests that it's a blanket case for fusions that "the base form of a fusion always surpasses the strongest form of the user." The fact that literally every single Saiyan fusion in the franchise did exactly that proves you're wrong

There's also the fact that you're wrong (lol,) because Gogeta's base form isn't stronger than Ultra Instinct Goku UI isnt a natural form as explained already lol, as well as the contradiction with Kefla. Base Kefla was clearly stronger than any form of Kale shown in the series, no contradiction at all.

Anyways, if you want to continue being a douche when discussing this topic, go right on ahead and I can respond in kind. You continue to bring nothing to the table of any weight or value for debateso facts and logic is of no value to you lol?, and you continue making up new headcanons and continue discrediting statements within the series to justify your position as well so facts and in-universe, actually shown events are "headcanon" now?. Feel free to keep going.

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