Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Dragon Wukong]

I'm tired of you, "Sadala Elite". I doubt anyone here cares for your toxicity.

Anyways, with the ability to absorb the abilities of anyone he touches, Moro certainly seems to be the most busted villain yet so far.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I'm tired of you, "Sadala Elite". I doubt anyone here cares for your toxicity.

Anyways, with the ability to absorb the abilities of anyone he touches, Moro certainly seems to be the most busted villain yet so far.

Sounds about right. Moro tried to introduce hax on the frame, but ended up getting mega strong. I mean it still works like that, but this is one of the reasons I can't see him beyond MUI or Blue Fusion yet, but above GoD level.

Buu was kinda busted at his time too tho ngl. Good abilities too.

Also it's kinda 7-3's ability that was transferred to Moro, so I like the fact that he grew as a warrior too! He progressed himself.

[Koitsukai]

Beerus power for Beerus vs SsjG Goku.

I’d imagine Beerus used anywhere 1-5% of his power against Goku during the BoG fight. Probably 5% for Goku and 1-2% for Vegeta when he raged out.

Goku’s power comparing to Beerus.
RoF: SsjB Goku= 8-10% Beerus
U6: SsjB Goku= 10-12% with KKx10= 20-35%
Black: Ssjb Goku= 15-20%
ToP: SsjB Goku= 20-25%, KKx20= 40-45%, UIO1= 60%, UIO3= 110% MUI= 150%
Broly: SsjB Goku= 30-35%
Moro: SsjB Goku= 40-45%, UIO4= 120%

I think this is a fair assessment of Beerus' power compared to Goku's throughout DBS

[DBZ Macky]

U6: SsjB Goku= 10-12% with KKx10= 20-35%

I'm not sure I understand how this works. Are you implying a logarithmic scale?

snip

If I took a shot every time you said "lol", I might be dead right now. Please let's try to have a civil discussion here.

Just because the Base Fusions (allegedly) being stronger than the fusees' strongest forms is a "factual observation" on your behalf, it doesn't mean that always needs to be the case.

Are you insinuating that Goku could've just fused with Mr. Satan and instantly become stronger than SS3 in his base, and go SS3 on top of that power?

That'd completely disregard what was stated in the actual series when Goku imagined fusing with Satan might be as small as an increase of going from a power level of 1000 to 1001.

Base Vegetto being stronger than Goku and Vegeta's strongest forms was just coincidence, and he doesn't even show his power in the Manga, instead opting to transform immediately.

Base Gotenks being stronger than Super Saiyans Goten and Trunks is also not as cut-and-dry. The guidebooks imply that Goten and Trunks were on par with the adult Saiyans, while Gotenks didn't even surpass Majin Vegeta until he gets Super Saiyan 3.

Base Gogeta doesn't do anything that puts him above Super Saiyan Blue's level either. SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta have a much better showing against SS Broly than Base Gogeta does.

[miguelnuva1]

U6: SsjB Goku= 10-12% with KKx10= 20-35%

I'm not sure I understand how this works. Are you implying a logarithmic scale?

snip

If I took a shot every time you said "lol", I might be dead right now. Please let's try to have a civil discussion here.

Just because the Base Fusions (allegedly) being stronger than the fusees' strongest forms is a "factual observation" on your behalf, it doesn't mean that always needs to be the case.

Are you insinuating that Goku could've just fused with Mr. Satan and instantly become stronger than SS3 in his base, and go SS3 on top of that power?

That'd completely disregard what was stated in the actual series when Goku imagined fusing with Satan might be as small as an increase of going from a power level of 1000 to 1001.

Base Vegetto being stronger than Goku and Vegeta's strongest forms was just coincidence, and he doesn't even show his power in the Manga, instead opting to transform immediately.

Base Gotenks being stronger than Super Saiyans Goten and Trunks is also not as cut-and-dry. The guidebooks imply that Goten and Trunks were on par with the adult Saiyans, while Gotenks didn't even surpass Majin Vegeta until he gets Super Saiyan 3.

Base Gogeta doesn't do anything that puts him above Super Saiyan Blue's level either. SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta have a much better showing against SS Broly than Base Gogeta does.

I took that as Base Gotenks surpassed Majim Vegeta after the ROSAT.

If you go Majin Vegeta> SS Gotenks post then at least it keeps the buu saga scaling down.

Finally as for Base Gogeta I disagree. Base Gogeta dodges Broly's attack and is smiling and laughing before he goes SS. At worst he's in the same tier as Goku and Vegeta blue if not outright stronger.

Had this been the anime Gogeta might have attack Bry is hase the way he was moving in the fight.

We have to take into count how Goku and Vegeta fight and how Broly improves, Gogeta uses SS and Blue likely due to Broly's growth as Base Gogeta is dodging him and later when LSS Broly punches SS Gogeta while Brolynwas stronger it didn't look to the degree that Gogeta needed to respond with Blue.

[Berserker1921]

U6: SsjB Goku= 10-12% with KKx10= 20-35%

I'm not sure I understand how this works. Are you implying a logarithmic scale?

snip

If I took a shot every time you said "lol", I might be dead right now. Please let's try to have a civil discussion here.

Just because the Base Fusions (allegedly) being stronger than the fusees' strongest forms is a "factual observation" on your behalf, it doesn't mean that always needs to be the case.

Are you insinuating that Goku could've just fused with Mr. Satan and instantly become stronger than SS3 in his base, and go SS3 on top of that power?

That'd completely disregard what was stated in the actual series when Goku imagined fusing with Satan might be as small as an increase of going from a power level of 1000 to 1001.

Base Vegetto being stronger than Goku and Vegeta's strongest forms was just coincidence, and he doesn't even show his power in the Manga, instead opting to transform immediately.

Base Gotenks being stronger than Super Saiyans Goten and Trunks is also not as cut-and-dry. The guidebooks imply that Goten and Trunks were on par with the adult Saiyans, while Gotenks didn't even surpass Majin Vegeta until he gets Super Saiyan 3.

Base Gogeta doesn't do anything that puts him above Super Saiyan Blue's level either. SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta have a much better showing against SS Broly than Base Gogeta does.

I am guessing. Playing with numbers. Nothing is concrete. I assuming.

[ZombieVito]

In my opinion, there's absolutely no way to make sense of the power discrepancies in the anime other than retcons, and even then it's wildly confusing. The second Goku used super saiyan in the U6 tournament I had no idea what to make of anything. Goku goes super saiyan...is he 50x more powerful than the saiyan beyond god that fought frieza in the previous arc?? Just how big of a boost is blue then? This Cabba character, he's being written as inexperienced and can't even turn super saiyan, but is as strong as a super saiyan god in his base form? What the hell is going on?

And then there's super saiyan 3 Gotenks not even being able to make base copy-vegeta even flinch when attacked. So Cabba, the inexperienced saiyan who can't transform, should logically be so much more powerful than a fused ssj3 that he can take his attacks head on without reacting?

It's clear to me that the anime was following the power rules established by the movies, which weren't being followed by the manga and presumably Toriyama's new vision of the story. And there was just...a terrible communication with all parties.

There's also the fact that everyone was treating Frost like he was inexperienced, when to me it seemed like he was contending with a Goku who has the power of a ssj god in his base form. He made Goku have to transform! Frost was apparently stronger than boo arc Vegito but still a rookie??

Raditz was a complete noob when it came to ki and he still could beat all of DB with a finger.

Experience =/= power level.

[Jack Bz]

In my opinion, there's absolutely no way to make sense of the power discrepancies in the anime other than retcons, and even then it's wildly confusing. The second Goku used super saiyan in the U6 tournament I had no idea what to make of anything. Goku goes super saiyan...is he 50x more powerful than the saiyan beyond god that fought frieza in the previous arc?? Just how big of a boost is blue then? This Cabba character, he's being written as inexperienced and can't even turn super saiyan, but is as strong as a super saiyan god in his base form? What the hell is going on?

And then there's super saiyan 3 Gotenks not even being able to make base copy-vegeta even flinch when attacked. So Cabba, the inexperienced saiyan who can't transform, should logically be so much more powerful than a fused ssj3 that he can take his attacks head on without reacting?

It's clear to me that the anime was following the power rules established by the movies, which weren't being followed by the manga and presumably Toriyama's new vision of the story. And there was just...a terrible communication with all parties.

There's also the fact that everyone was treating Frost like he was inexperienced, when to me it seemed like he was contending with a Goku who has the power of a ssj god in his base form. He made Goku have to transform! Frost was apparently stronger than boo arc Vegito but still a rookie??

Raditz was a complete noob when it came to ki and he still could beat all of DB with a finger.

Experience =/= power level.

This really doesn't address the point that I'm making at all. The show doesn't in any way try to portray that these characters are on the level of Gods in strength. Nobody was marvelling that there are saiyans that can't transform who are as strong as a super saiyan god, or remarking that Frost is even more powerful than Freeza in equivalent forms. They're treated more or less like weak characters who have potential but a long way to go in learning how to fight.

Piccolo also puts up a decent fight against Frost, and might have even won if it wasn't for his poison. Suddenly Piccolo is super saiyan god tier? Totally nonsensical. He shouldn't be able to put up any kind of fight considering Gohan as a super saiyan lost to first form Freeza, and this is only 1 arc later.

[DBZ Macky]

Raditz was a complete noob when it came to ki and he still could beat all of DB with a finger.

Experience =/= power level.

I agree with you, it might sound like something Jiren would say, but Dragon Ball Z has always shown that raw strength trumps everything else.

Even in the Raditz fight, Goku and co. only won because they (and Gohan) could raise their power levels by absurd amounts.

99% of the times in DBZ, the guy with the higher power level defeats the guy with the lower power level. Sometimes, even a 5% gap (see Vegeta vs Base Zarbon) is enough for the stronger guy to comfortably overpower the weaker guy.

This is not the case in Dragon Ball Super.

I think there's a reasonable in-universe explanation for that:
The U6 arc and the ToP arc were set in tournament settings, where everyone has to fight on relatively the same level to avoid killing their opponents and risk getting disqualified.
As for the Zamasu Arc, Black and Zamasu are obviously sick in the head, so it's not that unlikely that they'd hold back on killing Trunks and try to prolong the fight.

So it makes sense to me that most of the fighters are not actually stronger than Super Saiyan God, but can still give Goku a good fight.

I took that as Base Gotenks surpassed Majim Vegeta after the ROSAT.

If you go Majin Vegeta> SS Gotenks post then at least it keeps the buu saga scaling down.

Finally as for Base Gogeta I disagree. Base Gogeta dodges Broly's attack and is smiling and laughing before he goes SS. At worst he's in the same tier as Goku and Vegeta blue if not outright stronger.

Had this been the anime Gogeta might have attack Bry is hase the way he was moving in the fight.

We have to take into count how Goku and Vegeta fight and how Broly improves, Gogeta uses SS and Blue likely due to Broly's growth as Base Gogeta is dodging him and later when LSS Broly punches SS Gogeta while Brolynwas stronger it didn't look to the degree that Gogeta needed to respond with Blue.

Gotenks seems like the definitive "overhyped" character to me, and it's not even the fandom's fault. I always felt like Gotenks being overhyped was the joke of his character, since he really doesn't end up actually amounting to anything before Super Saiyan 3.

I can understand what you mean about Gogeta, since I had been on the bandwagon of Base Gogeta > SSB Goku not too long ago. But if you re-watch the fight, you'll see what I mean too.

SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta actually physically trade blows with Broly, and Goku actually parries dozens of Broly's Ki Blasts all by himself.

Gogeta on the other hand, merely dodges Broly's attacks (which even Goku and Vegeta could do) and only parries a few of Broly's Ki Blasts at the end when forced into a corner immediately before transforming.

I don't think Gogeta's cocky attitude says much about Base Gogeta's power, when according to their performances, it definitely seems that the SSBs did much more. You could argue that Broly was getting stronger, but we don't really know by how much. If he really got stronger by a significant margin, Freeza wouldn't be there for the rest of the Movie.

Judging from Kefla being able to overpower SSG Goku, and SSG Goku being on the losing end against Ikari Broly, I think that the fusions in DBS are above SSG level, but below SSB.

This is how I think the power scale would look:

Kale & Caulifla < Goku & Vegeta << SSG < Base Kefla < Base Gogeta < SSB < SS Kefla < SS Gogeta << SSB Gogeta

[ZombieVito]

This really doesn't address the point that I'm making at all. The show doesn't in any way try to portray that these characters are on the level of Gods in strength. Nobody was marvelling that there are saiyans that can't transform who are as strong as a super saiyan god, or remarking that Frost is even more powerful than Freeza in equivalent forms. They're treated more or less like weak characters who have potential but a long way to go in learning how to fight.

Piccolo also puts up a decent fight against Frost, and might have even won if it wasn't for his poison. Suddenly Piccolo is super saiyan god tier? Totally nonsensical. He shouldn't be able to put up any kind of fight considering Gohan as a super saiyan lost to first form Freeza, and this is only 1 arc later.

Well that's very easy to explain: Base Goku is not = SSG tier. Very far from it.

Piccolo never put up a fight at all. He completely fought in a defensive mode during the whole fight. Also the Freeza example can't work, Frost is not only severely damaged (And having to conserve stamina for the next fight) but he can't kill Piccolo. Freeza has no such drawbacks.

P.S. Gohan is also a terrible fighter.

[emperior]

Scaling Beerus

Anime
Scaling Beerus in the anime is quite hard and head-scratching due to Kaioken. I think by Broly’s movie (I won’t consider Moro as it would be different in the anime) the scale would be like this:
• SSG: 2% of Beerus
• SSB: 4% of Beerus
• SSB KKx10: 40% of Beerus
• SSB KKx20: 80% of Beerus
• UI Omen: 100% of Beerus
• UI: 120% of Beerus

Manga
While in the manga (Broly movie, for facilitating comparison) it’s much easier to scale Beerus:
• SSG: 60% of Beerus
• SSB (Average Power): 70% of Beerus
• Mastered SSB: 75% of Beerus
• SSB Evolution: 85% of Beerus
• UI Omen: 90% of Beerus
• UI: 110% of Beerus
The assumptions are that Goku and Vegeta do not undergo through major improvements, aside from their new transformations, since Goku fights with Beerus in Battle of Gods. Therefore it’s possible that Toyotaro has tried to stay as close as possible to the original 6-10-15 scale from Toriyama.
Basically Battle of Gods Goku may actually be a 55% of Beerus’ power, or slightly more, but at their level of power even a mere 1% increase would be a lot.
Mastered SSB would be already quite close to Beerus as Vegeta managed to land a punch in his brief fight with Beerus, and Goku tried to overcharge SSB in a desperate attempt to surpass Jiren.
And SSB Evolution wouldn’t be too inferior to UI Omen, as Jiren compared Vegeta’s power to it.
Right now, with the recent manga’s developments, Evolution may actually be a bit more than 90% of Beerus (maybe 92-93%), so extremely close, while Omen would still be around 90%.

Toriyama scale
Again, by Broly’s movie:
• SSG: 65%
• SSB: 85%
Toriyama doesn’t know what the heck to do with Beerus. In Resurrection F Whis said that a teamwork of Goku and Vegeta might have been enough to handle Beerus, but then in Broly their teamwork is obviously not enough to beat normal Super Saiyan Broly, who was just around Super Saiyan Gogeta level of powers. And Gogeta was forced to go Blue once Broly reached Full Power. And Broly’s Full Power “might” be stronger than Beerus.
Therefore I would say that, according to Toriyama, either Goku and Vegeta have barely improved since Resurrection F or, more likely, Beerus’ power has been retconned since then and a teamwork of two guys around his power is not enough to beat him. Which actually fits with how things have always worked in DB, as usually a teamwork of 2 fighters a little below the level of their enemy was never enough to make a substantial difference.

Of course these are overly simplistic scales and I am sure I am missing a lot of stuff.

[DBZ Macky]

• SSG: 2% of Beerus
• SSB: 4% of Beerus
• SSB KKx10: 40% of Beerus
• SSB KKx20: 80% of Beerus
• UI Omen: 100% of Beerus
• UI: 120% of Beerus

This makes perfect sense to me, and this is exactly how I'd scale it... until you throw in Gogeta into the equation.

If Base Gogeta = 2% of Beerus, then SS3 Gogeta would be 8x as strong as Beerus, and SSG & SSB Gogeta would be much higher.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Easy solution to the Gogeta debate above.

Ikari Broly turns Super Saiyan and gains the boost of Super Saiyan on top of the form which was already equal to SSB.

Gogeta turns Super Saiyan and is equal to Super Saiyan Broly.

Ergo, Gogeta's base form is equal to SSB. Simple as that. Of course, there's also plenty of other supporting evidence like Gogeta blocking A LOT of blasts from Broly like SSB Goku AND was still flying away instead of being rooted to one spot like Goku was. Gogeta was also simply outpacing Broly just as well if not better than Goku and Vegeta.

Something else to bear in mind is that Goku and Vegeta only traded blows with Broly when they fought together; neither of them fought him alone when he became a Super Saiyan.

[Grand Marshal 1]

• SSG: 2% of Beerus
• SSB: 4% of Beerus
• SSB KKx10: 40% of Beerus
• SSB KKx20: 80% of Beerus
• UI Omen: 100% of Beerus
• UI: 120% of Beerus

This makes perfect sense to me, and this is exactly how I'd scale it... until you throw in Gogeta into the equation.

If Base Gogeta = 2% of Beerus, then SS3 Gogeta would be 8x as strong as Beerus, and SSG & SSB Gogeta would be much higher.

My answer to those 'roadblocks' is that we must forget set multipliers. If you remove that and think that each form is as strong as it needs to be by the plot, it's OK imo.

We can see for example someone fighting God Vegeta and pushing him back, but an equal in Base SS3 Goku lands more blows. In that instance SS3 would be very near God. Is it inconsistent? Yes. Isn't the whole scaling already inconsistent tho?

[emperior]

• SSG: 2% of Beerus
• SSB: 4% of Beerus
• SSB KKx10: 40% of Beerus
• SSB KKx20: 80% of Beerus
• UI Omen: 100% of Beerus
• UI: 120% of Beerus

This makes perfect sense to me, and this is exactly how I'd scale it... until you throw in Gogeta into the equation.

If Base Gogeta = 2% of Beerus, then SS3 Gogeta would be 8x as strong as Beerus, and SSG & SSB Gogeta would be much higher.

I assume you go by base Gogeta’s performance in Broly? I wouldn’t consider that indicative of Gogeta being necessarily SSG level in his base, as he just dodged some attacks which isn’t too far off from base Goku’s performance against rage Broly, and SSG Goku is actually weaker than rage Broly.

But, even if we consider base Gogeta to be stronger than SSG, then I would say that his Super Saiyan form is actually not a 50x increase but much lower (I would say 10x), and same for other power-ups. SSG is actually a bit lower than 10x Super Saiyan, maybe only 5x, as Base Broly was SS1 level and Rage Broly, which is 10x, was actually stronger than SSG Goku and Vegeta. I would say around 2 times stronger wouldn’t be too far off from the truth, considering he tanked a punch by Vegeta and completely destroyed SSG Goku.
And in my scale Blue is only 2x SSG, in fact Blue Goku and Rage Broly were around the same level.

If I had to include Gogeta in the scale, he would be:
• Base: 5% Beerus
• Super Saiyan: 50% Beerus
• God: 250% Beerus
• Blue: 500% Beerus

Blue Gogeta would be actually 5 times stronger than Beerus. Which could be possible, and explain why he completely destroyed Broly without even getting touched once.

As for Broly, he would be:
• Rage: 4% Beerus
• Super Saiyan: 40% Beerus (increased to 50% through fighting)
• Full Power: 100% Beerus and increasing

The only thing which would still make little sense is why Goku and Vegeta didn’t use respectively KKx10 and Blue Evolution, as those forms would be 40% of Beerus. Maybe they felt those forms wouldn’t have been enough or would have been to risky, or maybe they would have tried if they had senzu beans.

[miguelnuva1]

Gogeta was not forced to go Blue, he went Blue to make sure Broly couldn't keep up and to get the kill quick.

If you notice Broly punches him in full power and it doesn't hurt SS Gogeta.

[emperior]

Gogeta was not forced to go Blue, he went Blue to make sure Broly couldn't keep up and to get the kill quick.

If you notice Broly punches him in full power and it doesn't hurt SS Gogeta.

I went to rewatch the scene and Full Power Broly actually lands a gut punch on Gogeta which hurts him, and then throws him away. I will go by FP Broly being a 2x power-up which puts him at around Beerus’ levels of power.

I agree that Gogeta went Blue to end the fight quickly, because every other Super Saiyan form above 1 would have probably been enough to win.

[miguelnuva1]

Gogeta was not forced to go Blue, he went Blue to make sure Broly couldn't keep up and to get the kill quick.

If you notice Broly punches him in full power and it doesn't hurt SS Gogeta.

I went to rewatch the scene and Full Power Broly actually lands a gut punch on Gogeta which hurts him, and then throws him away. I will go by FP Broly being a 2x power-up which puts him at around Beerus’ levels of power.

I agree that Gogeta went Blue to end the fight quickly, because every other Super Saiyan form above 1 would have probably been enough to win.

You are correct, I forgot the first punch and only remembered him being pushed back and blocking the second punch.

Still think Blue was over killnhad Broly not being able to keep powering up.

[Miracles]

Gogeta was not forced to go Blue, he went Blue to make sure Broly couldn't keep up and to get the kill quick.

If you notice Broly punches him in full power and it doesn't hurt SS Gogeta.

Even when Gogeta went Blue the fight didn't end quickly. It took time and energy to subdue Broly.

[Grand Marshal 1]

God Gogeta may have had a chance, but he wouldn't get the job done. Broly peaked even above God Fusion tiers.

So Blue was needed and was a gap big enough to seem one-sided.

Like with Omega. SS3 Gogeta may not have been enough, but going SS4 was needed despite it seem like it wasn't.