The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Grand Marshal 1]

Isn't the scaling in SDBH like way higher than DBS tho? Pretty sure Cooler would kill Moro.

Base Cumber is SSB Vegito level... A much stronger version of Vegito than the one from the DBS manga who rivals Beerus. Cooler even in base could swap hands with SS3 Cumber although at a disadvantage. Base cooler should be GOD tier.

Golden Metal Cooler bodied Cumber which should far exceed Beerus. I don't see Current Moro being many times stronger than Beerus.

CC cast in Heroes is post-ToP.

Cumber is strong, but not as strong as people think.

Golden Great Ape Cumber was not enough for Vegito Blue.

SS3FP Cumber with Super Hearts and Halo Zamasu could not defeat Super Full Power Jiren (who shouldn't be stronger than his ToP counterpart).

Super Hearts and Cumber were defeated by Jiren, Hit and Golden Metal Cooler in the game.

So rly, he isn't much stronger. Cooler or Cumber for that matter.

That's actually wrong, hearts never powered up against jiren when fighting with cumber and zamasu, it was just base hearts.

And went hearts left cumber and zamasu vs jiren Jiren wasn't winning even against cumber and zamasu. And super hearts and cumber took on also Goku and Vegeta as well

I didn't have the dialogues handy, so thanks for the correction.

Either way, what I meant to say with all this is that Cumber and Cooler who scales to him, aren't beyond Blue Fusion. Hense my matching earlier.

[FishermanJohnWest]

Moro arc battles

- Current UI Omen Goku Vs ToP Jiren

- Post training Gohan Vs God aura Toppo (manga)

- Post Yardrat SSBE Vegeta Vs ToP Jiren

- Prime Moro (battle against UIO Goku) Vs SSJFP Broly (no absorption)

- Post training Piccolo Vs 17

Omen Goku easily defeats Jiren right now, considering that Omen Goku was performing feats better then MUI from the TOP

Gohan wins no problem, should be above CSSJB from the TOP

Vegeta wins easier then Omen Goku does since he is > Goku now

Depends whether you think Moro surpasses Beerus, if he does then he could beat Broly with his absorption

Probably 17

SS3 Dragon Fist from M13, who can it kill?
- Boohan ( Does nothing cause of regeneration)
- Zamasu (before he suscribed to Godtube) (does nothing since DBS characters are much stronger then Z)
- ToP SS2 Caulifla (anime and manga) (Does nothing)
- DBS base Broly (Does nothing)
- Majuub (Baby arc) (Does nothing)
- ToP 17 (manga) (Does nothing)

1st Omen Goku's last stand, the flying fist that Jiren blocked when Goku fell out of the form, who can it KO? how much damage it deals? for the stronger characters, pretend Goku shoots a KHH too.
- Black RoseBeats him
- Halo Zamasu (no immortality) (Beats him)
- ToP Hit Most likely beats him
- Super Hearts (the one that fought SSB Goku).Does nothing at all
- Empowered Saganbo Does nothing since he took hits from a far more powerful Omen and still kept fighting
- BoG Beerus Beats him
- ToP BeerusDoes nothing
- ToP SSBKKx20 Goku (yeah) Hurts him badly but doesn't beat him
- Broly movie Super Gogeta Does nothing at all
- SS4 Gogeta Probably beats him
- SS Kefla seriously hurts her like x 20 Kaioken

SSB Vegeta's Final Flash vs Jiren, vs:
- Black Rose
- RoF Golden Freeza
- SS4 Gogeta
- Merged Zamasu (no immortality)
- BoG Beerus
- Corrupted Zamasu (no immortality. The attack goes after Vegito defuses and Trunks fights him but before he does the sword thing)

Corrupted Zamasu survives but the rest die

[FishermanJohnWest]

Current UI Omen Goku vs Full Power Broly

Base Gotenks (Post-Rosat) vs Android 16

Base Vegito (Black arc) vs Android 17 (ToP anime)

SSJ1 Broly (DBS) vs SSJ2 Kefla

Base Gogeta (Early Android arc) vs Semi-Perfect Cell

Depends if you think Omen Goku surpasses Beerus, if he doesn't then he loses badly

Gotenks one-shots

Anime Vegito loses, Manga Vegito dominates

SSJ Broly one-shots Kefla

Semi perfect Cell wins

[Mad Swami]

Current UI Omen Goku vs Full Power Broly

Base Gotenks (Post-Rosat) vs Android 16

Base Vegito (Black arc) vs Android 17 (ToP anime)

SSJ1 Broly (DBS) vs SSJ2 Kefla

Base Gogeta (Early Android arc) vs Semi-Perfect Cell

Depends if you think Omen Goku surpasses Beerus, if he doesn't then he loses badly

Gotenks one-shots

Anime Vegito loses, Manga Vegito dominates

SSJ Broly one-shots Kefla

Semi perfect Cell wins

I agree with all of these except the Gotenks one. Personally, I think Android 16 wins with ease. I think Gotenks in base is as strong as like yardrat SSJ1 Goku

[dragonball0900]

I don't think 17 was SSB tier, given that it was stated by Piccolo that Gohan was the strongest fighter on Earth without Goku and Vegeta, and Gohan was still below MSSB tier (which means, not on Goku or Vegeta's level) as stated by Krillin in the ToP. That means Gohan was the strongest fighter without the two saiyans, and Android 17 should be much weaker than him in the manga, and that is shown by him and Piccolo holding their own much better against Saganbo than both androids after training (logically 17's power should also be higher in the Moro saga since he always gets stronger from fighting poachers), so I doubt 17 was intended to be that strong in the manga like he was in the anime (the anime, that has more power scaling issues than the manga). Not to mention that Goku can't sense 17's ki to gauge his strength properly. All he knows is that 17 can at least hold his own, which is why he made that statement, but that doesn't mean he was SSB tier.

Goku literally said 17 was almost as strong as them (Him and Vegeta) so there's no room for discussion.

Gohan is indeed stronger than 17 but both are Blue tier.

That only means he was strong enough to hold his own with them. That doesn't mean he was as strong. Otherwise, he would be stronger than Gohan, who was clearly confirmed to be weaker than Goku and Vegeta, yet later he was stated to be the strongest person on earth only without those two. 17 did nothing impressive to put him equal to Goku and Vegeta. He was only shown to be much stronger than Final Form Frieza in the tournament (Final Form Frieza, who in the manga was only U6 SSJ1 tier). He was still far weaker than Golden Frieza (aka, Goku and Vegeta's other equal) during the fight with Jiren.

We shouldn't overrate manga 17 that much since this is not the anime where 17 did impressive feats. Him being surpassed by Piccolo is proof enough that 17 was never intended to be as strong as Blue in the manga.

[ZombieVito]

That only means he was strong enough to hold his own with them. That doesn't mean he was as strong. Otherwise, he would be stronger than Gohan, who was clearly confirmed to be weaker than Goku and Vegeta, yet later he was stated to be the strongest person on earth only without those two. 17 did nothing impressive to put him equal to Goku and Vegeta. He was only shown to be much stronger than Final Form Frieza in the tournament (Final Form Frieza, who in the manga was only U6 SSJ1 tier). He was still far weaker than Golden Frieza (aka, Goku and Vegeta's other equal) during the fight with Jiren.

We shouldn't overrate manga 17 that much since this is not the anime where 17 did impressive feats. Him being surpassed by Piccolo is proof enough that 17 was never intended to be as strong as Blue in the manga.

Why would 17 being in Blue tier make him stronger than Gohan? You aren't making any sense.

Goku = Freeza = Vegeta > Gohan > 17 is correct and it's also correct that all 5 of them are Blue tier.

[dragonball0900]

That only means he was strong enough to hold his own with them. That doesn't mean he was as strong. Otherwise, he would be stronger than Gohan, who was clearly confirmed to be weaker than Goku and Vegeta, yet later he was stated to be the strongest person on earth only without those two. 17 did nothing impressive to put him equal to Goku and Vegeta. He was only shown to be much stronger than Final Form Frieza in the tournament (Final Form Frieza, who in the manga was only U6 SSJ1 tier). He was still far weaker than Golden Frieza (aka, Goku and Vegeta's other equal) during the fight with Jiren.

We shouldn't overrate manga 17 that much since this is not the anime where 17 did impressive feats. Him being surpassed by Piccolo is proof enough that 17 was never intended to be as strong as Blue in the manga.

Why would 17 being in Blue tier make him stronger than Gohan? You aren't making any sense.

Goku = Freeza = Vegeta > Gohan > 17 is correct and it's also correct that all 5 of them are Blue tier.

Because you tried to agree with Goku's statement that "17 = him, Vegeta and Frieza", even though that is clearly not the case since Gohan is weaker than them, and he is supposed to be much stronger than 17 as stated and shown in the Moro Saga.

All 17 did are feats that put him above Final Form Frieza/SSJ3 Goku, but nothing else. He did nothing that puts him at blue tier in the slightest like it happened in the anime. The Moro Saga proves he was nothing special in the end. All he had was enough strength that made him hold his own, plus infinite energy, but that's it. He was even out of action for nearly the whole Jiren fight. It wasn't like in the anime when 17 directly fought Jiren a lot alongside Goku and Vegeta. 17 being weaker than Gohan here shows that Goku's "he's as strong as us" statement is false.

[ZombieVito]

Because you tried to agree with Goku's statement that "17 = him, Vegeta and Frieza", even though that is clearly not the case since Gohan is weaker than them, and he is supposed to be much stronger than 17 as stated and shown in the Moro Saga.

All 17 did are feats that put him above Final Form Frieza/SSJ3 Goku, but nothing else. He did nothing that puts him at blue tier in the slightest like it happened in the anime. The Moro Saga proves he was nothing special in the end. All he had was enough strength that made him hold his own, plus infinite energy, but that's it. He was even out of action for nearly the whole Jiren fight. It wasn't like in the anime when 17 directly fought Jiren a lot alongside Goku and Vegeta. 17 being weaker than Gohan here shows that Goku's "he's as strong as us" statement is false.

What the hell are you talking about? I never said 17 was equal to those 3.

Being on the same tier doesn't mean they have to be equal. That's nonsense.

[dragonball0900]

Because you tried to agree with Goku's statement that "17 = him, Vegeta and Frieza", even though that is clearly not the case since Gohan is weaker than them, and he is supposed to be much stronger than 17 as stated and shown in the Moro Saga.

All 17 did are feats that put him above Final Form Frieza/SSJ3 Goku, but nothing else. He did nothing that puts him at blue tier in the slightest like it happened in the anime. The Moro Saga proves he was nothing special in the end. All he had was enough strength that made him hold his own, plus infinite energy, but that's it. He was even out of action for nearly the whole Jiren fight. It wasn't like in the anime when 17 directly fought Jiren a lot alongside Goku and Vegeta. 17 being weaker than Gohan here shows that Goku's "he's as strong as us" statement is false.

What the hell are you talking about? I never said 17 was equal to those 3.

Being on the same tier doesn't mean they have to be equal. That's nonsense.

Goku directly said: "He's as strong as us."

He's obviously referring to him Vegeta and Frieza (the ones that lasted until the end). But that statement is innacurate since Gohan is not stronger than those three, yet he is stated to be the strongest without taking into account those three, hands down. 17 is just not as strong as Gohan, who is not as strong as MSSB level Goku, Vegeta and Frieza. He never had any feats that put him at blue level. And now in the Moro Saga we have proof that Piccolo was able to surpass 17 in just 2 months, which shows again that 17 was nothing in the manga compared to his anime version (the anime in which one of the writers literally said 17 = Gohan, yet in the manga it's 17 < Gohan).

At best (and that's being generous), 17 should be SSG level, but I wouldn't put him any higher based on the lack of feats 17 had in the manga, and the controversial statements and other feats that surround it.

[ZombieVito]

Goku directly said: "He's as strong as us."

He's obviously referring to him Vegeta and Frieza (the ones that lasted until the end). But that statement is innacurate since Gohan is not stronger than those three, yet he is stated to be the strongest without taking into account those three, hands down. 17 is just not as strong as Gohan, who is not as strong as MSSB level Goku, Vegeta and Frieza. He never had any feats that put him at blue level. And now in the Moro Saga we have proof that Piccolo was able to surpass 17 in just 2 months, which shows again that 17 was nothing in the manga compared to his anime version (the anime in which one of the writers literally said 17 = Gohan, yet in the manga it's 17 < Gohan).

At best (and that's being generous), 17 should be SSG level, but I wouldn't put him any higher based on the lack of feats 17 had in the manga, and the controversial statements and other feats that surround it.

No, he said about as strong as us. This doesn't mean equal.

What part of 17 can be on the same tier and still be weaker than them don't you understand? Christ.

Also there's no statement at all that Piccolo has surpassed 17. Nothing. Nada.

[dragonball0900]

Goku directly said: "He's as strong as us."

He's obviously referring to him Vegeta and Frieza (the ones that lasted until the end). But that statement is innacurate since Gohan is not stronger than those three, yet he is stated to be the strongest without taking into account those three, hands down. 17 is just not as strong as Gohan, who is not as strong as MSSB level Goku, Vegeta and Frieza. He never had any feats that put him at blue level. And now in the Moro Saga we have proof that Piccolo was able to surpass 17 in just 2 months, which shows again that 17 was nothing in the manga compared to his anime version (the anime in which one of the writers literally said 17 = Gohan, yet in the manga it's 17 < Gohan).

At best (and that's being generous), 17 should be SSG level, but I wouldn't put him any higher based on the lack of feats 17 had in the manga, and the controversial statements and other feats that surround it.

No, he said about as strong as us. This doesn't mean equal.

What part of 17 can be on the same tier and still be weaker than them don't you understand? Christ.

Also there's no statement at all that Piccolo has surpassed 17. Nothing. Nada.

"About as strong as" literally means being pretty damn close in strength. 17 is not even close to their strength in the manga, being firmly stated to be far below Gohan throughout Toyotaro's manga. Again, 17 showed NO feats that put him at blue tier.

(Spoiler Alert) All the showings Piccolo did flat out prove that he is now above 17. Piccolo took lots of hits from Moro and still kept going, with Gohan being the ONLY one (aside from the obvious Goku and Vegeta) performing better than him. Meanwhile 17 (and 18) got stupidly one shooted, aka being knocked out in one hit. Goku also said BOTH him and Gohan are barely recognizable from the ToP, which means Toyotaro clearly meant for them to be the ones that got massive increases in power aside from Goku and Vegeta. 17's showings were barely impressive in this current saga, and they pale in comparison to everything Piccolo did, against Saganbo and against Moro.

Moro Saga Piccolo would clearly beat 17 easily.

[ZombieVito]

"About as strong as" literally means being pretty damn close in strength. 17 is not even close to their strength in the manga, being firmly stated to be far below Gohan throughout Toyotaro's manga. Again, 17 showed NO feats that put him at blue tier.

(Spoiler Alert) All the showings Piccolo did flat out prove that he is now above 17. Piccolo took lots of hits from Moro and still kept going, with Gohan being the ONLY one (aside from the obvious Goku and Vegeta) performing better than him. Meanwhile 17 (and 18) got stupidly one shooted, aka being knocked out in one hit. Goku also said BOTH him and Gohan are barely recognizable from the ToP, which means Toyotaro clearly meant for them to be the ones that got massive increases in power aside from Goku and Vegeta. 17's showings were barely impressive in this current saga, and they pale in comparison to everything Piccolo did, against Saganbo and against Moro.

Moro Saga Piccolo would clearly beat 17 easily.

17 can be weaker than Gohan and still be on the same tier as Goku and the others. I'm completely baffled you don't get this.

Also:

Moro. Doesn't. Want. To. Kill. Them.

[dragonball0900]

"About as strong as" literally means being pretty damn close in strength. 17 is not even close to their strength in the manga, being firmly stated to be far below Gohan throughout Toyotaro's manga. Again, 17 showed NO feats that put him at blue tier.

(Spoiler Alert) All the showings Piccolo did flat out prove that he is now above 17. Piccolo took lots of hits from Moro and still kept going, with Gohan being the ONLY one (aside from the obvious Goku and Vegeta) performing better than him. Meanwhile 17 (and 18) got stupidly one shooted, aka being knocked out in one hit. Goku also said BOTH him and Gohan are barely recognizable from the ToP, which means Toyotaro clearly meant for them to be the ones that got massive increases in power aside from Goku and Vegeta. 17's showings were barely impressive in this current saga, and they pale in comparison to everything Piccolo did, against Saganbo and against Moro.

Moro Saga Piccolo would clearly beat 17 easily.

17 can be weaker than Gohan and still be on the same tier as Goku and the others. I'm completely baffled you don't get this.

Also:

Moro. Doesn't. Want. To. Kill. Them.

And I repeat, 17 has no feats that put him anywhere near them in the manga. There's nothing that shows his blue tier like Gohan or the others. Why did Piccolo still said Gohan was the strongest on earth without Goku and Vegeta (before the two months even started) if 17 (assuming we follow your logic and that he is not that much different from blue tier fighters) could have easily being a lot of help and worth from Piccolo mentioning him? If 17 was that strong, he would surely have been mentioned at all (like they would've been wondering where 17 is). But instead, they ignored him entirely as if he was not going to do anything worthy against their threat.

And you really have to check this two recent chapters. Piccolo outperformed 17 in every way possible. We CLEARLY see who did better than who against Moro and who we can gauge in terms of strength: Goku and Vegeta did the best out of everyone, then Gohan performed worse, Piccolo performed even worse, and 17 and 18 were treated as the fodders of the fight, basically being one shooted and staying in the sidelines every time they try to fight against anyone. "Moro doesn't want to kill them" is just an excuse for trying to interpret things in a different context from what the story is actually trying to tell us. Of course he doesn't want to kill them, but based on how each of them performed against Moro, it's blantantly clear what is the power hierachy now.

Why is it a problem that Piccolo surpassed 17? Why is 17 that overrated in terms of strength around here? His power increase never made that sense to begin with, yet people barely complain about it. But now that Piccolo (who is known to make big increases before like in the Android Saga) also has a similar power increase, people here refuse to accept that he could have easily surpassed 17 in the Moro Saga? Specially based on all the feats and showings we are directly and blatantly shown throughout this and the previous chapters? There's no need to twist what the story is trying to show and tell. Piccolo surpassed 17, and this new chapter from today clearly acknowledged it.

[ZombieVito]

And I repeat, 17 has no feats that put him anywhere near them in the manga. There's nothing that shows his blue tier like Gohan or the others. Why did Piccolo still said Gohan was the strongest on earth without Goku and Vegeta (before the two months even started) if 17 (assuming we follow your logic and that he is not that much different from blue tier fighters) could have easily being a lot of help and worth from Piccolo mentioning him? If 17 was that strong, he would surely have been mentioned at all (like they would've been wondering where 17 is). But instead, they ignored him entirely as if he was not going to do anything worthy against their threat.

Goku literally said he was Blue tier and no one contradicted him, my fucking god.

Piccolo mentioning Gohan was the strongest on the planet doesn't mean 17 is not on his same tier.

Goku was the strongest on Earth when Raditz arrived and he was only 8 points higher than Piccolo. They both were on the same tier. Just like Gohan and 17 where then.

[dragonball0900]

And I repeat, 17 has no feats that put him anywhere near them in the manga. There's nothing that shows his blue tier like Gohan or the others. Why did Piccolo still said Gohan was the strongest on earth without Goku and Vegeta (before the two months even started) if 17 (assuming we follow your logic and that he is not that much different from blue tier fighters) could have easily being a lot of help and worth from Piccolo mentioning him? If 17 was that strong, he would surely have been mentioned at all (like they would've been wondering where 17 is). But instead, they ignored him entirely as if he was not going to do anything worthy against their threat.

Goku literally said he was Blue tier and no one contradicted him, my fucking god.

Piccolo mentioning Gohan was the strongest on the planet doesn't mean 17 is not on his same tier.

Goku was the strongest on Earth when Raditz arrived and he was only 8 points higher than Piccolo. They both were on the same tier. Just like Gohan and 17 where then.

Yet Goku and Piccolo were still considered and directly stated and shown to be on the same tier against Raditz. Something that can't easily be said for Gohan and 17 in the manga. Plus Piccolo was evil at the time, obviously they wouldn't consider him.

Again, Goku's statement contradicts what happens BOTH before and after he said that statement, since so far 17 has shown nothing that supports him being that strong, not even in the ToP itself (where, unlike the anime, 17 was mostly hidding while Goku and Vegeta, and Frieza at points, were doing all the work). He was not considered when Moro's goons arrived on Earth before the two months happened, and is now easily one shooted and dominated by both Saganbo and Moro far worse than Piccolo, who really did far better showings against both of them.

[GatoF]

Is really hard to know how strong Piccolo is right now, is he ss3 tier? ssg? low ssb? could he really match 17? Even though moro was toying with everyone Piccolo performed better than 17.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Is really hard to know how strong Piccolo is right now, is he ss3 tier? ssg? low ssb? could he really match 17? Even though moro was toying with everyone Piccolo performed better than 17.

No one should be near what God Vegeta showcased in the beginning of the arc, even post-Training imo. Shouldn't. Not saying that if I scale it they are.

[p-hyvo]

Is really hard to know how strong Piccolo is right now, is he ss3 tier? ssg? low ssb? could he really match 17? Even though moro was toying with everyone Piccolo performed better than 17.

Piccolo Is undeniably low ssb tier now. Who says he isn't need do re-read everything

Current ssb Goku>>gohan>piccolo >>17= ToP ssb tier

[Berserker1921]

New Fights
Hypothetical anime 7/3 Moro runs the gauntlet. Can’t absorb his opponents energy and can’t copy their powers.

1. Merged Zamasu (no immortality)
2. SSj 2 Kefla
3. GoD Toppo
4. SsjB Vegito (Black)
5. FP Broly
6. SsjB Gogeta (Broly)
7. LB Jiren
8. MUI Goku (ToP, will last for the whole fight)
How long does he last for?

Bonus Round

7/3 Moro vs all GoDs, at once? Can he win? Moro can use all his abilities at his disposal

[Koitsukai]

New Fights
Hypothetical anime 7/3 Moro runs the gauntlet. Can’t absorb his opponents energy and can’t copy their powers.

1. Merged Zamasu (no immortality)
2. SSj 2 Kefla
3. GoD Toppo
4. SsjB Vegito (Black)
5. FP Broly
6. SsjB Gogeta (Broly)
7. LB Jiren
8. MUI Goku (ToP, will last for the whole fight)
How long does he last for?

Bonus Round

7/3 Moro vs all GoDs, at once? Can he win? Moro can use all his abilities at his disposal

I still don't fully understand Moro's power up, is he elder Moro + 7-3(FP Moro) like it was hinted last month or is FP Moro + 7-3 like they said this month? also don't know how strong 7-3 is suppose to be considering he was only seen using copied powers. Anyway, stronger than before, and he was already toying with Omen and SSBE who must be damn fucking close to Beerus.


1- Kills Zamasu easily.
2- Kefla should be helpless
3- Toppo lost to SSBE Vegeta, dies vs Moro.
4- I see Vegito Blue lasting a bit longer than Toppo and Kefla. Based on how fast blue consumes the potara, he lasts even less.
5- I would say goat Moro was dead even with Broly and in this form clearly takes the win.

6- Here I start seeing trouble for Moro. Gogeta was schooling Broly, so I think Moro needs a neck to defeat Gogeta, at best he should be even.
7- I can see this Moro getting Jiren to the limit and survive it somehow.
8- Considering the fact that MUI might even be a thing and could possibly not be enough (because of stamina loss, time limit, not strong enough, whatever) or perhaps could actually do the trick, then I'm thinking ToP MUI would not be enough. MUI would have to treat Moro like a bitch for ToP MUI to also be above him, Goku got a lot stronger in this arc.



Bonus round: Moro dies immediately. 12 GoDs vs 1, I don't think even Whis could do that.